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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:17am #53544
Land of GrantParticipantHi, I’m Dan, this is my first post here. Been lurking this forum for a while and it seemed like a cool place so I figured I’d finally post my opinions on the draft’s top prospects. Here’s my top ten ranking.
#1 – Joel Embiid
He’s the best prospect in the draft this year because in the NBA, he’ll be faster and more agile then pretty much every other big man, as well as being a more fluid and springy mover then all the ones I can think of. He’ll have an inherent mobility advantage against every player that guards him. Also, his physical tools and innate feel for the game (high BBiq) are such that he’s averaging 11 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 3 blocks a game off 68% shooting in a power conference, while competing for touches and rebounds with some really great players. His solid free frow percentage and ability to hit the occasional jumpshot shows some pick and pop potential. In the league, he’ll bring some good complementary scoring, probably around 17 ppg, solid rebounding, probably around 10.5 rpg, and a lot of blocks, in the area of 3.5 per game, and he’ll do it with great efficiency while not doing any "headcase stuff" like frequent turnovers, bad defensive gambles, and bad shots.
#2 – Andrew Wiggins
Nowadays, the NBA scoring leaderboards are dominated by elite small forwards, and, if you don’t have someone who can guard these guys, you’re gonna be giving up career nights and 35 point games with regularity. Andrew Wiggins has the size, quickness, athleticism and defensive nous to guard any perimeter player, he can be a height mismatch guarding PGs (he’s quick enough), a quickness and lesser height mismatch on SGs, and a quickness mismatch on small forwards. He’s a guy Lebron’s gonna have to shoot jumpers over. On the offensive side of things, he’s an elite transition player, and a solid shooter, and finisher who can get to the rim. Now, he’s still working on his shooting, and the craftiness of his finishing, but he’s a coachable kid who will be a force offensively if he can get three point percentage to the high thirties, and figure out finishing angles, and when to lay it up and when to dunk. In addition, he’s shown flashes of a great mid-range game, with a nice step back jumper, and, in the opportunities he’s got, he’s displayed a tricky post game. Having said that, although he seems to be a clutch player who rises to big moments, he’s never going to be an alpha dog in the NBA, and will need another star next to him to get his team into the "elite" category. When he hits his prime in the L, he’ll be a lockdown defender and twenty point scorer, with nice rebounding and efficiency.
#3 – Marcus Smart
Unlike the first two guys, Marcus Smart’s an alpha dog. That phrase is quickly becoming a cliche. "Alpha dog". Anyways, Marcus Smart’s a guy who can run an offense, make some great plays in transition, play really good defense on 1s and 2s, and occasionally get hot, to devestating effect. In the NBA, he’s gonna start off being a little offensively challenged in the halfcourt, thanks to an inconsistent jumper and lack of noticeably great quickness or ball-handling. But he’s a smart (!), determined, and athletic guy who will learn how to use his size advantage, and eventually become a rich man’s Andre Miller, athletic and crafty, and a good finisher, but not the best shooter, on the offensive side of things. I know Andre Miller’s not athletic, that’s why he’s a rich man’s Andre Miller. Defensively, he has a high steal rate, meaning he’s got great instincts and quickness on that end. He’s also a pretty big dude, and PGs are gonna have a hard time shooting and finishing over him, while SGs are gonna find it tough getting around him. When he hits his prime in the L, he’s gonna be a borderline lockdown defender, who chips in with 15 points, 6 or 7 assists, and 5 rebounds, on a nightly basis, while occasionally going nuts with his jumpshot to the tune of 30 or 40 points.
#4 – Noah Vonleh
Don’t worry, I haven’t forgotten about Jabari and Julius, I just don’t like them that much. Anyways, Noah Vonleh is a 6-10, 240 lb PF with great athleticism and outstanding rebounding, due to his hustle and physical tools. He’s also a great defender, he is more athletic that 95% of the PFs that he guards, and if need be can slide over to the opposition’s 3 or 5 and present a mismatch in height or quickness. His offensive game hasn’t really developed yet, and right now he’s more of a hustle points and garbage guy that a real shot creator, but he’s shown some good finishing ability, body control, and the shadows of a good stroke, he’s made 10 of 18 threes this year and is shooting 72% from the line. In the league, he’s going to be a standout defender who can guard most frontcourt guys, as well as a great rebounder and hustle player, who has the potential to develop a really strong offensive game, perhaps as an athletic stretch 4 who can get to the rim, but even if he doesn’t will be a force.
#5 – Jabari Parker
There he is! I think this talk about him as the number one pick is madness. Why? All he brings to the table is scoring. What do I mean by that? Well, he’s a minus defender, thanks to his average athleticism and the energy he expends on the offensive end. He’s not a standout rebounder, his 7.7 per game is not that impressive when you consider that when he’s on the floor he’s Duke’s only player who is really anywhere near the glass, he plays the five for them. Yes, it’s cool that he’s managed to be Duke’s main rebounder, but in the league he won’t be, and on the glass he’ll get dominated by bigger, stronger, better conditioned dudes. He’ll be a 6.5 rpg guy at best. Having said that, he is a good scorer. At the beginning of the season, he showed what he can do when his jumper is falling. His suspect shot selection is negated, and he’s a dynamo who can score in the post, get to the rim, and score from anywhere. When it isn’t, however, his offense collapses, as it’s what his game is predicated on. When dudes aren’t playing close to him to deny the jumper, he has trouble getting to the rim, and he’s not the willing, smart passer people seem to think he is, averaging just 1.4 apg as Duke’s featured player and main ball handler. But if he goes to the right team, a team that has defense, rebounding, and hustle, and just needs an offensive cornerstone, because in the NBA, he’ll be a twenty point scorer.
#6 – Aaron Gordon
Defense! It’s half the game. As you can probably have seen, I love me some good defense. Aaron Gordon’s a great defensive player. He’s incredibly quick and his athleticism and alertness allows him to get good contests on every shot he’s guarding. On offense, he’s a good guy to have, because he knows where to be, makes good cuts, and is a great dunker who can finish oops and drop off passes. He doesn’t use possessions, unless he’s in a great position. He’s also outstanding in transition, thanks to his athleticism, and he’s a flashy highlight dunker who can excite a crowd. Yes, he’s a tweener, caught between 3 and 4, and he’ll probably never develop small forward-worthy ball handling and shooting abilities, and I know he’s terrible at free throws. But the NBA’s starting to adopt the idea of positionless basketball, and next to a big who could score, he’d really shine. He’s gonna be a 13 points and 8 rebounds guy in the league, with lockdown defense.
#7 – Dante Exum
Here’s a guy with all the tools (except a jumpshot), but might not figure out how to use them. He’s really, really fast, and a great leaper, and he’s a 6’6 guard! Whether he’s a point or shooting guard is yet to be determined, and he might get into tweener territory, as he’s not savvy or a good enough shooter to play off ball, but his ability to run an offense leaves something to be desired. He’s fast, but is clueless on the changing speeds to confuse defenders front, and he plays at the same incredibly fast speed for 100% of the game, leading to a lot of turnovers and out-of-control plays. He’s also shown a proclivity for tunnel visioning the rim, he ignores open teammates in favor of throwing up a bad jumper or hurtling to the rim. On defense, he has the tools to be one of the best of all time, 6’6 guards with elite quickness and athleticism are generally hard to score on. But he makes a lot of mistakes, ball-watching, bad positioning, and just general lack of understanding where to be, and what to do. Also, he’s a bad shooter. His stroke looks ok, but he often shoots on the way down and rarely makes jumpshots, especially pull ups. Despite this, he takes a lot of jumpers, and so you can add bad shot selection to the list of issues. His bad shot selection, lack of defensive nous, and out-of-control play lead to the conclusion that he just doesn’t understand basketball well, and has a low BBiq. What perspective drafters of Exum have to discern is whether this is a product of bad coaching, or just a low understanding of the game, as, if its the former, he has a good chance of fulfilling his enormous potential.
#8 – Julius Randle
Here’s an interesting dude. He can score, yes, and he’s a hard-nosed rebounder, but he has a lot of trouble scoring over bigger bigs. His offensive style is simple: Bully, bully, bully. He doesn’t have a lot of moves, rather, he uses his strength to push guys towards the rim and then finish over them. The problem is that when guys are bigger and stronger that him, that strategy doesn’t work, leading to a lot of double-clutches and and desperate, flailing heaves. What you can’t question, however, is his rebounding, he’s averaging eleven a game this year, and he’s proven that he’s a bully that loves to hustle to get the ball. Having said all that, there are still a lot of issues with this guy, he’s a flat out bad defender, who either gets dribbled around, shot over, or found out of position, and it’s not clear if he’s an explosive athlete. His best case scenario is more athletic Zach Randolph, but there’s also a great chance he busts. Drafting him in the top 5 would be a gamble.
I know that’s insanely long and you probably didn’t read all of it. But that’s fine, I’m just glad to have a place to write this stuff.
Discuss!
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 3:03am #864852
redeyejediParticipantI agree on Randle
What is difference between Thomas Robinson and Julius Randle? From what I’ve seen (given, it is a small sample size), nothing. Tweeners that will have trouble when everyone else has the same top-notch strength training.0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 3:03am #864956
redeyejediParticipantI agree on Randle
What is difference between Thomas Robinson and Julius Randle? From what I’ve seen (given, it is a small sample size), nothing. Tweeners that will have trouble when everyone else has the same top-notch strength training.0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 4:56am #864864
aaucoachParticipanthow are you gonna praise embid who is 7′ for avg 7.4 rebs,and knock parker who is 6’8 for avg 7.7 rebs lol.the same athletes that you say will reduce parker to a 6 reb guy are the same 1’s embid has to go against.i cant by any stretch see embid doing well against a marc gasol,or dwight howard at the moment.historically their have been more big guy busts in the top of the draft than wing guys so history alone would make me keep parker as the top prospect
as for wiggins,implying that he would be a problem for guys like bron and durant on defense is plain silly.what elite college player has he shut down for all this defense hype that he gets?stats wise,parker has been better defensively.wiggins doesnt even avg a block or a steal per game.
unlike all these other prospects,what makes parker unique is that you cant say he is dominating because he is the m,ost athletic guy on the court.you take away his athleticism and he would still be a great player,if you take away wiggins or these other guys,what would you be left with.judge guys on what they have done.parker has shown himself to be 1 of the most versatile guys in the country,wiggins hasnt shown much of anything
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:30am #864884
B-ball fanParticipantParker plays more minutes per game. Embiid averages 11.74 rebounds per 36 minutes, while Parker averages 9.49 rebounds per 36 minutes. Parker is also surrounded by inferior rebounders and has played an easier schedule. Parker is a good rebounder, but his rebounding ability is not equal to Embiid’s and taller, stronger players generally have their rebounding numbers translate better to the NBA. Embiid should be a much better rebounder in the NBA than Parker.
I agree that Land of Grant may underrate Parker’s overall game, but a 6.5 rpg average is certainly a realistic prediction for him.
And what are those stats that imply Parker is a better defender than Wiggins? Certainly, I hope you aren’t judging defense by blocks/steals numbers, especially for guys who project as a wing and a combo-forward. Anybody who has watched KU knows that Wiggins has elite lateral quickness for a wing. He isn’t quite ready to be a stopper, but he has the mentality and physical tools to become an impact defender.
Parker is clearly a more skilled offensive player than Wiggins. Wiggins is clearly more athletic and is a more skilled defensive player. I don’t think one prospect is dramatically better than the other. Parker is the better scorer right now, but Wiggins could be more effective in a lower usage role early in his career. And Wiggins’ physique, which is already superior to Parker’s, seems to have more room for improvement. I can definitely see Parker going #2, but Wiggins isn’t out of the mix.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:05am #864908
aaucoachParticipantembid is still a 7′ center while parker is still a 6’8 sf.so embid is supposed to avg more rebs per 36 mins.is embid surrounded by supreme rebounders or something?both duke and kansas have played very tough schedules.of course embid should be a much better rebounder in the nba as the job of the center is primarily to rebound.
damn near every guy in the league has elite lateral quickness in these times.for all this elite athleticism talk,wiggins still doesnt avg a steal or block per game,so again,what makes him an elite defender?im not judging anybody off of what they can become,im judging them off what they are doing now.parker is already avg over 1 block per game,and shot blocking is an elite defensive skill.athleticism does not automatically = great defender
wiggins physique is definitely not superior.have you watched him try and take contact when he goes to the basket?parker on the other hand is built like a 30 year old man.you dont need muscles or a ripped body to have a great bball physique.all parker needs to do is tone up,wiggins is struggling with the physicality of college,while parker isnt having those issues.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:08am #865046
B-ball fanParticipantParker is playing a lot of center, too, so shouldn’t he be rebounding more, too? Kansas is a solid rebounding team with other good rebounders besides Embiid. Duke struggles big time on the boards. Yes, Embiid will be asked to rebound more than Parker in the NBA, but he should be up to the challenge. Embiid’s fundamentals are solid and he can high point the ball. He just needs to be more physical when blocking out and gain core strength.
Wiggins does need to get stronger. But he has the build to gain weight. His strength right now is less than perfect for an NBA player and hinders him as a finisher, but he has a good build considering his age. It is easier to gain weight than it is to lose it. Parker is stronger, but he projects as a combo-forward. It is not inconceivable that Parker could be a PF in the league while Wiggins plays SG. Parker has to be stronger. Parker’s lack of strength is an issue, too, as he has struggled as a post defender (see his games against Alabama and Notre Dame if you want proof). And Parker lacks the quickness and fundamentals on defense that Wiggins has.
I agree that athleticism doesn’t = great defender and Wiggins does have flaws in his defensive game. He needs to get better closing out on shooters and seems a little too concerned with giving up penetration. He could be better served running his man off the 3-point line sometimes. And he does get caught ball-watching sometimes as well. But he plays excellent on-ball defense. He is pretty conservative in style, not overplaying the opponents strong hand too much, but he has the lateral quickness to prevent penetration and he moves laterally in a stance well. He will need to get stronger to defend the post, but he isn’t that weak considering his age.
I’m just going off what I see watching Wiggins and Parker play. Parker does bock more shots, but he is a big man for Duke. He has a responsibility to protect the rim, while Wiggins is not on the back line of Kansas’ defense. If Parker plays SF in the NBA, I doubt he will really block more shots than Wiggins.
Parker is the better offensive player. Better shooter, far superior ball handler and better post game. Wiggins has the potential to get better, though, and should be even better in transition. Wiggins is still a little awkward with the ball in his hands and is not as good a finisher as he should be, but his flaws are correctable. Parker is the better offensive prospect in my opinion, but Wiggins is a good prospect in his own right.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:08am #864942
B-ball fanParticipantParker is playing a lot of center, too, so shouldn’t he be rebounding more, too? Kansas is a solid rebounding team with other good rebounders besides Embiid. Duke struggles big time on the boards. Yes, Embiid will be asked to rebound more than Parker in the NBA, but he should be up to the challenge. Embiid’s fundamentals are solid and he can high point the ball. He just needs to be more physical when blocking out and gain core strength.
Wiggins does need to get stronger. But he has the build to gain weight. His strength right now is less than perfect for an NBA player and hinders him as a finisher, but he has a good build considering his age. It is easier to gain weight than it is to lose it. Parker is stronger, but he projects as a combo-forward. It is not inconceivable that Parker could be a PF in the league while Wiggins plays SG. Parker has to be stronger. Parker’s lack of strength is an issue, too, as he has struggled as a post defender (see his games against Alabama and Notre Dame if you want proof). And Parker lacks the quickness and fundamentals on defense that Wiggins has.
I agree that athleticism doesn’t = great defender and Wiggins does have flaws in his defensive game. He needs to get better closing out on shooters and seems a little too concerned with giving up penetration. He could be better served running his man off the 3-point line sometimes. And he does get caught ball-watching sometimes as well. But he plays excellent on-ball defense. He is pretty conservative in style, not overplaying the opponents strong hand too much, but he has the lateral quickness to prevent penetration and he moves laterally in a stance well. He will need to get stronger to defend the post, but he isn’t that weak considering his age.
I’m just going off what I see watching Wiggins and Parker play. Parker does bock more shots, but he is a big man for Duke. He has a responsibility to protect the rim, while Wiggins is not on the back line of Kansas’ defense. If Parker plays SF in the NBA, I doubt he will really block more shots than Wiggins.
Parker is the better offensive player. Better shooter, far superior ball handler and better post game. Wiggins has the potential to get better, though, and should be even better in transition. Wiggins is still a little awkward with the ball in his hands and is not as good a finisher as he should be, but his flaws are correctable. Parker is the better offensive prospect in my opinion, but Wiggins is a good prospect in his own right.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:39am #865052
aaucoachParticipantgood post bball.parker plays at center but he is still 6’8 and a natural sf.if you put lebron at center,he all of a sudden isnt gonna avg 12 rebs a game.
its definitly easier to lose weight than gain.to lose,if you want to lose weight,cut your calories and sweets.its really that simple.too gain though,particulary at a young age is tough because most of these athletes have high metabolisms,and they practice twice a day mixed with workouts,so they are constantly burning calories.some guys like kg,durant,etc are just naturally thin and have a hard time gaining weight.
the thing with parkers struggles on defense is that he isnt a natural post defender.he is a wing guy forced to play in the post.wiggins is at his natural position so of course he is alot more comfortable.
i agree that wiggins is still a great prospect,but he is definitely a victim of the hype machine.it should be clear that his ceiling isnt once what people thought it was but people just hate to be wrong.you’ll still get 50 negs on this site for talking bad about shabazz muhammad lol.i personally think his ceiling is in that luol deng/kahwi leonard tier of player as opposed to the paul george,durant tier
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:39am #864947
aaucoachParticipantgood post bball.parker plays at center but he is still 6’8 and a natural sf.if you put lebron at center,he all of a sudden isnt gonna avg 12 rebs a game.
its definitly easier to lose weight than gain.to lose,if you want to lose weight,cut your calories and sweets.its really that simple.too gain though,particulary at a young age is tough because most of these athletes have high metabolisms,and they practice twice a day mixed with workouts,so they are constantly burning calories.some guys like kg,durant,etc are just naturally thin and have a hard time gaining weight.
the thing with parkers struggles on defense is that he isnt a natural post defender.he is a wing guy forced to play in the post.wiggins is at his natural position so of course he is alot more comfortable.
i agree that wiggins is still a great prospect,but he is definitely a victim of the hype machine.it should be clear that his ceiling isnt once what people thought it was but people just hate to be wrong.you’ll still get 50 negs on this site for talking bad about shabazz muhammad lol.i personally think his ceiling is in that luol deng/kahwi leonard tier of player as opposed to the paul george,durant tier
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:10am #865072
B-ball fanParticipantI think gaining weight is easier for a teenager because they will just naturally gain weight anyways. Wiggins is probably always going to have a lean build, but he will fill out a little as he gets older, while Parker will only have a more difficult time keeping fat off as he gets older. Parker definitely does have room to improve his physique and gain mustle, though.
I don’t think we really disagree too much on this issue; we are just approaching it from different perspectives. I agree that Wiggins’ skill level is a bit overrated and I probably overrated him myself earlier in the season. I think some of the backlash to the hype is a little too harsh, but Wiggins definitely has flaws in his game.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:10am #864967
B-ball fanParticipantI think gaining weight is easier for a teenager because they will just naturally gain weight anyways. Wiggins is probably always going to have a lean build, but he will fill out a little as he gets older, while Parker will only have a more difficult time keeping fat off as he gets older. Parker definitely does have room to improve his physique and gain mustle, though.
I don’t think we really disagree too much on this issue; we are just approaching it from different perspectives. I agree that Wiggins’ skill level is a bit overrated and I probably overrated him myself earlier in the season. I think some of the backlash to the hype is a little too harsh, but Wiggins definitely has flaws in his game.
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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:05am #865012
aaucoachParticipantembid is still a 7′ center while parker is still a 6’8 sf.so embid is supposed to avg more rebs per 36 mins.is embid surrounded by supreme rebounders or something?both duke and kansas have played very tough schedules.of course embid should be a much better rebounder in the nba as the job of the center is primarily to rebound.
damn near every guy in the league has elite lateral quickness in these times.for all this elite athleticism talk,wiggins still doesnt avg a steal or block per game,so again,what makes him an elite defender?im not judging anybody off of what they can become,im judging them off what they are doing now.parker is already avg over 1 block per game,and shot blocking is an elite defensive skill.athleticism does not automatically = great defender
wiggins physique is definitely not superior.have you watched him try and take contact when he goes to the basket?parker on the other hand is built like a 30 year old man.you dont need muscles or a ripped body to have a great bball physique.all parker needs to do is tone up,wiggins is struggling with the physicality of college,while parker isnt having those issues.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:55am #865036
phila9012ParticipantI see parker and wiggins as equals like most people do. Wiggins has more potential, parker is better right now. It all depends on who has the drive to be great and it is hard to tell. Paul George had that and he was very athletic and look at him now, he is a top 5 player in the league. Parker has the potential to be great as well if he puts the work in. I am not comparing him to Kevin Love. Kevin Love is probably a bottom 25% athlete in the NBA and yet he is considered a top 5 to 7 player. He had put in the work while other guys didn’t. He hustles, he can score inside, he can shoot 3’s very good, he can make plays for his teammates, he is getting 4 a game. Which proves some oth this athleticism stuff is over rated when comparing these two. It is too early to tell whether the guys have it them to be great.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:55am #864932
phila9012ParticipantI see parker and wiggins as equals like most people do. Wiggins has more potential, parker is better right now. It all depends on who has the drive to be great and it is hard to tell. Paul George had that and he was very athletic and look at him now, he is a top 5 player in the league. Parker has the potential to be great as well if he puts the work in. I am not comparing him to Kevin Love. Kevin Love is probably a bottom 25% athlete in the NBA and yet he is considered a top 5 to 7 player. He had put in the work while other guys didn’t. He hustles, he can score inside, he can shoot 3’s very good, he can make plays for his teammates, he is getting 4 a game. Which proves some oth this athleticism stuff is over rated when comparing these two. It is too early to tell whether the guys have it them to be great.
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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:30am #864988
B-ball fanParticipantParker plays more minutes per game. Embiid averages 11.74 rebounds per 36 minutes, while Parker averages 9.49 rebounds per 36 minutes. Parker is also surrounded by inferior rebounders and has played an easier schedule. Parker is a good rebounder, but his rebounding ability is not equal to Embiid’s and taller, stronger players generally have their rebounding numbers translate better to the NBA. Embiid should be a much better rebounder in the NBA than Parker.
I agree that Land of Grant may underrate Parker’s overall game, but a 6.5 rpg average is certainly a realistic prediction for him.
And what are those stats that imply Parker is a better defender than Wiggins? Certainly, I hope you aren’t judging defense by blocks/steals numbers, especially for guys who project as a wing and a combo-forward. Anybody who has watched KU knows that Wiggins has elite lateral quickness for a wing. He isn’t quite ready to be a stopper, but he has the mentality and physical tools to become an impact defender.
Parker is clearly a more skilled offensive player than Wiggins. Wiggins is clearly more athletic and is a more skilled defensive player. I don’t think one prospect is dramatically better than the other. Parker is the better scorer right now, but Wiggins could be more effective in a lower usage role early in his career. And Wiggins’ physique, which is already superior to Parker’s, seems to have more room for improvement. I can definitely see Parker going #2, but Wiggins isn’t out of the mix.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:57am #865113
JamesBaker3195ParticipantEmbiid has only played 23 minutes per game so far. Randle is at over 30. That explains it.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:57am #865009
JamesBaker3195ParticipantEmbiid has only played 23 minutes per game so far. Randle is at over 30. That explains it.
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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 4:56am #864968
aaucoachParticipanthow are you gonna praise embid who is 7′ for avg 7.4 rebs,and knock parker who is 6’8 for avg 7.7 rebs lol.the same athletes that you say will reduce parker to a 6 reb guy are the same 1’s embid has to go against.i cant by any stretch see embid doing well against a marc gasol,or dwight howard at the moment.historically their have been more big guy busts in the top of the draft than wing guys so history alone would make me keep parker as the top prospect
as for wiggins,implying that he would be a problem for guys like bron and durant on defense is plain silly.what elite college player has he shut down for all this defense hype that he gets?stats wise,parker has been better defensively.wiggins doesnt even avg a block or a steal per game.
unlike all these other prospects,what makes parker unique is that you cant say he is dominating because he is the m,ost athletic guy on the court.you take away his athleticism and he would still be a great player,if you take away wiggins or these other guys,what would you be left with.judge guys on what they have done.parker has shown himself to be 1 of the most versatile guys in the country,wiggins hasnt shown much of anything
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 4:59am #864868
Ghost01ParticipantI completely disagree about both Parker and Randle.
How can you say two guys who have flat out produced at the college level are "overrated" and then you throw out Wiggins at number 2?
You wanna know what makes a good defense? BIGS. That is why Carmelo Anthony has played on plus defenses in his career, that is why Durant in his younger days where he wasn’t giving a damn about defense was still on teams that were decent-good defensively.
The Bulls last season gave huge minutes to the trio of Boozer, Nate Robinson, and Bellinelli. Those 3 were playing together A LOT, and the team still was one of the best defensive teams in the league. Scheming, and rim protection are the keys to defense. There are so few guys on the perimete, especially at PG that can legitimately lock some one down. Of course you have your LBJs, and the Paul Georges, but for the most part, perimeter players will struggle from time to time just because of how quick offensive players are.
So what does all of this babbling have to do with Wiggins?
I am SOOOO sick of coming onto Wiggins hype discsussions, whether it be on here or on espn or whatever, and see people acting like this dude’s defense is going to make him a great player. I have no doubts he can be a good NBA defender, and certainly has more potential on that side of the ball than Parker. But Rod Hood is the only NBA player he has guarded this season. Yes he has the tools and he cares and all that, but lets also note on who is backing him up out there….EMBIID! Hmmm is it easier to guard someone when a 7’2 force is backing you up, or when Amile Jefferson and the immortal Marshall "I’m on the team because of my siblings" Plumlee is?
Wiggins will be a nice NBA player. But there are major red flags in terms of how unfathomably complacent he is on offense. He doesn’t take it to the rim that often, he doesn’t "want" the ball, and his overall dribbling skills were vastly overrated. His saving grace is Paul George, because it is so easy to compare the two, eventhough George made virtually all of his big improvements AFTER he came to the NBA, and its so hard to project what Wiggins will do going forward, but going from Role Player-Solid Starter-All Star-Super Star after being the 10th pick like George was is a meteoric rise. And I think that George absolutely exerts himself, and that is why his shooting percentages have never been great. He does want to take shots and make plays for his team, which isn’t ALWAYS a bad thing. Right now he is as well rounded and complete a player you will find in the NBA. Acting like Wiggins, who plays hot potato with the basketball, moves stiffly, and shoots ok will be that guy is a long shot.
And I’m not arguing you that Parker is a scorer. But he is a very very good scorer. He can do something very well. Wiggins is mostly a mess of being decent but not quite good enough at everything. I don’t think Parker is a selfish player, I’ve actually been impressed with his rebounding, and although he is never going to be any sort of a 1 v 1 defensive ace, he has been increasingly active on that end and has been creating steals and turning them into points.
Randle is getting a bad rap lately, and it shocks me. I know he is undersized, and I know he isn’t perfect. But 8th? Damn. He sure has a nice post set, he’s athletic, and he basically the same chance as a guy like Wiggins to make vast improvements, but all he hear about Wiggins is "potential" and then treat Randle like he’s a finished product. If you want to argue Parker’s athletic defenciencies (which, he is actually a fine athlete just not a jaw-dropping elite one), that is fine. But Randle? I don’t see it.
Big picture. I have Embiid #1. Parker #2. And then I think it is a toss up between Wiggins, Exum, Smart, and Randle at the next tier. Im still not putting Aaron Gordon or Vonleh into that conversation quite yet.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:35am #864886
AndyBeng2ParticipantRandle is so…overrated! For anyone who has really watched a good sample of his games can see that he has no REAL post moves. His only move is to lower his left shoulder and put his elbow into the defenders abdomen and push around to the basket and throw the ball up. That absolutly will not work in the NBA. His face up game is decent and he can grow upon that, but he has no post moves or footwork.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:45am #865108
jwall1ParticipantHow is Randle overrated? Most people have him going 5 or 6 and that seems perfectly acceptable to me. Randle is dominating at the college level, and his post game is very good. Sure, he may rely on bullying his opponents and floating the ball up into the basket, but there is no reason why he cannot improve. Even though he floats the ball up and uses his left hand too much he has great touch to be getting those shots to fall consistently. His footwork is really good and his strength and athleticism are at the NBA level. You can tell that he is a guy that wants to win and improve. Saying that he has no post moves or footwork is pretty ridiculous, maybe you should try and watch more Kentucky games. After Embiid and Parker, if a team lacks a post presence and needs rebounding (Orlando, Philly, Cleveland, Boston), I dont see why Randle wouldn’t be a good pick. Wiggins has been flat out disappointing, and if he doesn’t improve I really would have a hard time taking him over Smart, Embiid, Parker and Randle.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:45am #865003
jwall1ParticipantHow is Randle overrated? Most people have him going 5 or 6 and that seems perfectly acceptable to me. Randle is dominating at the college level, and his post game is very good. Sure, he may rely on bullying his opponents and floating the ball up into the basket, but there is no reason why he cannot improve. Even though he floats the ball up and uses his left hand too much he has great touch to be getting those shots to fall consistently. His footwork is really good and his strength and athleticism are at the NBA level. You can tell that he is a guy that wants to win and improve. Saying that he has no post moves or footwork is pretty ridiculous, maybe you should try and watch more Kentucky games. After Embiid and Parker, if a team lacks a post presence and needs rebounding (Orlando, Philly, Cleveland, Boston), I dont see why Randle wouldn’t be a good pick. Wiggins has been flat out disappointing, and if he doesn’t improve I really would have a hard time taking him over Smart, Embiid, Parker and Randle.
0- Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 8:49am #865368
ElPananderoParticipantEveryone knocks on him because he’s undersized, but jared sullinger is what 6’9′ and unatheltic. He has good footwork and if he learns positioning he’ll be fine. He’s a strong dude who can get stronger and will use his body. I’d rather have a guy like randle down low than a 6’10 215 guy. Weight and positioning help a lot more than just being tall.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 8:49am #865262
ElPananderoParticipantEveryone knocks on him because he’s undersized, but jared sullinger is what 6’9′ and unatheltic. He has good footwork and if he learns positioning he’ll be fine. He’s a strong dude who can get stronger and will use his body. I’d rather have a guy like randle down low than a 6’10 215 guy. Weight and positioning help a lot more than just being tall.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:35am #864990
AndyBeng2ParticipantRandle is so…overrated! For anyone who has really watched a good sample of his games can see that he has no REAL post moves. His only move is to lower his left shoulder and put his elbow into the defenders abdomen and push around to the basket and throw the ball up. That absolutly will not work in the NBA. His face up game is decent and he can grow upon that, but he has no post moves or footwork.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:39am #864892
aaucoachParticipantthe thing about randle is that,he is atrocious on defense.watch him in a pick and roll situations.he is that rare guy who cant move his feet or protect the rim,and so far when he has went up against guys of comparable size and skill,he has been a non-factor.a big part of his struggles on offense are caused by uk’s poor spacing and lack of 3 point threats so its easy to clog the lane and aslso hard to make a truly fair assesment of him,but i do think in an nba game where their is more room to work he will be fine on offense.however,if your team doesnt have a good defensive center,i would stay away from randle.i think embid or parker will go 1 and 2 regardless of order while randles stock will depend on draft order
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:39am #864996
aaucoachParticipantthe thing about randle is that,he is atrocious on defense.watch him in a pick and roll situations.he is that rare guy who cant move his feet or protect the rim,and so far when he has went up against guys of comparable size and skill,he has been a non-factor.a big part of his struggles on offense are caused by uk’s poor spacing and lack of 3 point threats so its easy to clog the lane and aslso hard to make a truly fair assesment of him,but i do think in an nba game where their is more room to work he will be fine on offense.however,if your team doesnt have a good defensive center,i would stay away from randle.i think embid or parker will go 1 and 2 regardless of order while randles stock will depend on draft order
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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 4:59am #864972
Ghost01ParticipantI completely disagree about both Parker and Randle.
How can you say two guys who have flat out produced at the college level are "overrated" and then you throw out Wiggins at number 2?
You wanna know what makes a good defense? BIGS. That is why Carmelo Anthony has played on plus defenses in his career, that is why Durant in his younger days where he wasn’t giving a damn about defense was still on teams that were decent-good defensively.
The Bulls last season gave huge minutes to the trio of Boozer, Nate Robinson, and Bellinelli. Those 3 were playing together A LOT, and the team still was one of the best defensive teams in the league. Scheming, and rim protection are the keys to defense. There are so few guys on the perimete, especially at PG that can legitimately lock some one down. Of course you have your LBJs, and the Paul Georges, but for the most part, perimeter players will struggle from time to time just because of how quick offensive players are.
So what does all of this babbling have to do with Wiggins?
I am SOOOO sick of coming onto Wiggins hype discsussions, whether it be on here or on espn or whatever, and see people acting like this dude’s defense is going to make him a great player. I have no doubts he can be a good NBA defender, and certainly has more potential on that side of the ball than Parker. But Rod Hood is the only NBA player he has guarded this season. Yes he has the tools and he cares and all that, but lets also note on who is backing him up out there….EMBIID! Hmmm is it easier to guard someone when a 7’2 force is backing you up, or when Amile Jefferson and the immortal Marshall "I’m on the team because of my siblings" Plumlee is?
Wiggins will be a nice NBA player. But there are major red flags in terms of how unfathomably complacent he is on offense. He doesn’t take it to the rim that often, he doesn’t "want" the ball, and his overall dribbling skills were vastly overrated. His saving grace is Paul George, because it is so easy to compare the two, eventhough George made virtually all of his big improvements AFTER he came to the NBA, and its so hard to project what Wiggins will do going forward, but going from Role Player-Solid Starter-All Star-Super Star after being the 10th pick like George was is a meteoric rise. And I think that George absolutely exerts himself, and that is why his shooting percentages have never been great. He does want to take shots and make plays for his team, which isn’t ALWAYS a bad thing. Right now he is as well rounded and complete a player you will find in the NBA. Acting like Wiggins, who plays hot potato with the basketball, moves stiffly, and shoots ok will be that guy is a long shot.
And I’m not arguing you that Parker is a scorer. But he is a very very good scorer. He can do something very well. Wiggins is mostly a mess of being decent but not quite good enough at everything. I don’t think Parker is a selfish player, I’ve actually been impressed with his rebounding, and although he is never going to be any sort of a 1 v 1 defensive ace, he has been increasingly active on that end and has been creating steals and turning them into points.
Randle is getting a bad rap lately, and it shocks me. I know he is undersized, and I know he isn’t perfect. But 8th? Damn. He sure has a nice post set, he’s athletic, and he basically the same chance as a guy like Wiggins to make vast improvements, but all he hear about Wiggins is "potential" and then treat Randle like he’s a finished product. If you want to argue Parker’s athletic defenciencies (which, he is actually a fine athlete just not a jaw-dropping elite one), that is fine. But Randle? I don’t see it.
Big picture. I have Embiid #1. Parker #2. And then I think it is a toss up between Wiggins, Exum, Smart, and Randle at the next tier. Im still not putting Aaron Gordon or Vonleh into that conversation quite yet.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:21am #864872
tuck243ParticipantNext question, how do you feel about Paul George’s overall game? Scoring, defense, assists, rebounding etc?
The fact you negated everything 2 of the most successful FRESHMEN in college today are doing to "it won’t work in the NBA" is kinda sad. Then this statement as if Wiggins is a lock down defender "He’s a guy LeBron’s gonna have to shoot jumpers over". LeBron? You really think Wiggins will be able to stop LeBron? Really? Wiggins isn’t strong enough to even finish at the rim much less stop LeBron. There isn’t one true lock down defender in the league other than Tony Allen. The rest of the good defensive players are playing on a defensive team. I watched with my own 2 eyes Paul George (someone who is touted for his defensive game) get slaughtered by Melo, LeBron, and KD in one on one settings. He’s able to stay with them long enough and make it tough for them, but they still gonna score 35 if there’s no help defense. This whole notion that you NEED to be able to lock down ppl to be successful in the league is beyond ridiculous to me. Its the NBA with no hand checking, you won’t be able to stop many players from scoring 35 on you one on one. What you can do is not miss your rotations and see man/ball at all times; you can close out on shooters. All of which makes a GREAT defense team, which all could be taught you don’t need pure athleticism to accomplish this. Lance is praised for his defense, he has so-so speed and athletic ability. He damn sure wasn’t a defensive player coming out of Cincinnati. What changed was his effort and team defense.
Its crazy that you would want to pick Wiggins #2 with all you said about him. "He’s never gonna be the alpha dog in the NBA." Question: Would you pick a non-passing Iggy over Melo?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:21am #864976
tuck243ParticipantNext question, how do you feel about Paul George’s overall game? Scoring, defense, assists, rebounding etc?
The fact you negated everything 2 of the most successful FRESHMEN in college today are doing to "it won’t work in the NBA" is kinda sad. Then this statement as if Wiggins is a lock down defender "He’s a guy LeBron’s gonna have to shoot jumpers over". LeBron? You really think Wiggins will be able to stop LeBron? Really? Wiggins isn’t strong enough to even finish at the rim much less stop LeBron. There isn’t one true lock down defender in the league other than Tony Allen. The rest of the good defensive players are playing on a defensive team. I watched with my own 2 eyes Paul George (someone who is touted for his defensive game) get slaughtered by Melo, LeBron, and KD in one on one settings. He’s able to stay with them long enough and make it tough for them, but they still gonna score 35 if there’s no help defense. This whole notion that you NEED to be able to lock down ppl to be successful in the league is beyond ridiculous to me. Its the NBA with no hand checking, you won’t be able to stop many players from scoring 35 on you one on one. What you can do is not miss your rotations and see man/ball at all times; you can close out on shooters. All of which makes a GREAT defense team, which all could be taught you don’t need pure athleticism to accomplish this. Lance is praised for his defense, he has so-so speed and athletic ability. He damn sure wasn’t a defensive player coming out of Cincinnati. What changed was his effort and team defense.
Its crazy that you would want to pick Wiggins #2 with all you said about him. "He’s never gonna be the alpha dog in the NBA." Question: Would you pick a non-passing Iggy over Melo?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:23am #864874
max23ParticipantI agree on the Wiggins is an awesome defender ready to shut down nba sfs being mostly hype right now.Hes good,has potential,but like its been said he hasnt shut down anyone.People act like he hasnt been blown by,or scored on a lot.Well watch what Markell Brown did to him when he was on the floor…
I dont totally agree on your opinions( Parker being a bad rebounder thing for one)but i respect your love for defense.What do you think of Gary Harris and Lavine?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:23am #864978
max23ParticipantI agree on the Wiggins is an awesome defender ready to shut down nba sfs being mostly hype right now.Hes good,has potential,but like its been said he hasnt shut down anyone.People act like he hasnt been blown by,or scored on a lot.Well watch what Markell Brown did to him when he was on the floor…
I dont totally agree on your opinions( Parker being a bad rebounder thing for one)but i respect your love for defense.What do you think of Gary Harris and Lavine?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:36am #864876
Ghost01ParticipantGood points about defense guys.
One v One defense is the most overrated thing in assessing talent ever. Its the NBA. You aren’t stopping LeBron James, or Kevin Durant. And if you are going to slow them down, its because it is a great team effort.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:36am #864980
Ghost01ParticipantGood points about defense guys.
One v One defense is the most overrated thing in assessing talent ever. Its the NBA. You aren’t stopping LeBron James, or Kevin Durant. And if you are going to slow them down, its because it is a great team effort.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:27am #864880
druneave3ParticipantI agree with you that Parker and Randle are overrated, but people on this site seem to love them both though. Surprised you have Vonleh so high and Exum so low. Wiggins at #2 is fine but you failed to mention his lack of a consistent effort and his complacency. This might seem weird but I hate the way he stands with his hands on hips and the way his hands bounce when he runs. Both of those actions just depict a sense of laziness to me.
Who are the last two players to round out your top 10?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 6:27am #864984
druneave3ParticipantI agree with you that Parker and Randle are overrated, but people on this site seem to love them both though. Surprised you have Vonleh so high and Exum so low. Wiggins at #2 is fine but you failed to mention his lack of a consistent effort and his complacency. This might seem weird but I hate the way he stands with his hands on hips and the way his hands bounce when he runs. Both of those actions just depict a sense of laziness to me.
Who are the last two players to round out your top 10?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:03am #864906
ngnqqParticipantWhy does it seem like every year, the edgy thing to do is put down UK prospects? I remember people on this site saying Davis would be a massive bust.
Anyway, the thing with Randle is he gets double/triple teamed every time he touches the ball, and still manages to get a double double. His defense isn’t the greatest, but when your team has WCS in the middle, does it really need to be? Randle is going to have an easier time in the NBA than he does in college. He should be the top PF prospect — assuming you consider Jabari to be a SF. Top 5-6 pick, for sure.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:03am #865010
ngnqqParticipantWhy does it seem like every year, the edgy thing to do is put down UK prospects? I remember people on this site saying Davis would be a massive bust.
Anyway, the thing with Randle is he gets double/triple teamed every time he touches the ball, and still manages to get a double double. His defense isn’t the greatest, but when your team has WCS in the middle, does it really need to be? Randle is going to have an easier time in the NBA than he does in college. He should be the top PF prospect — assuming you consider Jabari to be a SF. Top 5-6 pick, for sure.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:13am #864912
lalailaParticipantI absolutely DISAGREE on Randle.. what makes you think he won’t be that ‘undersized’ bulldog inside scorer/rebounder as most of todays TOP PF are like? (Griffin,Randolph,Lee,Love,West…)
he is 250lbs teenager who (if you have seen him without t-shirt in his post-workout dunk-contest) looks still pretty skinny..yeah, he can be one day 260 plus force inside, and unlike guys who failed because of that tweener sindrome(Beasley, Williams?) he knows how to use his strenght and he knows he is a true power-forward..
he really rebounds well not only because of athleticism but he kinda looks hungry for ball like you see from those 20/10 fellas..
plus he can handle and he finally started to make those jump shots he is capable to make. He also can pass a little, and looks pretty unselfish..
and you said his offense is bully a nothing more, but how about his face up game where he might have the best first step out of any college bigman, or how about those half hooks, back to the basket moves, those fakes left-right
ALSO it has to mean something when you match up someone who is supposed to be as big and atheltic and able to stop you and you do whatever you want against him (27/13 vs MSU with Paynee ; 18points in 1half agains Louisville and Harrell in foul trouble)
it’s not like he will be superstar, but an allstar player who once in a while avg 20/10 an makes it to a few all-star games, that’s what a really can see him reaching
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:34am #865026
aaucoachParticipantmajority of randles buckets against msu came against the 6’6 dawson,not payne,and harrel is also an undersized 4.when he went against unc and baylors big front lines,he looked like a totally different player
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:34am #864922
aaucoachParticipantmajority of randles buckets against msu came against the 6’6 dawson,not payne,and harrel is also an undersized 4.when he went against unc and baylors big front lines,he looked like a totally different player
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:44am #865032
lalailaParticipantHarrell might be "undersized" because he isn’t tall but he has body similar to Brand or West, very long arms and brute strength.. even in the NBA not every day you will face Anthony davis with his lenght or Aldridge with his overall size..
actually not only PF in today’s game has became smaller, but there isn’t that much shot blocking defensive Power forwards..
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:44am #864928
lalailaParticipantHarrell might be "undersized" because he isn’t tall but he has body similar to Brand or West, very long arms and brute strength.. even in the NBA not every day you will face Anthony davis with his lenght or Aldridge with his overall size..
actually not only PF in today’s game has became smaller, but there isn’t that much shot blocking defensive Power forwards..
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:01am #865040
aaucoachParticipantbut we already know randle can score against similar sized guys.its when he is faced with bigger guys thats the issue
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:01am #864936
aaucoachParticipantbut we already know randle can score against similar sized guys.its when he is faced with bigger guys thats the issue
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:32am #865106
redeyejediParticipantJust like Thomas Robinson of KU, he dominates at this level due to his physical profile and not his skillset.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:32am #865001
redeyejediParticipantJust like Thomas Robinson of KU, he dominates at this level due to his physical profile and not his skillset.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:05pm #865025
druneave3Participant4 out of the 5 guys you mentioned are 6’10. Randle isn’t that and doesn’t have much length either. You are fooling yourself if you don’t think he has struggled playing against length this season. Some may say he is crafty around the rim but I see it more as an akwardness to his finishing abilities given the amount of adjustments on his shot while he is in the air. I just have my doubts if that approach will be successful in the league against bigger, faster, stronger, better players. Don’t like his overall feel for the game that much either, or his effort on the defensive end.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:43pm #865043
lalailaParticipantoutside of Blake I really don’t think any other guy is a full inch taller than Julius.. He actually has measured 6’10 once and 6’9 twice..
and the main thing outside of West I believe all other guys have shorter than 7′ wings like Randle..
sooooo…..
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:43pm #865147
lalailaParticipantoutside of Blake I really don’t think any other guy is a full inch taller than Julius.. He actually has measured 6’10 once and 6’9 twice..
and the main thing outside of West I believe all other guys have shorter than 7′ wings like Randle..
sooooo…..
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:05pm #865129
druneave3Participant4 out of the 5 guys you mentioned are 6’10. Randle isn’t that and doesn’t have much length either. You are fooling yourself if you don’t think he has struggled playing against length this season. Some may say he is crafty around the rim but I see it more as an akwardness to his finishing abilities given the amount of adjustments on his shot while he is in the air. I just have my doubts if that approach will be successful in the league against bigger, faster, stronger, better players. Don’t like his overall feel for the game that much either, or his effort on the defensive end.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:13am #865016
lalailaParticipantI absolutely DISAGREE on Randle.. what makes you think he won’t be that ‘undersized’ bulldog inside scorer/rebounder as most of todays TOP PF are like? (Griffin,Randolph,Lee,Love,West…)
he is 250lbs teenager who (if you have seen him without t-shirt in his post-workout dunk-contest) looks still pretty skinny..yeah, he can be one day 260 plus force inside, and unlike guys who failed because of that tweener sindrome(Beasley, Williams?) he knows how to use his strenght and he knows he is a true power-forward..
he really rebounds well not only because of athleticism but he kinda looks hungry for ball like you see from those 20/10 fellas..
plus he can handle and he finally started to make those jump shots he is capable to make. He also can pass a little, and looks pretty unselfish..
and you said his offense is bully a nothing more, but how about his face up game where he might have the best first step out of any college bigman, or how about those half hooks, back to the basket moves, those fakes left-right
ALSO it has to mean something when you match up someone who is supposed to be as big and atheltic and able to stop you and you do whatever you want against him (27/13 vs MSU with Paynee ; 18points in 1half agains Louisville and Harrell in foul trouble)
it’s not like he will be superstar, but an allstar player who once in a while avg 20/10 an makes it to a few all-star games, that’s what a really can see him reaching
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:26am #865024
Memphis MadnessParticipantI think Randle might have less UPSIDE than Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, or Smart. Those four have superstar "potential". I don’t see anyone projecting Randle as a first rate superstar, but I have heard all-star talk. Randle’s floor might be higher though — a prototype power forward who gives you what you expect (scoring inside and rebounding).
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 7:26am #864920
Memphis MadnessParticipantI think Randle might have less UPSIDE than Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, or Smart. Those four have superstar "potential". I don’t see anyone projecting Randle as a first rate superstar, but I have heard all-star talk. Randle’s floor might be higher though — a prototype power forward who gives you what you expect (scoring inside and rebounding).
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:57am #865111
jwall1ParticipantI wouldn’t say that Randle does not have superstar potential. I think all this talk about potential, ceiling and etc is a little ridiculous. For example, I know I am not the only one that is surprised James Harden has become a superstar. Not a great athlete but it is the intangibles and skill that have gotten him where he is today. Kevin Love is similar in size to Randle, and he is a superstar. There are so many factors that determine whether or not a player will become a superstar. Sure, size/athleticism are some of those factors, but others like mentality, motor, drive, attitude, and etc are just as important.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:57am #865007
jwall1ParticipantI wouldn’t say that Randle does not have superstar potential. I think all this talk about potential, ceiling and etc is a little ridiculous. For example, I know I am not the only one that is surprised James Harden has become a superstar. Not a great athlete but it is the intangibles and skill that have gotten him where he is today. Kevin Love is similar in size to Randle, and he is a superstar. There are so many factors that determine whether or not a player will become a superstar. Sure, size/athleticism are some of those factors, but others like mentality, motor, drive, attitude, and etc are just as important.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:24am #865048
Land of GrantParticipantThese are just my opinions guys, not trying to offend anyone. Yall are right that I overrated defense, and I did exaggerate with the guys I liked. I don’t think Wiggins and Gordon can stop Lebron and Durant, just that they can keep them from taking over, and maybe coax a below-average performance out of them. Also, both Wiggins and Gordon have done great jobs on Parker this year. By the way, I think Parker and Randle are great prospects, and in a normal draft they’d be ironclad top 3 picks, but this one is something else.
The reason I tend against guys like Jabari is that I don’t like players that only contribute significantly in one facet of the game. The only unique thing about Jabari is his scoring, whereas Embiid, say, will be a guy who can score, rebound, defend, and run the floor better than most bigs.
And I’m not obsessed with potential, I put Exum at 7 who is pure potential, it’s just that there are guys who can develop more significantly than others. Randle doesn’t have great size and athleticism, and he seems to have found his game, so I think there’s just less of a chance of dramatic change in how good a player he is. Wiggins, by contrast, has all the tools and hasn’t found his game, so he could be anything.
I think I’m just a bit of a draft hipster. Vonleh is gonna end up being the hipster choice.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:24am #864944
Land of GrantParticipantThese are just my opinions guys, not trying to offend anyone. Yall are right that I overrated defense, and I did exaggerate with the guys I liked. I don’t think Wiggins and Gordon can stop Lebron and Durant, just that they can keep them from taking over, and maybe coax a below-average performance out of them. Also, both Wiggins and Gordon have done great jobs on Parker this year. By the way, I think Parker and Randle are great prospects, and in a normal draft they’d be ironclad top 3 picks, but this one is something else.
The reason I tend against guys like Jabari is that I don’t like players that only contribute significantly in one facet of the game. The only unique thing about Jabari is his scoring, whereas Embiid, say, will be a guy who can score, rebound, defend, and run the floor better than most bigs.
And I’m not obsessed with potential, I put Exum at 7 who is pure potential, it’s just that there are guys who can develop more significantly than others. Randle doesn’t have great size and athleticism, and he seems to have found his game, so I think there’s just less of a chance of dramatic change in how good a player he is. Wiggins, by contrast, has all the tools and hasn’t found his game, so he could be anything.
I think I’m just a bit of a draft hipster. Vonleh is gonna end up being the hipster choice.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:04am #865064
aaucoachParticipantdont apologize for your opinion dude.nothing wroing with your views.you took your time and made a well thought out post and it turned into a good discussion.people will neg you for anything big or small so dont take offense to it.
jabari doesnt just contribute in 1 facet,he is just a great scorer so of course that gets all the hype.he rebs well,can create for others and has the athleticism to go coast to coast.he isnt a 1 dimensional guy at all.
if your not a great fan of potential,and you admit wiggins hasnt found his game yet,then that should mean he shouldnt be number 2
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:04am #864959
aaucoachParticipantdont apologize for your opinion dude.nothing wroing with your views.you took your time and made a well thought out post and it turned into a good discussion.people will neg you for anything big or small so dont take offense to it.
jabari doesnt just contribute in 1 facet,he is just a great scorer so of course that gets all the hype.he rebs well,can create for others and has the athleticism to go coast to coast.he isnt a 1 dimensional guy at all.
if your not a great fan of potential,and you admit wiggins hasnt found his game yet,then that should mean he shouldnt be number 2
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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:54am #865062
JoeWolf1I can’t believe this thread is at -12 right now, but that’s besides the point. I liked it and thought it was well written.
I’m glad you included Noah Vonleh. I think he’s going to be a late riser in June. Number 4 is higher than I’d put him, but I don’t think 7 or 8 is out of the question for him. I feel he has the size and length to play PF in the NBA, but also guard the rim like many centers do. In addition, he is raw as far as post moves and overall offense, but I think his emerging face up game is a good sign going forward…especially in the pick and pop game. Defensive power forwards who’ve gained jumpers over time like Taj Gibson, and Serge Ibaka are very nice pieces and I feel Vonleh could be cut from that same cloth…and he’s a guy with a lot of untapped potential as well.
This draft has a lot of potential star power at the top, but I think nabbing a guy who could be a 14/9/1.5 guy at the next level isn’t a bad option from 7-10 in this draft…being only 19 as well, with some more polish I feel he could even be a 16 or 17 ppg guy in his prime.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 8:54am #864957
JoeWolf1I can’t believe this thread is at -12 right now, but that’s besides the point. I liked it and thought it was well written.
I’m glad you included Noah Vonleh. I think he’s going to be a late riser in June. Number 4 is higher than I’d put him, but I don’t think 7 or 8 is out of the question for him. I feel he has the size and length to play PF in the NBA, but also guard the rim like many centers do. In addition, he is raw as far as post moves and overall offense, but I think his emerging face up game is a good sign going forward…especially in the pick and pop game. Defensive power forwards who’ve gained jumpers over time like Taj Gibson, and Serge Ibaka are very nice pieces and I feel Vonleh could be cut from that same cloth…and he’s a guy with a lot of untapped potential as well.
This draft has a lot of potential star power at the top, but I think nabbing a guy who could be a 14/9/1.5 guy at the next level isn’t a bad option from 7-10 in this draft…being only 19 as well, with some more polish I feel he could even be a 16 or 17 ppg guy in his prime.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:06am #865066
aaucoachParticipantdo you think vonleh is a derrick favors type of player?
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:06am #864961
aaucoachParticipantdo you think vonleh is a derrick favors type of player?
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:48am #865098
JoeWolf1I don’t think they’re too far off, and I suspect a guy like Vonleh could really maximize his natural strength with an NBA weights program, much like Favors did.
I feel Vonleh has more perimeter and pick and pop potential just because Favors at GT was pretty much an in the paint type of guy. He didn’t look confortable stepping out and shooting, while on the other hand Vonleh can do that with more confidence.
I just think Vonleh has a better shooting touch, although Favors is an above average FT shooter( for a big), even this season ( his 4th ) he’s just shooting 31% past 16 feet and is just a 35% jump shooter in general. I give props to Derrick because he’s clearly worked on this part of his game, compare him to last year and he was shooting 26% past 16 feet, but I think a more developed jumper at a younger age gives Vonleh much more perimeter potential, epscially when you look at the fact he’s 10-18 from the college 3 point line this season at age 18.
I think when all is said and done, Favors will be a better defender. I really think he’ll be an All-Defensive 2nd or 1st teamer year in and year out when he hits his prime ( he’s still only 22!)
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:48am #864993
JoeWolf1I don’t think they’re too far off, and I suspect a guy like Vonleh could really maximize his natural strength with an NBA weights program, much like Favors did.
I feel Vonleh has more perimeter and pick and pop potential just because Favors at GT was pretty much an in the paint type of guy. He didn’t look confortable stepping out and shooting, while on the other hand Vonleh can do that with more confidence.
I just think Vonleh has a better shooting touch, although Favors is an above average FT shooter( for a big), even this season ( his 4th ) he’s just shooting 31% past 16 feet and is just a 35% jump shooter in general. I give props to Derrick because he’s clearly worked on this part of his game, compare him to last year and he was shooting 26% past 16 feet, but I think a more developed jumper at a younger age gives Vonleh much more perimeter potential, epscially when you look at the fact he’s 10-18 from the college 3 point line this season at age 18.
I think when all is said and done, Favors will be a better defender. I really think he’ll be an All-Defensive 2nd or 1st teamer year in and year out when he hits his prime ( he’s still only 22!)
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:16pm #865027
druneave3ParticipantCompletely agree with everything you said. I see Vonleh as more of a Chris Bosh type player, and more of a peremiter player. Favors did get bigger NBA programs but I think he always had a bigger frame and more mass than Vonleh.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:16pm #865131
druneave3ParticipantCompletely agree with everything you said. I see Vonleh as more of a Chris Bosh type player, and more of a peremiter player. Favors did get bigger NBA programs but I think he always had a bigger frame and more mass than Vonleh.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:15am #865074
AndyBeng2ParticipantI love your opinion on Vonleh, he is a stud and a year younger than his class. He is still 18 and won’t turn 19 till August. He has great footwork and a nice over the shoulder shot. He has a massive wingspan and alters a lot of shots. He needs to work on his foul trouble and keep the ball up high, he gets blocked a lot in Big 10 play. He can really move well and I’ve seen flashes of what his handle can be.
He keeps the ball low on his dribble and Crean needs to call some plays and let him drive from the high post b/c the IU players have a tought time getting the ball to him in the low post.
Overall, he has gobs of potential and the desire to get better. I just hope he comes back for his sophomore season.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:15am #864969
AndyBeng2ParticipantI love your opinion on Vonleh, he is a stud and a year younger than his class. He is still 18 and won’t turn 19 till August. He has great footwork and a nice over the shoulder shot. He has a massive wingspan and alters a lot of shots. He needs to work on his foul trouble and keep the ball up high, he gets blocked a lot in Big 10 play. He can really move well and I’ve seen flashes of what his handle can be.
He keeps the ball low on his dribble and Crean needs to call some plays and let him drive from the high post b/c the IU players have a tought time getting the ball to him in the low post.
Overall, he has gobs of potential and the desire to get better. I just hope he comes back for his sophomore season.
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- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:09am #865070
LindseyParticipantIm lost on this consensus that almost putting up 16 and 7 as an 18yr old against the nations toughest schedule is "not showing anything". You’re all conflicting yourselves by dropping this whole argument against the 1v1, superstar mentality of the league, and then when youre presented with someone who is playing within his teams system that hes putting up those numbers and doing it so quietly people still think he’s not doing shiet…and his team has just beat 4 straight top 25 teams fairly convincingly. I dunno man. I see a guy who at the very LEAST will be a winning ball player putting up the same numbers he is now.
People hear the rediculous comparisons and think he’ll be as good as them now, and dont realize KD was ripped for being only a scorer, Lebron had ALL the same criticism Wiggins does now except passing and mentality, and Kobe put up how many points his rookie year?
And to the questions about his Defence, ever since he gained Selfs trust after the Duke game, check the numbers of the oppositions leading scorers when guarded by wiggins. I think maybe one or two people have had good nights. tops. And that solid lockdown and stop your man from scoring defence is way more important that jumping passing lanes, or at every shot fake for stats.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 9:09am #864965
LindseyParticipantIm lost on this consensus that almost putting up 16 and 7 as an 18yr old against the nations toughest schedule is "not showing anything". You’re all conflicting yourselves by dropping this whole argument against the 1v1, superstar mentality of the league, and then when youre presented with someone who is playing within his teams system that hes putting up those numbers and doing it so quietly people still think he’s not doing shiet…and his team has just beat 4 straight top 25 teams fairly convincingly. I dunno man. I see a guy who at the very LEAST will be a winning ball player putting up the same numbers he is now.
People hear the rediculous comparisons and think he’ll be as good as them now, and dont realize KD was ripped for being only a scorer, Lebron had ALL the same criticism Wiggins does now except passing and mentality, and Kobe put up how many points his rookie year?
And to the questions about his Defence, ever since he gained Selfs trust after the Duke game, check the numbers of the oppositions leading scorers when guarded by wiggins. I think maybe one or two people have had good nights. tops. And that solid lockdown and stop your man from scoring defence is way more important that jumping passing lanes, or at every shot fake for stats.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:01pm #865125
Ghost01ParticipantCan we please stop with this "He’s producing at 18 years old! Against college players!" stuff?
No shyyt. We all watch the games and know that he is producing. I don’t look at players stats, because its so funny to me how the defenders of the KU teammates want everyone to A. Ignore Embiid’s stats because they aren’t that impressive and B. Act like Wiggins stats are the only thing that matters when assessing him.
No one here has said Wiggins is a bad college player or won’t be a good pro. No one. Not one person. Kevin Durant was a 30 PPG 10+ RPG college player. So no, no one had much doubt he was going to be awesome. I also missed everyone doubting LeBron James, you must listen to Skip Bayless a lot because everyone else pretty much new was insanely good from the start. You also contradict yourself by saying that we shouldn’t hold Wiggins to high standards, and then compare him to KD and LBJ, and then more hilariously defend it like its a reasonable comparison.
I have no problem with Andrew Wiggins, if you like him. I don’t see how Parker and Randle are overrated and he isn’t. That’s what I don’t get. If your argument is all 3 have had ups and downs and play on different teams, that is valid. From what I have watched, I just don’t like how Wiggins plays. You’re right, he does score in the flow of a team game. But he also usually scores all of his points in bunches, and is non-existent for at least a good part of the game. He also has had a few of his bigger games where he got hot in the 2nd half of a game that was a forgone conclusion.
Offensively, I just don’t like him. He doesn’t seem like he has a ton of offensive skill. He isn’t a great shooter, he doesn’t get to the rim with easy, and his dribbling is not very good. I know he’s good defensively. But not one time did everyone think defense for perimeter players was the most important thing in the world, until they watched Andrew Wiggins played and needed an excuse for why he is so great. And Wiggins isn’t Tony Allen, either.
Just please stop with the "18 year old kid" stuff. Randle and Parker are the same age. KD was the same age, Derrick Rose was the same age, hell Jerryd Bayless was the same age averaging 20 a night. The learning curve for basketball players has advanced.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:01pm #865021
Ghost01ParticipantCan we please stop with this "He’s producing at 18 years old! Against college players!" stuff?
No shyyt. We all watch the games and know that he is producing. I don’t look at players stats, because its so funny to me how the defenders of the KU teammates want everyone to A. Ignore Embiid’s stats because they aren’t that impressive and B. Act like Wiggins stats are the only thing that matters when assessing him.
No one here has said Wiggins is a bad college player or won’t be a good pro. No one. Not one person. Kevin Durant was a 30 PPG 10+ RPG college player. So no, no one had much doubt he was going to be awesome. I also missed everyone doubting LeBron James, you must listen to Skip Bayless a lot because everyone else pretty much new was insanely good from the start. You also contradict yourself by saying that we shouldn’t hold Wiggins to high standards, and then compare him to KD and LBJ, and then more hilariously defend it like its a reasonable comparison.
I have no problem with Andrew Wiggins, if you like him. I don’t see how Parker and Randle are overrated and he isn’t. That’s what I don’t get. If your argument is all 3 have had ups and downs and play on different teams, that is valid. From what I have watched, I just don’t like how Wiggins plays. You’re right, he does score in the flow of a team game. But he also usually scores all of his points in bunches, and is non-existent for at least a good part of the game. He also has had a few of his bigger games where he got hot in the 2nd half of a game that was a forgone conclusion.
Offensively, I just don’t like him. He doesn’t seem like he has a ton of offensive skill. He isn’t a great shooter, he doesn’t get to the rim with easy, and his dribbling is not very good. I know he’s good defensively. But not one time did everyone think defense for perimeter players was the most important thing in the world, until they watched Andrew Wiggins played and needed an excuse for why he is so great. And Wiggins isn’t Tony Allen, either.
Just please stop with the "18 year old kid" stuff. Randle and Parker are the same age. KD was the same age, Derrick Rose was the same age, hell Jerryd Bayless was the same age averaging 20 a night. The learning curve for basketball players has advanced.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:04am #865115
Mad MaxParticipantEveryone, including myself, is a wannabe know-it-all and a dumbass. Quit acting like your an expert.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:04am #865011
Mad MaxParticipantEveryone, including myself, is a wannabe know-it-all and a dumbass. Quit acting like your an expert.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:10pm #865035
B-ball fanParticipantSilly that it got so many negs because of people’s disagreement with the rankings. I think anybody who posts a ranking of players on this site that is even slightly original and not just a copy of the site’s mock is going to be negged big time, even if it is a well thought out post, as this one was.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:10pm #865139
B-ball fanParticipantSilly that it got so many negs because of people’s disagreement with the rankings. I think anybody who posts a ranking of players on this site that is even slightly original and not just a copy of the site’s mock is going to be negged big time, even if it is a well thought out post, as this one was.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:19pm #865037
CavFanPRParticipantCan’t believe nobody has compared Vonleh to Chris Bosh. They are so similar it’s not even funny.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:19pm #865141
CavFanPRParticipantCan’t believe nobody has compared Vonleh to Chris Bosh. They are so similar it’s not even funny.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:46pm #865047
Land of GrantParticipantVonleh seems less of a Bosh type and more of an inside player, but at this point he could develop into anything. I don’t know what Bosh was in college but he certainly seems like a much better athlete than Bosh is now, as well as just a more hard-nosed dude. Bosh is and was a better shooter, and Vonleh’s stroke is such that he could be a guy who’s a non-factor outside the paint in the league, or a Bosh type dude. So much uncertainty around him, which is sort of what’s attractive about him, and why he’s gonna end up being a top 5 pick. Chad Ford seems to have a boner for him too, for what it’s worth.
By the way, shout outs to joewolf and aaucoach and other dudes who were for being nice to me even though I got negged. It’s pretty dumb that guys neg because they don’t like the opinion, people should neg if it’s a dumb post that took no effort, but it’s nice that my opinions are getting discussed.
0- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 2:58pm #865061
Ghost01ParticipantI didn’t neg you.
But understand something about this site…if you have an opinion, you are getting negged 99% of the time. Joewolf and them agree with you and like Embiid and Wiggins and that is why they are saying that. If this was a "Embiid and Wiggins are overrated" topic, they would have negged it and people who like Parker and Randle would be wondering why it was getting negged.
As I said – the reason I take problem with your overall argument is because I don’t agree that Wiggins gets a free pass on being a complacent offensive player because he is a good defender. I like good defense, but defense on the interior is so much more important, and that’s why I like Embiid. It’s pretty easy to look at guys like Kyrie Irving and James Harden and compare them to players like Tony Allen and Thabo Sefolosha. The first two are all stars, the 2nd two are barely startable. Offense > Defense in terms of 1 v 1. You build a good defense with scheming and big men.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 2:58pm #865165
Ghost01ParticipantI didn’t neg you.
But understand something about this site…if you have an opinion, you are getting negged 99% of the time. Joewolf and them agree with you and like Embiid and Wiggins and that is why they are saying that. If this was a "Embiid and Wiggins are overrated" topic, they would have negged it and people who like Parker and Randle would be wondering why it was getting negged.
As I said – the reason I take problem with your overall argument is because I don’t agree that Wiggins gets a free pass on being a complacent offensive player because he is a good defender. I like good defense, but defense on the interior is so much more important, and that’s why I like Embiid. It’s pretty easy to look at guys like Kyrie Irving and James Harden and compare them to players like Tony Allen and Thabo Sefolosha. The first two are all stars, the 2nd two are barely startable. Offense > Defense in terms of 1 v 1. You build a good defense with scheming and big men.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:46pm #865151
Land of GrantParticipantVonleh seems less of a Bosh type and more of an inside player, but at this point he could develop into anything. I don’t know what Bosh was in college but he certainly seems like a much better athlete than Bosh is now, as well as just a more hard-nosed dude. Bosh is and was a better shooter, and Vonleh’s stroke is such that he could be a guy who’s a non-factor outside the paint in the league, or a Bosh type dude. So much uncertainty around him, which is sort of what’s attractive about him, and why he’s gonna end up being a top 5 pick. Chad Ford seems to have a boner for him too, for what it’s worth.
By the way, shout outs to joewolf and aaucoach and other dudes who were for being nice to me even though I got negged. It’s pretty dumb that guys neg because they don’t like the opinion, people should neg if it’s a dumb post that took no effort, but it’s nice that my opinions are getting discussed.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:46pm #865045
Land of GrantParticipant0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 1:46pm #865149
Land of GrantParticipant0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:08pm #865107
Land of GrantParticipantIrving and Harden vs Tony Allen and Sefolosha is a good argument, but I think people tend to undervalue defense. Allen + Thabo shouldn’t be considered barely startable, because they are elite in the area that encompasses half of the game. The reason why a great individual on offense is better than one on defense is that player can dictate the game, whereas a defender just has to react, but other than that, there’s nothing really, so while Irving and Harden are more valuable than guys like Thabo, the disparity isn’t as big as conventional wisdom would have you believe. The reason that I rate Wiggins is that, not only will he be an elite defender, he’ll be a good offensive player, so it’s not as if Wiggins vs Parker is Tony Allen vs Carmelo Anthony, it’s closer to Paul George vs Carmelo Anthony. I’m not making player comparisons, here, just putting the argument into perspective.
0- Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 5:13am #865310
Ghost01ParticipantMost of what you said is entirely true. I think the reason Allen is barely startable is in this day and age it is so hard to start wing players who can’t shoot. It just kills your spacing and ball movement.
Here is my thing with Parker vs Anthony. It is not in any way a bad comparison and I don’t think anyone thinks they are exactly the same, but as much as people dislike Anthony for not being an all around player, the biggest gripe with him is he just seems to have no understanding of team basketball. If Anthony passed more, and if Anthony seemed like a guy more focused on winning, but still had the same physical deficiencies he has now, people would like him a lot more. And that’s Parker. Yes scoring is definitely his no.1 attribute as a player, but he isn’t just a relentless chucker. At least he seems happy when his teammates do well and isn’t obsessed with the spotlight (Hood has had the ball in his hands both times Duke had a do-or-die final possession of a game).
Btw, Wiggins was very good yesterday. Hopefully he continues to player more like that.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 5:13am #865205
Ghost01ParticipantMost of what you said is entirely true. I think the reason Allen is barely startable is in this day and age it is so hard to start wing players who can’t shoot. It just kills your spacing and ball movement.
Here is my thing with Parker vs Anthony. It is not in any way a bad comparison and I don’t think anyone thinks they are exactly the same, but as much as people dislike Anthony for not being an all around player, the biggest gripe with him is he just seems to have no understanding of team basketball. If Anthony passed more, and if Anthony seemed like a guy more focused on winning, but still had the same physical deficiencies he has now, people would like him a lot more. And that’s Parker. Yes scoring is definitely his no.1 attribute as a player, but he isn’t just a relentless chucker. At least he seems happy when his teammates do well and isn’t obsessed with the spotlight (Hood has had the ball in his hands both times Duke had a do-or-die final possession of a game).
Btw, Wiggins was very good yesterday. Hopefully he continues to player more like that.
0
- Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:08pm #865212
Land of GrantParticipantIrving and Harden vs Tony Allen and Sefolosha is a good argument, but I think people tend to undervalue defense. Allen + Thabo shouldn’t be considered barely startable, because they are elite in the area that encompasses half of the game. The reason why a great individual on offense is better than one on defense is that player can dictate the game, whereas a defender just has to react, but other than that, there’s nothing really, so while Irving and Harden are more valuable than guys like Thabo, the disparity isn’t as big as conventional wisdom would have you believe. The reason that I rate Wiggins is that, not only will he be an elite defender, he’ll be a good offensive player, so it’s not as if Wiggins vs Parker is Tony Allen vs Carmelo Anthony, it’s closer to Paul George vs Carmelo Anthony. I’m not making player comparisons, here, just putting the argument into perspective.
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:58pm #865116
mamadouParticipantVonleh has so many tools you can’t ignore at that young age.
18 YO, not many prospects have that kind of size, strenght, length, shooting(9/12 from deep in his last 6 games), rebounding(ridiculous numbers), hustle, defenseS(individual D, post D, weakside shot blocking, team D, help D), attitude, motor, neck……upside.
He was supposedly a combo forward(mashburn…LOL) but he is actually a PF-C, a positive tweener, huge PF or capable-responsible C( a + in a 3 bigs rotation), at the end of the day(growth), he’ll be a 6’11 260 pounder with a great wingspan.
2 way players like him and gordon will rise at the end, there’s not 30 chris grant in this league, not even 10…not even 2…the top 6 won’t be the actual top 6.
He’s a laker IMHO…
0 - Posted on: Sat, 01/25/2014 - 5:58pm #865220
mamadouParticipantVonleh has so many tools you can’t ignore at that young age.
18 YO, not many prospects have that kind of size, strenght, length, shooting(9/12 from deep in his last 6 games), rebounding(ridiculous numbers), hustle, defenseS(individual D, post D, weakside shot blocking, team D, help D), attitude, motor, neck……upside.
He was supposedly a combo forward(mashburn…LOL) but he is actually a PF-C, a positive tweener, huge PF or capable-responsible C( a + in a 3 bigs rotation), at the end of the day(growth), he’ll be a 6’11 260 pounder with a great wingspan.
2 way players like him and gordon will rise at the end, there’s not 30 chris grant in this league, not even 10…not even 2…the top 6 won’t be the actual top 6.
He’s a laker IMHO…
0 - Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 4:35pm #865542
tuck243ParticipantHe stated Jabari "…be a 6.5 rpg guy at best" At best? That’s why I asked does he watch NBA small forwards, (or the NBA at all), to not realize 6.5 rebounds a game is actually pretty damn good. Hell Paul George doesn’t average that many rebounds per game.
Why would you even take a player like Noah who plays like Derrick Favors over Randle? Derrick Favors not even GOOD!!! What am I missing here? I have watched enough of that kid to already know he’s going to be a typical journeyman, dude can’t even dominate offensively in college on the same team that Cody Zeller had decent success on. So many big men has come into the league with the same type of game as him and done ABSOLUTELY nothing. Jordan Hill is one. You can’t even tell me one success story for the past 7 years where a player that plays similar to Vonleh was able to be an All-Star. Not ONE.
Please stop with this defensive player crap. Name the All-Star players that got picked to start. Only 2 of them actually play defense and that’s LeBron & Paul George. Defense is a TEAM concept that a whole team has to focus on. Carlos Boozer is FAR from a defensive guy, but he’s on one of the top defensive teams. I’m amazed that you guys would even talk down about Randle’s and Jabari’s lack of defense when some of the top players don’t play it. The crazy thing is I’m a "defense wins championships" type of guy but defense is effort not athletic prowess. Thabo isn’t athletic enough to dunk the ball sometimes… LOL… You guys are amazing…
If he would have actually gave valuable reasons why he wouldn’t take Randle or Jabari then I wouldn’t negged him. Well written, poorly executed…
0 - Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 4:35pm #865437
tuck243ParticipantHe stated Jabari "…be a 6.5 rpg guy at best" At best? That’s why I asked does he watch NBA small forwards, (or the NBA at all), to not realize 6.5 rebounds a game is actually pretty damn good. Hell Paul George doesn’t average that many rebounds per game.
Why would you even take a player like Noah who plays like Derrick Favors over Randle? Derrick Favors not even GOOD!!! What am I missing here? I have watched enough of that kid to already know he’s going to be a typical journeyman, dude can’t even dominate offensively in college on the same team that Cody Zeller had decent success on. So many big men has come into the league with the same type of game as him and done ABSOLUTELY nothing. Jordan Hill is one. You can’t even tell me one success story for the past 7 years where a player that plays similar to Vonleh was able to be an All-Star. Not ONE.
Please stop with this defensive player crap. Name the All-Star players that got picked to start. Only 2 of them actually play defense and that’s LeBron & Paul George. Defense is a TEAM concept that a whole team has to focus on. Carlos Boozer is FAR from a defensive guy, but he’s on one of the top defensive teams. I’m amazed that you guys would even talk down about Randle’s and Jabari’s lack of defense when some of the top players don’t play it. The crazy thing is I’m a "defense wins championships" type of guy but defense is effort not athletic prowess. Thabo isn’t athletic enough to dunk the ball sometimes… LOL… You guys are amazing…
If he would have actually gave valuable reasons why he wouldn’t take Randle or Jabari then I wouldn’t negged him. Well written, poorly executed…
0- Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 4:51pm #865546
Land of GrantParticipantWasn’t trying to imply that Jabari wouldn’t be a good rebounder among small forwards, only that it wasn’t some amazing strength of his. Also, the All-Star game is a big, fun charade and its selections are not an accurate reflector of value to a team, I realize that not a lot of the guys play defense, but that doesn’t mean that defense isn’t important, just that voters tend toward offensive guys. Also, the guys who I said were great defenders don’t just have athletic prowess, they also have great effort. If Thabo had Wiggins athleticism he’d be a better defender than Jesus, even KD wouldn’t be able to score on him.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 4:51pm #865440
Land of GrantParticipantWasn’t trying to imply that Jabari wouldn’t be a good rebounder among small forwards, only that it wasn’t some amazing strength of his. Also, the All-Star game is a big, fun charade and its selections are not an accurate reflector of value to a team, I realize that not a lot of the guys play defense, but that doesn’t mean that defense isn’t important, just that voters tend toward offensive guys. Also, the guys who I said were great defenders don’t just have athletic prowess, they also have great effort. If Thabo had Wiggins athleticism he’d be a better defender than Jesus, even KD wouldn’t be able to score on him.
0- Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 5:08pm #865554
tuck243Participanta player who put up 31 points a game wouldn’t be able to score on Wiggins if he had Thabo’s effort? Is this what you telling me? First thing, I need you to watch Wiggins closely per possesion. Tell me if he’s really this lock down defender you think he is. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t he getting killed offensively by OSU? So bad that he got benched?
Next, that’s exactly what you were saying about Jabari.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 01/26/2014 - 5:08pm #865448
tuck243Participanta player who put up 31 points a game wouldn’t be able to score on Wiggins if he had Thabo’s effort? Is this what you telling me? First thing, I need you to watch Wiggins closely per possesion. Tell me if he’s really this lock down defender you think he is. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t he getting killed offensively by OSU? So bad that he got benched?
Next, that’s exactly what you were saying about Jabari.
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