[boshjonesfordParticipant]

There from the Same draft class

Who is a better player, last year Lamarcus Aldrige would get the nod but this year Bargnani has steped up his game significantly (both offensively and definsively) … Aldrige on the other hand is still a better rebounder….

Who is a better player in your opinion

[Scottoant93Participant]

 I’m a huge bargs fan and he seems really good right now even has a chance of making an Allstar as a reserve but in all honesty I will give the nod to la just because he’s on a winning team. If they were both on avg teams I would pick bargs

[Malik-UniversalParticipant]

 aldridge easily 

[JoeWolf1]

 I still think Aldrige, but one thing I’ll give Bargnani is that he’s improved every year.  He’s only 26 and he has shown little signs of slowing down.  He’s never going to be a great rebounder or defender, but he’s upped his ppg every year and improved in other ways as well.  If he can finish the year shooting over 50% that’s huge in his development.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I say this with full knowledge of how well Bargnani is playing this season. It is not close, though. To me, it is still shocking that Bargnani can’t grab more rebounds than he does. Dwayne Casey gave him a goal of 2 per quarter. He is still at 6. If you averaged 1 rebound per 6 minutes, for a 7 footer, that sucks.

You could say all you want about LaMarcus’ rebounding, but he has averaged 7.5 for his career. Is he a great rebounder? No, but he is passable and much more so than Bargnani. He has much more awareness defensively and he even can stretch the floor offensively with a fantastic mid range game. He is not going to take many three pointers, but in the end, he will still average just as many points if not more than Bargnani (We will see how long Andrea averages 24 ppg. Aldridge is at 22, like the odds of him staying near there).

The final key is post game. Aldridge has learned to kill people on the inside, I still question Bargnani’s ability to do that against more physical competition. As leaders of each of their teams (yes, Bargnani is still quite obviously the Raptors best player until DeRozan steps up to the plate a little more so), Aldridge does a much better job. He is a guy who constantly battles the best bigs in the league and picks apart smaller match-ups.

I mean, for Christ’s sake, he is outrebounding Bargnani 2.8-0.2 on the offensive glass! Andrea is off to a strong start, though I will say his two wins are over Cleveland and an Amare’less Knicks, but the guy is not in the same league as Aldridge. At the time, I was cool with what Colangelo did, but Aldridge is the much better player and would have been the better pick, easily.

Also, if Bargnani finishes the year at 50%, I will be flat out shocked. If he is at 47, that will be a major development. The fact that he is shooting so well right now is encouraging, but the season just started and Bargnani is a guy that slows down with time. Happened last season, will not be surprised if it happened this season. He is improved and has killed it when I have watched him, but I do not think he has improved to the point of putting up these numbers consistently and will average out to a slight improvement.

[Scottoant93Participant]

 Even I agree with most your argument you can’t forget bargnani also has played against the magic and the mavs too and even though the Knicks didn’t have amare bars went off for 40 plus against him last year. I agree aldridge is the better player right now but not by a landslide Aldridge is just now starting to emerge he was just like bargs a few seasons ago he has now turned it on and is being more agressive so it’s not a landslide

[boshjonesfordParticipant]

I gotta disagree with the people who are sayings its "it not close" or Aldrige Easily wins…

Lets look at the Stats (i know stats arent everything but still)

AB           La M

24ppg      22.2 ppg  

6rpg           7.4 rpg (hes not that much better then bargs, consider that his minutes are higher)

36mpg      39mpg

.7bpg         1bpg (almost the same amount of blocks per game + ABs defense is good) 

the only reason we could consider Aldrige to be a better player is becase the stats above are a small sample size but if AB continues to play like this i would consider him to be better then Aldrige…his defense is pretty good (his only flaw is rebounding and Aldrige isnt that much better at rebounding) …..+ AB is much more durable health wise (rearly gets injured)   

[joecheck88Participant]

I don’t think it is a landslide but I don’t think it is as close as boshjonesford points out. That is only through a few games this year. Aldridge was great all last year and is continuing that. Not to mention he was very good on a playoff team for a few years.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Bargnani has been irrellivant up until this season, so I guess I will have to pay attention to him now.

Until then, it’s Lamarcus Aldridge easily, who looks like a top five power forward in basketball right now.

 

[chrismcg562Participant]

 Give AB two more weeks. By then he won’t be playing defense again, and he won’t be rebounding. A guy can’t be an all-star after hitting a hot streak and having six good games. 

 

[T-Dot-BallerParticipant]

 Bargnani

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

The only argument I think you have is based on that small sample size of games. Still, I did not see Andrea Bargnani anywhere near an All-NBA team last season and Aldridge (rightfully) made the 3rd team over Kevin Love, Blake Griffin and Chris Bosh. Those are All-Star big men that Aldridge is near the same level as. Putting Bargnani on that level after his 6 game start?

Here are things that are not true or I just flat out do not believe are true:

• Durability: Andrea Bargnani is NOT more durable than LaMarcus Aldridge. At the very least, he has not been. LA played 81 games last season to Bargnani’s 66. He has played 384 to Bargnani’s 373 for their careers. In fact, after his rookie year, LA has played in 76 or more games every season.
• Rebounding: If you think that Bargnani is even comparable to Aldridge in this category, you are not looking hard enough. Bargnani has averaged 4.9 for his career and Aldridge is at 7.5. Even at their current juncture, Bargnani is averaging a rebound for every 6 minutes. Aldridge is one every 5.2. That matters. Want to know the biggest difference?
• Offensive Rebounding. Aldridge is one of the NBA’s best at this category, averaging 2.8 orpg (Was at 3.4 last season). Bargnani? 1. No, that is not how many he is averaging per game. That is how many he has through 6 games. 1! He is averaging 0.2 orpg. He is 7 feet tall. I know he is a diverse offensive player who tends to play away from the basket. Still, that is a shocking statistic. LA is not the only reason the Blazers are one of the leagues better rebounding teams, but he is a major reason they are one of the better offensive rebounding teams. Can’t say the same for Andrea.

Guys, I told you I was impressed with the way Bargnani has started out. But, I believe in the law of averages. Consistency tends to be a factor and it is not every season where a guy goes from 45% shooting to 55%. Through 6 games? Definitely can happen, but he still has 60 more left! I bring you to the case of Chris Bosh in his final year as a Raptor. The team was 3-3 and he averaged 28.5 ppg over his first 6 games (27.7 over his first 10). He finished the year averaging a solid 24 ppg. He was improved, more efficient, but he was not the kind of player who was going to improve his past years average by 4-5 points.

Even if Bargnani keeps this up, the Raptors would have to keep winning for me to see him as being on Aldridge’s level. Aldridge is a guy who competes with the leagues best PF’s, he has led a team to the play-offs and played better than anyone else against Dirk Nowitzki last season. Yes, Andrea has played pretty well against Dirk also, but not the same stakes and I still think it is crazy to put him in the class of the best PF’s in the league, which is a class Aldridge has joined.

I have seen a lot of Bargnani and I have been rooting for him from day 1. I thought he had a great deal of potential and I thought he could be the type of guy to score 24 ppg. The thing is, I was hoping for more to come along with that and it has not. He does not have close to the awareness of Aldridge on the defensive end of the floor and he has yet to become viable on the glass, even though his team needs it desperately.

I saw him score 41 points against Amare Stoudemire with my own two eyes. Amare had 34 and 14, but Bargnani had a hell of a game. Have to say though, these were the same Knicks who gave up a 30/30 game to Kevin Love and 44/15 to Blake Griffin. His playing Dallas and Orlando definitely caught my eye, but they actually have players that guard him who play a similar style. Ryan Anderson and Dirk Nowitzki are not my idea of rugged PF’s to guard down low. Though both are still better rebounders than Bargnani.

I mean, Ryan Anderson got 2 offensive rebounds (not just on the season, lol) in that game, not to mention scored 24 points. Bargnani is not stopping guys like that, either. If you look at it through these first games statistics, that is about all one would have to say these two are on the same level. You guys are gambling that Bargnani is going to keep scoring 24 ppg at a 55% clip on a .500 team, while I am sticking with Aldridge putting up numbers I have already seen him put up, on a winning team. Hope that explains why I tend to believe that this was, and still is, a landslide.

[Scottoant93Participant]

 Lots of bargnani haters in here lol how funny how people say he’s irrevelant until this season Yet he’s never had a good coach til now, let’s see how many change their mind if he does this all season bet everyone will be on his d&ck then just like they are on rubios. Sorry we all know bargs has been inconsistent in his career but let’s see how many jump on bandwagon if he suceeds

Btw edit mikeyv this was not directed toward you but to the general fans 

[ChrisCrossParticipant]

Sorry I like Bargnani, But Aldridge is waaayy better, I’m sorry you guys are acting like Bargnani is an all-pro after like 6 games, in case you missed it, he still plays for a loosing team, Aldridge’s team is tied for the best record 

[OMARtheLEGENDParticipant]

@Mikeyv

You’re only mentioning Bargnani’s weakness when comparing him to Aldrige. That makes you look kinda biased  because your only telling one part of the story,  So why dont we mention what clear advantages he has over Aldrige.

 Shooting ability: No doubt LA is a good shooter for a big, but Bargs is much better all around shooter. He also can shoot off the dribble with the best of them at the Power forward position. When on the peremiter Bargs has a guards skill set and it helps him break down the man guarding him.

Face Up Game: Bargs has really good face up game mostly because of his quickness. He keeps the defense on there heals with his afformentioned Jump shot therefore opening up space for him to blow by his man on the block, which he does quite alot.

Passing ability: I am convinced that Bargs would average close to 4 assists a game if his teamates weren’t so bad. So far this season he is averaging 2.5 on the season but he could have alot more if guys like Ed Davis and James Johnson could up there FG% when on the floor with him

 

[Hood_Legend32Participant]

 I dont think LA is much of an aggresive/banger type of player, but in my eyes he’s a bruiser compared to Bargs.

AB posseses a bit more versatile of an offensive repetoire but LA is no slouch on offense either so ill pick him over Bargs simply because he’s more aggresive. 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Bargnani has a little Dirk in his game and as a seven footer, there are some things he can do that Aldridge can’t. He’s the better long range shooter, ball handler and passer. Bargnani definitely has some wing like skills. But if we’re talking about just being a better overall player, it’s clearly Aldridge.

Aldridge took a gigantic leap last season and became an elite power forward. What can’t he do? He can play in the low, mid or high post. He can catch and shoot. He can put it on the floor and finish. He posts up… He’s become a better banger since putting on more weight and muscle. He can should the fadeaway over the left or right shoulder. And he catches the lob better than damn near anybody in basketball. He runs the floor like a deer. A true 6′ 11" with length that’s insane. Very good athlete.

And at the defensive end, he’s very good both on and off of the ball. I thought he defended Dirk just about as well as any four man could during the playoffs. He can defend the pick and roll, and switch out on guards.

And the thing about Aldridge is, he’s still getting better.

[Bmore_DCParticipant]

 Aldridge not even close? haha seriously???

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I believe that I am just pointing out the factors that make Aldridge a better PF than him. I know what Bargnani does well, I believe I stated that I felt he was better than Aldridge in certain areas. But, all in all Omar, we are talking about two guys who are ultimately PF’s. How they get their stats is one thing, but Aldridge has been much more efficient in doing so, which has led to wins.

In fact, I live in Toronto (born and raised as well) and lived in Portland before that, so I have watched both progress. I was down on Aldridge for a while, but last year he came back with a vengeance. Bargnani may be doing the same thing this season, but his rebounding and defense are still a major cause for concern.

I could point out that you, Omar, have said you are from Toronto. Seeing that you made a post leaving out everything Aldridge does well, I do not think that makes you look less biased. I also know boshjonesford is in Toronto and that Scottoant93 is fairly outspoken about his Italian connections. I still take that into account, but while I know that Bargnani is indeed better than Aldridge at some things, I still consider Aldridge the better All-Around player.

Long range shooting goes to Bargnani, but mid-range is comparable. Post game goes to Aldridge by far, even if Bargnani is indeed better at putting the ball on the floor. Also, Aldridge is a great passer. Il Mago may be better, but I do not think this makes him better than Aldridge. To me, what would make him better than Aldridge would be involved with defense and rebounding.

Bargnani has improved in this area, but not enough. I see you stating what Bargnani is better at, but not saying that he is indeed better or helps his team win more than LaMarcus Aldridge. All I pointed out were things that were said about Aldridge in comparison to Bargnani that I felt were not true. If you feel that these things make Bargnani a better player, than that is your prerogative.

But, I feel that you want someone that can mix it up a bit more inside. That is something that completely holds Bargnani back. It would be one thing if he became an average or above average defensive rebounder, like Dirk Nowitzki, but he hasn’t. If Andrea starts rebounding the ball at a higher level and hits that 2 per quarter goal that Dwayne Casey gave him, than he might be in the discussion. Until than, I am not convinced he is in the same class and think that he will indeed come back closer to his core average than his insane offensive numbers thus far.

[Scottoant93Participant]

I may be italian but i actually said alridge was the better player right now because his team is winning(read my first post), I would have left it at that until i heard some insane things about La in a landslide when they are basically almost the same type of player until recently. La is a better rebounder, and is more agressive but that doesn’t make him elite. La is the better player right now but don’t take away from bargs has done so far, hopefully he keeps it up if not i will make a thread just for you guys saying i was wrong

What makes me mad is when people act like bargs was avg 10ppg last season when he avg 20, when people say im not impressed by a player and then 2 months later they act they knew it all along. thats bs fans now in days are seriously cowards stick to your orginal opinons, if you change your mind fine admit they proved you wrong, and move on. How many people said Rubio is gonna be a bust?? now people are like man hes the man, a future all star etc, same for john wall,  everyone loved him last season, now all you here is john wall is overated, john wall has a bad attitude,Kyle Lowry is doing well now future all star,walking tripledouble,etc(same number of games bargs is playing). Im sorry that sh!t annoys the hell out of me,thats the point im trying to get across.

 

[HitsterParticipant]

I’ve always been a big Bargnani fan and it is good to see him stepping up his game this year under Coach Casey but LMA has taken his game to a new level over the last season or two. Like when he helped the Trailblazers make the play offs last year with Roy out, also with Roy now retired and Oden still out, he feels it is his team and with a good supporting cast, he can hopefully become an All Star in the next year or two.

[ilike.panochasParticipant]

Aldridge > Bargani

Simply because Aldridge is a capable scorer down the post, which alot of teams wish they had, a go to player down the post.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I’m sure Blazers fans have, but I has anyone realized that Aldridge is somebody who makes plays down the stretch of games? I mean, like he really steps up. He’s not someone who disappears when the game gets close. He actually steps up and delivers often. He’s an elite power forward. You can’t just sleepwalk and expect to beat Aldridge’s Blazers.

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Bargnanis defensive awareness, if anybody says his defence is very good it means Bargnani is playing very good defence considering how horrible he has been in the past. He is still a below average defensive player, passive at times, and is fueled off of whatever Dwayne Casey is feeding him right now. Bargnani is known to have 10 great all around games in a row then getting satisfied and slowing down. Casey has gotten Bargnani to play at an Allstar calibur for 6 games to which we have to give tons of credit to Bargnani for following the guidance. Lets see if Casey can get him to play like this for a season.

[OhCanada-Participant]

And the reason why Aldridge is a way better option at PF is the body of work. Aldridge has done it, and he goes hard every night you dont even have to question it. Bargnani is playing at a similar level for 6 games, his body of work screams out issues, its not even close.

As far as talent goes Bargnani probally has an edge, but he needs to rebound alot better, defend hard on every possession and continue being the emotional leader he has been. And for god sakes stay consistant.

[Malik-UniversalParticipant]

nearly everything indy bball said and mikey v said i agree with… 

aldrige is just the better player overall… the way he carried the blazers, last yr was crazy, and he plays in a touger conference than bargs to…  

but at the end of the day, bargnani will settle down once more games get under way… im not saying he gnna have just an average season, the guy is improving, but his rebounding numbers suck, his defense is suspect… hes set for around 22 a game

his scoring is incredible for a seven footer, and hes finishing around the rim is improved then once it had been 

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

It can get annoying. People just want to rant and rave whenever they see some recent change or (gasp) actually watch a person play and see what they are about. To me, you can’t judge a person off of one game. Some people on this board are kind of on the Janet Jackson tip, ie. "What have you done for me lately?" (lol).

Still, I think you can see things from my point of view as well. I know you did not necessarily say Bargnani is better than Aldridge and want to give him due credit for having an impressive start to the season. I took it as that, just mentioned your Italian connection as a reason you kind of push for Andrea and might possibly like him more than Aldridge ("If they were both on avg teams I would pick bargs". I know that was only a hypothetical and that you still picked Aldridge, but this could point to having more of an affinity towards a player). 

My thing is, Bargnani has played well, but I need to see him sustain this level and I still see glaring weaknesses. OhCanada- kind of nailed it when he talks about consistency. That was what I was trying to get across, I want to see Bargnani not only keep putting up numbers, but keep playing winning basketball at a high level of efficiency. Aldridge has done this and while he may not have the offensive repertoire of a Bargnani, his level of efficiency in facets of winning basketball has been much higher. I for one would much rather have him on my team, think most would agree.

The Blazers are a better team right now than the Raptors, that is a given. Still, if the two switched places, I believe the Blazers do not keep playing at their current level and the Raptors get better. Having a stretch player like Bargnani is well and good, but Aldridge would help the Raptors in two areas they sorely need, defense and rebounding. These are two areas in which teams win a majority of basketball games. So, even with Bargnani’s versatility as an offensive player, Aldridge is a guy who can also hurt you in a number of areas and I think it is as clear as day that he would help the Raptors a lot rebounding the basketball on both ends of the floor.

Personally, I found it funny that after 6 games, someone was comparing Aldridge and Bargnani using numbers as the basis. Right now, it looks like Bargnani is one of the more efficient players in the league, he has been playing some great basketball. But, as one can see with Aldridge, his numbers went from 39 mpg, 22.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg to 38 mpg, 23.2 ppg, 7.8 rpg last night. Through 6 games. His rebound divide is widening. He is now averaging a board every 5 minutes, which is something Dwayne Casey would love Bargnani to do. His offensive rebounds per game is now only at 2.5, though he still grabbed as many last night as Bargnani has this season.

I guess my point is, I felt like it was going a bit overboard to compare the two when Aldridge is a proven commodity and Bargnani is still a guy who struggles with consistency. Even with his great start, I would take a number of PF’s over Bargnani. He is as much a center as Aldridge is, so, I am not going to start grouping him with those types of guys. Bargnani is a player who needs a system around him to have a winning team. Aldridge is a guy who can be built around to make a winning team. That is the bottom line to me and what separates the two.

My ultimate hope with Bargnani was to see him become an offensive player of this caliber. To me, he and Dirk Nowitzki were comparable in their younger stages. Dirk even said that Andrea was further along than he was after playing against him as a rookie. Andrea had a better rookie year than LaMarcus and appeared to be a possible star. The issue is, he has never developed the toughness of a Dirk Nowitzki.

Dirk was a horrible rebounder who turned into a good, if not great, defensive rebounder. He could at the very least hold his own on that end of the floor. If Andrea took that same path, not to mention raising his percentages the way Dirk managed to over time, than I believe he would be on par with Aldridge.

6 games of playing fantastic offensive basketball is not enough for me to believe in him giving his still glaring weakness as a rebounder with his track record. I know Bargnani is a capable player and scorer, but it is the little things that make me say that I take Aldridge without hesitation.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

Not to change the subject too badly, but what IS up with Aldrige’s rebounding?  I had no problem with him being better than Love and Griffin last year, given that both were pretty lousy defenders, but now with Love trying his ass off on D, I’m ready to make the order Love, Aldrige, Griffin, Bargnani… and it’s hugely impressive for Andrea to be in the conversation.  Blake really, really needs to learn to try on D or he’s going to end up Amare.

[topotamolderParticipant]

And don’t forget this, Aldridge is playing with a guy named Marcus Camby , who is an absolute MONSTER rebounding the ball, last year he averaged 10.3 rebounds in just 26 min and this year 8.7 in 24 min.  I remember last year when camby was injured Aldridge was getting +10 rebound games easily. So Camby plays a huge factor when it comes to Aldridge average rebounding numbers.

If I was a GM, I would take Aldridge with my eyes closed, he clearly has proved to be a really consistent player, and the most important thing, a player who can lead his team to wins.

[Scottoant93Participant]

I understand sorry i had to vent that out probably a little more then i should of, i got annoyed by some of these recent threads(imagine if lebron wins a ring, its going to be chaos, as you know i dislike him because of his "media" attitude, but hes been quiet lately and playin this season, I guess I was wrong…hopefully he keeps this up as well), but yeah i completely understand where your coming from and my example probably was a little far fetched, either way i hope Bargs continues to improve and contribute the way hes doin and I hope Aldridge keeps improving and leading the blazers because that franchise seriously need it after all the crap that has happened to them over the past few years.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

What do you mean what is up with Aldridge’s rebounding? He may not get the numbers on the glass that Love and Griffin get, but he is not a slouch. As I said, the Blazers are indeed one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league. I know that Charles Barkley is annointing Kevin Love the best PF in the world, but I am still not sold defensively.

Love is a rebounding machine and is definitely better than Aldridge in this area, but he still has a lot of issues with longer, more athletic players. Aldridge fits the bill. After seeing LaMarcus average 30 points per game against Kevin Love in 4 Blazers wins last season, I still need convincing that Kevin is a better player.

As I said, it would be one thing is the Blazers were losing games due to LaMarcus’ lack of aggression on the boards, but that has not at all seemed to be the case. When people point to Kevin Love’s numbers not helping his team win, it does not mean he is not still an awesome rebounder and a great player. He is clearly both. But, when one puts up those kind of numbers, you have to wonder what they might look like if they were in a place that maybe provided them some help in areas of need.

I think anywhere Kevin Love goes, he would be a likely double double threat. The thing is, when someones team improves, it is usually a collective effort and not just the effort of one player improving greatly. In fact, I find that when a team tends to get better, numbers usually tend to go down if anything. I feel if Kevin Love were on a team with better rebounders/defenders, his numbers may not be as astronomical as they are now. But, I think he would probably shoot a better percentage from the field and that his team would win more games. If Kevin were averaging 18/12 on a winning team, I would honestly feel he might be in the class of a guy like Griffin or Aldridge.

To me, I would go Aldridge, Griffin, Love and Bargnani, in that order. I feel that Griffin will probably overtake LaMarcus fairly soon as he is incredibly explosive, but his defense worries me. Kevin is fantastic in many facets of the game, but I still feel like his defense is mediocre. He will always bust his butt on the boards, is a fantastic passer and a great shooter, but his post game offensively is not as effective as Aldridge or Griffin. I even feel Griffin has much more defensive potential than Love, if just for his athleticism.

I still feel that long, athletic PF’s tend to have solid games on Kevin Love. His numbers are impressive, but I struggle to see what they mean if his team is not competitive. I also struggle to see how Aldridge and Griffin would not probably make the team more competitive with what they have to offer in terms of pace and athleticism. I really like Kevin Love, but I want to see if his numbers lead to something. If they do, he is a guy you can build around. But, they haven’t led to much thus far. I am amazed at the conditioning Kevin Love is in and think he is a top notch PF, but I still have a hard time saying he is better than two guys who I think will get the better of him when they play each other.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

Griffin’s defense isn’t mediocre; it’s atrocious.  He doesn’t try and isn’t improving.  He should be a force and just isn’t even mediocre.  At this point, I’m entirely unsure he’s better than Bargnani, should the latter’s defensive improvement be real.

Love’s defense this year has been very good. Sure he has issues with athletic guys, but, well, he also has Darko and not Camby covering his mistakes.  Aldridge is a weak rebounder.  He has good games off the glass, so does Amare (who LMA is a far superior defender than), but by and large, he’s bad at it.  It’s a weakness, and a big one.  Love has weakness against one specific type of player – the highly skilled, athletic 4 – but really, few teams seem to have that anyway, whereas LMA’s rebounding against everyone is usually mediocre. 

And as for the "winning" arguement, I’ve said it before, but Rambis is the worst coach in the NBA.  He had the highest usage rate on the team for Darko, their worst offensive player.  Check the Wolves record at the end of this year then get back to me about their being competitve.  It’s a coach’s league and holding Love responsible for his team having no defensive scheme and running the offense through it’s worth player is so beyond his control as to be laughable.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Love’s defense this year has been very good

Just stop… Lol.

He still doesn’t move his feet well, is late on rotations and turns his head on the ball…

Both Griffin and Love both suck at defense.

[Scottoant93Participant]

While were talking about Love Does he DERSERVE a max contract? i mean yes he avgs a double double scores,rebounds still sucks at defense but his team has always been bad until maybe now.

Also does he stick around with the Wolves?

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I mean, there are 30 NBA teams and he is probably a top 30 player. I personally would give a max contract to only about 12-15 players, but with the production Love has put up, I think he will be somewhere around a max deal. You have to figure he will want somewhere around what LaMarcus Aldridge and Marc Gasol are getting paid, if not more due to his of course leading the NBA in rebounding (well, at least last year and I am thinking once Dwight gets traded, probably this year as well).

Does he stick around with the Wolves?

I mean, I do not think he has much of a choice. Everyone keeps mentioning so and so leaving a team after their rookie contract. Well, if you are a top notch player, that has not really happened. If Kevin signs an offer sheet somewhere else, I see little chance Minnesota does not match. I also see little chance he takes the qualifying offer. 

Kevin’s major issue as a draft prospect was his conditioning and his knee issues. He has gotten into better shape than I have ever imagined, which I am sure helps alleviate some of the worry with the knee issues. Nonetheless, many saw his knees as a ticking time bomb. I say, he does not risk injury and signs a long term extension. Whether that is with Minnesota or not, Minnesota is matching. So, he does stick around with the Wolves.

Also, no matter how bad the coaching was, winning as few games as the Timberwolves have is disconcerting. Love’s defense being any better than Blake Griffin’s is fairly laughable as well. Kevin is like a Zach Randolph type guy. A good friend of my grandfather and former NBA exec used to say, "Zach may score 25, but he is giving up 30". That may be an exaggeration, but Kevin gets numbers that are fantastic, but usually gives up a nice chunk as well. Especially against guys you are trying to say he is in front of.

Now, with Aldridge’s rebounding, again, I do not think it is as much of a problem as you make it out to be. This is a guy who was only behind Kevin Love (the best offensive rebounder in the league), Z-Bo and Dwight Howard. He was 14th in the NBA in total rebounding last season at 8.8 rpg and his team plays a pretty damn slow pace of basketball. Plus, even you admit that he is a much better defensive presence than either Kevin Love or Blake Griffin. Both are better rebounders, but they cover less ground defensively and unfortunately, neither has a 7’5 wingspan (might be more). Truly, I feel that whatever LaMarcus lacks in rebounding numbers, he makes up more in defensive versatility and making life more difficult for his opponents game in and game out. You switch Kevin and LaMarcus, it might be interesting, but my guess is Nate McMillan loves LaMarcus for his defense and is fine with his rebounding production.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

Good arguement, alright, you’ve sold me on Aldridge over Love for now.    I still think Love is rapidly improving on defence.  He’s anything but great now, but he is far, far ahead of Blake.  He’s actualy making rotations now off the ball pretty properly, while it seems like Blake doesn’t even try to.  It’s going to take time and reps for Love to be actually good at D, but he’s putting in the work.  How the hell are the Wolves suddenly middle of the pack in defensive efficiency?

[HitsterParticipant]

Out of interest, I looked at Bargnani and Aldridge’s career statistics and noticed that Aldridge has outscored Bargnani in all but their rookie season and has always out rebounded him. If you also consider Portland have been more successful in this period then it shows clearly that LMA is the all round superior player. I’ve always been a fan of both guys and they have both developed well since their rookie days and they were competing to be the top pick in the 2006 draft. 

 

You could argue that LMA had a stronger supporting cast but don’t forget that Bargnani had an All Star running mate in Chris Bosh for his first 4 years at Toronto and LMA has never really had Greg Oden as his regular frontcourt partner. Also add in when Roy sadly got injured, LMA really stepped up and took Portland to the play offs.

 

Other deals may not have worked out so well but Portland have a lot to thank Kevin Pritchard for in acquiring LMA from the 2006 draft. In recent years Portland have also assembled a good support cast behind LMA with Camby, Felton, Batum and Wallace giving them a nice core plus they still have a few of those Pritchard stashers left in Europe who they may be able to bring over or maybe trade the rights to

 

Since Bosh went to Miami, Toronto has very much been Bargnani’s team but recently DeRozan has started to step up and with Davis looking a nice prospect and Valancius to come over next summer, they too have a decent core going forward.

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Bargnani scored 17 points with 4 rebounds in a 97-85 loss to New Jersey. He only took 12 shots in a game where Derozan only scored 6-points. Not only that but New jersey won the game on second chance points, offensive rebounds. Humphries, the player Andrea was matched up against got 9-offensive rebounds and 7-defensive rebounds. Hump was also +18, while Bargnani was -11. Humpries grabbed 5 more offensive rebounds then bargnani got rebounds. Bargnani lost this game for Toronto, along with Derozan shooting 1-6 from the field.

This is what I and many other posters assumed would happen, this is what Andrea does, and this is what Andrea has to correct. Every game, it has to be a consistant effort throughout the season.

Humphries beat the shit out of Andrea tonight. Are we really arguing on whether or not Bargnani is as good as Aldridge? Come on…

[Scottoant93Participant]

 Despite humphris  rebounds against every team like that just look at his avg for the season also as you say bargs lost this game funny as a raps you fail to mention his dumbass teammates not passing hm the ball when he was wide open instead forcing shots over defenders ie James Johnson, and turning the ball over for no reason demar horrible shooting and his out of bounds turnover. The announcers were even saying they were ignoring bargs when they should have passed him the ball and Dwayne Casey was stressing it. So next time you come up with an arguement about bargs losing the game maybe you should watch it instead instead of reading the box score.  4/6 in the first quarter took 1 shot in the second 3 in the 3rd and about  3 or 4 in the 4th which wouldn’t show up because of ft.  Bargs had a 3point play and a 3 that amped up the crowed and a rebound that led to a fast break where Calderon missed a 3 and followed b several turnovers later in by others raps  players and bargs didn’t get the ball for hear on out know your sh!t plus everyone already agreed la was the better player so what you b!tching for

[OhCanada-Participant]

Not bitching I actually find it amusing. Albert Einstein has been quoted saying insanity is the same as doing the same thing over and over while expecting the same results. If Raptors fans jump on board the Bargnani train every 2 weeks then that is insane because time and time again Andrea has proved to let us down.

I am a fan of Andrea and hope he can fix these issues. I think he has proved he is capable of playing up to his potential with the right guidanc ehe is being provided. That will take plenty of time and wont just happen overnight. He shouldve been traded and given a reduced role on a different team a long time ago so he should count his blessings as he earns this increased responsibility and respect leaguewide.

Can he do it. Yes.

Has he done it. No.

Will he do it. Not sure.

Is he trying. Yes.

Sounds good to me take him off the trading block.

[Scottoant93Participant]

I guess we will all find out tom then right… they play the sixers and play something like 7 games in the next 9 games, we will find out who the "real" bargs is along with the "real" raps are. Just Hopefully amir doesn’t think about shooting anymore 18 footers smh. Heres some advice for the raps when a player is hot, weather it be bargs,or Derozen give them the ball

[OhCanada-Participant]

Also excuses are what losers make. Not being rude its just true. Successful people dont make excuses, when an obstacle is presented to a successful person they deal with the obstacle turning it into an oppurtunity and do not complain and make excuses.

Things like not holding Bargnani accountable for being outrebounded by 12 boards… Or guys like james Johnson, or Leandro Barbosa not giving him touches…Excuses.

Bargnani should man up against anybody in the NBA and compete on the boards. Never should any big ever get outrebounded by 12 boards at any level of basketball.

If Bargnani is the player we were talking about him being he would DEMAND the ball, CONVINCE his team to give him touches, and LEAD his team to victory by doing the right things.

[Scottoant93Participant]

Can’t argue with that one, I am all for making everyone accountable for their actions that why i said the team lost it,  your the one who quickly pointed the finger(isn’t that an excuse..just messin ) . Its a long season in the end the results will show for itself weather favoring my opinion or favoring yours either way im sticking my predictions.

[Scottoant93Participant]

Also i just noticed you quoted Einstein wrong its "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" not trying to be an a$$ or anything, just correcting it. You were probably typing too fast

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Thanks for that I was typing too quick actually.

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Thanks for that I was typing too quick actually.

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Thanks for that I was typing too quick actually.

 

[aamir543Participant]

Bargnani has played 252 minutes, and DeMarcus  Cousins has played 183. Most people would guess that Cousins still has more rebounds, but Bargnani has more defensive rebounds than Cousins does, 38-34.

But when it comes to offensive rebounding, well…………….let’s just say it’s not nearly as close.

Cousins- 37

Barganani- 2

And this despite Cousins playing 69 less minutes than Bargnani. Just ridiculous. Cousins has a better offensive rebound rate than Bargnani has TOTAL rebound rate. Cousins gets an offensive board every 4.9 minutes, whereas Bargnani gets a board in general every 6.3 minutes. Cousins has more offensive boards than defensive boards.

Rodman’s best rate in a season for Total rebounds was a rebound every 2.15 minutes. Cousins’ current rate, a rebound every 2.5 minutes.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread again, but I’m just trying to show how great of a rebounder Cousins is. He most likely won’t continue his current rate, but 7 games is a handful, and albeit it be a small sample size, he has proven he can rebound at an astounding rate.

Cousins is the future best center in the league, and although he has a very toxic attitude, and shoots at a very low percentage for a big man, he has the makings of a great. His Per 36 minute stats are 20 and 14.

The problem is he can’t get to 36 minutes, lol, but with maturity and a coach that he can respect in Keith Smart, he can really flourish into a 25 and 15 guy in the future and be a premier defensive at the same time.

Dang, Cousins had a 3.0 defenisve sin share last season, but a -1.9 offensive win share last season.

[Scottoant93Participant]

^^^ Demarcus Cousins can be a special player but he just needs to change his attitude, i don’t think people are doubting his skill as much as his maturity.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Again, said this with Kevin Love, do not think it is happening. If it does, Kevin would be the most likely player to do it. The thing that separates Kevin from DeMarcus is the mental aspect, which was displayed immediately by Kevin. DeMarcus is bigger, that is for sure. His wingspan is ridiculous and I am not surprised that he has excelled on the offensive glass.

The thing is, wonder how many of those rebounds come off of his own misses, lol. Not saying he is not an awesome offensive rebounder in general, but when you are shooting 40% (as he is right now), you wonder. The other thing that separates DeMarcus from Kevin is the foul issues. Kevin does not have the length to be even close to the defensive obstruction as Cousins, but Cousins led the league in fouls last season. Averaging 28.5 mpg. That is disconcerting.

He is also leading the league in fouls this season, averaging 4.9 fpg in 26 mpg. That gives him as many fouls as defensive rebounds. Yikes. Not saying he cannot get past being a foul machine, he is young and if he works on his conditioning this should be curbed. But, despite the enormous production he puts up in limited minutes, he has areas that I feel will prevent him from becoming a guy that averages even close to 25 ppg. I mean, Aamir, the guy is also averaging 6.7 fouls per 36 minutes.

As I said in the "Kevin Love might average 25 and 15" post, no one has done that since 1975-76 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar). I think Cousins could be a big time scorer and rebounder, a 22 and 12 guy possibly, but 25 and 15 is bananas. Also, if DeMarcus ever wants to get near those averages, he has to stop floating away from the basket. If he gets his FG% up to the 50’s, sky is the limit, but he shows little sign of that happening. Right now, I think his per minute averages are an illusion and if he ever gets to 36 minutes per game, I do not think he puts up those type of numbers consistently. This is a thing of averaging 25 and 15, not just doing it over a few games.

This is why I think this Bargnani to Aldridge comparison is not as close as the stats mentioned after 5 games for Aldridge and 6 games for Bargnani made it appear. After 7 games, Aldridge is now leading in rebounding 7.7 to 5.7. Seeing that he is averaging 37.1 mpg, that has definitely widened the gap between the two as rebounders.

Plus, now the scoring margin is 23 ppg to 21.9 ppg for Bargnani. Gap closing there as well. Andrea is still shooting at a ridiculous clip of 54% to Aldridge’s 49%, but as I said, lets see which one sustains. All I know is, Aldridge has averaged 49% FG for his career while Andrea is at 44% for his. Guys usually do not sustain a 10% bump in FG% without a major role change. Andrea has improved, but his role is still the same as it was last year. Sustained improvement is the key for Bargnani to be in the discussion with Aldridge.

[JNixonParticipant]

 Everything MikeyV is saying is true. Aldridge is alot better than Bargnani to me from watching too. He’s a better rebounder and low post player on both ends, and he’s been more efficient as a player too. He’s not the face-up player Bargnani is, but he is better at everything else. Which includes being good at the things PF’s are generally asked to do. That counts for a whole heck of alot.

[Scottoant93Participant]

Andrea has 6 reb(1 off) in the 2nd, but only has 10 pts(not bad but is 4-11..bad) Needs to stop shooting jumpers and attack the basket…their losing by 6 still 2 quarters left lets see if casey gets in his ear of attacking the basket and see how he responds

[Scottoant93Participant]

wow this is horrible, raps have alot of work to do they are getting killed 31-15, Bargs has his first double double(17 and 11 reb after 3) of the season(you think the next comment is gonna be postive right..wrong) i maybe a fan of his and wish him luck but he needs to attack the basket  7-17 is not really something to proud of especially since most of them were jumpshots and 3 pointers, he attacked at the end of the 3rd but it is too little too late.

Now just to be clear im still sticking to my predictions(that bargs will improve and finally establish himself as the number 1 option), just giving an unbiased view since people think i fail to see from the opposite poin of view. Hopefully he keeps up the energy of rebound though

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

How is this debate looking? Just wanted to bring this one back to the people who were saying that Bargnani had entered LaMarcus Aldridge’s class after 6 games. Now, I do not take pleasure in Bargnani being hurt. It sucks and I wish he were playing for the Raptors sake as they desperately need his scoring. However, this was said:

his defense is pretty good (his only flaw is rebounding and Aldrige isnt that much better at rebounding) …..+ AB is much more durable health wise (rearly gets injured)

Well, have to say, not really the case. Remember, folks, LaMarcus Aldridge was averaging 7.4 rpg after 5 games. This was still MUCH better than Andrea Bargnani on a per minute basis. But, it is only 1.4. No big deal. Well, it is now 16 games into the season and LaMarcus is at 8.8 rpg. That is what he averaged last season as well. Bargnani, through 11 games, was averaging 6.5 rpg. Still, he had 8 offensive rebounds in 11 games!

Want to know what is funny about that number? LaMarcus Aldridge had 9 offensive rebounds against the Raps on Friday. Bargnani was still hurt, unfortunately, so the two could not go head to head. Nonetheless, if better rebounders such as Amir Johnson and Ed Davis could do little to keep Aldridge off of the boards, do not like Bargnani’s odds of slowing him down a great deal. LA finished with 33 points and 23 rebounds, also chipping in 5 assists. He was the first person to put up such numbers or more since Kevin Garnett did back in 2003.

I admit that Bargnani was putting up monster numbers to start the season. He is a great scorer and he has a fantastic skill set for a player his size. The thing is, LaMarcus Aldridge does the most important things better than Andrea Bargnani. It is hard to say that most teams would not be better off playing Aldridge at the 4 spot rather than Bargnani. If you are saying, "Well, Bargnani is a center", than LaMarcus Aldridge is still much better at that position as well.

LaMarcus Aldridge is now averaging a rebound every 4:18 he plays on the court. Andrea is at 5:24. This is the best Andrea has ever done and he is still averaging a minute less than Aldridge per rebound. So, not exactly as close as the raw statistics might appear. Sure, it might be unfair that Aldridge and Bargnani did not actually go toe to toe in the Blazers/Raps match-up. But, history suggests, Aldridge would still do his thing:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bargnan01&p2=aldrila01

Aldridge’s All-Time record against Bargnani is 8-1 in the win column. He does have a better team, but lets look at the past 4 contests, where they both went from second banana to primary scorers.

LaMarcus Aldridge’s last 4 match-up averages with Bargnani:

22.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg (4 orpg), 1.8 apg, 1.3 bpg, 0.8 spg, 2 topg, 47.3% FG, 0 3PT (None Attempted), 78.2% FT

Andrea Bargnani’s last 4 match-up averages with Aldridge:

16.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg (1.5 orpg), 1.5 apg, 0.3 bpg, 0.3 spg, 2.5 topg, 42.8% FG, 15.4% 3PT (2/13), 84.6% FT

Well, at the very least, he is a better free throw shooter. Though, to be fair, Aldridge got to the line 10 more times which kind of makes that slightly obselete. Also, the Blazers are 4-0 in those meetings. So, as close as they may be statistically, there are some differences that made me make the statement that Aldridge was the better player by a landslide. I stick by it and still believe it. When Bargnani comes back, he will have to keep being efficient to even be in the same league as a player who relatively everyone views as one of the best PF’s in the game.

[Scottoant93Participant]

 Alridge is the better player but at least raps fans should realize that without bargs they suck even then with. This might stop the dd is our franchise player and ab is stesling ed davis’s minutes. When bargs comes back lets see how it he comes back not doubting la would outplay ab but bargs has also improved so you never know i guess you wait til the next matchup either this or next season

[Author]

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