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iguapops420 14 years, 11 months ago.
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- Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 11:39am #32618
McDunkinAn interesting exchange of tweets went down last Friday (yes, minus points for untimeliness, but on another job BallinEurope thought deep into the matter all weekend) between HoopsHype/ESPN Deportes writer Jorge Sierra and Team Australia/Milwaukee Bucks big man Andrew Bogut.
Things started innocuously enough, with Sierra plugging a Spanish-language piece he’d written for Deportes: “An article I penned about Pau Gasol’s Spain potentially being the best non-American team ever,” the HoopsHype tweet read.
To which Bogut shot back with, “@hoopshype Yugoslavia of the late 80s might disagree.”
Retorted the ‘Hype: “@AndrewMBogut Gasol has a better record with Spain (2003-2011) than Petrovic with Yugoslavia (1984-1990).”
And finally the exchange ended with Bogut’s terse tweeting of “@hoopshype didn’t say Petro. Said teams. Petro, Divac, Kukoc, Radja etc. I know who i’d take…”
It’s an interesting debate, particularly for those who remember actually seeing Drazen and the guys play in international competition. (Bogut was four years old in 1988 – November 1988 – and there’s no telling on Sierra. BiE was … well, let’s just say “old enough to have seen Team Yugoslavia.”) In fact, BallinEurope took on a similar subject a while back and decided that the post-communist Team Yugoslavia of 2001-02 captained by aging Vlade Divac was superior to any Spanish side since the decade turned – but that’s just one opinion…
Stating his own take on the matter in an article entitled “¿El Euro Dream Team?”, Sierra admittedly tempers his potential crowning of Team Spain as all-time greats with a qualifier that the Rojos will only bear this title should they bag gold in the 2011 FIBA World Championship and 2012 Olympics – quite a qualifer, indeed.
Much high praise in Sierra’s article goes to Pau Gasol and one double-take inducer is the subsequent comparison with Petrovic. Writes Sierra (translation BiE’s), “Spain has never produced so many quality players as in the last decade, but it was Lakers’ power forward that puts this team in contention for the best [European team of all-time]. Since 2003, Spain has played in the finals in five of the six tournaments he has participated. Gasol has won two gold medals (at the 2006 FIBA Worlds and 2009 Eurobasket) and three silvers (Eurobasket 2003 and 2007 and the 2008 Olympics).”
Sierra goes on to point out that Team Spain’s record in international tournaments is just 9-7 since 2003 without Gasol and 39-8 (.829) with him. Petrovic went 46-11 (.807) with Team Yugoslavia between 1984 and 1990 – Sierra himself might have been surprised at these numbers, because BiE sure was – but that .022 difference means about 9/10 of a single game in a 40-game schedule … can we call this even?
Additionally, Bogut may win this round based on his team argument: One key feature of Team Yugoslavia since 1984 and Petrovic’s recognition as a world-class star was the side’s nearly continuous improvement in tournament play:
1984 Olympics: finished 3rd
1985 EuroBasket: finished 7th
1986 World Championship: finished 3rd
1987 EuroBasket: finished 3rd
1988 Olympics: finished 2nd
1989 EuroBasket: finished 1st
1990 World Championship: finished 1st
1991 EuroBasket: finished 1stThree straight annual titles is impressive enough, but it should be noted that the 1991 victory was accomplished without Petrovic; not only has Spain never achieved a threepeat, one can’t imagine this Spanish side taking any title without Pau – possibly until Marc takes over the duty in a few years.
Sierra notes that Spain’s mark is even more noteworthy due to the fact that Team Yugoslavia never faced an NBA “dream team” in international competition, while Gasol’s Teams Spain have taken three of their eight losses against Team USA, including two to the 2008 “Redeem Team.” Except that this is a petard upon which to be self-hoisted: American fans would certainly see the potential in marking that 2006 world champions with an important asterisk, i.e. *never faced the USA in tournament.
Spain is currently carrying eight players with an NBA pedigree besides Pau Gasol, according to Sierra: Marc Gasol (Memphis Grizzlies), Jose Calderon (Toronto Raptors), Rudy Fernandez (Dallas Mavericks), Serge Ibaka (Oklahoma City Thunder), Ricky Rubio (Minnesota Timberwolves), Juan Carlos Navarro (formerly of the Memphis Grizzlies), Sergio Llull (drafted by the Houston Rockets) and Victor Claver (drafted by the Portland Trailblazers).
But while the Yugoslavian players were playing their trade in a different era, the relative paucity of team members with NBA experience should show instead just how outstanding guys like Vlade Divac, Toni Kukoc, Dino Radja and the immortal Petrovic were. NBA CV aside, doesn’t a first eight of Divac, Petrovic, Kukoc, Radja, Žarko Paspalj, Predrag Danilović, Stojan Vranković, and Jure Zdovc sound pretty fearsome in an all-time tournament?
If Sierra sees a potential weakness of the 2011 Team Spain as dealing defensively with playmakers like Danilo Gallinari, Hedo Turkoglu and Luol Deng, what in Naismith’s name would they have done against the multifaceted Petrovic and Kukoc?
Perhaps it’s a few years – two, including two more international tournament wins – before this debate can be more clearly settled, but FEB president José Luis Sáez is probably dead on when he states that “El rival de España en el Eurobasket es España.” For now, they’re favorites; in the all-time argument game, well, BiE’s still leaning toward Yugoslavia.
http://www.ballineurope.com/national-teams/spain-yugoslavia-greatest-all-time-9259/
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 12:15pm #589832
mikeyvthedonParticipantI think that team wise, Yugoslavia takes it. They were the best players from Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia and Montenegro. Incredible team, and I think that a team comprised around Drazen Petrovic, Toni Kukoc, Vlade Divac and Dino Radja could definitely have given Spain a hell of a time. Now, Spain might give them a nice contest, but do you think a Spain beats a team comprised of the best players from these 4 countries now? They might, but it would be a lot tougher than beating them currently.
Throw in the USSR teams anchored by Sabonis. They had Lithuania and Russia, not to mention decent basketball selection from Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine. Now, let Pau Gasol and co. play against that team on a regular basis, even today, and see how well they would do. Let Pau Gasol play against Croatia and Lithuania circa 1992 with all of the talent on either of those teams. Yes, they lost to the Dream Team, but I wonder what the score might have been had Spain played those guys. Pau and the boys have yet to win an Olympic Gold Medal, and they did not medal in 2004 after losing to the USA early in the play-offs. Spain is a great team, but I will go with Bogut on this one, Yugoslavia looks like the much better team in my eyes.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 12:15pm #589402
mikeyvthedonParticipantI think that team wise, Yugoslavia takes it. They were the best players from Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia and Montenegro. Incredible team, and I think that a team comprised around Drazen Petrovic, Toni Kukoc, Vlade Divac and Dino Radja could definitely have given Spain a hell of a time. Now, Spain might give them a nice contest, but do you think a Spain beats a team comprised of the best players from these 4 countries now? They might, but it would be a lot tougher than beating them currently.
Throw in the USSR teams anchored by Sabonis. They had Lithuania and Russia, not to mention decent basketball selection from Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine. Now, let Pau Gasol and co. play against that team on a regular basis, even today, and see how well they would do. Let Pau Gasol play against Croatia and Lithuania circa 1992 with all of the talent on either of those teams. Yes, they lost to the Dream Team, but I wonder what the score might have been had Spain played those guys. Pau and the boys have yet to win an Olympic Gold Medal, and they did not medal in 2004 after losing to the USA early in the play-offs. Spain is a great team, but I will go with Bogut on this one, Yugoslavia looks like the much better team in my eyes.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 12:15pm #589821
mikeyvthedonParticipantI think that team wise, Yugoslavia takes it. They were the best players from Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia and Montenegro. Incredible team, and I think that a team comprised around Drazen Petrovic, Toni Kukoc, Vlade Divac and Dino Radja could definitely have given Spain a hell of a time. Now, Spain might give them a nice contest, but do you think a Spain beats a team comprised of the best players from these 4 countries now? They might, but it would be a lot tougher than beating them currently.
Throw in the USSR teams anchored by Sabonis. They had Lithuania and Russia, not to mention decent basketball selection from Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine. Now, let Pau Gasol and co. play against that team on a regular basis, even today, and see how well they would do. Let Pau Gasol play against Croatia and Lithuania circa 1992 with all of the talent on either of those teams. Yes, they lost to the Dream Team, but I wonder what the score might have been had Spain played those guys. Pau and the boys have yet to win an Olympic Gold Medal, and they did not medal in 2004 after losing to the USA early in the play-offs. Spain is a great team, but I will go with Bogut on this one, Yugoslavia looks like the much better team in my eyes.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 3:19pm #589955
French FlairParticipantYugaslavian players like Petrovic, Divac & Kukoc came in NBA when no other European players had a big impact in this league… if they were not these players who break through, Gasol, Nowitzki, Parker, Ginobili would not have the same career now !
And I think, if the war did not split this country, they would have win other titles with Stojakovic, Bodiroga, Nesterovic & others !
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 3:19pm #589968
French FlairParticipantYugaslavian players like Petrovic, Divac & Kukoc came in NBA when no other European players had a big impact in this league… if they were not these players who break through, Gasol, Nowitzki, Parker, Ginobili would not have the same career now !
And I think, if the war did not split this country, they would have win other titles with Stojakovic, Bodiroga, Nesterovic & others !
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 3:19pm #589535
French FlairParticipantYugaslavian players like Petrovic, Divac & Kukoc came in NBA when no other European players had a big impact in this league… if they were not these players who break through, Gasol, Nowitzki, Parker, Ginobili would not have the same career now !
And I think, if the war did not split this country, they would have win other titles with Stojakovic, Bodiroga, Nesterovic & others !
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 5:40pm #589632
basedSERBParticipantYugoslavia!!! if you disagree then you are a communist
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 5:40pm #590054
basedSERBParticipantYugoslavia!!! if you disagree then you are a communist
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 5:40pm #590067
basedSERBParticipantYugoslavia!!! if you disagree then you are a communist
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 6:28pm #590095
ForTheWinParticipantWTF is this article talking about-”post communist yugoslavia”, when was Yugoslavia communist? Anyway Yugoslavia was wayyyyyyyyyy better and anyone who thinks otherwise has serious basketball knowledge problems. I mean with beat the U.S. 9 years ago, and if Serbia’s coach wasn’t sight impaired(not literally,im getting at him for making bad roster moves) then we might have a chance at getting back t our greatness.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 6:28pm #590109
ForTheWinParticipantWTF is this article talking about-”post communist yugoslavia”, when was Yugoslavia communist? Anyway Yugoslavia was wayyyyyyyyyy better and anyone who thinks otherwise has serious basketball knowledge problems. I mean with beat the U.S. 9 years ago, and if Serbia’s coach wasn’t sight impaired(not literally,im getting at him for making bad roster moves) then we might have a chance at getting back t our greatness.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 6:28pm #589674
ForTheWinParticipantWTF is this article talking about-”post communist yugoslavia”, when was Yugoslavia communist? Anyway Yugoslavia was wayyyyyyyyyy better and anyone who thinks otherwise has serious basketball knowledge problems. I mean with beat the U.S. 9 years ago, and if Serbia’s coach wasn’t sight impaired(not literally,im getting at him for making bad roster moves) then we might have a chance at getting back t our greatness.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 9:09pm #590132
Anton123ParticipantUSSR! When Sabonis was there was the greatest team of all time lol.
I mean sure no players made a real big impact in the NBA, but that was because our communist government didn’t ever allow anyone out.
The team had countless eurobasket golds, beat USA for the olimpics gold medal once and dominated the world championships.
I guess it’s just that I want to for once be at least a bit proud of what my country has achieved lol.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 9:09pm #590147
Anton123ParticipantUSSR! When Sabonis was there was the greatest team of all time lol.
I mean sure no players made a real big impact in the NBA, but that was because our communist government didn’t ever allow anyone out.
The team had countless eurobasket golds, beat USA for the olimpics gold medal once and dominated the world championships.
I guess it’s just that I want to for once be at least a bit proud of what my country has achieved lol.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 08/15/2011 - 9:09pm #589710
Anton123ParticipantUSSR! When Sabonis was there was the greatest team of all time lol.
I mean sure no players made a real big impact in the NBA, but that was because our communist government didn’t ever allow anyone out.
The team had countless eurobasket golds, beat USA for the olimpics gold medal once and dominated the world championships.
I guess it’s just that I want to for once be at least a bit proud of what my country has achieved lol.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 4:10am #590207
franfranParticipantSpain!
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 4:10am #590221
franfranParticipantSpain!
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 4:10am #589784
franfranParticipantSpain!
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 4:50am #590213
seniokasParticipantI woul actually say that even Lithuanian team ’92 is as strong as Spain right now. They had two super players in Sabonis and Marciulonis and great talent around them like Kurtinaitis, Chomicius and Karnisovas. Although I have to agree that Spain has much more depth then Lithuania had but the fact is that Lithuania had around 3,5 million of citizens while Spain has like 46 millions.
All in all , I would say that USSR ’88 is the best non-American team of all time, nevertheless Jugoslavia in 80’s and 90′ and in the first part of 00′ had hella good team
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 4:50am #590228
seniokasParticipantI woul actually say that even Lithuanian team ’92 is as strong as Spain right now. They had two super players in Sabonis and Marciulonis and great talent around them like Kurtinaitis, Chomicius and Karnisovas. Although I have to agree that Spain has much more depth then Lithuania had but the fact is that Lithuania had around 3,5 million of citizens while Spain has like 46 millions.
All in all , I would say that USSR ’88 is the best non-American team of all time, nevertheless Jugoslavia in 80’s and 90′ and in the first part of 00′ had hella good team
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 4:50am #589790
seniokasParticipantI woul actually say that even Lithuanian team ’92 is as strong as Spain right now. They had two super players in Sabonis and Marciulonis and great talent around them like Kurtinaitis, Chomicius and Karnisovas. Although I have to agree that Spain has much more depth then Lithuania had but the fact is that Lithuania had around 3,5 million of citizens while Spain has like 46 millions.
All in all , I would say that USSR ’88 is the best non-American team of all time, nevertheless Jugoslavia in 80’s and 90′ and in the first part of 00′ had hella good team
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 5:26am #590238
rileymcshea3ParticipantI seriously didnt even read that just because it said "Greatest of all time yugoslavia or spain" and were probably talking about which is the best country team in the world but I dont think you can even make an arguement because USA doesnt send its best players every year and if we did we would destroy every team
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 5:26am #590254
rileymcshea3ParticipantI seriously didnt even read that just because it said "Greatest of all time yugoslavia or spain" and were probably talking about which is the best country team in the world but I dont think you can even make an arguement because USA doesnt send its best players every year and if we did we would destroy every team
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 5:26am #589817
rileymcshea3ParticipantI seriously didnt even read that just because it said "Greatest of all time yugoslavia or spain" and were probably talking about which is the best country team in the world but I dont think you can even make an arguement because USA doesnt send its best players every year and if we did we would destroy every team
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 12:06pm #590409
iguapops420ParticipantYugo anyday of the week. They were Europes Showtime. Once Brothers all day long.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 12:06pm #590426
iguapops420ParticipantYugo anyday of the week. They were Europes Showtime. Once Brothers all day long.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 08/16/2011 - 12:06pm #589987
iguapops420ParticipantYugo anyday of the week. They were Europes Showtime. Once Brothers all day long.
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