[sheltwon3Participant]

Babbitt is already looking like a better pick than Haywood but Haywood because of hype got draft earlier just to become a role player.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Summer league…. where Sheltwons Legends are Born?

[sammybuckeye13Participant]

who’s Haywood?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Haywood is a Summer league Legend… or fable… or mystery guy.

[McDunkin]

i think he meant gordon haywards sisters twin brother

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

You don’t think Babbitt is going to be a role player as well? I know you’ve been waiting for a moment to somehow diss HAYWARD, but they’re two different players to be honest.

Babbitt looked good today, but I thought Hayward looked good as well.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Do you mean Haywood Jablowme?

[JNixonParticipant]

^LOL, that was corny. But oh so funny

[knicksfan7Participant]

Sheltwon get the name right if you’re going to diss someone out. Babbitt is more NBA ready right now, but picks aren’t judged until 3-5 years after the pick has been made. I think Hayward will be a solid pro.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@JNixon-Iggy9

Based on what you saw in Hayward and Babbitt, what’s your input on this?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

yea… I know, sorry. I couldn’t help myself.

[bobforteParticipant]

Babbitt prb does have more upside, but realize budinger was playing defense on him and Babbitt didnt look extreamly quick against him. THink about the other guys around the league and Hayward will be fine. He didnt get any minutes and was efficient when he did.

[kanyedabestParticipant]

brendan haywood?? like cmon man get your shit 2gether

[JNixonParticipant]

Both take what the D gives them, and both are shooters. I’ve only seen Babbitt play this 1 time in SL, but he played good (even though it was on a mediocre/below average defender in Chase Budinger). Hayward was average in the games I watched. I’d say it’s a push as to who’s better right now. Both are the same level player IMO.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

It’s summer league… they could both rotation players or better. But you won’t find out in summer ball. You don’t expect the 76ers to get rid of Evan Turner because he’s struggling in summer ball right now, do you? It’s like intramural ball.

[sheltwon3Participant]

my bad lol

[B-ball fanParticipant]

Babbitt can score. He has a great feel for the game. I wonder how his midrange game will translate to the NBA, since he won’t be able to create separation as easily as he did in college. He also isn’t very quick. He will struggle on defense. He looks like he has a good B-ball IQ, so he should improve.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I dont discount what Iggy said but neither was worth a lottery pick but one guy went lottery and the other got drafted at a decent position for his skill level. Hayward does not have the upside that yall see. If that is the case anybody has upside that play basketball because you can always shoot better and play harder and learn more about basketball.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

He tested a lot better than Hayward as an athlete, but I don’t see that from him on the court.

Based on this one game, Hayward looks like a better athlete.

[knicksfan7Participant]

Sheltwon what is your definition of upside??? I am interested in knowing.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Knicksfan since i have more faith in your team than you do, I would watch my mouth that is all.

I noticed you try to put your two cents in anything against me.

Yall knew who i was talking bout so why try to trip but really Hayward is not that important to me to remember how to spell his name.

Knicksfan Andy Rautins to me may be better than Hayward in 3 years.

I don’t know who yall think this guy is.

The development phase thing tends to be about guys who dont know how to play and are just athletes. It does not normally apply to guys who are said to have high basketball IQ and limited athleticism.

Hayward is not going to turn his athleticism from what he is to Michael Jordan anytime soon.

He doesnt show in games the athleticism that he apparently has if you go by combine numbers.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I thought Gordon Hayward was pretty athletic.

Didn’t he have good results in the combine?

[sheltwon3Participant]

upside is how great can you be

we tend to base it on what a player can do now and what they could possibly do if they max out all of their God give talents and skills.

There is also a realistic view of this since most people do not every reach their max.

What do you guys see as Hayward’s max.

I agree they will both be role players but Babbitt who is close to Hayward in age is ready now and has enough upside to continue to be better than Hayward. Hayward does move quicker than Babbitt but he does not use this to his advantage. Babbitt is strong enough to be a little slower because if he can deceive his defender, he can bump them and get his shot off something I don’t see Hayward doing right now.

I noticed how Butler tried to turn Iggy against me since He is respected for his basketball.

I respect his basketball knowledge too

So iggy if you were drafted in the pass draft based on what you knew before hand and not with summer league where would you have drafted Hayward and also where would you have drafted Babbitt?

[knicksfan7Participant]

Sheltwon I am not going to start a pissing match with you, but can you please find somewhere where I have said something where I did not have faith in my team?? Also this may be the 2nd time I have went against you, but that’s irrelevant Also, everything else you said about Hayward just now makes no sense, and you didn’t answer my question. Thanks.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Huh? I didn’t try to turn anyone against you… I asked him for his opinion because he’s the scout guru on the site. You’re making too much of this my man…

[sheltwon3Participant]

You can tell a lot about a player from summer league. I would not say it is a tell all but you can get stuff from summer league. It is not all about stats. I know this but there are things you can look at that will tell you about a player’s game.

[knicksfan7Participant]

Hayward is much more versatile than Babbitt. Babbitt is a combo forward while Hayward is a swingman who can occasionally run the point. Hayward is only 19, and his body hasn’t filled out let him development before anything is said. I am high on both players, but the two players are totally different in my mind.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I did not give you the answer you wanted but I answered the question so maybe if you want a different answer rephrase it.

Also maybe I am wrong about this being more than once because it would appear that they are a lot knicksfans around and it is hard to keep track of you guys.

I never said you lost faith in your team.

Where did I say that.

It is funny how you guys read stuff into something I said that was not said.

If i wanted to say that to you I would say it outright.

[sheltwon3Participant]

How old is Babbit there Knickfans and saying one player is more versatile when they both can play two position does not add up.

Just because Hayward is a decent passer does not make him an NBA level playmaker. What game did he have more than 5 assists.

point guards have to do more than just pass and also the good ones know when to pass or shoot and dont seem hesitant to make that decision.

[knicksfan7Participant]

Knicksfan since i have more faith in your team than you do, I would watch my mouth that is all.–sheltwon3

You said that about me. So next time you should rephrase what you said, or not say it. Either way I am done over this.

[llperez]

I didnt see todays game, but i watched like 3 or 4 of the orlando summer games and i’ll be honest, i wasnt too impressed with hayward. Not that i dont think he could be very good becasue i thought all along it would take him a year or two and his athletiticism isnt exactly a weakness, but right now he seems like a guy who is really gonna have to rely on his teammates to get him involved.

[knicksfan7Participant]

Sheltwon, Hayward is a little less than a year younger than babbitt, but Hayward does not have an NBA Body yet but you look at his frame he will grow bigger that is a big reason why Hayward has a nice amount of upside.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Knicksfan since i have more faith in your team than you do, I would watch my mouth that is all.–sheltwon3

where does this say that you have lost faith in the Knicks

[knicksfan7Participant]

Make it more clear next time considering my user name is knicksfan7. A lot of times in posts ppl respond to me by saying Knicksfan.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@llperez

Other than Terrence Williams, Jrue Holiday and Lance Stephenson… I wasn’t THAT impressed with anybody in Orlando. That goes for Evan Turner and Derrick Favors as well. I thought Damion James was the best rookie on the Nets. Harangody played better than Evan Turner lol. It’s just summer league.

Steve Smith and Dennis Scott, two NBA guys who were up close, had good things to say about Hayward. The only negative was that he needs to be more aggressive and is too unselfish/patient.

Hayward didn’t blow me away, but I saw plenty of positives that let me know he’s going to be a good player for the Jazz.

[llperez]

true butler

[sheltwon3Participant]

lilperez I agree and I never said he lacked athleticism but he does not have elite athleticism so if he knows the game what is taking him so long and if gains too much weight he may not be as athletic as he is. Some people can not gain weight and keep their athleticism. He could wind up just as quick or lack of as Babbitt would added weight. I don’t see him getting Babbitt’s size though and Babbitt is not that big.

Also Babbitt is 21 and born on 6/20

and Hayward is 20 and born on 3/23

That is less than a year difference but in a years time we will revisit this and we will see who is right

[knicksfan7Participant]

It is more than a year to say who is better to me it takes anywhere from 3-5 years to say how a pick truly develops. 3 years is enough though.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I was impressed with Favors and when he finally got touches with selfish Damion James gone who I am a fan of and thought he should got first round. I live in Texas and I like his game but he was selfish. Favors looked good when he got touches but played like a scrub when he didnt.

Evan Turner did not play well but I am sure once he gets used to what Philly is doing, he should be alright but he went to the wrong team, He would have been a better fit in Minny

Kahn sucks continues

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Babbitt doesn’t have elite athleticism either.

IF you look at both Hayward and Babbitt, they’re not that much different body wise. Babbitt is just an inch taller and longer. I actually think Hayward’s body, NBA wise, looks better than Babbitt’s.

Hayward is about 10 lbs from his NBA weight. I mean, he’s 211 lbs right now. All he needs to do is get stronger. You have to remember that unlike Babbitt, he hasn’t always been tall. Hayward had a large growth spurt late and is still growing into his body. Hayward is very much of a late bloomer, so I don’t see how or why you don’t think he can get better.

Anyway… Time will tell which one of these guys turns out to be the best role player lol.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Knicksfan I know it take more than a year but to see where Hayward is in a year. That actually work better for you because the biggest single jump a player tend to do is between first and second year. Hayward by default should be a better player than Babbitt is right now. I am saying we can revisit it but like you said it will probably not mean much.

In 3 years you guys will forget you said all this stuff about Hayward and jump on the next guy you think is so great.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I never said Babbitt at all has elite athleticism and Hayward will need to be good soon or he will not be in the league long enough to prove your point that he is still learning his body. He should have stayed in school.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

You don’t know enough about Kahn to have an informed oppinion on the subject… I suppose that is why you had the short/simple statement on the subject.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@sheltwon3

I become more convinced with every post you make that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Guys this is just the Summer League..Remember when Kwame played so well in summer league, folks were proclaiming him the 2nd coming of Garnett? LMAO!!!
Last year Wesley Matthews didnt play that well there.The Jazz invited him to training camp based on the great defensive skills he displayed…
Babbitt is more ready to contribute than Hayward…Hayward seems like a system player..Plus he has been acting timid..Utah might play might at the point during some moments of the game..Look for Babbitt to average about 10 to 13 points if he get the minutes..While Hayward might score about 7 or 8 points a game..But i think in the long run Hayward will have the better career..

[sheltwon3Participant]

Rudeboy you think he was worth a top 10 pick though

@ Butler at one point do you think I care lol

Norsemen if you think Kahn is doing at great job, you are in a small group

If you are related to Kahn, I apologize but your relative is terrible as a general manager. They may not be his gift and he needs to move on to something he is actually good at.

[kanyedabestParticipant]

hayward has been like a lost lil puppy out there at times……nd this is against D-LEAGUE talent so what will he look like against nba players…..

[kanyedabestParticipant]

also kahn is a fuc-kin moron folks hello……b-easy trade was solid but this is a guy trying to trade there best player AJ

[butidonthavemoney]

I don’t know what you guys are talking about.

Hayward played just like I expected him to. Like a role player.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Sheltwon..yeah Hayward should’ve been a top 15 pick..He has the talent to be a star in this league..He seems to have the same thing that Mike Miller
has and thats playing too passive and trying to be a great teammate..Hayward needs to adapt that i’m the best play on the court mentality….

[apb540Participant]

If you judge players on Summer League then you are prolly the same person who decides rotations on Spring Training.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

It’s to early to tell if Kahn sucks… he might… he might not. Until the latest collection of players play together you can’t possibly know. What is obvious is that the talent level has increased tremendously since Kahn took over with the addition of W. Johnson, Pekovic, Webster, Beasley. Trading Jefferson isn’t a done deal yet…. if it happens it will be to give the team flexibility for now and the next few seasons. You know these things of course because you are probably well versed in most everything in the universe and you couldn’t possibly be talking about something you know little about.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@1V Norsemen

I don’t know about Kahn lol. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he doesn’t seem like he knows what he’s doing.

He may have a plan, but the real question is will he be around long enough to see it come to fruition?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

We had McHale tearing the place up for 10 yrs. Kahn might not be conventional but you can’t argue that he’s puting pieces in place. While we’ll have to see if the pieces can fit together… I’m reserving judgement until I see what happens with Al Jefferson and how our future capspace looks. I know it’s just pieces right now, but we didn’t even have that 1 yr ago. Add Rubio to a lot of talented, long, athletic players and the Wolves could be looking like the TrailBlazers of a few years ago.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Wow me and Butler agree on something lol

Hayward does not remind me of Mike Miller, Mike Miller came into the league as a great shooter and he won rookie of the year in a weak draft class but still he was pretty good scoring up until these past two years where he tried to just fit in and not shoot as much.

Also in this past draft, I would not have taken Miller Miller top 10 top 15 for sure though

[kanyedabestParticipant]

RUDEBOY1000 are you stupid???? how do you think hayward can be a star in the league???? he’s been a role player in summer league against D-LEAGUE talent…..and if you cant get it done in summer league how the hell you gonna get it done against guys like kobe nd melo??? like give me abreak

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@kanyedabest

It’s just summer league. Evan Turner was a role player in summer league as well… The same goes for Derrick Favors. Are they not going to be stars?

I don’t think Hayward will be a star, but you can’t base who’s going to be a star or not based off of summer league.

[PureshooterParticipant]

I like the versatility of Gordo. I only watched the first game, but he didn’t force anything, had some pretty impressive boards out of his area, and showed some good speed and finishing ability leading the break and picking off the pass for a dunk. He looked tentative, but I think he just needs some time to get comfortable. I think he could be a solid 14/5/5 guy with good intangibles a couple of seasons down the road.

[JNixonParticipant]

I do too. I think Hayward can be a 13 ppg 5 rpg and 3 apg player.

Babbitt? Maybe 12 ppg and 6 rpg.

[sheltwon3Participant]

At best Iggy you believe both to be role players so still you did not answer my question would you draft either one with a top 10 pick in this past draft.

[JNixonParticipant]

Nah, I wouldn’t have. I think the Jazz should’ve picked Cole Aldrich. Still, as much as I love the way Aldrich would’ve fit with Utah, I think Hayward will be more productive. They could’ve gotten a better fit at 9 than Hayward, yes, but Hayward at 9 isn’t all that bad. Small reach? Yes.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I can guarantee you that there will be 20 players in this draft better than Hayward that were drafted behind him.

20 may be a bit much but it will be closer to that

[JNixonParticipant]

When you find those 20, think about how they’d fit with Utah and Coach Sloan. Sloan is very picky about the players on his roster. Takes a certain type of player to fit in their system.

I do agree that Hayward is probably one of the 15-20 best prospects though.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Iggy this may be another Curry moment for you because I dont see it man

[knicksfan7Participant]

I probably would have taken Babbitt over Hayward, but Hayward fits Utah better. I agree with you sheltwon 20 is a bit of a reach, but I could see guys like James Anderson, Quincey Pondexter, Luke Babbitt, and a few others being better than Hayward.

[JNixonParticipant]

LOL, you can’t see what? I agreed with what you said. Stephen Curry moment?

You said maybe not 20 players were better, and I said “I agree he is probably one of the top 15-20 players in the draft.” What don’t you see exactly?

[sc0rebuckets11Participant]

role player is thrown around, i swear its like an insult. Not everyone can be a #1 option, let alone a superstar.

Everyone has their roles in the NBA.

While it is too early to tell, of course babbitt is gonna jump out more than hayward.. because he is, a better scorer. Hayward was drafter higher because he has more dimensions.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I am not throwing role player badly but with a top 10 pick in a draft with depth and talent in the front court position, no way I take Hayward this early. I wonder why Utah gave Raja Bell all that money. Unless it is a big man or a super athlete, you expect your top 10 pick to be close to ready to start and contribute.

Iggy I mentioned the Curry moment as saying it will be something that despite your great skills you overlook.

Maybe this will be another Sessions moment for me but I doubt it.

I will post the guys I think will be better than him but not right now

I have been busy if you may noticed it has been a like two days betweens posts.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Hayward was projected to go as high as the late lottery, so while being picked 9th was a bit of a reach, it’s not that big of a deal. I mean, all it takes is one team to fall in love and like a player.

He had great workouts. There weren’t too many mocks I read that didn’t have his stock rising throughout the workout process. He shot the ball well, while showing that he was a better defender and athlete than he’s been given credit for.

Utah worked out Aldrich, Davis, Patterson, George, Babbitt, and Henry… Hayward was the player they chose. They obviously feel he can be a good player for them, which I think he will.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Utah had not had good drafts so that does not bode well for this pick.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

The Utah Jazz have been hit and miss like any other organization.

They normally pick very late in the lottery or towards the end of the first round, where it’s even more of a crap shot.

[Author]

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