if you were the cavs and ended up with the first pick who do you choose to start your rebuilding process and future without lebron james
1.do you take a franchise type talent in perry jones but who motor comes into question?
2. do you take a all star talent in kyrie irving ?
3. do you take d will great all around player more of a small 4?
4. or do you take the home town kid jared sullinger a carlos boozer type talent ?
I definitely take Kyrie Irving. Sure thing, good to start out with a point, that would make me feel more comfortable as the Cavs GM moving forward.
(and can we not call Derrick Williams "d will" please?)
I'd say they take the best player available, no-one is on the roster long term enough or is of a high enough standard to really stop them drafting anyone at this moment and most of the roster or potential draftees can play more than one position maybe apart from the PG's.
At the moment I'd favour them taking Perry Jones or Kyrie Irving if they get the top pick, Sullinger hasn't been rated number 1 on any major mock yet so it may be a bit of a reach for him. If the talent is very equal then they could always look for a slight trade down and see what pieces they could get in exchange.
You take Barnes if he declares, because he's got all the talent in the world but just needs a bit more time to sort things out. The most important thing about him is that he has a very high motor, which I always stress is the most important thing in turning a franchise around. Irving as a pass-first PG will need more talent than the Cavs can give him to succeed. An undersized 4 won't be the answer because losing teams need to defend well to turn things around, if they focus on scoring they become the Warriors of late. Perry Jones wouldn't work because again, motor is important. Jared Sullinger is another undersized 4 defensively who lacks the potential to play on the perimeter.
If you're starting from scratch, Barnes is the ideal #1 pick, the fact that he isn't there just yet actually works in his favor, because you know he'll work hard the year you get him, but you also know he needs time to grow so the team will get another top 5 pick most likely while he develops, setting them up for long-term success, unlike what happened with Lebron, who turned them around too quickly and meant not enough time was spent at the bottom to acquire the requisite talent to win a title in the long run.
Barnes isn't really in the mix to be a top pick at the moment but if he declared then he could be a bargain pick up if he falls down the draft. If Cleveland could get another lottery pick from somewhere then getting Barnes with that would be a great idea.
Irving may not have the players around him when he is drafted but you get them down the road, with a potentially elite PG in place you have a great building block and can then base subsequent draft picks on players he can make better. Or he makes someone on the rooster a better player eg CP3 with David West, Hickson could be the guy who Irving could help become a better player perhaps?
for a team as bad as the Cavs those are 4 big ?. They need extreme athletes that can come in and compete. B.Scott has improved both of the teams he has coached in the 2nd year. 1st with the Nets they had a losing year the first year then he made them into a Great team that went to back2back final. He (B.Scott) wants a game changer for his offense(princeton) to work. I say A.Jamison/& 14mill trade exemption for AI and EBrand. Then Draft K.Irving.
They may not make it to the finals but 5-8 seed competing for playoff spots with some cap relief. or they could make the same trade & draft P.Jones. with Mo/AI/P.Jones/E.Brand/AV
The only problem is taking on all that $. But when you this bad & have a Finals Caliber coach you have to take chances.
Or draft P.Jones/ keep A.Jamison let his contract come off the books the same year CP3 will be a Free Agent and you never know he could come to Clev with his old coach.
Or Draft Irving/ free up some cash & sign D.West who will opt out of his contract this year. What ever option they chose they can rebound quickly.
Okay Barnes might not be worth the number one pick in theory, but in practice, this is a very weak draft. There's a reason he was consensus #1 coming out of high school, the talent is there, he's just slow out of the gate. With the current generation, I feel like it's easier to get a very talented PG than a swingman with Barnes' potential.
The thing with Irving is, alone he won't turn the Cavs around, they need to sit in the bottom for a while, so in my opinion they draft for work ethic and potential, things that will let them eventually right the ship by getting the talent and not giving up. They could always draft the best PG of the next draft if they stick around the cellar with Barnes; Rivers, Davis, Gilchrist would all be steals, and if they draft Barnes there's a good chance one of those three would be available.
No matter what pick they end up with, I just feel like Barnes would be a sound investment; small-town kid, good head on his shoulders, seems humble and intelligent, raised with good values. Perfect fit for a small town, and again, has star potential if he keeps working hard, which is one of his main characteristics.
^^^^^^^ my only ? is does B.Scott want to wait & lose 2 years in a row. & is Barnes really that bad were people have him being drafted in 2nd rnd on some boards (I never saw play this year, just heard about his struggles). As far as elite athleticisim is concerned it only gets harder with NBA quality players on a nightly basis.
Let me tell you this much.
Perry Jones or Irving will be the pick. There is about a 5% chance barnes goes number 1, thats only if he really improves second half and looks better in workouts then PJIII. And there is a 0% chance Derrick Williams goes number 1. Only if NBAdraft.net gets the number 1 pick in the draft will that happen. And Jared Sullinger? Really? REALLY? Should I start bringing up the similarities to Hansbrough. Calling him Boozer is laughable, boozer has such a complete game with his one-on-one fadeaways and stuff. Sullinger just camps in the lane and goes up over weak white big 10 bigmen.
Hickson is starting to pick it up and will probably be the starter by the end of this season and all of next. Take Irving.
I've made a point of watching every UNC game I can, from what I've seen Barnes has lacked confidence and needs to be fed the ball a bit more, he needs a green light to really play well. Barnes creates his own shot well enough, he just hasn't been finishing well, a bit more time and those shots will start to fall against this level of competition, and with hard work, the same will happen with the NBA. He's really not as bad as people are making him out to be, second round is laughable, he's still a potential #1 pick in my opinion, I think UNCs poor PG play has been the main reason for his struggle, rather than any major shortcoming by Harrison.
Byron Scott is not the right coach for a rebuilding franchise, he was a gamble by the Cavs to entice Lebron to stay, if he doesn't want to stick around and lose he has no business being with the Cavs, because lose is all they'll be doing for a while. They'd be better off hiring Mike Woodson for the rebuilding, and then re-hiring Scott when all the pieces are in place; although, he might be in LA by then.
I think you easily take Kyrie. Perry and Barnes are not franchise players right now and can't even lead there college team plus they dont make others better. With Kyrie you know he can get his own shot plus he can make others better so he has more of a impact on the team then Jones or Barnes
Another thing is Undersized means nothign anymore. The NBA is full of undersized players and Sullinger is 6'9 with very long arms so him being so called " undersized" means even less
So Far NBA scouts still feel Barnes can be a number one pick. Fans might not think so but fans aren't the one's who draft the players. Personally i wouldnt draft him number one but im not a NBA owner
Boozer didnt always have that complete game. He didnt come in and be a Allstar from year one. And he didn't dominate like Sullinger did as a Freshman either
Still, show me the differences between Sullinger and Hansbrough.
Acting like its sure fire that Sullinger's career will mirror Boozers is a joke.
I disagree that undersized means nothing anymore. I'm not sure about Sullinger's wingspan, but take another undersized forward taking the league by storm at the moment; Blake Griffin. He is undersized to play the power forward in the modern NBA; while he completes highlight dunks and other marvels at the offensive end, a long PF will frustrate his efforts to get his shot off; I noticed this particularly watching him against Aldridge, and Gasol. Also, both of these players had no trouble posting him up and going to work; Blake couldn't defend without leaving his feat and risking a foul, and hence a big weakness in the defensive line. Now, Blake is still a great player, and will bring the franchise a lot of success in Clipper terms, but I'm not as high on him simply for the fact that he is undersized and will struggle against the Garnetts, Gasols and Aldridges you'll find on championship calibre teams.
Just my 2c, this will be a very interesting draft year, with no clear frontrunner, much like the MVP race. Got a UNC game set to record tomorrow, will have a close look at Barnes again and see what progress he's made since he last played.
There is no frontrunner. The fact that Jones is considered that guy is evidence enough.
How exactly is it a joke?..You must not remember boozer as a freshman. 13pts 6 reb. No real post moves but was strong. Sullinger leading a team to number one ranking while getting double teammed every single game and in the Player of the year topic. Good midrange and post moves while being a very good rebounder and long arms at 6'9. I can't find one person that questions that he will be a good player. even Drafteexpress ( who you're Boy BTPH respects) says he will contibute from day 1 on the NBA level. So what do you you base you're opinion on?
His size?.bigger than Millsap with longer arms?
Athletic ability? same as Boozer if not better
Jumper? Much better than Boozer at the same stage
Strength? Stronger then boozer at the same stage
Ability to dominate? Every Colege Coach thathas been interviewed Says He's the most skilled big man they have face in many years
When they compare Rebounding rate he's right up there with Love and wayyyy ahead of Boozer at the same stage
He is double teamed EVERY SINGLE game.
Those guys frustrates long PF as well. every thing you named that Undersized PF's have with those guys Taller PF have the same problems. 6'9 with a 7'1 wingspan isn't undersized by the way. Cousins is 6'11 and he has more problems vs those guys then a guy like Scola.
do you know the top Scoring/rebounding Power forwards are undersized? And the worst ones are the ones who have the Prototype size
Cousins was double teamed every single game.
Again, Boozer was a best case scenario. A 2nd round pick that developed a nice NBA career. You are acting as if everyone in Boozer's sitatuion succeeds. And all your arguments are "ask any nba coach/gm/scout/player/website", i dont care. I dont need to ask them. Because i dont know them. What i do know is, Sullinger is just like Hansbrough. "Hes a good rebounder, and his motor makes up for his size and athletism". This just doesnt work. You are saying he is going to be Millsap or Boozer, when they were both guys who werent high picks who improved greatly more than anyone expected at the next level. For Millsaps and Boozers, there are countless amounts of guys who didnt work out. And Sullinger will be a lotto pick. But, that means nothing, as Hansbrough showed. His game is all in the paint, and those guys dont translate when they arent physically impressive or dont have outside shooting.
No one klnows what his worst or best case is including me so i'm not gonna even pretend to act liek i know. Its all Opinion with zero facts at this point until he actually plays inthe NBA. Like i said before just like many players he can improve in areas he isn't strong at ( by the way he can shoot so i'm not sure what you are gettign that from, thats pretty much known with scouts he just doesn't because he doesn't need to on this team just like Blake didn't need to shoot jumpers when he was in college and many other big men who could dominate in the paint)
You gotta be kidding us with the Hansbrough comparison Urbanover. I go to Penn State so I have had the chance to watch a lot of OSU games cuz they're always on the Big Ten network and this kid is legit. Sure he goes up against smaller opponenets a lot but who doesn't in college?? That's why it is college and not the NBA. He has reallllllly good post moves, knocks down jumpers, rebounds like a dam machine, comes up clutch, and has shown very good leadership ability. This kid is going to be a 15-9 type player his rookie season and no doubt will reach 20-10 before long. Laid down the crack pipe and light up the green then watch Sullinger and tell me he looks like Psycho-T, Urbanover.
Blake is 6ft10. That is not generous he is 6ft10. He is not undersized he is big for the position. Look at him on the court. Blake is not shorter than many guys. We all know he is one of the strongest guys in the L. Dude is not undersized at all. We will see what Sullinger does against NBA atheletes and strength. He will not be the bully,beast out there. Hansborough was not OK he was a beast in college. As you can see NBA is a whole different Ball game.
The thing is it is vert easy to negate a athlete when you are strong down low and you body into them. That stops them from jumping high to block you're shot. On top of that how much do These NBA athletes block shots?..the most is about 2blks a game and only about seven do that and only one plays PF. Another thing is lower body strength. Many NBA players arent very strong in there lower body which you can see by looking at there legs or see how easy they get moved off the block, which is why a player like Boozer can dominate more athletic Power forwards ( have ya'll seen his legs?..They are like Tree trunks) Tyler was Compared on tv because Sullinger hustles like him. Thats where the similarities end. Sullinger is very skilled and has been since his Soph year in HS. even then he was considered a top 5 big man reguardless of class in HS and as a JR dominated Cousins, Favors, And Jeremy Tyler( not that it matters just making a point of what he does against bigger players with skills) Will he struggle in the NBA as rookie, yes just like all big men but anyone who has watched him knows he adjust his game when he cant do the things he like to do and that he has Range on his jumper as well as a couple of counter moves. Like ive said in many post SKILLS is wayyyyy more important then athletic ability or height. Tyler dominated College but kbnow one ever said he was very skilled, just out worked anyone who he played against while being avrage as far as skills
Millsap was also a 2nd round pick going 47th in 2006 so potentially taking an undersized guy in the top 3 is another matter entirely. Maybe like teams have moved to more smallball line ups then more undersized guys will become the norm, a lot of so called undersized guys are much stronger than tall lean players so can also muscle the taller guy out of the paint and they also have a lower centre of gravity to help them.
I quite liked what Jjonz said about the Jamieson and exception for Brand and Iggy, it fills up Cleveland's cap but they get a ton of experience and if they could draft a young prospect they could still compete whilst the prospect develops. Philly might be loathe to move Iggy without picks but Jamieson could take Brand's role saving a year on their respective deals and with the cap cleared then Rod Thorn and Coach Collins can really reshape that roster.
David West could well be a highly sought after FA if we assume that Melo will end up in NY and with several teams having established PF's in place or young prospects being developed then his number of potential homes may not be that huge if he moves on from NOH. Apparently Hoopshype reported yesterday that David West was just going to see out this season and then consider whether to opt out which is quite refreshing in today's game. But with NOH being NBA owned can they offer the sort of contract that another team may dangle at David West or someone may decide to slightly overpay for his services.
With David West turning 31 this summer, it may well be his last chance of a big contract and with the likes of CP3 being an FA in 2012 then teams may try to snare West a year earlier and hope to get CP3 in 2012 as West and CP3 have been such a solid combo since CP3 was drafted. The flip side is that David West may decide to opt in this summer and wait to 2012 knowing that lots of teams will have salary space.
Yeah being undersized isn't a slight in today's NBA game as long as you have skill. they maynot alway get drafted higher then the taller more athletic players but they tend to end up becoming better players and less likely to be bust compared to the other type of big athletic players. I'm very interested in what David West decides to do this summer because i know in the back of his mind he is wondering if CP3 will stay and if he isn't then it makes no sense to resign with N.O. Im sure they will be having a nice long conversation
I'm still think Kyrie,Barnes, and Perry stay.Possibly even Sullinger after his comments to the coaches about staying. If all 4 stay, I take Terrence Jones, but I have a feeling Sullinger is going to have a hard time staying out of the draft when he is told he'll most likely be the number 1 pick to hometown Cleveland because Kyrie and Perry are staying at school. Just my thoughts, I've had Barnes as staying 2 years since before the season started.
Actually Blake is undersized for the 4, he came in at 6'10 with shoes but somehow was 6'8.5 w/o. So he's probably closer to 6'9.5 as you usually tend to gain an inch with shoes, and his arms were a measily 6'11.25, so yeah, he was fairly undersized. He makes up for his lack of height/length with strength and athleticism though. Not like its a big deal in todays NBA. Actually probably makes it easier as smaller guys have began to get much more leeway than the bigger cats. Not allowed to just be bigger than somebody anymore, otherwise its a foul. Part of the reason we see so many young guards attacking the rim so good, yet can't hit a j to save their lives. Because they know they'll get the call if they slam into a big and fall down.
LAKE SHOW- you hit on the head. Its our opinions. Could i be wrong? ofcourse, but My opinion is Sullinger wont be an NBA force. Yours is different, and i respect it for what it is.
Now, "He has reallllllly good post moves, knocks down jumpers, rebounds like a dam machine, comes up clutch, and has shown very good leadership ability"
And which of these things wasnt true about Hansbrough in College? dont say jumpers cuz Hans was a better midrange shooter than Sullinger.
let alone the thing that Sully will be a great pick&pop player and there would be no suprises in three four years to see him shooting nba 3s consisten and you know he isn't going to have any problems because of size.
Hansbrough didn't have post moves anywhere near that of Sullinger (and he still doesn't), and it took Hansbrough 3-4 years to develop his jumper while Sullinger comes in as a Freshman with a solid shot. And I don't know what's not to like about being clutch, rebounding really well, and being a leader.
You are just saying stuff that is false as it is true.
Hansbrough had post moves. I know its hard to remember now, but there was a time when he was AWESOME at the collegiate level, and he definitely had post moves.
And SUllinger DOESNT HAVE A JUMPER. i dont know where this rumor started, but its not true.
he has post moves like I play defense on the playground.....his post move is put his shoulder down like a bull and hope he gets fouled.....Sullinger is SOOOO much more talented then Hansborough its not even worth talking about...
Sullinger is SOOOO much more talented then Hansborough its not even worth talking about...
Then why was Hansbrough putting up better numbers than Sullinger in college?
that always means everything too....
Well you said hes more talented. In what ways? Post moves? seriously, do you honestly believe his unathletic 6 9 frame is going to work magic with those moves on NBA bigs? give me a break. He needs to establish a legit Jumper before he is nba ready.
I remmeber Tyler and Tyler didnt have a jumper. You must not watch Sullinger much because every scouting report and fans that watch him knows he has a jumper. Do you remember Tyler in college as a freshman?..His move was put shoulder down or out hustle you. You';re comparing Sullinger to the Fourth year Tyler which is a very good compliment in it self since Sullinger is only a FRESHMAN. with more post moves and a much better jumper then Tyler had. Tyler put up numbers on a Ok UNC team. Sullinger is doing it on the number one team in the nation. I think that migh be a tad bit different. I do know scouts dont see things the same way because Tyler wasn't even considered a first round pick as a freshman and Sullinger is considered a top 5 pick right now. It ok if one person thinks he isn't. Im sure there is one person out there that thinks Sullinger sucks or Kobe isn't that good, or Lamar Odom is really a D leauge talented player
what have you seen from psycho t that screams athletic to you??? and Sully has a perimeter game.....he doesn't use it because he doesn't need to.....saw him cross up Tristan Thompson and hit a 17 footer in the final seconds to beat the number one HS team in the country last year....after he took it coast to coast in 10 seconds after he got the defensive rebound....
Yeah just like the unathletic Boozer or Millsap or How Tim Duncan wasn't the greatest of athletes. There are more bust that are Tall and athletic then there are skilled 6'9 guys by the way. Hassan Whiteside is pretty athletic isnt he?..JaVell MCgee is tall and very athletic yet he isn't a top 10 center in todays NBA where there isnt that many good centers. Point being that you dont have to be tall or athletic to be good int he NBA. The top scores and rebounders happen to be so called undersized and not out of this world athletic for there position
You can't fault him for not thinking Sullinger can't shoot because he Obviously hasn't watched as much of him as the rest of us and the scouts have who all say he has a jumper. You can't blame a guy for not believing in something that he hasn't seen yet
Urban, as midwestbballscout said, Hansbrough just put his shoulder into the defender and went up strong in college and does the same in the NBA. Sure he could hit a baby hook here or there, but the post moves I have seen out of Sullinger have been BETTER than what I saw out of Cousins last yr (that's saying something.) Also, don't let Sullinger's big frame fool you cuz the dude is pretty dam athletic and can run the floor when needed, and as Lake Show pointed out, skill/IQ > athleticism.
he seems like a fat ass but I've seen him wear out plenty of guys that look in way better shape than him....
^^^ lol agreeed. when you first see him he doesn't look like he's qucik or can jump then he out runs you down the floor( seen him out run every big man he has guarded down the floor this season including J.Johnson last night) and then he drop steps or gets a reverse dunk and you think " he shouldn't be doing that with that weight. The scary thing is he is already considered the best or one of the best three players in the nation yet he's only 18 and still learning and can be in better shape.Ohio state lost the player of the year and Sullinger stepped in and made this team not only better but the number 1 team in the country
Urban, sit down, LakeShow has you beat. Sullinger will be able to contribute at the NBA level immediately, you are comparing him to a player that doesn't even have a similiar game, Sullinger is all finesse, he has old school post moves, great footwork and while he does need to lose some weight, is very strong and can bang with most guys and he has shown he will not back down no matter who he is playing. Hansborough never showed the ability to hit the three pointer in college, ever atleast consistently for that matter, Sullinger remains down low for most of the game but has shown the ability to knock down a three pointer (believe he is 3-8) and that means he can only get better in that area. Hansborough was all energy and hustle, he out hustled guys because of his high motor and because he was so crazy, most of the time it worked, Sullinger at this point has a much better post game then Tyler considering the fact he never really had much of one to begin with and a comparable jump shot to Senior Year Tyler, while Sullinger is a freshman. Sullinger in his freshman year has lead a team to a number one ranking, if you put Hansborough in his freshman year on this Ohio State team are you going to tell me that they would have the same record? Absolutely not, Sullinger has shown the ability to flat out dominate and teams gameplans are to try and stop him and he is constantly the main focus of the defense and is always double teamed. To say he will only be as good as Hansborough or not be a good NBA player is foolish because in your mind he is "unathletic" or "undersized" because many players have shown the ability to play in the NBA and have good/great NBA careers even if they are unathletic or undersized and its because they have something called talent and skill and its a shame you can't realize that.
Gonna be an uphill battle for ya Urban. May as well just convert and jump on the Sullinger bandwagon with the rest of us.
Naw he shouldnt jump on the bandwagon if he feels that way about Sullinger. who knows he may end up being right. sullinger may come into the NBA and end up Like Sean May ( a player who i thought would be very good in the NBA and have a Boozer type Career) Because may was Skilled although not as Skilled as a freshman. the reason im High on him is not too many Guys Come in as freshmen at his size and Dominate. I can only think of one of recent note and thats Kevin Love. All the other bigs were Big Bigs. Even the undersized guys in the NBA didn't dominate like Sullinger has as a freshman. I actually wasn't as high on him untill the end of his Soph year. I kept hearing how Dominate this kid was and how he destroyed Cousins and Favors, Tristain Thompson (when he was ranked the number one player in his class at the time). Once i watched him play i knew why people kept saying how good he was and then when i watched him totally dominate Jeremy tyler after Tyler was killing every big man he had faced that summer i was fully sold on this guys future
LAKE SHOW, good point right about me, but generally, the fact that this turned into an argument comparing Sullinger to Duncan is why i chose not to jump back in.
I dont think hes going to be good in the NBA. And if you all disagree, thats fine with me.
above me*** not about me. As in your last post.
Who is comparing Sullinger to Duncan?..My point is you can dominate without being very athletic. I used Duncan as a example to show no one can really use not being very athletic or tall as a arguement for a player not being able to do well int he NBA when players before him have done it without being athletic or tall
That is the floor for Sullinger no doubt. I think he will work harder to achieve a lot more at the pro level than Sean May but if he doesn't...
No one. It was just Urban's scapegoat lol
The bottomline is...you are talking about guys arent athletes, but your example was "People thought Tim Duncan wasnt an athlete"
Tim Duncan was a sure first no.1 overall pick that everyone had pegged as a franchise big man. Sullinger isnt even close to that. So either way, the comparison is meaningless. Im not blaming lack of athletism for Sullinger's inabilities at the next level, morely his skill set. He is entirely under the basket. He wont be able to do that at the next level.