[Scottoant93Participant]

Alright I have a serious question for all raptors fans or anyone else who cares to answer. WHy do hate Bargs so much. He’s a top 5 scoring big man, I know his flaws rebounding,defense(name 3 raps that actually play defense), and sometimes it seems like a lack of desire, but I mean he has a reasonable contract,doesn’t complain or get into trouble, and unlike past raptors such as vince carter,T-mac, and Chris Bosh, he wants to stay in Toronto. Do you think when it comes time to resign or bounce, what do you think Demar Derozen or Ed Davis will Do?

[EuroBallParticipant]

He is soft. He defense sucks, he doesn`t rebound the ball. he only average  22+ because he took a lot of shots period. Don`t think the Raptors had many options this seeason.  

[natedogggParticipant]

if he was playing PF hed be great but until they get a defensive minded C who rebounds he is a weak link on that end of the floor.

[mj23mj23besteverParticipant]

if bargs could be slid to the 4 alongside a def minded c hed be great hes just not a 5

[OhCanada-Participant]

Thats bs. Sorry but it just is. The guys doesnt gaurd players, he doesnt rebound the ball, he dissappear in games, other times he casn be amazing, he can even be a physical presence once in a blue moon. Although it is too inconsistant. Try putting Rashard Lewis at C, you would likely get the same results, but Lewis was knocked for many things while playing PF as well. The fact that he thinks scoring, having a nice shot, post skills, faceup skills, is more important and complicated then rebounding, defending, and blocking shots is the smple reason why we dont like him. Hey maybe you get lucky, he ends up oon your team, and you can see why we "hate" him so much.

[Scottoant93Participant]

Honestly I think Bargs needs to go to a A.defensive minded team so that they force him to play defense, B. get a mentor C. Have a better coach who gets on him D. leave the raps. He still 25 so theres to still room to grow(doesn’t mean it will happen). Oh Canada, thats just an excuse of how maybe im lucky to have him on my team, dont be arrogant Your team is a mess imo the lone bright spot is Ed Davis, DD is pretty good but he as inconsistant as bargs, and a defensive liability(I seen guards fly right past him with no effort). My team is the nets(were bad too I know), bargs wouldn’t fit in, Im not defending bargs, It was just a question

[Bossy13Participant]

 Scottoant,

It’s a nice idea that if Bargs was in a different situation, that yu could still teach him some D but there’s just no way it can happen. Andrea’s problem is an incredibly slow reaction time. He simply can’t respond to what happens on the court in a timely fashion. That’s why his rebounding is so bad and why he gives up so many easy baskets. All the opposing team has to do is run a couple of screens, force him to switch and it’s a guarantee that he’ll be late on one of them. He’s just kind of slow minded.  No coach can change that. His low post D is fine cuz it’s just one on one and he holds his position well, doesnt bite on fakes and forces guys to shoot over his long arms… but thats the only positive beyond scoring that you’ll ever see out of him. Perfect 6th man on a good team.  

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Everyone knows it’s Primo, GRAINWISE! Primo, pasta and souse!

Well, not that we have that out of the way, here is why people in Toronto dislike Bargnani. On the whole actually, Toronto likes Bargnani, especially the Italian community, and most people, who are not basketball crazy, think he is a nice scorer and our best player, which, right now, he is. DeRozan is not there yet, and no one else is stepping up, so Bargnani had to take those shots and score those points more often than not to keep the Raps competitive.

Where people went crazy, is that they wanted to have this Dan Gilbert, "he dissed us and we are better off without him", attitude about Chris Bosh. "The players are so much happier in the locker room" and "he wasn’t a real franchise player", were two things I heard all of the time. Granted, they both are probably true, but my response is, "He is certainly WAY better than anything we currently had on the team". Not only did the Raptors as a whole miss the 24 and 11 he put up on average last year on the whole, but Bargnani missed it incredibly. Chris Bosh really helped him out on both ends of the court, and Bargnani did not have that at all this year. Amir Johnson and Ed Davis were raw, and as much as they show flashes as defensive bigs, they are not as lengthy or as aware as Chris Bosh is on that end of the floor. Reggie Evans was hurt for most of the year, and gives you no help on offense or spreading the floor.

Still, Bargnani takes a lot of this on himself. He has been in the league for 5 years, and at 25 years old, I am sure most Raptor fans were hoping for a lot more than his just being a scorer. He is a decent percentage three point shooter, but his FG% leaves a lot to be desired for a 7 footer, regardless to his playing mostly on the perimeter. He has developed little to no post game, and like Dirk Nowitzki, provides little help on the offensive glass due to his being an outside player. What has made Dirk great though, is that he has become a good defensive rebounder, and a constant double double guy, where as Andrea is absolutely pathetic on that end of the court as well.

His first year in the league, Andrea really started off looking like a huge possibility of being the best player in that draft class. Brandon Roy deserved Rookie of the Year, but Andrea seemed far ahead of the curve for a 20 year old rookie coming over from Europe. He was a fearless clutch shooter, nothing seemed to faze him, and Dirk Nowitzki even said that Andrea was further developed at age 20 than he was. Seems great right? Well, the key to being ahead of the curve, is using this advantage to develop new aspects on your game to remain there. Work your butt off, lift weights and work on the parts of your game that will indeed help you stay ahead, or come closer to catching the current Nowitzki. This has seemed to be Andrea’s biggest problem.

Andrea had a very poor second year, at least compared to his promising first year. Than, it appeared as though the Raps had given up on him, when he showed flashes at the end of year 3. Last year, he proved that he, not Turkoglu, was the second guy on the Raptors, which for a guy who had just come off of being a major factor in bringing a team to an NBA Finals (even though he was a Pillsbury doughboy), was not to shabby. However, even with taking on more of the scoring load and reaching that over 20 ppg plateau, his awareness, rebounding and defense seemed more lacksadaisical than ever. He is playing out of position, he should definitely be a 4 man, but Chris Bosh did the same thing for years on Toronto with much more urgency and productivity. If Chris Bosh is "soft" what does that make Bargnani? A big pile of gooey marshmellow?

Everyone is saying that "he is what he is". Well, if that is the case, the Raptors need to either find a way to cater to his strengths and weaknesses, which they have not come close to doing, or let someone else worry about this. His being just a scorer means that they are going to have to find a number of weaknesses to cover up, and it is not worth it. Bargnani’s contract is very manageable to deal, he is after all a talented 7 footer, but he needs a very specific team to take him on. I saw enough of Ed Davis this year to lead me to believe that if I had to choose between he or Andrea, I am rolling with Ed. He is raw, and he is nowhere as talented offensively as Andrea, but he is a solid rebounder and an aggressive defender, he is what the Raptors need at PF. Andrea needs to be on a team that caters to his strengths, rather than be built around to cover up his weaknesses.

This summer, or whenever he is able too, Colangelo needs to make some drastic moves if he wants this team to be on the right rebuilding path. Calderon and Bargnani are two players most Raptors fans are desperate to move, and it truly would be amazing if that were possible. If the Raptors had completed that Tyson Chandler trade, it would have been absolutely ideal. Still, getting rid of them is easier said than done, but at least Colangelo has shown some urgency and even some fire over his claimed ties to Bargnani that lead one to believe he will be dealing him. The Raptors have two pieces right now as far as viable starters, DeMar DeRozan, who seems to be looking right on schedule as a potential All-Star SG and Ed Davis, who at the very least will be a viable starter and two way player. As far as Bargnani goes, I hope he finds a nice role on a team that could use him, but I do not think he is the right fit for a Toronto team looking to develop a winning identity, and building around him would be a big mistake.

[dmo21Participant]

I am a Raptors fan I kinda have a different view of Bargs. I don’t think we should trade him as he still has that potential to be very good and he has skills that not many players of his size have. If they were to trade him, they would never get equal value for him. Yes, the team is a mess and was made up wrong to surround Bargnani, the team should have been made up like the Mavs with Dirk.. I still think things could get better because Ed Davis could be that defensive force beside Bargnani who can block shots and rebound. Having James Johnson as the starting small forward helps too as he rebounds, plays hard defense, and block shots. This team just has to find an identity and play some team ball which Bargs has to be a part of, because when Bargs does play he is sort of becoming a black hole, which he doesnt need to be because he is a pretty good passer. I just think we should let this team grow before we blow it up, the only players I really wanna get rid of are Barbosa and Kleiza, they aren’t helping this team at all.

[thparadoxParticipant]

Bargnani issues

1) Rebounding awareness

-You know the instinct of understanding where the ball is going? the innate feel for the post that great rebounders have? If you’d rate Kevin Love 100/100 on that scale, Bargnani is probably a 20/100. He just doesn’t have a clue where to go. Any rebounds he gets just happen to fall right into his hands. He has no idea how to box out, because he doesn’t know where the opposing player is trying to get on the floor. This is an essential skill and if he doesn’t figure this out, he’ll always be a subpar player

2) Smooth offensive moves

– You can learn a lot about what Bargnani is lacking on offensive by watching a guy like Dirk, who Bargani is supposed to be emulating. Dirk has a very fundamental game, centered on his ability to knock down jumpers. If a defender if smaller than him, Dirk can back him down a bit, and shoot a J over him. If the defender is slower, dirk can do a one dribble move… he can drive to the hole, etc. He also has very standard moves he goes to: pump fake and drive. pivot-fake- up and under. jab step-fade away.

Bargnani simply hasn’t developed a smooth game. He’s great off the catch and shoot. But under defensive pressure he seems to have 2 moves.1) fade-away jumper (often this is off-balance, not in rhythm like dirk) 2) drive to the basket. He doesn’t drive nearly as much as he needs to, and mostly settles for jumpers. His shot fake is really crappy, and seldom does he blow by a defender anyway.

This makes him a less efficient player on high volume. He’s ok as a 2nd or 3rd scorer, but he can’t put a team on his back.

3) He doesn’t bring ANYTHING else to the table but a jumper. He’s a 7 foot jump shot.

Conclusion:

Bargnani’s problems are probably 80% mental. I agree with the person who said he needs a mentor… except what he really needs is a team of coaches working with him around the clock. I don’t hold out any hope for him though. He’s been around veteran players like Jermaine O’neal. He couldn’t learn a few moves from Jermaine? He couldn’t learn how to rebound from Reggie Evans? He couldn’t learn some offensive moves from watching and emulating Dirk? His lack of progress is very sad.

[Scottoant93Participant]

Thank you I think you prolly gave the best answer I have gotten. You gave an opinion from both views(supporters and anti-supporters). I agree I would start with Davis, I also Think BC has build this team, the wrong way, I mean every season he makes trades,which seem good but bust, and then gets rid of them and brings in scrubs. Bargs would be great for a team like orlando,bucks,Thunder(unlikely to happen). I wonder what BC can get for him though, I think its agreed that bargs and raps need to part ways for both sides interest

[Snubs15Participant]

Bargnani does not make his teammates better. He forces his players to work harder on the defnsive end to hide his defeiciencies and on offense he doesnt pass. He is a black hole who holds the ball for too long. He never knows what hes gonna do and needs to be more decisive when he plays. It gets the offense out of rhythm and hurts the team. He has alot of potential but after 5 years in the league its pretty clear that its not working in toronto. 20+ points per game is aight but almost any player who gets the offense ran through them can pul that off. Derozan could average 20+ if he were the go to guy. And he could do it more efficiently as well.

[Jlv2011]

he’s on the Toronto Raptors.  He needs to leave so he can develop more productively somewhere else.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

As possible destinations, hate the Thunder (for a few reasons), but just a bad fit. The Thunder have started putting pieces into play for a very nice defensive and rebounding front court, not to mention I believe Ibaka will possibly become a decent fourth offensive option. If they mess with that, they are idiots. But, they will not and continue to bother me with just how well they are building their team.

Orlando would be seemingly perfect, and the Bucks might not be horrible, he would be a nice offensive kick for them and hopefully with a healthy Bogut provide a decent inside/outside combo. Their are other teams that could use him too, I am sure, but you really need to have a vision for him. Charlotte for instance is desperate for another scoring option to go with S-Jax, though I would not want to see what their combined FG% would be, not to mention the utter lack of a low post defensive presence. Well, I am sure some team will gamble on him, and if you have the right pieces and vision, it could pay off. I just believe the Raptors would be better off gambling on their current group of young talent rather than building around a guy who is clearly not a player you want to be building around.

[Scottoant93Participant]

This thread wasn’t made to argue he’s a franchise player(hes not), I’ve just never seen a player who doesn’t cause trouble, or bash his team recieve so much hate. I mentioned thunder as unlikely to not only because of your reason of thier solid core, BC would ask too much and its not worth it. Anyway everyone has talked about bargs. No one answered my second question Do Demar and Ed davis stay in toronto when contract is up(I know is way down the future, but give a prediction)

[ChrischiParticipant]

Because of comments like these.

Bargnani is a joke. His team is extremely bad and still doesn’t manage to put up numbers. I expected him to get 24-8 with the Raptors style, without CB4 and with a very capable offensive PG in Calderon and with him looking a lot stronger. 22ppg looks nice, but the Raptors play fast and his FG% is still bad (45%), because he is not taking a lot of shots off the dribble like Dirk or Kobe who take all the tough shots from their respective teams.

And then his rebounding. I understand that he is a stretch PF who does not spend a lot of time in the paint just like Dirk but 5 rpg in 36mpg on a fast team??? That’s just poor. I mean Dirk was never a great rebounder, especially on the offensive end because he is mostly standing out side of the paint to strech the floor but he always got you 9-10 rebounds. Now that he is older his rebounding got even worse and he lost a lot of strength but he still manages to get you 7-8 rpg in 34 mpg. And lets not even talk about his non-existing defense.

But what Bargnani does is just poor. I mean this year was his chance to step up, grow some balls and be something like a leader for a team where he was supposed to be the man. I totally understand that the Raptors fans want to get rid of him.

[ChrischiParticipant]

@scottoant93

I think DeRozan and Ed Davis will stay. Davis stepped up late in the season and DeRozan improved also. I think the Raptors will try to build around those two and the pick they take this season. I’m not to sure if they keep Bargnani. If they play him and Davis together the Raptors will remain a sucky team on D, if they get rid of him they lose their 1st round pick.

I would get rid of him, he is more of a good role player who complements athletic players with his shooting. Something like a 4th option for a championship team, maybe 3rd option for a playoff team.

[joe360Participant]

I’m a firm believer that winning cures all. The Raptors have a good core of role players. Role players are great but you need a couple of all stars to be a contender. Until they have a legit superstar, they will never get past the first round. But once they do, free agents won’t mind playing in Toronto. Just look back at the vince era. He attracted hakeem the dream at the end of his carreer because he thought he would have a legit chance to win a championship. Even though he played his entire career with Houston. Sure he was old but he would never have gone there if he didnt believe he could win it all.

[OhCanada-Participant]

To say Bargnani has nothing to bring to the table but a 7-foot jump shot is true in a way but false in many others. His variety of jumpshots would make other jumpshooting bigs look like garbage. He has a stepback, his little dribble cross pump then shot, many different turnaround jumpers, a progressing post game, great catch and shoot guy, geat pull up guy, he is not just a set shooting stretch big. When shotblockers get out there on the perimeter with him h makes them bite with hs great pump fake. Nobody is doubting his offensive game, and I strongly disagree that he is limited in that regard.

What he is limited in is a consistant move that cannot be stopped. At the end of the game in crunch time everyone on the defensive end knows what he will do, and knows what they have to do to stop it. Not only does he have to make the shot, but bragnani also has to face defensive pressure from a player is confident he knows what Bargnani will do, and is probally right. It is best to have Bargnani as a 2nd, or 3rd option. possibly even a bench scoring 2nd option similar to Crawford in the Playoffs so far vs Orlando.

[Snubs15Participant]

Players put more value into playing on a good team rather than what city they are playing for. If the Lakers had a 10-72 record do you think they attract as many players compared to a 57-25 record. Not even close. For Derozan and Ed to stay the Raps have to be showing signs of becoming a contender and must be competing for a playoff spot in the next couple years. I beleive the raps will be in the playoffs in 2 years and they will resign because of the bright future and they will have big roles on the team.

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