Gordon Haywards RIDICULOUS Max Offer from Hornets (Lance still on market)

Lance comes with issues both on and off the court. Hayward, by all indications, is the complete opposite. Sure Hayward makes mistakes on the court but not in the fashion Lance does with his downright stupid play at times trying to be fancy/spectacular. Teams are hesitant right now because if these reasons, but the way this market is going he is still going to get paid. There is no denying his talents.  If he matures on and off the court he will no question be a better player than Gordon Hayward. 

Chicago would be the perfect place for Lance. The culture there would help him a lot. Indiana obviously had a troubled locker room and he could possibly be a main reason for that, but he had some help from PG, Hibbert, and the coach can’t without some blame in that culture he allowed. I heard one analyst say Vogel went from a top 7 coach in the league to just another guy. I’m not sure how good Vogel is but Thibs could change a young 23 year old who is a really talented versatile player. I think they will get out bid, cause eventually he will get paid, but Lance and Chicago would be a good fit. 

Lance comes with issues both on and off the court. Hayward, by all indications, is the complete opposite. Sure Hayward makes mistakes on the court but not in the fashion Lance does with his downright stupid play at times trying to be fancy/spectacular. Teams are hesitant right now because if these reasons, but the way this market is going he is still going to get paid. There is no denying his talents.  If he matures on and off the court he will no question be a better player than Gordon Hayward. 

Chicago would be the perfect place for Lance. The culture there would help him a lot. Indiana obviously had a troubled locker room and he could possibly be a main reason for that, but he had some help from PG, Hibbert, and the coach can’t without some blame in that culture he allowed. I heard one analyst say Vogel went from a top 7 coach in the league to just another guy. I’m not sure how good Vogel is but Thibs could change a young 23 year old who is a really talented versatile player. I think they will get out bid, cause eventually he will get paid, but Lance and Chicago would be a good fit. 

Were in the softest era the NBA has ever seen. Where Max contracts are handed out like candy to anybody and players are expected to be paid like that, and players want to be buddy buddy and play with each other instead of against each other. *cough Melo cough*

Were in the softest era the NBA has ever seen. Where Max contracts are handed out like candy to anybody and players are expected to be paid like that, and players want to be buddy buddy and play with each other instead of against each other. *cough Melo cough*

only if the had enough to get both players they would be a threat in the east.

neal,henderson,bismack,mkg,luke, could all be moved in any combo and or along with picks.

I think they can land lance still yes they overpayed for him terribly but if hes worth around 10 to 12 hornets have to pay extra because their not a free agent destination.

hornets will be phone to watch if lance wants 10 mill I would find a way to get it for him you already took Hayward no noteable star will come why not get lance you now have one up on the pacers.

only if the had enough to get both players they would be a threat in the east.

neal,henderson,bismack,mkg,luke, could all be moved in any combo and or along with picks.

I think they can land lance still yes they overpayed for him terribly but if hes worth around 10 to 12 hornets have to pay extra because their not a free agent destination.

hornets will be phone to watch if lance wants 10 mill I would find a way to get it for him you already took Hayward no noteable star will come why not get lance you now have one up on the pacers.

 The term max scares people off, but he isn’t getting 20 million plus. He is only getting 15-16 million a year which does sound a little high for him, but that is what it takes to steal him away from another team. If they offered what most believe he is worth, 11- 13 million, then the Jazz match it and the Hornets miss out on a really good player. The Hornets are also in a small market and those teams typically have to over pay for guys as well. I really like Hayward as a player and even though the Hornets did over pay him by a couple million a season that is what it would have taken to get him away from the Jazz and they still match it as well. 

 The term max scares people off, but he isn’t getting 20 million plus. He is only getting 15-16 million a year which does sound a little high for him, but that is what it takes to steal him away from another team. If they offered what most believe he is worth, 11- 13 million, then the Jazz match it and the Hornets miss out on a really good player. The Hornets are also in a small market and those teams typically have to over pay for guys as well. I really like Hayward as a player and even though the Hornets did over pay him by a couple million a season that is what it would have taken to get him away from the Jazz and they still match it as well. 

 totally agree with OP. Just as important- no way is Deng getting that contract, even though I’d argue he’s a better player than both Hayward and Parsons. Why? Because he’s older.

 totally agree with OP. Just as important- no way is Deng getting that contract, even though I’d argue he’s a better player than both Hayward and Parsons. Why? Because he’s older.

 Hayward isn’t a max player but the market place is dictating what he is getting and the Jazz will match, also Hayward is better than some want to give him credit, he is the type of player that makes the game easier for his teammates, he sees the floor well, passes well and is just a smart player. I’d love having him as a teammate he makes his teammate better and that is worth alot.

 Hayward isn’t a max player but the market place is dictating what he is getting and the Jazz will match, also Hayward is better than some want to give him credit, he is the type of player that makes the game easier for his teammates, he sees the floor well, passes well and is just a smart player. I’d love having him as a teammate he makes his teammate better and that is worth alot.

 I can’t agree with your larger point. Your post shifts from a "overpay" post to a "Lance v. Gordon" post. These should be analyzed separately.

1. Overpay. I posted on this recently. Gordon has not demonstrated the ability to be "the man." As the offense has focused on him (and defenses have keyed in on him) he has not been able to make the jump the way Paul George did. He will never be a #1 option on a contending team and, to me, $16M/year is too much to pay for a guy that can’t lead the way. Still, paying him $10M is an obvious bargain for her services and most people think $12-13M is a reasonable middle ground. Unfortunately for the Jazz, they did not accurately project the RFA market of 2014 when negotiating his contract and their unwillingness to pay him $13M/year will likely cost them $12M over the next 4. Not a huge shocker.

Because of their cap space the Jazz will almost certainly match. Or, at the very least, they will do a sign and trade w/Cha. Many people project a big sign/trade deal here w/the Jazz walking away with several assets. IMO if a sign and trade happens it will be for one player (probably Zeller) and a lotto-protected first round pick. Charlotte will not trade MKG + Zeller + multiple picks to overpay Hayward as some have suggested. This will be a small S&T or a simple match by Utah.

2. Gordon v. Lance. Personally, I take Gordon every time and the erratic behavior is not the main reason.

First, I think Hayward is better offensively. Hayward averaged 16/5/5 with 2.8 tov on .413/.304/.816 shooting. Lance averaged 14/7/5 with 2.7 tov on .491/.352/.711. Advanced stats show Hayward’s had the edge in PER (16.2 to 14.7), while Lance had the edge in TS% (.564 to .520).

When considering these stats Hayward appears to be the superior player outside of shooting, where Lance held a clear edge in 2014. However, when analyzing those numbers, I would still bet on Hayward’s shooting going forward. Hayward was the focal point of his offense, which he clearly could not handle and it showed. However, in years passed he was better as the #2 or #3 option with TS% numbers of .564 or better and PERs of 15.5 and 16.8 the previous two years. On the other hand, Lance’s year was his best to date by far. Lance’s previous best TS% was .530 and his best PER was 11.8. 

I think Hayward’s efficiency will improve when he moves back to his natural role as the #2 or #3 option offensively. His high productivity will likely remain as well. Also, I have concerns that Lance’s numbers will not hold up if the focus of the offense shifts to him. That is a tough transition that few are able to make and I see no reason why Lance, who in his best year averaged 14.1 ppg could make the jump. 

Second, people are overrating Lance on D and underrating Hayward. Lance played an important role on one of the league’s top defenses in the very weak East. Hayward, on the other hand, was an above average defender on one of the NBA’s worst defensive teams in the stacked West. Still, Hayward averaged 1.4 steals and .5 blocks while Lance averaged just .7 steals and .1 blocks. Lance gets a lot of credit for superior athleticism and defensive ability, but I’m really not so sure he’s better than Hayward. He was certainly in an elite defensive system, but Hayward was more productive on D. In any case, I don’t see a big gap here.

Thus, I disagree that Lance should be paid more than Hayward, though I do agree that $16M a year is too much to pay for either. I also agree that Lance, like Gordon will be getting a big payday this offseason due to market dynamics. 

 I can’t agree with your larger point. Your post shifts from a "overpay" post to a "Lance v. Gordon" post. These should be analyzed separately.

1. Overpay. I posted on this recently. Gordon has not demonstrated the ability to be "the man." As the offense has focused on him (and defenses have keyed in on him) he has not been able to make the jump the way Paul George did. He will never be a #1 option on a contending team and, to me, $16M/year is too much to pay for a guy that can’t lead the way. Still, paying him $10M is an obvious bargain for her services and most people think $12-13M is a reasonable middle ground. Unfortunately for the Jazz, they did not accurately project the RFA market of 2014 when negotiating his contract and their unwillingness to pay him $13M/year will likely cost them $12M over the next 4. Not a huge shocker.

Because of their cap space the Jazz will almost certainly match. Or, at the very least, they will do a sign and trade w/Cha. Many people project a big sign/trade deal here w/the Jazz walking away with several assets. IMO if a sign and trade happens it will be for one player (probably Zeller) and a lotto-protected first round pick. Charlotte will not trade MKG + Zeller + multiple picks to overpay Hayward as some have suggested. This will be a small S&T or a simple match by Utah.

2. Gordon v. Lance. Personally, I take Gordon every time and the erratic behavior is not the main reason.

First, I think Hayward is better offensively. Hayward averaged 16/5/5 with 2.8 tov on .413/.304/.816 shooting. Lance averaged 14/7/5 with 2.7 tov on .491/.352/.711. Advanced stats show Hayward’s had the edge in PER (16.2 to 14.7), while Lance had the edge in TS% (.564 to .520).

When considering these stats Hayward appears to be the superior player outside of shooting, where Lance held a clear edge in 2014. However, when analyzing those numbers, I would still bet on Hayward’s shooting going forward. Hayward was the focal point of his offense, which he clearly could not handle and it showed. However, in years passed he was better as the #2 or #3 option with TS% numbers of .564 or better and PERs of 15.5 and 16.8 the previous two years. On the other hand, Lance’s year was his best to date by far. Lance’s previous best TS% was .530 and his best PER was 11.8. 

I think Hayward’s efficiency will improve when he moves back to his natural role as the #2 or #3 option offensively. His high productivity will likely remain as well. Also, I have concerns that Lance’s numbers will not hold up if the focus of the offense shifts to him. That is a tough transition that few are able to make and I see no reason why Lance, who in his best year averaged 14.1 ppg could make the jump. 

Second, people are overrating Lance on D and underrating Hayward. Lance played an important role on one of the league’s top defenses in the very weak East. Hayward, on the other hand, was an above average defender on one of the NBA’s worst defensive teams in the stacked West. Still, Hayward averaged 1.4 steals and .5 blocks while Lance averaged just .7 steals and .1 blocks. Lance gets a lot of credit for superior athleticism and defensive ability, but I’m really not so sure he’s better than Hayward. He was certainly in an elite defensive system, but Hayward was more productive on D. In any case, I don’t see a big gap here.

Thus, I disagree that Lance should be paid more than Hayward, though I do agree that $16M a year is too much to pay for either. I also agree that Lance, like Gordon will be getting a big payday this offseason due to market dynamics. 

 Hibbert and West is easier my friend. Attention is paid to the other players and not Lance. Thats b ball 101 he got open looks. I take Heyward. Along with his skills he wont kill team chemistry.

 Hibbert and West is easier my friend. Attention is paid to the other players and not Lance. Thats b ball 101 he got open looks. I take Heyward. Along with his skills he wont kill team chemistry.

Hayward is not a go to scorer, as you saw last year.  But with Big Al he would get a ton of wide open shots and would be a great fit.  He didn’t shoot great last year, but he is know as a shooter and he’s a great passer.  I feel a player like Stephenson is a fall back option on a high dollar short term contract, maybe a 2 year 13 million a year deal.  I just don’t trust Stephenson off court problems to give him a 4 year deal at 11 to 12 million and I surely wouldn’t give him a max contract.  He’s a modern day Ron Artest, very good player that can go off at any time and ruin your whole season.

Hayward is not a go to scorer, as you saw last year.  But with Big Al he would get a ton of wide open shots and would be a great fit.  He didn’t shoot great last year, but he is know as a shooter and he’s a great passer.  I feel a player like Stephenson is a fall back option on a high dollar short term contract, maybe a 2 year 13 million a year deal.  I just don’t trust Stephenson off court problems to give him a 4 year deal at 11 to 12 million and I surely wouldn’t give him a max contract.  He’s a modern day Ron Artest, very good player that can go off at any time and ruin your whole season.

 It’s strange that teams shy away from paying someone like Luol Deng $12 million or so a year yet will pay Hayward and Parsons $15 million a year upwards. I fully agree that a rookie max isn’t like a max to a 10 year veteran guy but it’s still a lot of money and on par with what John Wall, DMC are getting and onlty a bit below what someone like James Harden gets.

I’d have put Hayward at $48 to $50 million over 4 years personally but good luck to him for getting this offer.

You do wonder whether Charlotte have made a rod for their back as they can renew Kemba Walker this summer and he may chase a similar type deal and the much more proven Al Jefferson has a player option next summer and if he has another 20/10 season then he can legitimately look for a very large deal as Hayward would be on more than him.

 It’s strange that teams shy away from paying someone like Luol Deng $12 million or so a year yet will pay Hayward and Parsons $15 million a year upwards. I fully agree that a rookie max isn’t like a max to a 10 year veteran guy but it’s still a lot of money and on par with what John Wall, DMC are getting and onlty a bit below what someone like James Harden gets.

I’d have put Hayward at $48 to $50 million over 4 years personally but good luck to him for getting this offer.

You do wonder whether Charlotte have made a rod for their back as they can renew Kemba Walker this summer and he may chase a similar type deal and the much more proven Al Jefferson has a player option next summer and if he has another 20/10 season then he can legitimately look for a very large deal as Hayward would be on more than him.

Hayward won’t ever live up to a max, but I think he can live up to 12-13 if his shooting returns to 2nd year form. Plus he is a perfect role model as a player with no chance to ever disrupt chemistry. When you conisder no one is coming to Utah, its pretty easy to see why they match.

Hayward won’t ever live up to a max, but I think he can live up to 12-13 if his shooting returns to 2nd year form. Plus he is a perfect role model as a player with no chance to ever disrupt chemistry. When you conisder no one is coming to Utah, its pretty easy to see why they match.

 Hayward probably isn’t worth what he is going to be paid but the market is what is deciding that and the Jazz need Gordon to continue to move forward, Hayward isn’t a #1 option like everyone has been saying and I’m not sure how that will change this year but I do think it will change, I’m looking for Favors to improve and take more of a load offensively, Burks shouild get more shots this year, Kanter is a gunner and that should continue, he will be looking to shoot the 3 this year, and then Burke and Exum should be major offensive players since the ball will be in their hands alot. All that said, I see Gordon’s role as the leader but not necessarily as the guy that has to take the most shots on the team this year. New coach with a new system will alter how things are done, so I don’t think we know for sure how things will pan out but it should be an interesting year and hopefully it will be one of much development by these young players.

 Hayward probably isn’t worth what he is going to be paid but the market is what is deciding that and the Jazz need Gordon to continue to move forward, Hayward isn’t a #1 option like everyone has been saying and I’m not sure how that will change this year but I do think it will change, I’m looking for Favors to improve and take more of a load offensively, Burks shouild get more shots this year, Kanter is a gunner and that should continue, he will be looking to shoot the 3 this year, and then Burke and Exum should be major offensive players since the ball will be in their hands alot. All that said, I see Gordon’s role as the leader but not necessarily as the guy that has to take the most shots on the team this year. New coach with a new system will alter how things are done, so I don’t think we know for sure how things will pan out but it should be an interesting year and hopefully it will be one of much development by these young players.