So which era had better players...now or back in the 97 season and below
and dont forget you werent getting the sissy calls back then and you could hand check
top players now
cause 60 % of old guys that you named are HOFs.... maybe in 15 years when wade,lebron,melo,bosh etc
retire we can discus it..... but i think that back in 90s players were far defensively skilled then now.... now superstars dont want to play d.... imagine guys like pippen,payton,ewing,jordan guarding todays superstars.... if lebron,wade,howard could dominate them then i think we can say that they are better...but we'll never know
With out a doubt
can you honestly say 60percent of the guys today will be hall of famers though?..there are some you can say that will..others who might but many more who will have good careers but seriously doubt they will be hall of famers
one reason i say back then is because players back then were skilled as well as being athletic. most players now are happy to just be athletic and add a lil skill
josh smith..he is very athletic but his skill level should be much higher right now. he should be doing what d.wilkins was doing by now
To be honest, there are alot more guys playing now that are just as good, if not better, than the older guys you have listed if they were at the same stages.
i counted 10 guys who have been in the league for a few years now that already or will be hall of fame players. they are:
Outlook good for
And where do we put Nash? Can a 2 time MVP not be in the Hall of Fame?
nope dont see it.. most of them guys had to do it against better d and hand checking. then if we bring in stats most have had multiply seasons of 17ppg or better.with other stars on there team.cant say the same about the players today
i agree with youre 10
go by each position and look at each positions players and numbers including fgpercentage since people determine how good you are by youre stats for the most part....check out rebounds by each position,steals,blks,ast and compare to now
Better basketball players: back then
Better Athletes: today
now you raised something interesting....name the top 10 athletes in the nba now
I'm not saying you're going to find guys that much more athletic then the Jordan's, Wilkins', and Drexler's -- just as an overall product I think today's players are more athletic
I don't think we ever saw a center as athletic as Dwight Howard or a pg as athletic as D Rose --- i'm not calling these guys the best at their positions, but as pure athletes I think they lead the pack
a few more names amongst the best athletes in today's game ...
people dont realize this Shaquille O’Neal is as physically gifted as any player to ever step foot on an NBA court.
He revolutionized the game, centers used to be nice guys, finesse players
Then Shaq came along at 300+ pounds and started dunking like Shawn Kemp at 300 pounds.
Now all of a sudden you see guys called the next Shaq (Dwight Howard)
and Shaq at guard (Lebron)
and even Dwyane Wade is like 210 lbs with a 39 inch vertical.
A lot (not all) of the top players are bulkier nowadays.
I think that's why the pace of the game has slowed down a little bit, its more about getting to the foul line more than ever with no hand checking.
It used to be about getting the best shot as quickly as possible, and teams had more balance.
Nowadays the stronger and more athletic you are (Lebron, Derrick Rose) the no hand check rule makes you (almost) unguardable in certain situations.
more athleticsm bcuz the no hand check rule means you can drive the lane anytime you want if your handle is good enough.
Michael Jordan would have been even more unguardable.
Eventually I hope there is going to be a guy that makes people realize how silly the hand check rule really is.
All it takes it the right combo of athleticism and skills like handles and eventually Chances are someone will put it together.
Picture a more athletic Tyreke Evans with a jumper and no hand check rule. I'm saying it could happen lol.
There have def been athletic PG's like rose; Penny Hardaway and Kevin Johnson??
The 10 best athletes now in no true order:
i have not read everybodys posts, but i find a few things about quincey's list off. Webber easily played hi best career ball after 97. He was drafted in 93 but was an mvp caliber player in the 2000-2003 stretch with the kings. Horace grant was a role player, if you add him, then there are a ton of guys you could add to the modern day list. Then there are just a bunch of guys you left off completely. I mean if horcae grant gets in, why not zach randolph. He is far better player then grant was. And where is jason kidd and allen iverson and ray allen for taodays era? Are you just taking this seasons players and comparing it with all of the 1992-1997?
Either way, i said before and i'll say it again. The game evolves. Players get better. The league gets deeper. My first year watching the nba in 1992, Sedale threat led the lakers in scoring with 15 points a game and that team made the playoffs. The suns went to the title that year, and Barkley was the only guy on that team would be a star in todays game. KJ would be devin harris 2.0. Majerle would be simialar to quentin richardon. And mark west, oliver miller, richard dumas, frank johnson, and old danny ainge and tom chambers would have trouble making roster spots.
I know that's just one example, but i could go on for days giving examples.
also, i think you guys over blow the whole hand check rule. You were allowed as a defender to put one hand on your opponent below the numbers around the waist. You could not put 2 hands or grab him or push him or do a whole heck of a lot more then you can today. WIth players getting faster and more athletic, that one hand on your hip wont do you much good. Kobe, lebron and wade would eat you for lunch if you get that close.
tom chambers= tyler hansbrough with athleticism aka Blake Griffin
troy murphy with athleticsm= all star = tom chambers
they couldnt make a roster spot, lol that is a generalization based off race, and ricky rubio is not a better shooter than Danny Ainge
take that as food for thought, that is nihilism to think that Tom Chambers wouldnt be a first round pick esp in this weak butt draft.
Tom Chambers = 6'10 David Lee with three Point range
i said old tom chambers when he was on the 92-93 suns. The guy who scored like 10 a game off the bench. I think you are confusing him with the younger all star chambers. And tom never ever had a jumper like murphy. But yes, tom was all-star back then. Not in todays game. He offense consisted of being an explosive athlete that could run the court. But in half court situations, he was nothing too special. Not nearly the shooter you seem to remember.
a player nowadays would be suspended for rest of playoffs/season
WIth players getting faster and more athletic, that one hand on your hip wont do you much good. Kobe, lebron and wade would eat you for lunch if you get that close.
do you have any proof? nope
another person could argue that Jordan would average 50 today, with these rules,
tome entire career of 13 seasons, he hit 220 threes at a 31% clip. Not exactly troy murphy caliber there.
toms entire career of 13 seasons, he hit 220 threes at a 31% clip. Not exactly troy murphy caliber there.
your right, i have no proof that the hand check would be not very efective. And you have no proof that it would. ANd showing one video of one of the most famous dirty fouls ever doesnt not mean that was common. Get real, i watched countless tapes of the 80's that was far from normal.
but i give you credit for one thing, tom chambers was a more athletic version of tyler hansbrough. That is a spot on comparison.
and metatrondadon, i just saw where you said on another post that you are 19 years old. How you gonna tell me about how dirty the league was before you were even born? Unless you watched the game back when it had the hand check rule and personally eveluated how it impacted games, im gonna take my opinion over yours anyday.
wont do you much good?..have you every played basketball?..that one hand helps tremendously. kobe (our heroe..lol) talked about it before on how much easier it would be to defend a guy if he was able to use his hand
and how is kevin johnson devin harris 2.0?...kj averaged 20plus and 10 plus for a couple of years. devin did it..once
and i left out a couple of players because they could fit in either catagory..basically since some people are young on here and either werent born in 95 or being about 3 there era would start lets say.....2004 when some are 10 -15 years old
and metra tom chambers was much better then tyler.. they arent comparable..tom had a jumper out to three as well as a lil handles and bounce how does that sound anything like tyler? i cant get into great detail about him because i caught him more towardas the end of his prime because i was young
and llperez22 you cant really take MetatronDaDon's opinion seriously because he wasnt even born during most of these players prime years and was maybe 5 when they were about to retire
Jordan averagin 50 points a game in this era... come on....exaggerating a bit....Jordan is better then Kobe defensively and offensively...but not by that much...
in 97 there were more established players who are undoubtedly legends.....but ask this question in 5 years and it will probably be today's players.....it really all depends on Lebron's decision making this summer because he has a 50/50 shot of becoming better than Jordan ever was....probably better than that actually....
If you are gonna make up a list of players, at least try and keep it coparable so it doesn't show your bias. When you add horace grnt and leave out zach or you add mullin but leave out vince carter then come up with a list that looks like there are a lot more players from back in the day, well that's not very acurate.
As for hte hand check, a lot of players used it back in the day because they were not as quick defensively. There is no doubt in my mind that players move their feet and are quicker in todays game, so that cancels out hand checking in my book.
Another thing, is this whole name dropping thing does not entirely add up to the previous argument we had over this subject, because my main point before was not talking about the elite players or the best of the ebst. I was reffering to the bottom half the league and how there are so many more guys capable of making plays in todays game that dont get minutes. Washington dumps their squad, and guys like blatche and young come in. I didn't see much of that in the past. Most guys off the becnh were nothing more then role players.
As for the devin harris vs KJ comparison, you cant just go by stats. Watching them actually play, are you gonna tell me that KJ was flat out better? His jumper was even more off then harri's which is really saying somehting. And when KJ dunked, everyone would go ape $hit because pg's rarely dunked on bigs back then. Now it's common and people dont get nearly as caught up in the athleticism from little guys.
I never said the league was dirty, you said that,
I just implied the suspensions were lighter. lol
and I record and edit games in which Magic Johnson (as a hobby lol)
So I probably know more about the game than quncey tries to discredit me for. All I'm saying is that ppl say the league scoring went up bcuz of the no hand check rule.
I really dont care Mike DÁntoni says it makes for a more entertaining brand of basketball (guard play) irdc for it.
in my opinion, hand checking is a big deal if you are not very fast. Defenders need it to get an advantage and offensive players hate it becasue they dont have any sepreration and it slows down their first step. But if you watch games back then there were plenty of players who would back off their oppnent all the way out to three. It didn't get physical until they got into the lane. The fact that you have more 3 point shooters today who can also put it on the floor doesn't allow you to play off or get up too tight.
Like I said, you put a hand on wade, lebron, or kobe and get up that close(which happens quite often anyways), and they are gonna get a foul or get by you on the regular.
yeah i can say he was falt out better without looking at stats. kj could pass very well as well as score. its not even close when youre comparing one player who has had multiple 20ppg 10ast seasons on good teams compared to a guy who did that only once on a bad team...thats not even really a fair arguement....and vince wasnt included because he could fall into 2 different eras which is a reason shaq or duncan might not have been included or rasheed. and zach wasnt included because i forgot to include him.
back to devin..hes had one season where he was really talked about or played very well. how can you compare that to kj?..thats liek me saying brad daurgthy and brook lopez is the same because of one season lopez had when brad has had many seasons like that. if kobe had ok seasons untill this year and this year had a mvp season could i really compare him to jordan when jordan has had many seasons liek that?..liek i said thats not even a fair arguement
as far as hand checking..maybe in highschool or rec leauge you might have a good point but i doubt it.. playing at a high levelits a very big difference which is a reason they took it out of the nba so players could score more and teams could score more because thats what fans want. matter of fact jordan mentioned it as well..maybe the fans dont think it makes a difference but clearly players KNOW it makes a difference. people who experience it have a tad more input on that then peopel who just watch it
to say hand checking isn't a big deal here or there is retarded.....but the main point is that it SHOULD be illegal....it is contact by a defender that affects an offensive player's progress....the dictionary definition of a foul....
i dont think kj puts up thos same stats if he plays today. Just mentioning stats is the whole point of our argument. I think players from yesterday were not as good thus their stats would be different if they played today. If this was stircitly a lets compare stats argument, then yes kj is better. KJ played in an era were he was one of the fastest and most ahtletic pgs in the game. He would fit right in todays game, not stand out in any way.
and again, If webber, vince, iverson, ray allen all played their best ball in the 2000's, not sure how they can fit in either era. That's like saying karl malone should fit in todays era since he played just six years ago and won his only mvp after 1997.
As for hand checking, i watched the games. Its not like they were straight up mugging guys on the court all over the place. They werent just grabbing and shoving each other. A lot of players talk about it because it is taboo to talk bad against the former legends and players of the past. Of course guys from the earlier days are gonna talk about how they played before the hand check rule and it was so much tougher then. And younger guys are gonna show respect and say yeah i didn't play then those guys had it rough, when in fact im sure dwight and cp3 and lebron are really thinking put nick andersen or bryon russel on me and let em put a hand on me. Ill bust their ass up all night.
which is why i always bring up fans dont know. there was awhhhhhhhole lot of grabbing and shoving. my brother used to tell me about it all the time when he was in lakers vet camp. vanexl used to talk to my brother about it. joe stephens, donnie boyce( brothers teammates )talked about it all the time. i was like you before i listened to them thinking there wasnt much grabbing and shoving because i didnt see it. nick is the one who told me about the plyers getting hit in the balls while trying to post up at least 5 times a game. elbows, kicks to the shin, grabbing jerseys, you dont realize how dirty the game really was whihc i cant fauly you because if my brother had never gotten that far i wouldnt have known either. its one thing to say what you think a player would say but quite another to actually know what the real deal was...one of my brothers friend who played in a couple eras (toney massenburg) says all the time how the game kept getting easier and easier because the leauge didnt want players to get hurt with allt he rough stuff because players were starting to get in the weight room more and that would hurt the nba's product if they kept allowing the things they did because there stars would start getting hurt more
well, as for what era had better overall talent, i guess we just disagree.
i agree that we disagree....i dont mind as long as its with someone who was actually old enough to remember the era or alive
and for the record, there were a ton of players from the mid 90's that would be great today including ewing, robinson, malone, jordan, barkley, olajuwon, payton, drexler, pippen, pre injury hill and penny and many others. Im not hating on the 90's players at all. I just think the game has evolved and the standard that those players set raised the bar for todays game just like i think the players in the 90's improved because of guys in the 80's and guys in the 80's improved because of guys in the 70's. I don't see with players around the world improving and the highschool guys getting into aau ball younger and the way jordan raised the bar for everyone, the league taking a step backwards.
was '97 the year that Spree sat out for wringin PJ's neck lol????