Vince Carter vs. Hedo
Ever since the trade went down this offseason, all I have heard from "other NBA fans" has been, "Oh, Vince Carter is past his prime, he is a downgrade from Hedo Turkoglu."
In addition others have made statements such as, "Hedo made that offense go and got everybody their touches, Carter is not the type of player to create for others like Hedo did."
Generally speaking, it seemed that overall, NBA fanatics are really against this trade.
Why? Well who knows why, because here is proof that Vince Carter is better than Hedo Turkoglu.
Since Carter has stepped foot onto the NBA court, he has never averaged under 18.3 PPG (except during the 2004-05 season when he played only 20 total games), three APG, 4.4 RPG, and one SPG.
In his career, he has averaged a phenomenal 23.5 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 4.3 APG, and 1.2 SPG, on 44.7 field-goal percentage, 37.6 three-point percentage, and 79.6 free-throw percentage.
Playing for two different teams throughout his career, Carter proved that regardless of which city he played in, he could play ball and at a supreme level.
Hedo Turkoglu's career NBA averages are 12.3 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 2.7 APG, and 0.8 SPG, on 42.8 percent field-goal percentage, 38.5 three-point percentage, and 80.1 free-throw percentage.
Turkoglu began his career playing for the Sacramento Kings for three seasons and then the San Antonio Spurs for another.
During that time he was nothing more than an under-utilized backup power forward who never played more than 26 minutes per game.
A player that is being compared to Carter's caliber would certainly have "great" enough talent to not be overlooked by Hall of Fame coaches like Rick Adelman and Gregg Popavich, now would he?
How come during Turkoglu's time spent on the Kings and Spurs' roster, he never got the opportunity to show his skills and emerge as a top player in the league?
The answer is because he never was and never will be the kind of player that you fans are seeking him out to be.
The only reason Turkoglu has become such an outstanding ball player is because of the system he has now played in for the last two seasons, which has been coached by Stan Van Gundy.
Just take a look. Check out Turk's three season stats before Van Gundy came.
When Van Gundy arrived as the new head coach for the Orlando Magic during the 2007-08 season, Turk went from averaging 13.3 PPG, 4.0 RPG, and 3.2 APG (the season prior), to rising as the Most Improved Player of the Year, posting a career-high 19.5 PPG, 5.7 RPG, and five APG.
The following season, which was the 2008-09 NBA season, Turkoglu put up 16.8 PPG, 5.3 RPG, and 4.9 APG. He played no short of spectacular throughout the entire playoffs and hit a few extremely clutch shots for the Magic.
But the truth does not lie, Turkoglu is not the same player when he is not in Stan Van Gundy's system of play, and that will be shown during next season.
Still think Turk is better than Carter?
In 75 fourth quarters last season, Carter shot better than 46 percent from the field and converted on 80.6 percent of his free throws. Turkoglu shot just under 38 percent in 101 fourth quarters last season and hit 79.6 percent of his free throws.
Some of the difference can be placed on the shooting style of the players. Carter takes higher-percentage shots, while Turkoglu likes the three-pointer.
• Turkoglu averaged 5.1 points in the fourth quarter, while Carter came in at 4.9 points, essentially a tie.
• But Turkoglu put up 29.6 percent of his total shots in that time, while Carter took only 20.2 percent of his shots.
• Turkoglu took 33.1 percent of his three-pointers in the fourth quarter and a high 38.9 percent of his free throws.
• But Turkoglu, whose three-point percentage was 36 for the game, only made 31 percent in the fourth. Carter hit 38 percent of his three-pointers in the fourth, which is about the same as his percentage for the game.
The proof is right there, Vince Carter scores his points consistantly throughout the entire game span, while even coming up huge for his team during the final quarter of the game.
Hedo Turkoglu shot nearly 30 percent of his total shots during the regular season in the fourth quarter, 33.1 percent of his total three-pointers in the fourth quarter, and almost 40 percent of his free-throws; proving that Turkoglu produced the majority of his statistics during only the fourth quarter of the game.
Even with all those stats, Carter still managed to average just .2 less PPG during the fourth quarter than Turkoglu.
Carter also proved statistically that he shot a much better shooting percentage from the field during the fourth quarter (46.0 percent), than Turkoglu (just under 38.0 percent).
Overview and Final Verdict
From all the information listed above, it's no doubt that Vince Carter is the better overall player when comparing the two.
He is a better shooter (statistically), he scores more PPG, grabs more RPG, dishes out more APG, steals more SPG, and is inevitably a much more consistent overall athlete than Hedo Turkoglu.
I found this article on the interent & thought people may learn a thing or two from it. Obviously I've been saying Carter is the better player. Add this to the fact that Brandon Bass is alot better than Alston or Lee and the Magic clearly have gotten better. Not to mention Ryan Anderson has a lot of talent and is still very young. Magic Easter Conference Champs..no doubt it my mind.
On a purely talent basis, GatorHeels is obviously correct, Vince Carter is a big time NBA star while Turkoglu is an above average talent.
The big question is team chemistry. The guys that Orlando lost or gave up, fit in very nicely with the team concept. I don't think Ryan Anderson or B. Bass are going to have any problems fitting into the Orlando style. And they're definitely an upgrade which will make Orlando a better team.
But I wonder about Vince Carter who always wants to be the man. If Carter is intent on being the man in Orlando and does his one on one thing, this could backfire on the Magic. Even though I agree that Carter is a better player, something tells me that Turkoglu was a much better fit for Orlando and they're really going to miss him next year. Let's also factor in Carter's advancing age that will make him more susceptible to nagging injuries.
i think vince carter is an upgrade on Hedo.....but i don't think anderson and bass are a upgrade. Alston led the team to the finals, everthing looked like it was going down-hill when jameer nelson got injured.......Im pretty sure bass can't lead them to the finals..... Courtney lee showed he could start and now has more experience then anderson after coming from the finals......
I always thought Carter was going to help Orlando more than hurt. He is more of a pure scorer than Turk is, and he looks to pass less often but it balances out, especially when you go by the stats you posted. If anything, this trade keeps the Magic the same caliber team, or better.
Lee started but didn't show much... he isn't that efficient.. u need to do some research. Bass can lead them to the finals. He gives them a true PF..something Orlando didn't have last season. If Alston was that important then the Magic wouldn't have benched him so quick when Nelson came back. Alston is purely a backup PG that was forced to start. He was definitely not the reason this team made the finals.
Courtney Lee 6'5" SG 8pts 2reb 1ast 1stl 45%FG 40%3pt 83%FT PER 10.8 25minutes
Hedo 6'10" SF 17pts 5reb 5ast 41%FG 36%3pts 81%FT PER 14.8 37minutes
Alston 6'2" PG 12pts 3reb 5ast 1stl 39%FG 34%3pt 75%FT PER 13.8 32minutes
Bass 6'8" PF 9pts 5reb 1ast 1blk 50%FG 87%FT PER 16.5 19minutes
Anderson 6'10" PF 7pts 5reb 1ast 1stl 39%FG 37%3pt 85%FT PER 13.6 20minutes
Carter 6'6" SG 21pts 5reb 5ast 1stl 44%FG 39%3pt 82%FT PER 19.4 37minutes
PER stands for "player efficiency rating"
Look at what Carter did compared to what Hedo did playing the same amount of minutes. Carter is clearly better. Also Hedo had way more help around him.
It is clear people are really sleeping on Bass. Considering what he did in Dallas playing only 19 minutes was impressive. He is clearly WAY MORE productive than Alston or Lee.
Lets just add up the combined stats also. Together Lee, Hedo, & Alston in a total of 94 minutes produce 37pts 10reb 11ast 2stl
Meanwhile Bass, Anderson, & Carter put up these stats in 76 minutes 37pts 15reb 7ast 3stl 1blk
Clearly the Magic are a better team now. They are more productive & have better size.
rtbt... what are u talking about?? the problem with vince carter has always been that HE HAS NEVER WANTED TO BE THE GO TO GUY! i've got to watch the first half of his career in toronto were he was able to do great things in the clutch but never wanted to have to deal with want came with being the face of the franchise... the most sucess v. carter had was when he was surround by veterans who took alot of the heat off of him and held him accountable for showing up every night... i think vince will be back in a situation were he will be able to score alot easier with defences not solely focused on him with the threat of howard, lewis and nelson... great upgrade for the magic
Let me rephrase this before people get it twisted, He will be the go to guy late in the game when they can not rely on a team not fouling Howard and sending him to the line where he does not make many. Orlando Magic's system will keep them close thoughout the game. They have trouble finishing. Anderson gives them versatility and Bass gives them toughness. You put him and Howard on the court together and it will get physical for other teams. Nelson will be the man as far as the ball being in his hand for like the first 3 quarters but they need Carter to help them finish. This was something Hedo did not do enough off despite his skills and he overall team contribution.
I disagree with BasketballGuru24. It's true that Alston did well during the playoffs, but he also had his negative moments and he's only an average guard. Courtney Lee is a good player but let's not turn him into an all star. He's a guy you can definitely replace.
I think Ryan Anderson is someone the Nets gave up on too quickly. He's a very good rebounder and he can drain 3 pointers, he just didn't do it during his rookie season. Is that unusual? No, very few players do well their first year in the league.
Brendon Bass is a guy who is outstanding on the offensive boards. He always did well in Dallas, but I can only imagine what he can do coming off the bench in Orlando when the entire defense is concentrating on keeping D. Howard off the boards. I think Bass is going to have a field day playing with D. Howard.
And finally, we know what Turkoglu did for Orlando, he helped lead them to the finals. I question whether Vince Carter, who's clearly a better player, will hurt team chemistry. One should never underestimate the value of guys playing and working together.
Gatorhill was nice enough to show the stats of what I was saying that he was brought in to be a go to guy at the end of games which the main reason that Orlando could not beat the Lakers and struggled with the Bulls and Celtics. They have trouble finishing games. All that other stuff in not as important.
Thats why they lost Nelson totally scrwed up the chemistry they knew he was an all-star so they thought that was their best chance of winning ....nelson averaged 3.8 pts and 2.8 ast....and not to mention 16% from behind the arch...alston was averaging 12pts and 4.1 ast per game during the play-offs........and are you serious orlando was doomed if they didn't find a point guard quick....thats why they were forced to get alston come deadline day.........Hedo was a better small forward then lewis will be......he created and got everyone involved, now that lewis will play SF what will he do.....just plant himself at the 3pt line?? and what then carter will try to create something....leaving Jameer nelson?? and bass can't shoot the 3 so this makes everthing even worse....they were known as a 3pt shooting team....and thats what brought them to the finals
Also I still like Courtney Lee but I understand that Orlando had depth and also they need to win now so they got Carter. Lee will be a beast though soon because he can get his own shot and he can defend. Kobe made him look stupid but Kobe does that to vets so as a rookie he should not feel bad.
deshawynkeys91 wrote, "rtbt... what are u talking about?"
Hey deshawynkeys91, let's not confuse success with style. I watched a lot of Net games this past season and Vince Carter wanted and needed the ball in his hands. His style is lots of "One on One" while his teammates stand around and watch him. I will agree he wasn't very successful, but he plays as if he's the man and that can disrupt team chemistry. So that's what I was talking about.
Not to mention since bass can't shoot the 3......he is taking space away from dwight to create his own shot and practically landing him in a double team.....
Actually something Bass can do that other players could not is they can run the pick and roll and screen plays opposite of where Howard is which means they can get good shots and howard can be a killer on the glass without having to be involved directly in any play because Bass can take up space and set great picks.
It's true that Bass can't shoot the 3, but on Orlando, which is loaded with outstanding 3 point shooters, they don't need that from him. I stand by what I said earlier, B. Bass will have a field day on the offensive boards because the defense will double team D. Howard and do everything they can to keep him off the glass.
As for Bass, he won't have to shoot 3's, all he has to do is grab offensive rebounds and lay them back in the basket.
wasn't that dwights job for the screen and roll.....since dwight was usually screening he will take away the center from the paint........see now there is a empty paint since lewis was always at the 3pt line..........dwight is faster then most centers and was more athletic and we saw that when him and jameer would connect for alley-oops ever other play.........bass would set the pick but dwight will still be in the paint......and since they have bass as a PF they lost one shooter in the team and now players have a better chance of finding who the ball is going to
Orlando was known as a 3pt shooting team and thats what brought them to the finals.........the paint will get to crowded with bass and dwight there, leaving them no room to even breathe let alone thow up a shot....they don't have the spacing and thats what is going to hurt them
What can I say BasketballGuru24, we both made our arguments and we clearly disagree.
Even if you were right, Bass is a role player coming off the bench, it's not as if he's going to play 40 minutes per game. He might be on the court when D. Howard is resting.
Vince Carter is light years beyond better than Hedo. You don't even need to go to past stats. Just go to last year. Vince Carter compared to unpopular belief was one of the clutchest players in the NBA last year. Put that team on his back majority of the time AND dished out about 5 assists a game. While Turk don't give you ISH but 3's and a lil ball handling... And wasn't considered a "decent" player till the Magic... Orlando made Hedo, its not the other way around... Carter will be an upgrade over Turk. Hands down...
Bass is a great addition to that team, they need someone besides Dwight to be physical and a rebounding force. Putting them on the floor at the same time is going to be hard to guard. Basketballguru Orlando was a 3 point shooting team but Kobe said it best: when this team is hot they can stay hot for weeks. When Orlando can't hit a 3 though? It's like watching Jason Terry try to provide a spark off the bench, when he's hot he's hot, when he's cold it's like playing 4 on 5 you might as well not even guard him. Bass gives them the ability to pound it inside now, especially if the 3 isn't falling. Before that didn't work bc teams could load up on Howard and the Magic couldn't make the outside shot. Now you have to worry about Bass as the cleanup man on the weakside and Howard doesn't have to kick it to a shooter when they are cold. Bass also has a ridiculous body, he could push any forward in the league out of position.
BasketballGuru- The Magic can easily still create spacing....this is what people keep overlooking. If Orland needs to they can play Lews at PF, Carter at SF, & Pietrus at SG
Yargh!!!Every time I come on here there's another post by Gator about Vince Carter vs Hedo! I'm &$#%#&@! sick of it already! Let's &$#%#&@! talk about this at the end of the season when we &$#%#&@! know how &$#%#&@! good carter was for this &$#%#&@! team. So everybody shut the &$#%#&@! up about this &$#%#&@! topic. I argued my point once and I'm &$#%#&@! done. Nothing else to say. Your not going to &$#%#&@! convince me otherwise nor anyone else. I understand if you want to talk about a subject but not this &$#%#&@! much. Every one has their own &$#%#&@! opinion and you wont &$#%#&@! change it. I'm done. I've said my &$#%#&@! piece. SHUT THE &$#%#&@! UP. FFFFUUUUUCCCCKKKK!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry dwat... this is my last post about this subject.
You can't deny it though. I'm just trying to teach some yall a thing or two. Digest all the material I have posted. Saying the Magic got worse makes no sense...I'm sorry.
Then if they start pieturus .....who is there 6th man, BASS!!! are you kidding me basss will not produce much making there second unit not as good....Vince carter playing small forward is another joke he is to small to play 3.....
ok if the lakers don't resign odom who is their 6th man? Brown? Powell? Mbenga? Morrison? Farmar? Walton? Vujacic? Bass is better than that entire bench combined.
Hey tuck243, I don't think anyone is claiming that Turkoglu is a better player than Vince Carter. The real question is what kind of impact they have on their team. Put aside the stats and ask yourself who went to the NBA Finals and which team went nowhere.
The NBA has a long history of talented individual players and/or talented teams who never went anywhere. That's why I always bring up the question of team chemistry and how a player fit in or impacts a team. I don't think there's any question about the impact Turkoglu had on the Magic last season. Where was Vince Carter's team last year?
The issue is how will the talented Vince Carter fit in with Orlando. Can he do what Turkoglu did last year? He might succeed, but I think he might not fit in the way Turkoglu did.
odom isn't leaving.........he already said he doesn't want to go any were else but he wants more years in his contract ....and it is not about who is better it is about how they play toghther....if lakers really had a bad bench beside odom....how they win, 1 bench player isn't a team ......so why were they champions ??
Believe me, the bench is not what made the Lakers champions. Can you honestly sit there and say that they would have been champions fielding a second unit that DIDNT have Odom on it? Odom has the ability to make that bench halfway decent, without him it is like walking out a group of D-Leaguers and expecting them to play well. Plus, Odom provides a good replacement for Bynum when he gets injured, without him you have to play Powell or go small and play Walton at PF and Pau at C. Without Odom the Lakers take a huge risk of being an also-ran instead of being repeat favorites with him playing.
Hedo was Orlando's go-to player.
The Orlando Magic are losing team chemistry without Hedo, Alston and Lee gone. You can't underestimate this, as it was a major reason why they made it to the finals.
Vince is really older now and can't create how Hedo can.
Hedo is 6 foot 10 and can shoot over defenders, Vince can't.
Vince has been know to injury prone
Bottom line: Orlando should have found a way to keep Hedo.
DHAMP, BABY, THE BEST THERE IS WAS AND EVER WILL BE. expect for hubie brown anyway.
p.s. there's still hope for devendorf. had he changed his last name to devendoria, he would have been a first round pick!
To me its a lateral move seeing that they also lost Lee, not to mention now you have to start Pietrus and your bench is less potent.
Lee will avg 18ppg on a bad Nets team this yr, and he is a future 20ppg scorer.
The trade actually may hinge on Andersen.
Come on D Hamp....
Vince Carter can create better than Hedo can. Also Vince Carter has no problem shooting over defenders hahah... Wow you need to watch more basketball.
s2jepeka- Courtney Lee will never average 20 points per game. Lets be real here...
I copy & pasted this from ESPN
Where do you rank Orlando in terms of a successful offseason? Do you know anything on the possible signing of Matt Barnes?
John Hollinger (3:21 PM)
Massively successful offseason for the Magic, between their moves and the return of Nelson I think they have a great chance at winning a championship. Haven't heard much on Barnes, Magic don't have much of their MLE left so I imagine he'll look other places first -- especially since Orlando already has Lewis, Bass and Anderson at PF.
Vince Carter and Brandon Bass for Turkoglu, Alston, Battie and Lee? How is this a massive success ? Turk is the best player of that group easily.
John Hollinger (3:28 PM)
I'm amazed at how many people think Turkoglu is better than Vince Carter. Sorry, but there's no way. Carter is a better shooter, better scorer, better rebounder, better defender and, believe it or not, had a better Pure Point Rating than Turk last season. Nobody saw him because the Nets were terrible, but he had an All-Star caliber season. This is a massive upgrade.
The way I would judge this trade is simple. Turk is a great player and would be a great fit wherever he goes, but he's not that player that can put you over the top to win a championship, something I think Bosh will realize very soon. That's why I think it's ok the Magic didn't resign him. I think with a great team around him Vince could legitimately be the piece that puts the Magic over the top to win the title. Vince is a great shooter, can still take it to the hole, and isn't going to make the plays that will cause a team to lose. And to whoever said Carter cannot shoot with a defender in his face, now that he cannot simply just dunk on everyone in the league every time I watch him play it seems his bread and butter is shooting with a hand in his face so I'm not sure where that statement came from.