This topic contains 30 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar rtbt 10 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #49288
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    OhCanada-
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    Time and time again in the NBA Draft it seems that a players potential is defined by his athletisism. Now I understand that top tier athletisism cannot be taught and a player with top of the line athletisism will always have a physical advantage over his opponents that cannot be compensated, but at the same time if that player cannot train and establish a skill set to utilize his athletisism he will never be able to maximize that potential. Therefore instead of measuring potential by athletisism shouldn’t it be measured by a players confident mentalities, will to learn, work ethic, and self discipline which are the skills needed to improve ones skillset.

    People say athletisism cannot be taught..well I say breaking almost any habbit is extremely hard. Making a pessimist an optimist, a procrastinator an oppurtunist, or a lazy person proactive is impossible.You can only influence another person to change the choice is made by the individual and it rarely happens sort of like changing a players shot form. So a player that cannot consistently prove to have these mental skills, constantly be motivated to improve and believe he is the best will never be a star in the NBA.

    These skills have nothing to do with bball IQ, or behavour but more about constant improvement, work ethic, confidence, and consistency. Thats why Gilbert Arenas, Monta Ellis, Paul Millsap, David West etc. made it from literally unknown to NBA stars. They excepted nothing less.

    Now I’m not saying that by this formula DJ Stephens a guy that has no skillset whatsoever and very little experience has higher upside then Lucas Nogiera who has reportably been lazy, passive, un-aggressive, and has not shown the will to improve although I would say he is more likely to maximize his potential and reach his cieling.

    Although I do believe Shabazz Muhammad will be a better player then Ben Mclemore. With these two players you have the worst of both worlds. Shabazz is overly aggressive, confident, egotistical (young Jamal Crawford mentally), Ben is tentative, passive, and sometimes it seems he coasts at times (similar to Demar Derozan mentally). I would rather have the player who believes any shot he takes despite the difficulty of the shot or pressure behind it will go in. To me Bens mentality will limit his impact and potential leaving a borderline all star similar to Demar Derozan, but Muhammad has more potential because he already believes he is better then anybody in the NBA, he works extremely hard on every play, and will continue to improve.

    Shabazz Muhammad should not be compared to Micheal Beasley, and Demarcus Cousins mentally he should be compared to a young Jamal Crawford, or Dion Waiters mentally just like Ben Mcclemore shouldn’t be compared to Ray Allen with Vince Carter athletisism he should be compared to Demar Derozan/Nick Young.

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  • #781703
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    OhCanada-
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    To add to that Ben will be an amazing 2nd 3rd option but does not have 1st option potential unless there is a GM who thinks he can bring those characteristics out of him even though Bill Self couldn’t.

    Shabazz has already the skillset, mentality and athletisism to score 18-ppg with low efficiency in the NBA.

    I guess it’s similar to choosing from Beal and Waiters.

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    • #781754
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      WinterSoldier
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      Great post! I will say one thing about athletism and the players you mentioned. Millsap, Ellis(He actually has pretty good athletism) West have developed great offensive games but lack of athletism has hurt them on there defensive game. It is very difficult to become a great two way player without great athletism. Although it is possible example Tim Duncan.

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    • #781822
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      WinterSoldier
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      Great post! I will say one thing about athletism and the players you mentioned. Millsap, Ellis(He actually has pretty good athletism) West have developed great offensive games but lack of athletism has hurt them on there defensive game. It is very difficult to become a great two way player without great athletism. Although it is possible example Tim Duncan.

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    • #781835
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      max23
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      Athletism and physical ability is not everything,countless guys can attest to that..But it is a huge part of the puzzle.How many guys with all the will,confidence in the world are out of the league because they can’t jump as high,don’t have the foot speed,quickness yo play defense,don’t have right wingspan,strenght…
      Let’s put it this way…the guy with the best work ethic in the league is probably Lebron.Now get rid of his speed,jumping ability,quickness,strenght,wingspan,and put those at slightly below average.This new Lebron is not even close to top 50 players in the league…
      Guys with great vertical leap,wingspan,strenght,quickness,foot speed,all of those not just can jump high,should be viewed as having high potential.High potential meaning has a high probability of being a great player with proper coaching,and great work ethic,proper coaching and great work ethic increasing confidence.Only confidence and willing to work hard is not enough.

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    • #781904
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      max23
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      Athletism and physical ability is not everything,countless guys can attest to that..But it is a huge part of the puzzle.How many guys with all the will,confidence in the world are out of the league because they can’t jump as high,don’t have the foot speed,quickness yo play defense,don’t have right wingspan,strenght…
      Let’s put it this way…the guy with the best work ethic in the league is probably Lebron.Now get rid of his speed,jumping ability,quickness,strenght,wingspan,and put those at slightly below average.This new Lebron is not even close to top 50 players in the league…
      Guys with great vertical leap,wingspan,strenght,quickness,foot speed,all of those not just can jump high,should be viewed as having high potential.High potential meaning has a high probability of being a great player with proper coaching,and great work ethic,proper coaching and great work ethic increasing confidence.Only confidence and willing to work hard is not enough.

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  • #781771
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    OhCanada-
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    To add to that Ben will be an amazing 2nd 3rd option but does not have 1st option potential unless there is a GM who thinks he can bring those characteristics out of him even though Bill Self couldn’t.

    Shabazz has already the skillset, mentality and athletisism to score 18-ppg with low efficiency in the NBA.

    I guess it’s similar to choosing from Beal and Waiters.

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  • #781709
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    BenchWarmer
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    Ben Mclemore will be a far better defender than Demar and Nick Young. He is better coming of screens, playing offball and shooting then Demar and he certainly shouldnt be compared to Nick Young who is an off the dribble type shooter who has absolutely nothing between the ears. Mclemore to Ray Allen is by far better and I believe he is going to be really good. He will finally get paid and won’t have to worry about his families financial issues, he can let his agent worry about money and play basketball for the sake of playing basketball

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  • #781777
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    BenchWarmer
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    Ben Mclemore will be a far better defender than Demar and Nick Young. He is better coming of screens, playing offball and shooting then Demar and he certainly shouldnt be compared to Nick Young who is an off the dribble type shooter who has absolutely nothing between the ears. Mclemore to Ray Allen is by far better and I believe he is going to be really good. He will finally get paid and won’t have to worry about his families financial issues, he can let his agent worry about money and play basketball for the sake of playing basketball

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  • #781728
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    DaGuywhodidurma
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    I get the point you are trying to make but you answered your own dilemma on your second line. athleticism cannot be taught. just like height. those two are undeniable truths.

    take for example kcp and hardaway Jr. someone compared them in another thread. obviously they both provide similar skill sets but why is kcp considered a lotto pick while hardaway is a late first rounder at best? athleticism is your answer. while hardaway can work as hard as he wants there comes a point in time when he will reach his limit and won’t improve any further athletically. while kcp will be able to achieve similar results with lesser effort(i’m not saying kcp is lazy or anything)

    as for the list of players you have as examples. I’d say only David west is the only average athlete out of the bunch. Monte Ellis is lightning quick. arenas had a great combination of quickness and power plus hops in his prime(did you ever see him jump out of that pool?) and i also say that millsap is a very good athlete for a pf. in fact he is such a good athlete that he can play sf and defend that position successfully.

    if you look at the top 30 players in the nba you will find that most of them posses a great athletic skill that sets them apart from the lesser players. be it quickness,speed,or pure jumping ability. (the only one I can think of that isn’t one is Kevin love)

    the fact is that teams draft for superstars that can carry a franchise. I know thats a dumb way to draft sometimes but no-one wants to draft role players. everyone wants to hit a home run. I would rather go the safe route and draft the Danny greens and Wesley Matthews of the world than busts like Joel Alexander and the like, but it’s a superstar league and most superstars are great athletes.

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  • #781796
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    DaGuywhodidurma
    Participant

    I get the point you are trying to make but you answered your own dilemma on your second line. athleticism cannot be taught. just like height. those two are undeniable truths.

    take for example kcp and hardaway Jr. someone compared them in another thread. obviously they both provide similar skill sets but why is kcp considered a lotto pick while hardaway is a late first rounder at best? athleticism is your answer. while hardaway can work as hard as he wants there comes a point in time when he will reach his limit and won’t improve any further athletically. while kcp will be able to achieve similar results with lesser effort(i’m not saying kcp is lazy or anything)

    as for the list of players you have as examples. I’d say only David west is the only average athlete out of the bunch. Monte Ellis is lightning quick. arenas had a great combination of quickness and power plus hops in his prime(did you ever see him jump out of that pool?) and i also say that millsap is a very good athlete for a pf. in fact he is such a good athlete that he can play sf and defend that position successfully.

    if you look at the top 30 players in the nba you will find that most of them posses a great athletic skill that sets them apart from the lesser players. be it quickness,speed,or pure jumping ability. (the only one I can think of that isn’t one is Kevin love)

    the fact is that teams draft for superstars that can carry a franchise. I know thats a dumb way to draft sometimes but no-one wants to draft role players. everyone wants to hit a home run. I would rather go the safe route and draft the Danny greens and Wesley Matthews of the world than busts like Joel Alexander and the like, but it’s a superstar league and most superstars are great athletes.

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  • #781730
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    SeattleSuperChronics
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    U remember ndudi ebi

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  • #781798
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    SeattleSuperChronics
    Participant

    U remember ndudi ebi

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  • #781734
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    GottaBeTheShoes
    Participant

    There’s a reason Larry Bird is one of the greatest ever. There is a reason so many were thought to be a Kobe or even a Jordan and they are quickly forgotten. But I think it’s hard to truly label a player as lazy etc, because it’s impossible to make the NBA without putting time in the weight room and taking millions of shots in the gym over time. Unfortunately for those who are athletically-challenged they are automatically limited, and I think GM’s hate limited potential when it comes to first round picks.
    There’s a reason I like Otto Porter and Trey Burke instead of those 2, they may not have as much superstar potential but they clearly put in the work, have a great mentality, and Porter is NBA ready and neither seem like they could be huge busts.

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  • #781802
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    GottaBeTheShoes
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    There’s a reason Larry Bird is one of the greatest ever. There is a reason so many were thought to be a Kobe or even a Jordan and they are quickly forgotten. But I think it’s hard to truly label a player as lazy etc, because it’s impossible to make the NBA without putting time in the weight room and taking millions of shots in the gym over time. Unfortunately for those who are athletically-challenged they are automatically limited, and I think GM’s hate limited potential when it comes to first round picks.
    There’s a reason I like Otto Porter and Trey Burke instead of those 2, they may not have as much superstar potential but they clearly put in the work, have a great mentality, and Porter is NBA ready and neither seem like they could be huge busts.

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  • #781750
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    This thread is not knocking athletisism. I’m just saying without an aggressive/assertive attitude, without elite confidence and elite work ethic you will never be an elite player. Like Rudy Gay he has a similar skillset, natural talent and athletisism as Kevin Durant but half the dedication, half the focus, half the work ethic, and thus half the productivity.

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    • #781861
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      hbomb3300
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      I was actually just thinking that last time I watched Rudy Gay play. He has all the size and athleticism of a Kevin Durant, very skilled, but just doesn’t polish his game at that level.

      Also, anyone who says Lebron is the hardest worker in the league is nuts. He works hard, no question, but if you want to find the hardest workers you need to look at guys with average athleticism or size and still stick in the league. Steve Nash once said if everyone practiced as hard as him he wouldn’t even be in the league.

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    • #781931
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      hbomb3300
      Participant

      I was actually just thinking that last time I watched Rudy Gay play. He has all the size and athleticism of a Kevin Durant, very skilled, but just doesn’t polish his game at that level.

      Also, anyone who says Lebron is the hardest worker in the league is nuts. He works hard, no question, but if you want to find the hardest workers you need to look at guys with average athleticism or size and still stick in the league. Steve Nash once said if everyone practiced as hard as him he wouldn’t even be in the league.

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  • #781818
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    This thread is not knocking athletisism. I’m just saying without an aggressive/assertive attitude, without elite confidence and elite work ethic you will never be an elite player. Like Rudy Gay he has a similar skillset, natural talent and athletisism as Kevin Durant but half the dedication, half the focus, half the work ethic, and thus half the productivity.

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  • #781752
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    Benchwarmer you can’t compare the two. That’s what this whole thread is about. Allen is one of the hardest working, most confident, professional, consistent players in NBA. Ray is the best 3-pt shooter ever in the NBA and a straight cold blooded killer in crunch time. Mentally he is elite all time, he has one of the greatest mindsets in NBA history. Ben is a guy who has been extremely passive in every Kansas game I watched this year to the point where Bill Self repeatedly preached to him to be selfish. How can you compare a guy who arguably would be the best player all time to take your last 2 free throws in crunch time and a guy who you might have to bench in the 4th because he won’t shoot. Now I understand Ben is a great prospect but he has these issues and Ray never has and never will. There is no comparison between the two other then a pretty shot form.

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    • #781870
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      max23
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      I won’t compare Ben to Ray Allen,but i dont get why you are saying him he was timid,and that means he will not average lots of shots in the nba…
      First of all 15 out of 37 games he shot more than 12 shots a game,which is not timid for a freshman,and averaged 10.9 fga for the year.People are saying he is a possible future all star,do you know who averaged 10.9 fga his freshman year?James Harden,and he averaged more min(34.1 compared to 32.2 for Ben).I’m not saying he is the next James Harden,but saying he can’t be a higher volume shooter in the nba,i just don’t get it.
      Another thing,comparing Ben and Shabazz,Ben went on a team that had 4 seniors in the starting lineup,whereas Shabazz had 2 freshmen,a junior and senior.Him not shooting more than 10.9 fga could just be him trying to fit in.Next year i have no doubt he would have averaged at least 3 more shots if he had stayed.Plus,although he is showing potentil in that area,he is not very good yet as a shooter off the dribble,so why jack up shots…
      Now im not saying he is a for sure superstar.I just don’t get the label you give him as passive,and for sure passive at the next level.

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    • #781801
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      max23
      Participant

      I won’t compare Ben to Ray Allen,but i dont get why you are saying him he was timid,and that means he will not average lots of shots in the nba…
      First of all 15 out of 37 games he shot more than 12 shots a game,which is not timid for a freshman,and averaged 10.9 fga for the year.People are saying he is a possible future all star,do you know who averaged 10.9 fga his freshman year?James Harden,and he averaged more min(34.1 compared to 32.2 for Ben).I’m not saying he is the next James Harden,but saying he can’t be a higher volume shooter in the nba,i just don’t get it.
      Another thing,comparing Ben and Shabazz,Ben went on a team that had 4 seniors in the starting lineup,whereas Shabazz had 2 freshmen,a junior and senior.Him not shooting more than 10.9 fga could just be him trying to fit in.Next year i have no doubt he would have averaged at least 3 more shots if he had stayed.Plus,although he is showing potentil in that area,he is not very good yet as a shooter off the dribble,so why jack up shots…
      Now im not saying he is a for sure superstar.I just don’t get the label you give him as passive,and for sure passive at the next level.

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  • #781820
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    Benchwarmer you can’t compare the two. That’s what this whole thread is about. Allen is one of the hardest working, most confident, professional, consistent players in NBA. Ray is the best 3-pt shooter ever in the NBA and a straight cold blooded killer in crunch time. Mentally he is elite all time, he has one of the greatest mindsets in NBA history. Ben is a guy who has been extremely passive in every Kansas game I watched this year to the point where Bill Self repeatedly preached to him to be selfish. How can you compare a guy who arguably would be the best player all time to take your last 2 free throws in crunch time and a guy who you might have to bench in the 4th because he won’t shoot. Now I understand Ben is a great prospect but he has these issues and Ray never has and never will. There is no comparison between the two other then a pretty shot form.

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  • #781834
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    vulture711
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    Bird, Magic, Tim Duncan, Stockton, Andre Miller, Kyle Kover, glen Davis – a short list of guys carving out careers, some hall of fame – none probably would do much in max vertical or 3/4 sprint

    The list of 40 inch verticals, blazing speed and stuck in the D league is endless

    At the end of the day can you – play ? Shoot ?

    Would you rather draft Paul Pierce or Harold Minor ?

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  • #781766
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    vulture711
    Participant

    Bird, Magic, Tim Duncan, Stockton, Andre Miller, Kyle Kover, glen Davis – a short list of guys carving out careers, some hall of fame – none probably would do much in max vertical or 3/4 sprint

    The list of 40 inch verticals, blazing speed and stuck in the D league is endless

    At the end of the day can you – play ? Shoot ?

    Would you rather draft Paul Pierce or Harold Minor ?

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    • #782120
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      rtbt
      Participant

      A few years ago, somebody wrote an article which followed the early careers of the guys who had the 10 highest scores at the NBA Combine 2 years earlier. Of the ten players with the best physical skills, I think 4 were out of the league within that two year time frame, 3 or 4 were bench players, and only 2 or 3 were stars in the league.

      Having said the above, I don’t want to underestimate the importance of athleticism, height, and reach when analyzing player potential. Vulture’s post and the article I mentioned point out that one can become an outstanding NBA player, or even a major star like Bird or Magic, without those off the chart physical attributes. But having that great athleticism is always a major plus.

      I remember from my younger days, many of the NBA’s best rebounders were guys who couldn’t jump six inches off the ground. Wes Unseld, Paul Silas, and Charles Oakley come to mind, but there were many others.

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    • #782191
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      rtbt
      Participant

      A few years ago, somebody wrote an article which followed the early careers of the guys who had the 10 highest scores at the NBA Combine 2 years earlier. Of the ten players with the best physical skills, I think 4 were out of the league within that two year time frame, 3 or 4 were bench players, and only 2 or 3 were stars in the league.

      Having said the above, I don’t want to underestimate the importance of athleticism, height, and reach when analyzing player potential. Vulture’s post and the article I mentioned point out that one can become an outstanding NBA player, or even a major star like Bird or Magic, without those off the chart physical attributes. But having that great athleticism is always a major plus.

      I remember from my younger days, many of the NBA’s best rebounders were guys who couldn’t jump six inches off the ground. Wes Unseld, Paul Silas, and Charles Oakley come to mind, but there were many others.

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  • #781878
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    B-ball fan
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    Neither McLemore nor Muhammad will ever be 1st options in the NBA, so neither will be asked to dominate. McLemore may be “passive,” but I think it is generally better to have a player whose weaknesses revolve around what he doesn’t do, rather than what he does do. At the very least, McLemore spaces the floor, scores in transition, and plays solid defense. Muhammad doesn’t have specific skills to hang his hat on.

    While perhaps Muhammad’s extreme condidence would give him more potential if he was a first option, he is probably even farther away from that than McLemore. McLemore is an outstanding shooter with supreme athleticism who has a very nice feel for the game. He has room to improve his ball handling and finishing ability. Muhammad’s mediocre feel for the game and poor court awareness should prevent him from ever being an effective top offensive option. I would rank McLemore’s upside higher because he is both a smarter player and a more talented player.

    I do agree with the premise that athleticism doesn’t = potential. Dario Saric is one of the higher upside player’s in this year’s draft and his lack of ideal athleticism really holds him back as a player. And Adonis Thomas may have great athleticism, but he lacks the skills to become even a mildly below average offensive player for a long time. And Rodney Williams has elite athleticism, but he is certainly not a high upside pick.

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  • #781809
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    B-ball fan
    Participant

    Neither McLemore nor Muhammad will ever be 1st options in the NBA, so neither will be asked to dominate. McLemore may be “passive,” but I think it is generally better to have a player whose weaknesses revolve around what he doesn’t do, rather than what he does do. At the very least, McLemore spaces the floor, scores in transition, and plays solid defense. Muhammad doesn’t have specific skills to hang his hat on.

    While perhaps Muhammad’s extreme condidence would give him more potential if he was a first option, he is probably even farther away from that than McLemore. McLemore is an outstanding shooter with supreme athleticism who has a very nice feel for the game. He has room to improve his ball handling and finishing ability. Muhammad’s mediocre feel for the game and poor court awareness should prevent him from ever being an effective top offensive option. I would rank McLemore’s upside higher because he is both a smarter player and a more talented player.

    I do agree with the premise that athleticism doesn’t = potential. Dario Saric is one of the higher upside player’s in this year’s draft and his lack of ideal athleticism really holds him back as a player. And Adonis Thomas may have great athleticism, but he lacks the skills to become even a mildly below average offensive player for a long time. And Rodney Williams has elite athleticism, but he is certainly not a high upside pick.

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  • #781837
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    ph90702

    Athleticism and physical tools are big components of potential. You also have to have the right intangibles, basketball I.Q,, and feel for the game.

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  • #781906
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    ph90702

    Athleticism and physical tools are big components of potential. You also have to have the right intangibles, basketball I.Q,, and feel for the game.

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