This topic contains 28 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by 
Ghost01 12 years ago.
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 2:51am #57145
Ghost01ParticipantThis narrative that LeBron and Bosh are satisfied/impressed with Pat Riley’s "big" moves is one of the funniest ones I’ve ever read.
Even if these moves are enough to make LeBron want to stay, all that means is he’s not a very good evaluator of talent.
Mcroberts is fine, but he and Bosh playing side by side would be a defensive nightmare, and he isn’t anything special. Granger barely played on a team that was desparate for wings and was in contention.
I just find it hard to believe if LeBron wanted the team to improve, with all the names that have been brought up, Deng, Ariza, Gasol, even Gortat and Lowry near the beginning, that using all of your MLE on McBob and signing Danny Granger fit the mold of "improvements". LeBron, go back there if you like. Good luck beating the West champ with those two and broken down D Wade playing crunch time.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 3:26am #933223
Mr. HookShotParticipantIn initially thought you where talking about Wade and Bosh themselves 😉 But on this I agree with you, especially about the defense McRoberts is offering.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 3:26am #933092
Mr. HookShotParticipantIn initially thought you where talking about Wade and Bosh themselves 😉 But on this I agree with you, especially about the defense McRoberts is offering.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 4:37am #933244
Toronto16ParticipantCan we stop pretending that LBJ opted out because he wanted Riley to improve the team, and just admit he opted out because he wanted to get paid? Nothing wrong with it, he deserves it, but I wish the media would stop acting like fans are stupid.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 4:37am #933112
Toronto16ParticipantCan we stop pretending that LBJ opted out because he wanted Riley to improve the team, and just admit he opted out because he wanted to get paid? Nothing wrong with it, he deserves it, but I wish the media would stop acting like fans are stupid.
0- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 5:41am #933136
mixtape2003ParticipantHe wants a 2 year max contract from what I hear, which is not much more than the 2 years left on his contract he opted out of
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 5:41am #933268
mixtape2003ParticipantHe wants a 2 year max contract from what I hear, which is not much more than the 2 years left on his contract he opted out of
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 6:06am #933144
Ghost01ParticipantNo, if that was the only reason (and it very well may be) then there is no reason for him to stall. Yes they signed these 2 plugs, but legitimate veterans would be more inclined to listen to Miami if they had LeBron James on their roster signed to a max deal for 5 years.
If he is playing everyone, all he has done is hurt his team’s chance of improving. Going back there is a path to NBA hell. Playing in 2016 with Bosh and Wade getting paid in the mid to high teens will be a disaster if he wants to win more rings.
Even Cleveland, for all their management and ownership issues at least have players that have a window of improvement ahead of them.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 6:06am #933275
Ghost01ParticipantNo, if that was the only reason (and it very well may be) then there is no reason for him to stall. Yes they signed these 2 plugs, but legitimate veterans would be more inclined to listen to Miami if they had LeBron James on their roster signed to a max deal for 5 years.
If he is playing everyone, all he has done is hurt his team’s chance of improving. Going back there is a path to NBA hell. Playing in 2016 with Bosh and Wade getting paid in the mid to high teens will be a disaster if he wants to win more rings.
Even Cleveland, for all their management and ownership issues at least have players that have a window of improvement ahead of them.
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 7:28am #933172
mikeyvthedonParticipantWith precedent having been laid down that the Magic are giving Channing Frye 8 million per year and the Pistons are hooking Jodie Meeks 6.5 million per year, the market is pretty damn competitive, is it not? The "rumor" list is of players who are all in the double digit range, so they clearly were not viable options. Hell, Lowry and Gortat signed for 12 million per season. They may be younger than Dwyane Wade, but are they better? Even a banged up Wade is better than 80% of the leagues SG’s, and that is a low guess. For as bad as Chris Bosh apparently is at defense and rebounding, do the Cavs have a better big man who has been more durable? Think not.
Now, these two signings do not make your jaw drop. However, this was a team that stayed competitive starting Rashard Lewis. Josh McRoberts is not a worse defender than Rashard. Danny Granger signed for incredibly little, plus is less broken down than Shane Battier last season. To me, they are at least an improvement of depth over last years roster. They give you a couple of crafty vets who can potentially play around those three guys and I am not sure either is a starter. The roster still obviously needs to be filled out, which will be interesting with very little wiggle room left, but to say these guys spell doom is not necessarily accurate.
In the possibility of LeBron going to Cleveland is, who is to say the grass is greener there? It at least won’t be right away. Kyrie Irving is a fantastic player and Andrew Wiggins has huge potential, but they are so young! Andy Verajao has had a difficult time staying healthy, Tristan Thompson and Tyler Zeller are not bad, but definitely not Chris Bosh and Josh McRoberts (seriously, which is saying something). You would have to bank on a lot. On paper, it certainly would be LeBron’s most enticing team he had ever had in Cleveland. Their would be very little wiggle room cap wise, we have no idea how they would gel (If I remember correctly, Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters had issues last year) and they have no real postseason experience outside of LeBron and Verajao (if he is healthy). Upside, sure. Though, once again, a lot to bank on with still some spots that could potentially be pretty scary. Not to mention, you have to pay Kyrie, no guarantee you get Kevin Love and even if you get them (with probably having to give up Wiggins, Waiters, or both), those guys are not known for their defense.
I think "NBA hell" is a massive overreaction to what signing with the Heat for 3 years would be for LeBron. He would still have two guys who are among the better players at their positions and perennial All-Stars. They would be presumably looking to add more depth than they had last season, with the chemistry of their main players helping in a big way. This is a team that won the Eastern Conference pretty handily who is at least looking to get better, rather than generally standing pat and hoping for minimum signings to pay off like they did last season. Those signings didn’t pay off and they are trying to spend some to add a bit more depth. You have the Spurs and Clippers still strong, though if the Heat do somehow fill out the roster with a few more guys who are willing to take a pay cut, are they that far behind? No guarantee they will, though even still, if they keep that core intact, they compete.
They have to keep Dwyane Wade, yes, the same one who is clearly not himself. As much as you would like to say "hey, mind if you left the franchise that drafted you and carried on somewhere else", it is not going to happen. He is not going to get you 25 on most nights and is nowhere as dangerous driving to the rack. The guy is still at least near All-Star level if he is healthy. As much of an "if" as that may be, has he missed a lot of significant time in the play-offs? Chris Bosh is still one of the top big men in the league. Yes, I say big men. He should not be playing center, he has, they won two titles with him doing so. If they can get a two headed center to take up more minutes there, watch him do much better. Plus, in no way do I think he will be worse with McRoberts next to him as opposed to Rashard Lewis. That was much more of a defensive nightmare, even for as much as Rashard provided (which was a lot more than I expected).
PG will still be something that will be addressed. No more Mario the whipping boy (at least I have to believe he is gone). Norris Cole and Shabazz Napier do not inspire a ton of hope, though if you bring in the right pieces, they may not have to. It is way to short of a roster right now to completely write it off. Whereas, these other options full rosters give you a lot of question marks. Maybe they would be solved in the future, but this is the present. Does Cleveland present LeBron a better chance to compete next year than Miami? Maybe even in two years? Does he want to wait until he is 33 to hope they can? To gain the chemistry even Miami had difficulty with at times during their first few seasons?
There are much worse versions of "NBA hell" than LeBron would have signing with Miami if they bring back Wade and Bosh. Kevin Garnett’s last three seasons in Minnesota were "NBA hell". LeBron would at least would have an improved supporting cast with his all-star buddies. I would want to see what Cleveland does with Waiters before being incredibly gung-ho about returning. Even than, you are banking on a lot and will need to develop chemistry with a VERY young team. It would be interesting, though is it better than having two other perennial All-Stars you already know really well? That is a risk. Both of them are risks. Are you more comfortable going for potential and the unknown, or going with guys you have gone to 4 straight finals with? Even if you say "well, this current Miami group has no chance anymore", what makes the Cleveland group necessarily have that much more of one?
The issue I have with Cleveland "at least (having) players that have a window of improvement ahead of them" is that when will that finally make them a contending team? If LeBron can have two more years in Miami, I am guessing they absolutely will be in title contention if they keep Wade, Bosh and build around them. Plus, tell me why Cleveland would be so much better. It is really easy to only criticize without giving any viable alternatives, much less explaining as to why the other options are that much better. Saying LeBron is not a good evaluator of talent should at least come with what exactly would be better when it comes to competing for titles over these next three seasons.
0- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 8:02am #933186
Ghost01ParticipantViable alternatives would be all the teams interested in LeBron.
how do you build around bosh and Wade and LeBron when all of them are taking up the cap? Signing male believe players? Remember when they were getting Lowry and Gortat?
there was no alternative for Miami, that’s the point… He wanted them to improve and they couldn’t do it. These are MINOR imrpoveents. Cleveland or Phoenix would be better options. Yes they both are very young teams but you are severely overrating what Wade and Bosh are at the point. Wade took off 30 games and was still dead in the finals. Bosh is a catch and shoot 3 shooter. There isn’t anyone with sensible basketball thoughts that would rather player with Wade than Kyrie for the next 5 years. You can’t just say "Well the Heat couldn’t do any better so he has to go back because the Cavs are young. "
0- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 8:34am #933194
mikeyvthedonParticipantYou give nothing. Give me what the roster would look like on these teams with LeBron James and why that would make them better than the Heat. As far as the guys "just taking up the cap", these are two players who are still two of the best players at their position. This was a team that made the Finals last year, not LeBron’s teams in Cleveland. Their may be alternatives, but are these necessarily better alternatives to winning over these next 3 seasons? That is what this will be about. Kyrie Irving may be better than Dwyane Wade, but Chris Bosh is still a good big man. Though, to you he may be only a "catch-and-shoot three point shooter". Think you are underestimating what he does, exactly.
All you are saying is, "The Heat are not getting better with Bosh and Wade", when in actuality, they might be. Signing different players can improve things. Do rumors make things so? Gortat and Lowry being rumors, than signing for 12 million each, kind of does not give incredibly validity to those rumors. It was not going to happen. If you are going to say "all teams interested in LeBron" are better than what he will have with the Heat, than tell me why? Tell me why Miami has no chance of going back to the Finals or competing? Tell me why these other teams would be better and how they would incorporate LeBron and work around the cap to keep or add pieces? Don’t tell me Chris Bosh is a catch-and-shoot 3 point shooter, because that is just beyond ridiculous, lol. Like, there is hating on Bosh, but this is just another level.
These might be "imaginary players" right now, because they still have roster spots to fill. They did back in 2010, when they were more than willing to see what happened. The experiment may not have led to league domination, even if 4 finals trips and 2 titles are not bad. Just do not understand how Miami is completely done and that his going to these other teams will make them all that much better than what Miami could possibly do over the next 3 seasons. Anywhere he goes will have cap issues. Not to mention personnel issues and lack of experience. So, tell me how these teams are going to be better than the Heat. Instead of just telling me how bad the Heat are and that he has other options. We know that, just want to know why these other options are better and whether you can come up with more realistic scenarios than your "rumored" free agent signings were.
You are really good at talking about limitations and what is wrong. Most people can do that. Why not tell me what would make these other teams better than what Miami has, beyond ragging on Wade and Bosh? Tell me what improvements the teams as a whole would offer LeBron to make them superior contenders than Miami. Because that is what I am interested in. I know Miami will have limitations, they always did. They still have two guys who are awesome players and they at least have a chance to build more around them. Tell me what the other teams offer that make them so much better to do that with, rather than just ragging on why the Heat are worse options than any of them.
0- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 6:30pm #933407
Ghost01ParticipantWade and Bosh are not the best at their positions.
Yes the Heat made the Finals. So did LeBron’s team in Cleveland. The common denominator was the East sucked both years.
What exactly am I under estimating about Chris Bosh? His ability to be invisible in the NBA finals? 0 points in a game 7? Nothing against San Antonio in 2014? 2 point something rebounds a game against Indiana in 2013? Bosh is vastly overrated. He does a few things well, but largely at this point is helped by the fact he plays with LeBron. Wade wouldn’t be on anyone’s radar if he wasn’t playing with LeBron. Again, he sat out 30 games and was still a shell of whatever former self he was by the Finals.
Since you want answers so badly to prove your point about Miami’s past success, I will give it to you:
All you are saying is, "The Heat are not getting better with Bosh and Wade", when in actuality, they might be. Signing different players can improve things.
Who are they going to sign, with no cap space? They used their MLE on McRoberts. They have no other money to spend except annual MLEs.
If you are going to say "all teams interested in LeBron" are better than what he will have with the Heat, than tell me why?
Rockets – Harden/Howard better than Wade/Bosh
Cavs – Kyrie/Wiggins better than Wade/Bosh for next 5 years
Suns – Dragic/Bledsoe + 48 win team in the West is better that was barely over 50 with LeBron
Lakers – Assuming this means Melo too, Melo/Kobe better than Wade/Bosh
And again, before you say "There’s more to the Heat than Wade and Bosh". No. They are capped out. Any MLE/low level guys they sign he would have just as good a chance of signing with any other team.
Tell me why Miami has no chance of going back to the Finals or competing?
They have a chance to go back to the Finals because the East sucks. The Top 3 teams in the West are better than them, and I don’t see a scenario where they beat San Antonio or OKC with their current team.
Tell me why these other teams would be better and how they would incorporate LeBron and work around the cap to keep or add pieces?
Because they wouldn’t be paying Bosh and Wade 15-20 million over the next 4 years as each declines.
Don’t tell me Chris Bosh is a catch-and-shoot 3 point shooter, because that is just beyond ridiculous, lol. Like, there is hating on Bosh, but this is just another level.
Tell me one thing Chris Bosh does on an elite level. Is he a GREAT rebounder? GREAT defender? GREAT post player? No. No. No. Stop thinking about the past…this isn’t 2011 Bosh, just like it isn’t 2011 Wade. Maybe you accidently watched the 2011 Finals this June.
You then continue to harp on the past, on how the Heat won titles and how they put a team together in 2010. Yes, they filled around these guys in 2010, and for the millionth time, Wade and Bosh were better in 2010. If you are paying 3 stars, they have to be stars. Wade and Bosh are not stars in 2014. And AGAIN, that is the difference between the Heat and other teams flexibility going forward, the Heat are about to commit years and money to guys who simply don’t deserve the years or money they are going to receive.
And finally,
They still have two guys who are awesome players
This is high-comedy. Let me guess, Wade is going to be "healthy" next year?
0- Posted on: Wed, 07/09/2014 - 2:43am #933490
mikeyvthedonParticipantWell, he is only considering the Heat or Cavs, so I guess your "all teams interested in LeBron" do not get reciprocated interest. Houston may have two guys who are better players, but they would have to do magic to sign either Bosh or LeBron to a max deal, giving them also, next to no wiggle room to add players. Phoenix is also in the West, not to mention they would lose pieces of that 48 win team and have next to nothing inside. As bad as you think Chris Bosh is (he is an elite midrange shooter, by the way, who also can put the ball on the floor and spreads the floor. The guy has killed teams before, including guys who are considered great defenders. He gives you an offensive option few PF’s offer, while playing better defense than most, though he has had to be relegated out of position at times), he is much better than anyone Phoenix has in their front court. The Heat’s regular season record may not have been great, but to think that the Suns with LeBron automatically makes them better than Miami is not really realistic. You may feel it is, I don’t.
Now, since the Lakers seem to have slim to no chance, lets talk Cavs. Were you not the guy who incredibly disliked Andrew Wiggins as a prospect? Now he is a better option than a guy who averaged 19 ppg on 54.5% shooting last season? Yes, Dwyane Wade has been hurt. He was not good inthe Finals, maybe even terrible by his standards. However, Manu Ginobili was freaking awful in 2013, when he was hurt and had a productive 2014 Finals. Ginobili is 3 years older than Wade. To say their is not possibility Dwyane Wade could be healthy and moderately productive, well, their seems to be a way. Dwyane Wade actually shot better and averaged more points in the play-offs this year than he did last year, so, he is not dead yet.
High comedy is saying two perennial All-Stars who are still "among" (key word) the best at their position (name me all of the players better than they are. Especially on Cleveland, the one team LeBron is interested in going to) are "awesome players". High comedy is also saying "maybe you accidentally watched the 2011 Finals", which is the one they lost to Dallas. I guess bringing up 3 years ago makes you look more right than bring up one or two years ago? Man, they are not the same, but they are still really quite good. Plus, any team LeBron would go to would have cap issues, that is my point. He goes to Cleveland, their will be issues building around that team and a probable lack of depth. Same with anywhere he would go. Plus, to think that he would not have to go through the same process of gaining chemistry and learning to play with a team that he did with the Heat, now that is laughable.
I know the Heat have very little to use in cap space, that still didn’t necessarily stop them from gaining pieces around these guys to make two championship teams. 2013 was basically the same as 2012, they made a couple gambles that did not pay off. Still believe their are players out there who may be willing to take some cuts to try and win a title, though again, that is a gamble as well. As much as it is not fool proof, all of your scenarios are not either. Cleveland has a center who has constantly been injured, plus a front court that is not necessarily making teams tremble. Kyrie Irving is a great player, but an abysmal defender. Andrew Wiggins has immense potential and it seems LeBron would be a huge step in getting the best from him. However, he is young and the play-offs is a different game.
Odds are, whatever team he signs with, LeBron will have an opt out after two or three seasons. If he has a two out of three chance with Miami to win a title, I think he goes with the team he is familiar with an has won with. As much as you seem to deny it and beyond the obvious that Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade 2014 are not the 2010 versions of themselves, they are still both AMONG the best at their positions. This team does have chemistry and know what it takes to win. That says something. Do not compare the 2007 Cavs to the 2014 Heat. LeBron than went through three seasons of play-off purgatory, where in Miami he has gone to 4 Finals and split. The Heats health is not a guarantee (hell, neither is the Cavs), but neither is any teams. At least they are doing something to upgrade their role guys. Josh McRoberts is not a glamorous name, but look at what he does and you will see he is an upgrade over any of the guys not named James, Wade or Bosh, plus he is a front court version of such.
Your plug and play reasoning must make you feel that you are making a point, though you are, as usual, leaving out a lot of variables. You are really good at telling people what they do wrong and saying nothing about what they do right. I know you can plug LeBron into a full Cleveland roster and make it seem like it is much better than a 6-7 person Miami roster at this point, though you should realize that in the end, Cleveland’s roster may look a lot different if they plan on signing LeBron to the max. As interesting as I think LeBron going to Cleveland is, I do not think they would necessarily give him a better chance at winning a title in the next 2-3 years. They might, I will admit, however it is in no way as simple as saying that Irving/Wiggins are a better duo than Wade/Bosh. You say "for the next 5 years", but are they for the next 3? That will be the question, as LeBron will more than likely give himself an out to evaluate after two or three seasons. He is turning 30 next year and while the Heat may seem old and washed up, I am guessing they can still compete pretty damn well as long as they have LeBron James with those two other guys. They had this injured player named Mike Miller who took up the MLE, than left, now they have a younger, front court player who can pass and shoot. I think things probably are looking up in 2015 as opposed to 2014, though again, just a guess and only if the pieces fall into place. They may not, but I still think it is a possibility. And definitely would not be "NBA hell".
0- Posted on: Wed, 07/09/2014 - 1:04pm #933888
Ghost01ParticipantHere is my point, simply:
The Heat are going to pay 2 players money based on past performance. Bosh is going to make some where around 16 million, and then that will go up. Wade is going to make at least 50 million total with his deal, or else he wouldn’t have opted out. So let’s say its 4/52. You are now paying Bosh and Wade around 32-40 million of the next 4 seasons. LeBron makes over 20 million. Paying both of these players this kind of salary, plus paying McRoberts 5-7 million, and whatever you owe Udonis Haselm, leaves you with no money.
The difference, between say Phoenix or Cleveland, is that yes, they are capped out. But they aren’t playing guys for past performance. Irving is improving, Wiggins is a rookie, Bledsoe and Dragic are improving. There is potential for improvement. There is no potential for Wade or Bosh to improve.
You bring up Ginobli. Ginobli makes 7 million. If Wade was making 7 million, the Heat would have more room and this argument is entirely different.
My point is about the Heat’s lack of flexibility, and diminishing returns they are going to get for 2 guys they are paying because the won championships in the past.
Yes, the Heat will compete in the East. But you realize they just suffered the worst beatdown in Finals history? 3 straight BEAT DOWNS. That wasn’t a 55/45 series, that was a no doubt mismatch. And it is because the Heat have no depth, because they are paying 3 guys to play like STARS.
You tried to call me out for my 2011 Finals point, because the Heat lost. I wasn’t referring to 2011 in a bad light, but you failed to realize that and tried to call me out for it. My entire point was Wade and Bosh were A LOT better in 2011. As they were in 2012. In 2013, Wade was mostly bad in the playoffs, save a huge Game 4 vs San Antonio, and Bosh was a non factor for much of the last 2 series.
My point from my OP is that if LeBron truly opted out to see improvement for this team, signing a mediocre big, and a bad old guys, while resigning 2 guys at the wrong side of 30, crippling their cap space, isn’t improving the team.
Its fine you think Miami is such a great team. I watched the playoffs. They are not a great team anymore. Wade and Bosh have been declining for 2-3 years, and Bosh being a strictly perimeter based shooter, has lessened the team that won 2 titles.
I would take my chances with a Cleveland team that has an actual roster in place, while Miami will fill their roster out all with minimum salary veterans. Irving would take ball handling duties for LeBron, and they could flip Wiggins for Love, instantly making them much better than the current Heat roster.
And you say "things are looking up" because they signed McRoberts? He’s another big man who shoots 3s, can’t protect the rim, and fixes nothing that was wrong with Miami last year. They still have no POINT GUARDS and no RIM PROTECTION. Mike Miller and Shane Battier may have been old, but they had HUGE games in the playoffs. McRoberts hasn’t reallly even played in any meaningful games, beyond the first round.
It is your right to believe in Miami, I do not. You are trying to prove that I am "wrong" because your predictions are different than mine. My point is, signing McBob and Granger and having no money isn’t my idea of "improvements", that’s all. You seem to be an expert predictor who knows exactly how Wade and Bosh will bounce back and how McRoberts will make the team better. I’m not going to argue with your opinions of the future.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 07/09/2014 - 1:04pm #933759
Ghost01ParticipantHere is my point, simply:
The Heat are going to pay 2 players money based on past performance. Bosh is going to make some where around 16 million, and then that will go up. Wade is going to make at least 50 million total with his deal, or else he wouldn’t have opted out. So let’s say its 4/52. You are now paying Bosh and Wade around 32-40 million of the next 4 seasons. LeBron makes over 20 million. Paying both of these players this kind of salary, plus paying McRoberts 5-7 million, and whatever you owe Udonis Haselm, leaves you with no money.
The difference, between say Phoenix or Cleveland, is that yes, they are capped out. But they aren’t playing guys for past performance. Irving is improving, Wiggins is a rookie, Bledsoe and Dragic are improving. There is potential for improvement. There is no potential for Wade or Bosh to improve.
You bring up Ginobli. Ginobli makes 7 million. If Wade was making 7 million, the Heat would have more room and this argument is entirely different.
My point is about the Heat’s lack of flexibility, and diminishing returns they are going to get for 2 guys they are paying because the won championships in the past.
Yes, the Heat will compete in the East. But you realize they just suffered the worst beatdown in Finals history? 3 straight BEAT DOWNS. That wasn’t a 55/45 series, that was a no doubt mismatch. And it is because the Heat have no depth, because they are paying 3 guys to play like STARS.
You tried to call me out for my 2011 Finals point, because the Heat lost. I wasn’t referring to 2011 in a bad light, but you failed to realize that and tried to call me out for it. My entire point was Wade and Bosh were A LOT better in 2011. As they were in 2012. In 2013, Wade was mostly bad in the playoffs, save a huge Game 4 vs San Antonio, and Bosh was a non factor for much of the last 2 series.
My point from my OP is that if LeBron truly opted out to see improvement for this team, signing a mediocre big, and a bad old guys, while resigning 2 guys at the wrong side of 30, crippling their cap space, isn’t improving the team.
Its fine you think Miami is such a great team. I watched the playoffs. They are not a great team anymore. Wade and Bosh have been declining for 2-3 years, and Bosh being a strictly perimeter based shooter, has lessened the team that won 2 titles.
I would take my chances with a Cleveland team that has an actual roster in place, while Miami will fill their roster out all with minimum salary veterans. Irving would take ball handling duties for LeBron, and they could flip Wiggins for Love, instantly making them much better than the current Heat roster.
And you say "things are looking up" because they signed McRoberts? He’s another big man who shoots 3s, can’t protect the rim, and fixes nothing that was wrong with Miami last year. They still have no POINT GUARDS and no RIM PROTECTION. Mike Miller and Shane Battier may have been old, but they had HUGE games in the playoffs. McRoberts hasn’t reallly even played in any meaningful games, beyond the first round.
It is your right to believe in Miami, I do not. You are trying to prove that I am "wrong" because your predictions are different than mine. My point is, signing McBob and Granger and having no money isn’t my idea of "improvements", that’s all. You seem to be an expert predictor who knows exactly how Wade and Bosh will bounce back and how McRoberts will make the team better. I’m not going to argue with your opinions of the future.
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- Posted on: Wed, 07/09/2014 - 2:43am #933618
mikeyvthedonParticipantWell, he is only considering the Heat or Cavs, so I guess your "all teams interested in LeBron" do not get reciprocated interest. Houston may have two guys who are better players, but they would have to do magic to sign either Bosh or LeBron to a max deal, giving them also, next to no wiggle room to add players. Phoenix is also in the West, not to mention they would lose pieces of that 48 win team and have next to nothing inside. As bad as you think Chris Bosh is (he is an elite midrange shooter, by the way, who also can put the ball on the floor and spreads the floor. The guy has killed teams before, including guys who are considered great defenders. He gives you an offensive option few PF’s offer, while playing better defense than most, though he has had to be relegated out of position at times), he is much better than anyone Phoenix has in their front court. The Heat’s regular season record may not have been great, but to think that the Suns with LeBron automatically makes them better than Miami is not really realistic. You may feel it is, I don’t.
Now, since the Lakers seem to have slim to no chance, lets talk Cavs. Were you not the guy who incredibly disliked Andrew Wiggins as a prospect? Now he is a better option than a guy who averaged 19 ppg on 54.5% shooting last season? Yes, Dwyane Wade has been hurt. He was not good inthe Finals, maybe even terrible by his standards. However, Manu Ginobili was freaking awful in 2013, when he was hurt and had a productive 2014 Finals. Ginobili is 3 years older than Wade. To say their is not possibility Dwyane Wade could be healthy and moderately productive, well, their seems to be a way. Dwyane Wade actually shot better and averaged more points in the play-offs this year than he did last year, so, he is not dead yet.
High comedy is saying two perennial All-Stars who are still "among" (key word) the best at their position (name me all of the players better than they are. Especially on Cleveland, the one team LeBron is interested in going to) are "awesome players". High comedy is also saying "maybe you accidentally watched the 2011 Finals", which is the one they lost to Dallas. I guess bringing up 3 years ago makes you look more right than bring up one or two years ago? Man, they are not the same, but they are still really quite good. Plus, any team LeBron would go to would have cap issues, that is my point. He goes to Cleveland, their will be issues building around that team and a probable lack of depth. Same with anywhere he would go. Plus, to think that he would not have to go through the same process of gaining chemistry and learning to play with a team that he did with the Heat, now that is laughable.
I know the Heat have very little to use in cap space, that still didn’t necessarily stop them from gaining pieces around these guys to make two championship teams. 2013 was basically the same as 2012, they made a couple gambles that did not pay off. Still believe their are players out there who may be willing to take some cuts to try and win a title, though again, that is a gamble as well. As much as it is not fool proof, all of your scenarios are not either. Cleveland has a center who has constantly been injured, plus a front court that is not necessarily making teams tremble. Kyrie Irving is a great player, but an abysmal defender. Andrew Wiggins has immense potential and it seems LeBron would be a huge step in getting the best from him. However, he is young and the play-offs is a different game.
Odds are, whatever team he signs with, LeBron will have an opt out after two or three seasons. If he has a two out of three chance with Miami to win a title, I think he goes with the team he is familiar with an has won with. As much as you seem to deny it and beyond the obvious that Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade 2014 are not the 2010 versions of themselves, they are still both AMONG the best at their positions. This team does have chemistry and know what it takes to win. That says something. Do not compare the 2007 Cavs to the 2014 Heat. LeBron than went through three seasons of play-off purgatory, where in Miami he has gone to 4 Finals and split. The Heats health is not a guarantee (hell, neither is the Cavs), but neither is any teams. At least they are doing something to upgrade their role guys. Josh McRoberts is not a glamorous name, but look at what he does and you will see he is an upgrade over any of the guys not named James, Wade or Bosh, plus he is a front court version of such.
Your plug and play reasoning must make you feel that you are making a point, though you are, as usual, leaving out a lot of variables. You are really good at telling people what they do wrong and saying nothing about what they do right. I know you can plug LeBron into a full Cleveland roster and make it seem like it is much better than a 6-7 person Miami roster at this point, though you should realize that in the end, Cleveland’s roster may look a lot different if they plan on signing LeBron to the max. As interesting as I think LeBron going to Cleveland is, I do not think they would necessarily give him a better chance at winning a title in the next 2-3 years. They might, I will admit, however it is in no way as simple as saying that Irving/Wiggins are a better duo than Wade/Bosh. You say "for the next 5 years", but are they for the next 3? That will be the question, as LeBron will more than likely give himself an out to evaluate after two or three seasons. He is turning 30 next year and while the Heat may seem old and washed up, I am guessing they can still compete pretty damn well as long as they have LeBron James with those two other guys. They had this injured player named Mike Miller who took up the MLE, than left, now they have a younger, front court player who can pass and shoot. I think things probably are looking up in 2015 as opposed to 2014, though again, just a guess and only if the pieces fall into place. They may not, but I still think it is a possibility. And definitely would not be "NBA hell".
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 6:30pm #933536
Ghost01ParticipantWade and Bosh are not the best at their positions.
Yes the Heat made the Finals. So did LeBron’s team in Cleveland. The common denominator was the East sucked both years.
What exactly am I under estimating about Chris Bosh? His ability to be invisible in the NBA finals? 0 points in a game 7? Nothing against San Antonio in 2014? 2 point something rebounds a game against Indiana in 2013? Bosh is vastly overrated. He does a few things well, but largely at this point is helped by the fact he plays with LeBron. Wade wouldn’t be on anyone’s radar if he wasn’t playing with LeBron. Again, he sat out 30 games and was still a shell of whatever former self he was by the Finals.
Since you want answers so badly to prove your point about Miami’s past success, I will give it to you:
All you are saying is, "The Heat are not getting better with Bosh and Wade", when in actuality, they might be. Signing different players can improve things.
Who are they going to sign, with no cap space? They used their MLE on McRoberts. They have no other money to spend except annual MLEs.
If you are going to say "all teams interested in LeBron" are better than what he will have with the Heat, than tell me why?
Rockets – Harden/Howard better than Wade/Bosh
Cavs – Kyrie/Wiggins better than Wade/Bosh for next 5 years
Suns – Dragic/Bledsoe + 48 win team in the West is better that was barely over 50 with LeBron
Lakers – Assuming this means Melo too, Melo/Kobe better than Wade/Bosh
And again, before you say "There’s more to the Heat than Wade and Bosh". No. They are capped out. Any MLE/low level guys they sign he would have just as good a chance of signing with any other team.
Tell me why Miami has no chance of going back to the Finals or competing?
They have a chance to go back to the Finals because the East sucks. The Top 3 teams in the West are better than them, and I don’t see a scenario where they beat San Antonio or OKC with their current team.
Tell me why these other teams would be better and how they would incorporate LeBron and work around the cap to keep or add pieces?
Because they wouldn’t be paying Bosh and Wade 15-20 million over the next 4 years as each declines.
Don’t tell me Chris Bosh is a catch-and-shoot 3 point shooter, because that is just beyond ridiculous, lol. Like, there is hating on Bosh, but this is just another level.
Tell me one thing Chris Bosh does on an elite level. Is he a GREAT rebounder? GREAT defender? GREAT post player? No. No. No. Stop thinking about the past…this isn’t 2011 Bosh, just like it isn’t 2011 Wade. Maybe you accidently watched the 2011 Finals this June.
You then continue to harp on the past, on how the Heat won titles and how they put a team together in 2010. Yes, they filled around these guys in 2010, and for the millionth time, Wade and Bosh were better in 2010. If you are paying 3 stars, they have to be stars. Wade and Bosh are not stars in 2014. And AGAIN, that is the difference between the Heat and other teams flexibility going forward, the Heat are about to commit years and money to guys who simply don’t deserve the years or money they are going to receive.
And finally,
They still have two guys who are awesome players
This is high-comedy. Let me guess, Wade is going to be "healthy" next year?
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 8:34am #933325
mikeyvthedonParticipantYou give nothing. Give me what the roster would look like on these teams with LeBron James and why that would make them better than the Heat. As far as the guys "just taking up the cap", these are two players who are still two of the best players at their position. This was a team that made the Finals last year, not LeBron’s teams in Cleveland. Their may be alternatives, but are these necessarily better alternatives to winning over these next 3 seasons? That is what this will be about. Kyrie Irving may be better than Dwyane Wade, but Chris Bosh is still a good big man. Though, to you he may be only a "catch-and-shoot three point shooter". Think you are underestimating what he does, exactly.
All you are saying is, "The Heat are not getting better with Bosh and Wade", when in actuality, they might be. Signing different players can improve things. Do rumors make things so? Gortat and Lowry being rumors, than signing for 12 million each, kind of does not give incredibly validity to those rumors. It was not going to happen. If you are going to say "all teams interested in LeBron" are better than what he will have with the Heat, than tell me why? Tell me why Miami has no chance of going back to the Finals or competing? Tell me why these other teams would be better and how they would incorporate LeBron and work around the cap to keep or add pieces? Don’t tell me Chris Bosh is a catch-and-shoot 3 point shooter, because that is just beyond ridiculous, lol. Like, there is hating on Bosh, but this is just another level.
These might be "imaginary players" right now, because they still have roster spots to fill. They did back in 2010, when they were more than willing to see what happened. The experiment may not have led to league domination, even if 4 finals trips and 2 titles are not bad. Just do not understand how Miami is completely done and that his going to these other teams will make them all that much better than what Miami could possibly do over the next 3 seasons. Anywhere he goes will have cap issues. Not to mention personnel issues and lack of experience. So, tell me how these teams are going to be better than the Heat. Instead of just telling me how bad the Heat are and that he has other options. We know that, just want to know why these other options are better and whether you can come up with more realistic scenarios than your "rumored" free agent signings were.
You are really good at talking about limitations and what is wrong. Most people can do that. Why not tell me what would make these other teams better than what Miami has, beyond ragging on Wade and Bosh? Tell me what improvements the teams as a whole would offer LeBron to make them superior contenders than Miami. Because that is what I am interested in. I know Miami will have limitations, they always did. They still have two guys who are awesome players and they at least have a chance to build more around them. Tell me what the other teams offer that make them so much better to do that with, rather than just ragging on why the Heat are worse options than any of them.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 8:52am #933200
chrispaulwallParticipantAll of clevelands guys are way too young and inexperienced for the playoffs, not to mention they have no bench. Though they could probably get a few veteran ring chasers. They’d be a contender in the East and of course they would improve over time, but I don’t think LeBron should go into that situation if he wants to win next year. Thats just me. You’re completely right about Miami though, I don’t think thats the best situation for him either. Phoenix if he can play with Melo or Love is probably the best move
0- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 9:08am #933204
mikeyvthedonParticipantIf they bring in LeBron and Melo/Love, I do not see how they can afford Bledsoe as well. Their cap may say otherwise right now, though it does not include the rookies that they will sign. Am incredibly apprehensive about that teams defense, even more so than Miami’s this past season. Melo and LeBron do not want to guard PF’s, so that will be a possible issue. Miles Plumlee had a good season, though am not sure about him as a starting center as a defender.
Alex Len and Miles Plumlee would be a lot to bank on. While the Morris’ off the bench are nice, they aren’t exactly defensive stalwarts either. They are enticing, for sure, had a great season last year, Jeff Hornacek did a great job coaching. Still, they would be in a very tough Western conference, have to develop chemistry and would be very young at important positions. LeBron and Melo would be interesting, though I will say no guarantee on Bledsoe and the cap wiggle room to fill out depth would be limited.
Kevin Love, do not see how they trade for him, unless they did a sign and trade type thing with ONLY LeBron signing, again, it would be a risk of when and if that would happen. As much as Miami has issues, it is difficult for me to think Phoenix just solves all of them. They would be a lot of fun to watch and quite fast paced, but it would be a gamble as well. I would want to know exactly what the roster would be and just who we could keep before saying they are safer than playing with Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.
0- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 2:01pm #933435
chrispaulwallParticipantagreed that Phoenix’s lineup as it stands has it’s issues, but you would figure after attaining Lebron the suns would maneuver their roster to make it more sound (veteran shooters, lockdown perimeter defenders, rim protectors) using their assets including Bledsoe or dragic, the Morris twins, and their first round selections this year to teams looking to add youth and potential.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 2:01pm #933306
chrispaulwallParticipantagreed that Phoenix’s lineup as it stands has it’s issues, but you would figure after attaining Lebron the suns would maneuver their roster to make it more sound (veteran shooters, lockdown perimeter defenders, rim protectors) using their assets including Bledsoe or dragic, the Morris twins, and their first round selections this year to teams looking to add youth and potential.
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 9:08am #933335
mikeyvthedonParticipantIf they bring in LeBron and Melo/Love, I do not see how they can afford Bledsoe as well. Their cap may say otherwise right now, though it does not include the rookies that they will sign. Am incredibly apprehensive about that teams defense, even more so than Miami’s this past season. Melo and LeBron do not want to guard PF’s, so that will be a possible issue. Miles Plumlee had a good season, though am not sure about him as a starting center as a defender.
Alex Len and Miles Plumlee would be a lot to bank on. While the Morris’ off the bench are nice, they aren’t exactly defensive stalwarts either. They are enticing, for sure, had a great season last year, Jeff Hornacek did a great job coaching. Still, they would be in a very tough Western conference, have to develop chemistry and would be very young at important positions. LeBron and Melo would be interesting, though I will say no guarantee on Bledsoe and the cap wiggle room to fill out depth would be limited.
Kevin Love, do not see how they trade for him, unless they did a sign and trade type thing with ONLY LeBron signing, again, it would be a risk of when and if that would happen. As much as Miami has issues, it is difficult for me to think Phoenix just solves all of them. They would be a lot of fun to watch and quite fast paced, but it would be a gamble as well. I would want to know exactly what the roster would be and just who we could keep before saying they are safer than playing with Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 8:52am #933331
chrispaulwallParticipantAll of clevelands guys are way too young and inexperienced for the playoffs, not to mention they have no bench. Though they could probably get a few veteran ring chasers. They’d be a contender in the East and of course they would improve over time, but I don’t think LeBron should go into that situation if he wants to win next year. Thats just me. You’re completely right about Miami though, I don’t think thats the best situation for him either. Phoenix if he can play with Melo or Love is probably the best move
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 8:02am #933317
Ghost01ParticipantViable alternatives would be all the teams interested in LeBron.
how do you build around bosh and Wade and LeBron when all of them are taking up the cap? Signing male believe players? Remember when they were getting Lowry and Gortat?
there was no alternative for Miami, that’s the point… He wanted them to improve and they couldn’t do it. These are MINOR imrpoveents. Cleveland or Phoenix would be better options. Yes they both are very young teams but you are severely overrating what Wade and Bosh are at the point. Wade took off 30 games and was still dead in the finals. Bosh is a catch and shoot 3 shooter. There isn’t anyone with sensible basketball thoughts that would rather player with Wade than Kyrie for the next 5 years. You can’t just say "Well the Heat couldn’t do any better so he has to go back because the Cavs are young. "
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- Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 7:28am #933303
mikeyvthedonParticipantWith precedent having been laid down that the Magic are giving Channing Frye 8 million per year and the Pistons are hooking Jodie Meeks 6.5 million per year, the market is pretty damn competitive, is it not? The "rumor" list is of players who are all in the double digit range, so they clearly were not viable options. Hell, Lowry and Gortat signed for 12 million per season. They may be younger than Dwyane Wade, but are they better? Even a banged up Wade is better than 80% of the leagues SG’s, and that is a low guess. For as bad as Chris Bosh apparently is at defense and rebounding, do the Cavs have a better big man who has been more durable? Think not.
Now, these two signings do not make your jaw drop. However, this was a team that stayed competitive starting Rashard Lewis. Josh McRoberts is not a worse defender than Rashard. Danny Granger signed for incredibly little, plus is less broken down than Shane Battier last season. To me, they are at least an improvement of depth over last years roster. They give you a couple of crafty vets who can potentially play around those three guys and I am not sure either is a starter. The roster still obviously needs to be filled out, which will be interesting with very little wiggle room left, but to say these guys spell doom is not necessarily accurate.
In the possibility of LeBron going to Cleveland is, who is to say the grass is greener there? It at least won’t be right away. Kyrie Irving is a fantastic player and Andrew Wiggins has huge potential, but they are so young! Andy Verajao has had a difficult time staying healthy, Tristan Thompson and Tyler Zeller are not bad, but definitely not Chris Bosh and Josh McRoberts (seriously, which is saying something). You would have to bank on a lot. On paper, it certainly would be LeBron’s most enticing team he had ever had in Cleveland. Their would be very little wiggle room cap wise, we have no idea how they would gel (If I remember correctly, Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters had issues last year) and they have no real postseason experience outside of LeBron and Verajao (if he is healthy). Upside, sure. Though, once again, a lot to bank on with still some spots that could potentially be pretty scary. Not to mention, you have to pay Kyrie, no guarantee you get Kevin Love and even if you get them (with probably having to give up Wiggins, Waiters, or both), those guys are not known for their defense.
I think "NBA hell" is a massive overreaction to what signing with the Heat for 3 years would be for LeBron. He would still have two guys who are among the better players at their positions and perennial All-Stars. They would be presumably looking to add more depth than they had last season, with the chemistry of their main players helping in a big way. This is a team that won the Eastern Conference pretty handily who is at least looking to get better, rather than generally standing pat and hoping for minimum signings to pay off like they did last season. Those signings didn’t pay off and they are trying to spend some to add a bit more depth. You have the Spurs and Clippers still strong, though if the Heat do somehow fill out the roster with a few more guys who are willing to take a pay cut, are they that far behind? No guarantee they will, though even still, if they keep that core intact, they compete.
They have to keep Dwyane Wade, yes, the same one who is clearly not himself. As much as you would like to say "hey, mind if you left the franchise that drafted you and carried on somewhere else", it is not going to happen. He is not going to get you 25 on most nights and is nowhere as dangerous driving to the rack. The guy is still at least near All-Star level if he is healthy. As much of an "if" as that may be, has he missed a lot of significant time in the play-offs? Chris Bosh is still one of the top big men in the league. Yes, I say big men. He should not be playing center, he has, they won two titles with him doing so. If they can get a two headed center to take up more minutes there, watch him do much better. Plus, in no way do I think he will be worse with McRoberts next to him as opposed to Rashard Lewis. That was much more of a defensive nightmare, even for as much as Rashard provided (which was a lot more than I expected).
PG will still be something that will be addressed. No more Mario the whipping boy (at least I have to believe he is gone). Norris Cole and Shabazz Napier do not inspire a ton of hope, though if you bring in the right pieces, they may not have to. It is way to short of a roster right now to completely write it off. Whereas, these other options full rosters give you a lot of question marks. Maybe they would be solved in the future, but this is the present. Does Cleveland present LeBron a better chance to compete next year than Miami? Maybe even in two years? Does he want to wait until he is 33 to hope they can? To gain the chemistry even Miami had difficulty with at times during their first few seasons?
There are much worse versions of "NBA hell" than LeBron would have signing with Miami if they bring back Wade and Bosh. Kevin Garnett’s last three seasons in Minnesota were "NBA hell". LeBron would at least would have an improved supporting cast with his all-star buddies. I would want to see what Cleveland does with Waiters before being incredibly gung-ho about returning. Even than, you are banking on a lot and will need to develop chemistry with a VERY young team. It would be interesting, though is it better than having two other perennial All-Stars you already know really well? That is a risk. Both of them are risks. Are you more comfortable going for potential and the unknown, or going with guys you have gone to 4 straight finals with? Even if you say "well, this current Miami group has no chance anymore", what makes the Cleveland group necessarily have that much more of one?
The issue I have with Cleveland "at least (having) players that have a window of improvement ahead of them" is that when will that finally make them a contending team? If LeBron can have two more years in Miami, I am guessing they absolutely will be in title contention if they keep Wade, Bosh and build around them. Plus, tell me why Cleveland would be so much better. It is really easy to only criticize without giving any viable alternatives, much less explaining as to why the other options are that much better. Saying LeBron is not a good evaluator of talent should at least come with what exactly would be better when it comes to competing for titles over these next three seasons.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 7:43am #933176
FoxdashmanParticipantthis was about the Magic signing Ben Gordon and Channing Frye
0 - Posted on: Tue, 07/08/2014 - 7:43am #933307
FoxdashmanParticipantthis was about the Magic signing Ben Gordon and Channing Frye
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