This topic contains 16 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by 
- AuthorPosts
- Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 9:44am #28227
Memphis MadnessParticipantDerrick Rose and the Chicago Bulls have been in a heated battle with the Indiana Pacers in the first round. The Bulls are ahead 3-0, but the Pacers have, at many times, looked like the better all-around team. The Pacers led much of the way in the first game. Darren Collison’s injury hurt the Pacers in game 2.
This year’s Bulls team is predicated on the all-around brilliance of Rose, a stingy defense, and a solid supporting cast. Lebron’s Cavs team was predicated on his all-around brilliance, a solid supporting cast, and a good defense. But, the Cavs never had a legit second option. His Cav’s teammates did well in the regular season but were exposed as role players in the playoffs.
For whatever reason, Lebron never got enough help to put him over the top.
I am not sure the Bulls have the legit second option to help Derrick Rose win a championship. Noah looks to be an upgrade over Andy Verajao. Luol Deng looks like the second option but he really needs to have some great series. Boozer is solid at 4, but he turns the ball over too much and doesn’t play great defense. Kyle Korver hit some BIG shots, which is very important for Chicago. In the old days, the Bulls had Paxon and Kerr in this role. The Lakers used to have Horry and Fisher. On the downside, Rose looks like the only guy on that team tha can manufacture his own shot. Plus, he doesn’t really have a good scorer at the 2 guard spot. I am not sure that the Bulls’ Big Three of Rose, Deng, and Boozer will be enough against the Heat’s Lebron, Wade, Bosh. The Big Four on the Celtics of KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo could still beat the Bulls as could the Lakers Big Four of Kobe, Pau, Odom, and Bynum. Not sure if the Bulls can rectify that.
If the Bulls plan on waiting until those relatively older teams begin to fall off, they still have to contend with the OKC Thunder’s young nucleus of Durant and Westbrook. Durant has that GREAT sidekick that Rose lacks. Deng is not on that level. As far as the rest of the teams go, Boozer is better on offense than Ibaka but Ibaka is the better shot-blocker and defender. Noah and Perkins are both solid defensive centers, but Perkins has more size. The way I see it OKC’s Big 3 of Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka offers more athleticism of Chicago’s Big 3 of Rose, Deng, and Boozer. The Thunder have the better second option too. Noah and Perkins are both effective. Perkins is more physical. The Thunder’s defensive duo of Perkins and Ibaka is bigger, longer, and more intimidating than Noah and Boozer. At the 2 guard, Sefolosha and Bogans are comparable with the slight edge going to Bogans. Harden is better than anything that the Bulls have coming off the bench. Korver is not as good a scorer but a better 3 point threat. The Thunder have Nick Collison and Nazr Mohammed as reserve big men. The Bulls have Taj Gibson, Kurt Thomas, and Omer Asik. I give the slight advantage to the Bulls there.
If Rose and the Bulls want to win some championships they will have some stiff competition. They probably need a better second option, and some more scoring punch off the bench.
The Thunder seem to have the better second option plus a more intimidating front line. Harden is a solid 3rd or 4th option on offense, comparing favorably to Deng/Korver. Both teams need a veteran back-up point guard. The Thunder has some solid bigs off the bench as do the Bulls. If the Thunder get a solid, all-around forward off the bench who can score 10-12 points and get 5-6 rebound a game, then they will be closer than the Bulls to contend for a NBA championship. Ironically, the Thunder could really use Jeff Green off the bench right now. Jamie Skeen would be an ideal player for the Thunder. He can score and rebound some plus he can hit the 3. If I were them I don’t think they need a young back-up point guard/combo guard. I think Harden is the perimeter scorer and Cook is a good shooter. Plus, Maynor is solid. A veteran backup point guard with experience and savvy is probably what the Thunder are lacking the most off the bench. Skeen would be good. JaJuan Johnson might be a good way to go. Kyle Singler is a big 3 who can hit from the outside. Chandler Parsons might be pretty good.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 10:09am #524189
B FreeParticipantI think the combo of Deng, Noah, Brewer and Boozer is much better then what LBJ had.
0- Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:02am #524206
Memphis MadnessParticipantrobertfreeman,
I think it is too. But I am not sure that Deng is that ELITE second option that Rose needs.
I am not sure that Rose/Boozer/Deng/Noah/Korver/Bogans/Gibson/Brewer is as good as Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Bibby/Haslem/Dampier/Miller, KG/Allen/Pierce/Rondo/Big Baby/Kristic/Jeff Green, or Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum/Artest/Fisher.
The Thunder’s core of Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka/Harden/Perkins/Sefolosha is slightly better than the Bulls too.
With tighter playoff rotations an ELITE second option is very important. You also need another a good/very good third option with some depth off the bench for scoring/defense/rebounds, but the end of the bench doesn’t matter as much. Most playoff teams shorten their bench to an 8/9 man rotation. Even here, the Lakers have an all-time great 6th man in Lamar Odom, the Thunder has Harden, and the Celtics have Big Baby. Like the Heat, the Bulls have no TRUE sixth man but I do like Gibson, Korver, Thomas, Brewer, Watson,and Asik off the bench. While they have lack an ELITE sixth man they do have a very solid deep bench similar to the Heat which has Chalmers, Mike Miller, James Jones, Big Z, Magloire, House, and Joel Anthony. Like the Bulls, the Heat have a pretty good back up point guard, a solid sniper (Mike Miller vs. Kyle Korver), and some decent big men, but they are not a high scoring group with a singular go-to-guy. If the jump shots aren’t falling (the forte of Korver, Thomas, Miller, James Jones, Big Z, and House) then both benches struggle for offense. But both benches are solid on D and on the boards.
The Bulls’ bench though is not really elite. They lack a Lamar Odom, or really even a Big Baby (or JEff Green), Harden, or George Hill (Spurs). The Bulls do have a dead-eye shooter off the bench in Korver, the Heat have Miller, House, and Chalmers who can heat up, the Spurs have the aforementioned Hill and also Gary Neal and Matt Bonner. The Celtics have a weak bench all-around but at 6/7 they have Big Baby and Jeff Green, slightly more dynamic than Kyle Korver and Taj Gibson.
So the Bulls have a very solid bench, but it is not the best. Nor do they have a top tier sixth man. When most playoff teams go to an 8 1/2 man rotation, the Bulls have a solid 2/3 wing player and a solid 4 as the first two guys off the bench (Korver, Gibson). Unfortunately the 2 other best players off the bench (Brewer, Thomas) also play the 2/3 and the 4. That means that there solid bench has 4 guys to fill 3 spots (2 guard, small forward, power forward) or they go small with Kurt Thomas at center. CJ Watson is the only point guard off the bench and the only guy who can come in for Derrick Rose. So they have 5 guys off the bench that they need to find minutes for. Asik is a ok, but he is their only back up center so that makes 6 guys off the bench if they don’t wanna go small if Noah is out of the game. They have an interesting bench. Good depth, but only one top tier shooter, no real creator on offense, and no legit, explosive big man. I like Gibson and Thomas but they don’t create their own shots and they lack the length of someone like Odom or Blair.
The Bulls’ bench is merely average for a true contender.
0
- Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 10:20am #524195
Jlv2011the two. Rose gets it done, Lebron does not.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 10:22am #524197
TyroberParticipantIt this comparing the Bulls to the Thunder or to the old Cavs teams?
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:00am #524204
sheltwon3ParticipantBulls have more weapons then Cav teams. Korver is a dead eye shooter. Boozer is threat even if he is not producing. Deng is better than Hughes who was Lebron’s sidekick. Noah is better than Varejo right now so I am sure he was light years ahead of the younger inexperienced Varejo.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:08am #524208
Jlv2011this helps the Bulls.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:09am #524209
OhCanada-ParticipantIts a good comparison the difference is the roles are much more defined on this Bulls team. Cleveland had Mo Williams playing the floor general role when he is realisticly a jacker and streaky scorer. They tried to make Jamison a second option next too Lebron and a good defensive presence although he was in Washingtons system so long as a valued scorer and leader along with his rebounding being appreciated. The list goes son…
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:30am #524218
TallmanNYCParticipantWell we had a whole season of the Bulls and Rose didn’t play every minute. He played about 3/4 of the minutes overall, which still leaves 1/4 of a season worth of minutes of the Bulls playing without him.
When Rose was on the court, the Bulls outscored their opponent at the rate of 7.9 points per 100 possessions. A very nice number. When he was off the court, the Bulls still outscored their opponent at the rate of 5.2 per 100. Needless to say a 2.7 difference isn’t very special compared to a lot of players.
By way of comparison, Nash off the court, then Suns are minus 11.5 points per 100 possessions against their opponnent. That is bad. That is just getting killed. But Nash on the court and the Suns go up to plus 5.5. That is a 17 point swing and the largest plus minus difference in the league this year.
This supports what a lot of people have been saying, the Bulls are at least a decent team even when Rose isn’t on the court.
http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG7.HTM
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:40am #524223
GrandmamaParticipantRose has a lot better supporting cast than Lebron had in Cleveland. Don’t like the comparison.
0- Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 12:14pm #524239
Memphis MadnessParticipantLast year they had Jamison, Mo Williams, JJ Hickson, Shaq, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Delonte West, and Andy Verajao. He had a decent amount of help. But, not true second option. Not sure if Rose has one either. Both teams were great regular season teams though.
0
- Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:59am #524232
TallmanNYCParticipantFor further comparison, I went back and looked at the 200/2010 plus/minus results for the Cavs. Lebron on the court, Cavs are plus 10.5. But Lebron off the court, the Cavs were minus 5.5. I think that makes sense and is consistent with what we knew then and know even better now, the Cavs were a bad team without Lebron.
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CLE.HTM
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 12:00pm #524234
DanEboyParticipantTallmanNYC,
What about Durant’s +4.3 on +2.1 off
Or Westbrook’s +1.9 on +8.3 off
This is another skewed stupid stat. OKC is better off with Westbrook on the bench and wouldn’t be that worse off with Durant on the bench according to this stat.
It doesn’t take into account rotations. Who is still in and who is out when Rose isn’t in the game. Or what the score of the game is.
It’s whack.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 12:15pm #524240
B FreeParticipant@MM Personally I have had a theory based on the old Bulls team and the championship Spurs teams.
(Sometimes players fill more then one role)
You need a good to guy, the star, someone can carry the team through tough games, who in the clutch is going to come up with a crucial basket.You need a distributor/ facilitator, some one who can make his teammates better. You need a lock down peremiter defender, someone to go toe to toe with the other teams best gaurd and give him trouble. You need an offensive post threat, someone one if not given enough respect by the opposing team can fill it up from inside the paint.You need a defensive bigman who can alter shots and body up in the paint. You need the sTrOKEN white guy who can be a deep threat and hit the open shot on the drive and dish.
Chicago has all that this season. While having 2 or 3 elite players is becoming the norm I think with the right players around him Rose can win a championship.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 1:23pm #524257
Memphis MadnessParticipantThe Bulls have a solid, overall second unit. Maybe they should platoon some. Start the entire second unit for 5 or 6 minutes in each half. Without blowing up the team, I think the best thing they can do is get a shooting guard (maybe a combo guard off the bench) who can give them 12 or 13 points per game and who could score 20 on any given night.
That would give them a 20 point scorer, two guys who can score 16-18, a solid scorer at the 2 (and a great fourth option, and Noah scoring 10 to 12 points, along with whatever Korver gives them. Bogans is fine as a starter, but I think they need more offense from that spot coming off the bench. Another good scoring guard will take some of the pressure off of Deng and Boozer. If one of those guys is not shooting well, a better shooting guard can take over some of the scoring load.
In the draft, this board has them taking Kyle Singler. He might be a good pick. Bring him off the bench at the 3 and Korver off the bench at the 2 then you have two good shooters who can spread the floor. Not too good on defense though. Jamie Skeen would be interesting. He could play the small forward spot and hit threes. Also a good rebounder. Would join Korver as the 3 point threats off the bench. Both guys could give them 8-10 points a night. As could Taj Gibson. That would be a good 8 man rotation. Then bring in either Kurt Thomas or Ronnie Brewer for defense, or CJ Watson at point guard if Rose needs a rest.
They would have a big bench with CJ Watson and Korver/Brewer in the backcourt, and Skeen, Gibson/Thomas, and Asik up front.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 1:58pm #524265
NashyMingParticipantThe Bulls built a solid core around Rose and the players complement each other.
Rose is a ball-dominant PG that can score, pass, etc.
Bogan and Brewer are added as swing man stoppers
Korver is there to be 3-pt shooters
Deng is solid in his own right.
Boozer is a good offense post player.
Noah is a good defensive post player. Taj Gibson is a good defender, rebounder, energy guy off the bench.
Kurt Thomas is a good veteran that had a lot of success over his career playing for good teams.
With the defensive system from Thibodeau, the team has been playing top notch defense.
Compare to LBJ’s team, it was not assembled properly. The GM listened to LBJ’s input way too much. LBJ got too much control over the team.
On the other hand, Rose stood back and let his GM does his works. He’s a good student under his coach which became a good example to the rest of the teammates. That’s why even a rookie coach like Thibodeau could have enough respects from all his players.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 04/22/2011 - 4:11pm #524287
quincey3ParticipantWait Wait Wait Wait@Jlv2011
Rose gets it done and Lebron don’t? Has Rose ever gotten out of the first round? have the Bulls looked unbeatable? I’m hoping you mean Rose will get it done because int hat case i can’t say much because that just you’re opinion, but if you mean Rose has got it done and Lebron hasn’t then you’re way wrong
Skip bayless said the same thing this morning and i damn near spit out my O.J. Lebron had a worst supporting case and has gotten to the title game, Rose hasn’t even come close yet
0 - AuthorPosts
| You must be logged in to reply to this topic. | Login |