2011 Nike Hoop Summit: International Measurements
Weight: 210 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'9" Height
(w/ shoes): 6'10.5"
Wing Span: 6'10.25"
Body Fat: 7.7%
Standing Reach: 8'10"
Weight: 243 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'7.75"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'9"
Wing Span: 7'7"
Body Fat: 4.8%
Standing Reach: 9'3"
Weight: 206 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'5.75"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'7"
Wing Span: 6'7.5"
Body Fat: 6.6%
Standing Reach: 8'7"
Weight: 279 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'11.25"
Height (w/ shoes): 7'1"
Wing Span: 7'0.5"
Body Fat: 16.3%
Standing Reach: 9'0.25"
Lucas Nogueira Weight: 218 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'10"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'11.5"
Wing Span: 7'5.5"
Body Fat: 7.8%
Standing Reach: 9'3"
Weight: 181 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'0"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'1.25"
Wing Span: 5'11.5"
Body Fat: 5.2%
Standing Reach: 7'7"
Weight: 203 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'4.75"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'6"
Wing Span: 6'5.25"
Body Fat: 8.6%
Standing Reach: 8'4"
Weight: 215 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'8.75"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'10.25"
Wing Span: 6'11.75"
Body Fat: 4.0%
Standing Reach: 9'0"
Weight: 224 lbs.
Height (w/o shoes): 6'8.25"
Height (w/ shoes): 6'9.25"
Wing Span: 7'0"
Body Fat: 11.3%
Standing Reach: 8'10"
Bismack Biyombo measurements are ridiculous ,6'9 with 7'7 wigspan!!
Wow, a 7-7 wingspan is just nasty. Biyombo's measurements and athletisism sure remind me of Ibaka.
Darko Saric is much bigger than I thought too, the site has him listed at 6-8 when really he's more like 6-10 and a 7-foot wingspan sure doesn't hurt.
And happy to see Nogueira has put on almost 20 lbs.
Can Saric play PF? He's just 16 and is 6-10, 215. If he grows an inch and adds 20+ lbs over the next 2 years, he'll have the perfect PF body.
Lucas Nogueira is only 218lbs but has 7.8% body fat which is strange for someone so skinny. Bismark's wingspan jumped out at me and so did his standing reach combined with him weighing in at over 240lbs and having a low body fat count then his lack of height for a frontcourter should not be a huge issue.
They were the ones he more than likely got it from, unless he is a member of the media.
Here is a video I got from the Nike Hoop Summit Twitter on Lucas Nogueira:
I'm cursing myself for not putting out that Biyombo post when I first heard about him 4 months ago.
This dude basically just got discovered and skyrocketed to the highest competition in Europe in under a year due to his sheer physical profile and natural abilities are insane. He is still only 18 and may not even be done growing height wise considering his wingspan/height ratio is ridiculous.
They made a big deal about him leaving for the Nike Hoop Summit. Notice they used the words "leave" instead of "will attend." He'll stay in this draft and turn into a top 10 pick by the time it's over. With Ibaka's success teams are going to want to take the gamble.
Same things stand out to me, Biyombo and Saric. I mean, to give a comparison to Biyombo's standing reach if it is indeed accurate, that is in the neighborhood of being half an inch more than that of Emeka Okafor, Chris Kaman and Andrew Bogut. Also longer than LaMarcus Aldridge and Kevin Durant. His height without shoes also makes him a legit 6'9. The guy has wings though. I do not blame him for leaving Fuenlabrada for the game, because this will be amazing exposure for him to possibly enter the draft this year.
For those who do not know the story, Eurohopes and Draftexpress reported that Fuenlabrada, the senior team Biyombo plays for, threatened to demote him to the second team if he left for the game. Well, Biyombo either is calling their bluff or does not care, because he is in Portland. He is only 18 and was playing a nice role in the Spanich ACB, which is the top league in Spain. It seems like he is a great rebounder and shotblocker at this stage. Blocking shots is more about length and timing than athleticism, though I do not know if he is fairly athletic as well. But, he has supreme length and is blocking shots at a great rate amongst grown men. Very intriguing prospect, originally from the Congo, who is getting flooded with Ibaka comparisons. Really happy he is going to be there, I remember seeing Serge in this game in 2008, he was raw, but you could see flashes of his amazing athleticism. Biyombo has a nice set up to have a good game against a small US front line.
Saric's numbers also are pretty darn impressive. He measures at pretty much a legit 6'10, and I think his skill set is pretty special for a player who will only turn 17 a day before the game. He is a definitely a prospect to watch for the future and I am guessing he will be a top prospect in whatever draft he enters. Really looking forward to seeing how he matches up against the excellent wings on team USA.
Where the USA usually crushes the international team is in speed and guard play, it is an All-Star game type format afterall. Last year, Kanter almost was enough to take the game, but Irving, Barnes and Terrence Jones were the ones that really iced it for Team USA. This year I am guessing much the same will happen, but if the International Team does indeed use its major size advantage, we could see an upset. It will be interesting to see if defense does actually play a factor, but beyond Biyombo, I do not know if it will.
I think the Internationals still have an advantage with their shooting, even with Rivers and Beal, the Internationals have some people who can burn up the nets with Pangos, Neto, Ponitka and Wiltjer. Really turning into an exciting game, and Biyombo made it that much more so. Would have loved to see how Khem Birch and Myck Kabongo added their athleticism to the mix to compete with that of Team USA, but I think the internationals should put up a good fight. Still like USA, but this game could put a couple international guys in the draft as early as this year (Biyombo and Nogueira). Also, for those interested, Ponitka and Karnowski both have yet to play pro and I think are both technically Class of 2012 prospects. I have heard that at least Karnowski is possibly interested in playing college ball, and I would think Ponitka might be as well.
No matter the score this is my favorite of the high school all star games every year
Not only does it usually have 10 of the best US prospects, but the international players always have some intriguing names. Plus, their are usually at least a few top HS guys who have some international lineage that play in the game. Samardo Samuels was from Jamaica in 2008, Tristan Thompson and Corey Joseph in 2010 and Kyle Wiltjer this year from Canada, and all were McDonald's All-Americans. Since it came back in 2004, their have been a lot of great players on both teams. A lot of draft picks on both sides, and you get to see how the top American prospects fare against top prospects from all over the globe. Usually, it shows just how close the competition really is as far as overall basketball ability.
Bargnani, Sergio Rodriguez, Semih Erden, Patty Mills, Mohammed Sene, Nicolas Batum, Ryan Richards, Alexis Ajinca, Omri Casspi, Solomon Alabi, Serge Ibaka and Kevin Seraphin were all draft picks who have played in the NBA that were International Team players. Samardo Samuels was undrafted, Petteri Kopponen was drafted but has yet to play in the league. Plus, Donatas Motiejunas, Enes Kanter, Thompson, Corey Joseph (and possibly Devoe Joseph) and Milan Macvan all are definitely draftable prospects in the next few years. This game is definitely the coolest one in my mind, really glad I have gotten the opportunities I have had to go.
“They made a big deal about him leaving for the Nike Hoop Summit. Notice they used the words "leave" instead of "will attend." He'll stay in this draft and turn into a top 10 pick by the time it's over. With Ibaka's success teams are going to want to take the gamble.”
Basketball is more than dunking and blocking shots, and Serge Ibaka is the same overpraised limited energy player he was before the Thunder dealt Green. He starts, but the fouls still keep his minutes down and the act of starting has not changed the fact that he is a non-threat offensively. The problem with Biyombo is the same that it is for Thompson, Faried, and Robinson. Energy and athleticism is not what bad teams lack. Look at the Wizards, they have one of the most athletic big men in the league in McGee and an absolute Tasmanian devil in Trevor Booker. It does not help them. Great teams like the Lakers seem to do exceptionally well with skilled big men as opposed to energy, and they take advantage of the foul prone and turnover prone energy guys that bad teams think matter. Everyone is searching for the next Dwight Howard so that they can magically become good at defense not realizing that guy is not out there, and that most teams that defend well do so by moving their feet and communicating assignments. Bad teams need to get people who can play, not guys who end up in highlight reels for a blocked shot or a dunk during another loss.
I must disagree with you on that one. Ibaka has a consistent midrange jump shot and often surprizes with a drive. He is averaging 10 ppg this season (and around 14 since he has been starting) and is a very good rebounder. I watched almost every single Thunder game this year and I'm very impressed with his progress through the season.
He actually hasn't had that much highlight reel dunker. IMO his top 10 dunks actually sucks lol.
Sorry BTPH but I do not agree with that statement at all. Too say a player like Thompson, or Faried cannot help a team get victories is just false. Oklaholma really needs Ibaka's interior shotblocking and energy, he is a solid contributor to that team, and helps them win games. Mcgee and Ibaka should not be compared. McGee is 40 pounds to small for his position, and about 40 IQ points short to play the position as well. Booker is 6'7 and a rookie in the league who is exceeding expectations. Not to mention they have very little veteran leadership, and the team leaders of the Wizards are Nick Young, and Andray Blatche. thats a totally different situation then the one in Oklaholma.
Everyone hates a player who wont play to his abillities, and someone who is a negative rolemodel within the lockerroom. For guys like Faried, thompson, Evans, Anderson, Turiaf, you know what you are going to get every single night, and their teammates dont wanna sit their looking like clowns not iving the same effort. I would rather have an energy based player who gives 120% every night then a skill based player who gives 50^% one night 80% the next etc.
I agree that Basketball is much more then athletisism, and energy although those are good things to have as a basketball player. What makes Biyombo so intriguing is he has Ibaka's athletisism, length, and energy in Seraphin's body (a little shorter). Ive been reading up on this guy throughout the year dying for updates on his game. If he tries to be drafted this year there is a good chance he goes Top 20, and a slight chance he goes in the lottery.
difference is Ibaka is a legit 6 10 and is obviously a better defender than this dude
the craziest thing to me about Biyombo is that he's 243 lbs. and under 5% body fat. the guy is diesel.
"He is averaging 10 ppg this season (and around 14 since he has been starting) and is a very good rebounder."
Ibaka has been averaging 11.1 points on 51.3 perent shooting, 8.9 rebounds, and 3.3 blocks since Green was dealt. He was averaging 9.3 points on 56.3 perent shooting, 7.1 rebounds, and 2.1 blocks before. The minutes have not gone up a ton because of the propensity to foul."
"Too say a player like Thompson, or Faried cannot help a team get victories is just false. Oklaholma really needs Ibaka's interior shotblocking and energy, he is a solid contributor to that team, and helps them win games."
None of those guys can help a bad team get wins. Ibaka without Durant is JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Amir Johnson, etc. etc.
"If he tries to be drafted this year there is a good chance he goes Top 20, and a slight chance he goes in the lottery."
Maybe, but good luck with that. The fouling and turnovers translates from oversees too, and we all know how NBA coaches just love mistake prone youngsters.
11 points and 9 boards on the fourth best team in the West isn't in any way bad though is it? It's just his sophmore year, I'm pretty sure he will be less foul prown in the future.
Ibaka is not McGee or DeAndre Jordan. Ibaka plays smart basketball, his shot selection is great (thus his 54.7 field goal percentage) and is a better defender than both of them.
I never said bad. I have said limited and overpraised. His success is very much tied to Kevin Durant being his teammate just as a guy like Tyson Chandler has been a very different player when he has had high end talent around him. If I am thinking about a team in the lottery, I don't see a lack of guys who offer what Biyombo, Thompson, Faried, and Robinson provide. They have length and athleticism. They have energy. Talent can be lacking.
Now their is no lack but their has been in the last little bit as far as the league goes. Most of them came withing the las 2 or 3drafts. Its ard to name many legit shot blocking, energy, PF's with that skilset in the NBA aside from the last 3 years wort of drafts. Ibaka, Udoh, Davis, Sanders, McGee etc.
Cleveland- Varejao (energy and shot blocking), Hollins (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Samuels (energy)
Minnesota- Randolph (giggling), Tolliver (energy)
Washington- McGee (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Booker (athleticism and energy), Seraphin (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Ndiaye (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking)
Sacramento/Anaheim- Dalembert (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Thompson (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), and Whiteside (athleticism and shot blocking)
Toronto- Davis (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Johnson (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Alabi (athleticism and shot blocking), Ajinca (athleticism and shot blocking), and Evans (energy)
New Jersey- Humphries (athleticism and energy), James (energy), Gadzuric (energy, and shot blocking), and Wright (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking)
Detroit- Maxiell (energy), Jerebko (energy and athleticism), and Wallace (energy and shot blocking)
Los Angeles C- Jordan (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Aminu (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Smith (energy), and Diogu (athleticism and energy)
Milwaukee- Sanders (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking)
Charlotte- Diop (energy, and shot blocking), Thomas (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Brown (athleticism and shot blocking), Przybilla (shot blocking)
Golden State- Biedrins (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Udoh (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking) Amundson (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), and Adrien (athleticism and energy)
Utah- Favors (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking) and Evans (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking)
Phoenix- Lopez (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Lawal (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking)
Houston- Patterson (athleticism and energy), Hill (athleticism, energy, and shot blocking), Harris (energy and athleticism), and Thabeet (shot blocking)
You can't energy and shot block your way to Pau/Odom/Bynum, Garnett/Davis/Shaq/Krstic/Jermaine, or Duncan/Bonner/Blair/ McDyess/Novak/Splitter. Even if you look at the Mavs and Bulls, they have the unskilled energy guys but they also have Dirk, Haywood, Boozer, and Thomas.
Like I said before Ibaka and those guys you mentioned before are PF's. It is better to have a balance of energy guys and utility guys but you cant just go ahead and say energy/shotblocking guys are useless.
Doesnt Bynum prived energy and shotblocking for LA, same with Asik and Noah for hao, Chandler for Dallas, Garnett and J.Oneal for Boston, Anthony for Miami. They are important role players who add a nice dynamic to a team with the proper foundation, not necassarily the team identity GM's should b trying to make their team into. If the team is not nuilt correctly you cannot just blame the player for the team not having success.
A team does not have to sacrifice basketball skills for energy. Kevin Garnett plays as hard as anyone, but he is also incredibly skilled. When his body is functioning, Jermaine O'Neal can still hit a 15-footer. Bynum blocks shots and is athletic, but can also get the ball in the low post and know what to do with it. For the most part, the guys I listed don't have to be guarded outside the paint and aren't exactly functional low post threats. That makes the jobs of those around them more difficult. Joakim Noah would not be who he is if not for the fact that Derrick Rose can go 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 as well as he does. The same goes for Asik and to a lesser degree Gibson (he misses those 15-footers a ton but hits enough to keep taking them).
I agree on the fact that what Washington is doing is just wrong by putting together the best athletes they can and that energy and athletisism should be a complimentary pieces to skill and fundiemntals not the other way around. Ibaka complimetns his teamamtes well, and Mcgee doesnt as an example. You are right in the sense that Faried should not automatically be a better prospect then a guy like Thompkins, but if a team lacks in energy, rebounding and hustle like a New York Knicks then Faried would be a better selection, as would Thompson, and Biyombo.
"Minnesota- Randolph (giggling)"
I don't have to invest in energy with lottery or mid-first round picks. Markieff Morris plays just as hard as any of those guys and is vastly more skilled. Guys like Rick Jackson, Frank Hassell, Malcolm Thomas, and Matthew Bryan-Amaning aren't first round picks. They have the same physical attributes and traits like energy and rebounding.
I do not have a twitter (may get one eventually), but it does give you some nice quick hits way before more of the story comes out. Supposedly Lucas Nogueira and Bismack Biyombo have impressed with their energy, and Mateusz Ponitka looks like a real leader. That is all I really have from the Eurohopes twitter, but I am guessing we will know much more as the week goes on.
As for BTPH, I agree to an extent. Still, most of the front courts you named were very high picks, and you do want energy and enforcer type players in the middle to late first, where it is usually a crap shoot. Ibaka was a great value pick at 24 and more than likely should have gone higher all things considered. Markieff Morris may be better right now, but some of the physical tools that Biyombo has makes him really intriguing.
Much like you told me earlier in the year "Not everyone knew Paul Pierce was going to be Paul Pierce" (We were arguing for Harrison Barnes, and I than argued that while I thought Barnes was going to be solid, that him being close to Pierce would be a stretch). Those words resonated for sure, but I think they apply in this case as well. Guys who look like more polished players at this point might not be better players than these young athletic, raw energy players down the line. I do know all of the players mental capabilities, but if Biyombo has length, athleticism and even motor ahead of Markieff, that could be a sign that he is worth a look. Markieff might help more immediately, but I do not know if he will be better down the line.
Development and mental outlook are two huge factors, and that is ultimately what makes players great, average or otherwise. If you have physical tools and athleticism, it is a nice start, but Markieff may indeed have something over Biyombo mentally. Or vice versa. Seeing Serge Ibaka going up against Pau Gasol last year in the play-offs with reckless abandon made me think that he might become more than just an energy player. He may not be a star, and he is still raw and foul prone, but he could be a winner, and if he would have been a lottery pick, I do not think he would have been a bust. He seems to be showing much more promise than Anthony Randolph and Robin Lopez, each of whom were ahead of him in the skill department at the time of the draft and went 14/15 respectively.
I agree that for the most part teams in the lotto to mid first range want something a little more immediate as help, but they might be passing on something pretty nice in the role player department, even if they may take slightly longer to develop.
Wasnt there another guy People were talking about being so good cuz he was young athletic and long. I think he was was from france. Last years draft. Another guy who comes to mind who the same thing was said about was Petro and the other guy the Thunder drafted( when they were called the supersonics) you dont spend lotto picks on those type guys if you have better players who can help you right wayw on the board. You spend picks on guys like that when you are a playoff team
"Much like you told me earlier in the year "Not everyone knew Paul Pierce was going to be Paul Pierce" (We were arguing for Harrison Barnes, and I than argued that while I thought Barnes was going to be solid, that him being close to Pierce would be a stretch). Those words resonated for sure, but I think they apply in this case as well. Guys who look like more polished players at this point might not be better players than these young athletic, raw energy players down the line. I do know all of the players mental capabilities, but if Biyombo has length, athleticism and even motor ahead of Markieff, that could be a sign that he is worth a look. Markieff might help more immediately, but I do not know if he will be better down the line."
The difference is that a guy like Biyombo is playing catch up. It isn't as if the likes of the Morris twins are going to stop working to develop too. If I am a team and grading Biyombo versus Markieff Morris, I know that I have a higher floor with Morris as well as a higher realistic ceiling. With Biyombo, it is the body and energy. The fouls and turnovers are huge red flags. Coaches don't like mistake prone players. They don't see the floor. Let's use the Knicks example mentioned earlier. What is the case that Biyombo, Faried, Thompson, or Robinson have a different fate than Jordan Hill? Was Jordan Hill any less athletic, energetic, or long? D'Antoni had no use for him, and that is a harsh fate for a high lottery pick. It impacts their development. Now, even if you think about what is his upside, let's evaluate player development of unskilled players. The Bulls have a pretty good organization, how has Joakim Noah's offensive skill set come around? The same for the Thunder and Ibaka? I'm just not sold on how good he can be starting at zero. With Morris, I have the body, energy, and a solid skill set for an incoming rookie big man. It is a workable situation. I think it would be a workable situation with Trey Thompkins and even Nikola Vucevic. For me, I need the big guys who I know work hard and have a solid skill set to be off the board before I start going after projects.
As far as the Supersonics pick, he was 10th in the draft. The "Guy you think was from France", might be Nicola Mirotic, who is Serbian but possibly fits that description other than being from France. He is long, not incredibly athletic, but a nice shooter. You could also be talking about Vesely (Czech, fits description). Oh, or you could be talking about Kevin Seraphin, who is very close to Biyombo. He was picked 17th, and the jury is still out, but was not much immediate help, though he was on a bad team.
My whole thing is, if you are a middle of the road play-off team, is someone in the mid to early lotto going to help you get over the hump? It is possibility, but the odds are not in your favor. I think it really is a case by case basis, and depends a lot on your window of opportunity. But, if you are a young team, looking to rebuild, doing so through drafting potential could really end up paying off. I think a lot of the Thunder's future success is based on what they did through the draft, and while it is easy to say that it is all Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, they made some other decent picks along the way that made their roster look like one with a lot of upside.
Teams tend to take baby steps to becoming a play-off team, and late lotto teams could be in either category. I am not sold on all lotto getting the more immediate help over potentially better players down the line, who could grow to play much more of a role on the team. This is one of the reasons why the draft is never an exact science, and why it is so difficult saying you should take more experienced players over raw talent. You should probably not risk too high of a pick, but as the lottery winds down, it could end up paying off.
You posted this as I was typing my response. I see what you are saying, but I am still not entirely convinced. Biyombo is 18 years old, would Morris have been able to do what he was doing at 18? He struggled his first couple of years at Kansas. He has turned into a legitimate late lotto to mid first round prospect, but you can not see how his upside will work out. As far as your examples, I think while they both may not be stars, they were both excellent value picks playing great roles. They are much more defense and rebounding than any viable offensive option, so no they are not Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett, never will be, but for the role that they play right now, they are looking like really valuable big guys on winning teams. You have to love the way they board and D up, especially for where their teams are and for where they were taken in the draft (9th and 24th).
Does Markieff Morris have more of a skill set than either of them? Is he going to help your team win more than Biyombo? I think that is very hard to tell. I am not saying he is going to stop working, but you and I know that a player has certain limitations, and that Biyombo does have the higher ceiling, even if it does at this point seem less achievable (he is after all a raw 18 year old). At this point, I know very little about Biyombo other than his statistics, age, physical attributes and skill set. But, if he and Markieff are both working their hardest, and Biyombo is longer, faster and more athletic, than I do not know if I like Markieff over him. Ibaka is developing on offense, it is after all his second year in the NBA, but he is not as raw offensively as one might think. That can be developed, but some things can not be. I think most NBA players work hard, and most end up developing legitimate skill sets. But are you not at least slightly impressed with an 18 year old with a 7'7 wing span, 9'3 standing reach who became a contributor on an ACB team? Might not want to gamble a top 10 pick (at this point I wouldn't either), but I could see seriously thinking things through upon seeing what he is made of.
Look at a team like Phoenix. This team is going to more than likely be in serious rebuilding mode. They have limited viable rebounding, especially at the 4 spot. This guy might be much more of a rebounder than Markieff, it is definitely a possibility, I think based on where they both were. You may have to wait, but Phoenix will have time in the rebuilding process. I am not saying it is a certainty, but it is a possible scenario to think about. You already took a Robin Lopez over a Serge Ibaka, was that the right move? Time will tell, but right now Ibaka looks much better.
I think he is talking about Seraphin. The general belief people had about him was that he would stay in Europe ad play there for 2 or 3 years and develop into a good player. Although he went straigt to Washington to play and will likely never achieve his full potential.