This topic contains 15 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by rickybobby 12 years ago.
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- Posted on: Tue, 03/27/2012 - 10:44pm #37770
rickybobbyParticipantAs a die hard UNC fan that watches basically every game i know carolinas half court offense or lack of one doesnt fit Barnes skill sets partically well. This group of tarheels dont get up in down the court like teams of old. Mainly because the are not consistant enough on the defensive end. UNC score alot of their fast break points off the secondary break with dump downs to bigs or trailers for threes, or run heads layups where our bigs outrun the other team bigs. If Barnes dont score of the secondary break with open shots or from trailing for the three it very tough for him to get looks in the half court. Here’s a break down of UNC half court sets.
1st option: Marshall dribbles at the top of the key, trying to find passing lanes to feed Zeller and Henson for an layup, or post feed leading to a foul or putback.2nd option: Marshall Pass ball to the wings who also try to feed the bigs for the same results after a couple of ball reversal if it isnt there the go to the next option.3rd option: Marshall and wings dribble handle off, big comes sets a pick up high around the top of the key, ball handler dives and gets nowhere because of usaully bad spacing or lacks of moves, they then turns and passes to the big who turns and faces and passes to the opposites wing, big then cuts, if Zeller or McAdoo they post and gets a dump down pass, if Henson he cuts and gets a dump down, a mid range jumper, or he recieves a pin down screen for an alley oop pass.4th option: Marshall drives to the basketball draws a couple of defenders dishes to Bigs for an east layup or cross court pass to Bullock,Barnes or Hairston for an open three. Or when not thinking of others a layup for himselfFinal option: If everything fails bring Barnes off a screen usually with shot clock winding down, for an hopefully open three or midrange jumper, if its not there he recieves the ball behind three point line and is forced to create for himself (this is where he eithers looks terrible and struggles to drive or looks great with his one or two dribble pullup), or another screen is set and he forced to shoot over the his defender or the help defender, Or pump fake them into a foul.I think because of this system Barnes is very incosistant. When Carolina is at their best Barnes touches the ball every 3rd possesion or so in great scoring postion where he’s comfortable and thats when he’s at his best. When our offense is struggling and our bigs are not producing we tend to force the ball to him at the wrong spots on the floor like an iso for him behind the three point line to create something which isnt his game.To me there are two main reasons Barnes isn’t the player we all thought he would be. 1st is his lack of ball handling ability to create his own offense. 2nd UNC system under Roy Williams is built for Bigs in the half court and speed merchant guards in the open court. And Barnes is neither.With all that being said i dont think we’ll see the real "Harrison Barnes" until he improves his handles, and is in a offensive system built for his game. Maybe thats next year in the NBA or at UNC with a tweaked Roy Williams system. All in all in order for him to reach his full potential he has to do his part and work extensively on his handles and creating ability to be more effective in any type of system or game plan at any level.0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 1:50am #652205
chocboywndrParticipantI have said many times from watching them this year that Barnes is treated like a role player not a feature of the offence. He is to blame for not working on his ballhandling more, but coach Williams has to take blame too. This is a weakness he came to Carolina with in 2 years the coaching staff has not improved that part of his game at all. I also think they did not run enough plays for him cutting moving to the basket or in the post. The offence was never very crisp or precise the team was just more talented than most teams and so it didnt matter. The offence needs to be tweaked no matter if Barnes stays or goes and needs to be run at a much higher level.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 2:17am #652207
mrhancocParticipantI can’t believe that I am about to say this but "Barnes has not played up to his expected level this year and it’s not because of the offensive system!"
I totally see what you guys are saying about how the offense is ran (Marshall dribbles up court, looks for bigs, rotate the ball to wings, then they look in side…then "Barnes may get a shot as the clock runs down), most of that is true! but you also have to understand that Zeller and Henson were on this team, and the post for many of years have been UNC’s main strength as a team, regardless of what other players they have had……..Barnes has his opportunities to make plays, it’s just that he did not
But the simple truth is "Barnes had his troubles this year" and for #1 Barnes has not been able to dribble past anyone (look how many charges are on him, just not fast enough and it’s like he’s about to fall flat on his face) CP3 camp didn’t help!, #2 it looks like his footing is always off, like he can’t get his feet under himself to get a lift at times to make a play, #3 Barnes has not been a great shooter this year either (but I do like the post game he has added, if they would just give him the ball), #4 and his Dfence is off (he leaves the main shooter open all the time), all that amongst other issues
All in all, the system is fine and works for them all, it’s Barnes and some of the other guys are not finishing the plays (Zeller and Hinson finish plays!), UNC still don’t have a consistant shooter…..
*think about it, if you aren’t making consistant shots, can’t dribble past anyone, and your Dfence isn’t great…well?
maybe the system don’t work for Barnes and Im just seeing things wrong………..
0- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 9:19am #652364
chocboywndrParticipantI Am not at all saying the offence is bad.It’s great for the bigs if I was an inside player I would go to UNC for sure. The problems is their is very little movement off the ball on weakside. On ball swings their should be opportunities for backdoor layups and lobs. You hardly ever see that. You rarley screens for the wings popping out with options to drive or pull up and their are almost zero sets where a wing ends up in the post. On top of that when they run things it looks very sloppy, that is about coaching. It was either get it inside or take an outside shot. Carolinas offence has never been the most wing friendly from way back in the days of Dean Smith.
As far as the CP3 camp ball handling is a everyday relentless thing to get better at their is no camp for a week or 2 that will fix him. It needs to be daily with many hours spent it is no different than working on your shot or post moves . When you are thinking you often look clumsy and awkward. Once it becomes second nature is when it you will see his athletic ability shine through. The young man may not have a lightning first step but he is plenty quick enough once his handle gets better to get by defenders he is gonna have to learn tricks of the trade. He need to watch Paul Pierce who was never elite athelte but lived at the line and scored 20 points a game. I think he is more athletic than Pierce was its just matter of dedication ,they say his bball IQ is high so it is very possible.
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- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 8:49am #652351
rickybobbyParticipantI’m not trying to say Barnes isnt performing just because of the system im saying its limiting him by not letting him be the focus points or one of them atleast. Yea Barnes dont finish plays all the time but compare his looks to the bigs, the get easy layups and he get contested jumpshots. To average 17 points a game as your team third option offensevily is very impressive. Everyone knows UNC and Kansas offense under Roy Williams is built for Bigmen and point guards to thrive. And for those position to be the most talented. Barnes is neither a guard or a big, yet he’s the most talented and Williams failed to adjust his system to help fit Barnes needs.
Barnes is a very good athlete i think he put on to much weight to showcase it. In highschool Barnes was a great athlete who excelled in track in fields at high and broad jump. So the athletism is there he just needs to change his body. He became bigger and bulky instead of bigger and leaner.
He not a good side to side dribbler an an iso situation, but he handles the rock solid on north to south drives when given space to operate.
0- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 9:10am #652361
mrhancocParticipantIm hear what you are saying, but lets be real, if Barnes is not performing well how can he be the focus? How can he be the leader if he is not leading by example. IMO, the system is great for him, he just needs to utilize his skillz better, like finding a way to get open for high %shots and not just in the post, but also slashing to the basket for an easy lay in (rarely see that from him), go with his strengths like that "that 1 dribble shot he’s great with", Barnes plays the 3(he’s 6"8 vs 6"5) and really should be able to shoot over just about any other 3 in NCAA
Barnes has his opportunities like I posted earlier, he gets shots from the wing, he gets iso plays, he gets pick and roll plays (UNC is not really great with their picks lol), Barnes gets his shots! to do some great things
when it comes down to it, it up to Barnes to translate what he’s good at into his game (like Zeller and that hook shot and 12footer shot, Marshall and his passing skills/vison, Henson and his like 12 foot jumper and shot blocking skillz), but like every other great player Barnes also needs to hustle everywhere else on the floor also like battling for the loose balls, offensive rebounds and defence
how about this, put Barnes a Duke like system? Villanova? Georgetown? Syaracuse?…none of them would work for him better than UNC because he’s not playing up to "our" expected levels. No school is gonna change there system just to fit 1 guy, especially if they know it works
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- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 9:10am #652363
FastAndFuriousParticipantI think Barnes is good, but not what he was billed to be, I mean Rashad McCants wasn’t a speed merchant or a big and he averaged 20 for Roy Williams,with other NBA prospects on the team as well.
Barnes does everything good nothing great, and that’s why his stock is dropping, he isn’t living up to his billing.
I’m not saying he sucks or won’t be good in the NBA, I just think he was a little overhyped.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 10:28am #652404
rickybobbyParticipantIMO, the system is great for him, he just needs to utilize his skillz better, like finding a way to get open for high %shots and not just in the post, but also slashing to the basket for an easy lay in (rarely see that from him), go with his strengths like that "that 1 dribble shot he’s great with", Barnes plays the 3(he’s 6"8 vs 6"5) and really should be able to shoot over just about any other 3 in NCAA.
You making my point, he’s not put in a postion to utilize his skills better. The court is not spaced enough for him to slash to the basket, or post up with Zeller and Henson down low in the paint taking up everything. And instead of letting Barnes cut or move without the ball to score alot of times Roy has him setting ball screens to get the bigs a look, or an open three for Reggie and PJ. Also Marshall defender always help of him futher more cloggin the paint leave nowhere for Barnes to find an open spot execpt for the perimeter.
@ youngdave yea McCants, and also Pierce where both 20pts scores for Williams and Wayne Ellington too with his 15-17pts, but they also where better ball handlers and could create their own shot. But it took them 3yrs to really get to that point and thrive well in the system. Also those teams ran a way better half court system than this years team allowing for better shots for scorers. So hopefully Barnes stay for a 3rd year and reaps the benefits. And we all see the scorer he can be.
And as for as other teams changing their system to fit the current roster needs Duke did that this year. Duke usually plays tough D and defend well and play offense as a team where everyone feeds of each other. Not this year cause Coach K knew his players didnt play like that so he adjusted his game plan to fit their needs. He tailored his offensive gameplan around Rivers driving ability and Curry, Kelly, and Dawkins ability to shoot threes and thats it. And let the Plumme Brothers try to clean up the mess.
If Coach K can adapt and tweak his system so can Roy Williams. Also i agree he cant get handles in two weeks at CP3 camp he going have to put in serious work everyday to see major improvements. Also he’s become to robotic with his movements he needs to get leaner to become a more fluid athlete allowing him to create better of the dribble and move better without the ball.
0- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 10:43am #652412
mrhancocParticipant@woowoo, so what/who’s basketball system would you suggest would be best for Barnes? or how do you think Roy should tweak the system
I could possibly see Barnes playing more of a 4 instead of a 3 for some teams, leaving just 1 other post player, which could open the lanes for him even when he is away from the basket………almost sounds like he hould have been a player at one of those schools I mentioned (Duke, Villinova, or basically a 3gaurd team)…………..but possibly
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- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 10:52am #652416
rickybobbyParticipantI think Barnes in UNC system is a great option Barnes just has to do a better job of demanding the ball some and work on his handle. Also Roy Williams has to put him in situation to thrive. You cant expect a player to be great when not giving the oppurtunitie to do it on a consistant bases.
Barnes can play the 4 at 6’8 220-225 but i think Roy is relectutant to post him up period. As far as which school system other than UNC idk. Barnes just needs to be somewhere where he’s mainly operating on the elbow around the free throw line somewhat like Paul Pierce and Carmelo Anthony.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:03am #652424
HaleParticipantPretty sure Barnes has only be a wing player for a few years too. I think he played in the post for most of high school. He’s going to keep getting better.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:15am #652428
rickybobbyParticipantYea he was a post player for most of his highschool career. Thats where it gets comical because Barnes plays an inside out type of game, Carolina also plays an inside out type of game. But UNC uses Barnes as an outside guy who really doesnt do much inside.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:13pm #652452
chocboywndrParticipantI personally dont think he should come back though. I think that people will start to nit pick him apart the longer he stays now looking for problems in his game. I know he will lose money from dropping spots but without the limitations of the NCAA he could work on his game way more with NBA people who can really help him. I know he will have a sour taste in his mouth leaving this way, but their is no guarentee that Roy will change anything. The squad will not be as good which will maybe get him more points but then people will say its on substandard squad and his numbers are inflated(unless Henson comes back too). I really believe from what I have heard that he is a hard worker and if that is the case with his natural talents and good coaching he is capable of being a number one option in the mold of Paul Pierce.
I really don’t think the kid is robotic I think he real intellectual guy who can get caught up thinking sometimes more than playing. He was never not the focal point of an offence so I think he gets caught up trying to just fit in. Look at how well his old teammate Mcdermott plays as focal point of the offence and there is no doubt Barnes is better player. The system is just as important as the school. I love UNC they are my squad but they just don’t develop great wing player minus MJ, and even he was ten times the player after he left.
0 - Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 2:48pm #652548
BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipantNo. None of what happened is a bad system or bad fit. Barnes had a really bad month. The UNC offense wasn’t bad for him up until February 25th, it was great for him.
As a freshman, he had a seven game stretch where he stunk it up and shot 21-78 from the field and 5-25 from three. The rest of the year, he 45.1 percent shooting, 36.5 from three, and averaging 17 PPG. The final month of this season, he was 50-141 from the field and 10-46 from three. The one good statistical game was against FSU and he was getting layups in transition. Up until February 25, he 47.1 percent shooting, 42.9 from three, and averaging 18 PPG. It was the same offense when he was playing like the top pick as when he was awful. Barnes is a great talent, but when things go bad for them he bottoms out mentally. That is okay for a 19 year old. You can grow up and learn to roll with the punches, but it does have to happen. Big picture, he probably shouldn’t go to the NBA until he better handles shooting slumps. You cannot deny the talent. You cannot ignore the results when he has gone well. At the same time, when the shot isn’t falling and he starts pressing, it gets ugly.
0- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 4:41pm #652652
chocboywndrParticipantYour points are valid but I am not jumping on the system now. I have been critical of the system for sometime as it pertains to wing players. Its just that I just joined the site. Their is a reason that Zeller was player of the year his position is the featured one on the team. Barnes is a very good player hence why even as non a featured part of the offence he still scored which is why I have faith in him at the next level. The offence doesn’t have enough variety in attack in my opinion, and this year I thought the execution was one of the worst I have ever seen. They became reliant on Marshall finding guy with great court vision vs good offensive execution, and when he was gone the team functioned poorly. All year I said they needed to work in their back up point way more, they didnt and it came back to bite them. The back up point needs to rely on running the offence and the team couldnt do it when it counted. You are right though it was terrible time for shooting slump. I also agree that he 19 he has so much in front of him he is no Marvin Williams.
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- Posted on: Wed, 03/28/2012 - 5:32pm #652695
rickybobbyParticipantThe system aint bad it got us 2 ncaa championships, but it doesnt put Barnes in position so he could best display his talents at this point in his career. I know he shot well this season before the ankle injures he was shooting mid 50% from the field and 50% from three. After re-injuring it is when he wasn’t shooting the same and never regained his form.
I agree he shouldn’t rush to the NBA its still going to be there, and he has to improve his ball handling if he wants to really reach his full potential.
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