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WALL/EVANS/ROSE statistical analysts

the lake show
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WALL/EVANS/ROSE statistical analysts

When John Hollinger debuted his new college PER this week, he revealed something statistical analysts who follow both the NCAA and the NBA have noticed for a while now: John Wall's statistics aren't all that great.

Wall arrived at Kentucky as the sure No. 1 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft and proceeded to blow away the hype with his highlight-reel heroics, all the while leading the Wildcats to a No. 1 seed. But it is fellow freshman DeMarcus Cousins, not Wall, who has posted the nation's best PER and was in the discussion for Basketball Prospectus' prestigious Player of the Year Award. Meanwhile, granting that the list was heavily biased toward players in lower conferences, Wall did not rank in the PER top 100.

Looking at his stat line, there are a few obvious explanations for why Wall looks relatively weak by the numbers. Foremost among these is turnovers. While the proneness to miscues of Ohio State's superstar Evan Turner has drawn attention because of his tendency to pile them up in individual games (10 apiece in a loss to North Carolina at Madison Square Garden in the 2K Sports Classic and Saturday's overtime win over Illinois in the semifinals of the Big Ten Tournament), Wall has turned the ball over more frequently as a percentage of the possessions he has used--23.6 percent to Turner's 21.1 percent.

Second, Wall isn't yet an effective outside shooter. He's made just 31.3 percent of his three-point attempts and could stand to improve from the free throw line, where he attempts nearly seven shots a night but makes them at a 76.9 percent clip.

More surprising are a couple of areas where Wall's athleticism hasn't yet translated into results. Despite the ability to finish off the glass from a variety of improbable angles, Wall isn't yet great around the rim. That and poor shooting on long twos explains why Wall's two-point percentage of 50.5 percent is nothing spectacular. Wall also isn't the kind of presence on the glass you'd expect from a player with his size and explosiveness. He's grabbed 6.3 percent of all available rebounds, which is below average for a point guard.

Of course, Wall has his strengths by the numbers as well. His 33.9 assist rate is outstanding and ranks him 33rd in the nation, and Wall's ability to get to the free throw line on a regular basis has boosted his True Shooting Percentage. Naturally, the success enjoyed by the youthful Wildcats also speaks well to Wall's leadership from the point.

To better gauge Wall's NBA potential, let's compare him to a pair of obvious peers--his predecessors playing point guard for John Calipari, Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans. The No. 1 overall pick, Rose won Rookie of the Year in 2008-09, and Evans seems well on his way to joining him. Here's how their NBA translations (which account for strength of schedule) looked compared to Wall entering the NCAA Tournament in a variety of key metrics.

Player Usg TS% Reb% Ast% TO% FTA% Win%
---------------------------------------------------------
Wall .189 .472 .053 .075 .217 .111 .393
Rose .192 .476 .073 .067 .168 .112 .426
Evans .240 .446 .093 .056 .187 .091 .405
The similarity between the numbers posted by Wall and Rose is pretty remarkable. Rose was a better rebounder in college and turned the ball over less frequently, but Wall has demonstrated superior ability to set up his teammates, both in terms of assist numbers and the court vision he's flashed this season. Evans was a slightly different player--more of a go-to player on offense but less of a passer, befitting the debate over whether he is really a point guard or a shooting guard--but his overall performance was relatively similar to Wall's.

In the cases of both Evans and Rose, the numbers underestimated their ability to star from day one in the NBA. Rose's numbers have continued to lag his hype as a pro, but he still easily outplayed that projection, while Evans has posted 6.3 WARP this season, tops among all rookies. It's possible that Calipari's dribble-drive motion offense, despite enjoying phenomenal success at the team level, is somehow holding these players back, at least statistically.

A more likely explanation in my opinion is that by using nearly a decade's worth of NCAA-to-NBA translations, the translation system doesn't realize how much more capable young point guards are of playing well in the modern NBA. Because the league has put such a premium on quickness and ability to create off the dribble since the rules reinterpretations prior to the 2004-05 season, the painful learning curve rookie point guards once had to go through may no longer exist.

The success enjoyed by his predecessors is a good reason not to worry about Wall's relatively pedestrian statistics. He also still has time to improve them during the NCAA Tournament. That's what Rose did two years ago, saving his best basketball for the month of March as Memphis advanced to the championship game before falling to Kansas. Already, Wall's numbers are better than they were a week ago thanks to a solid SEC Tournament.

If there's one downside to Wall's statistics, I think it's that they fail to provide justification for the notion that he is a once-in-a-generation prospect. To rise to that level, he'd have had to significantly outplay Rose and Evans. But if those two players provide a template for Wall's future, it is a bright one indeed.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1004


the lake show
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John Wall

Personally, I'll put Wall before Evans and Rose. Wall is more of a true point than Evans and more a vocal leader than Rose. Evans compensate thanks to his offensive talent but could improve his outside shooting. Rose must work on his outside shoooting as well, bit above all, be a real point and not jus a scoring point.

www.weballin.net

the lake show
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you can learn to be vocal

you can learn to be vocal and dont really have to be vocal in order to be real good or great (ala duncan). id take rose over wall and think rose will be better as well as evans as far as scoring but as far as being a pg i thinkwall will be better. youre right he is more of a passer then those 2

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John Wall is the Best!

I've been watching college basketball for a long time and I think John Wall may be the greatest talent I ever saw play PG. He's only 19 years old and far from a finished product, but his upside is virtually limitless.

Note
-------
I realize people read fast and don't always observe exactly what was written, so please read the following.

I'm not saying Wall is the most accomplished point guard in NCAA history, just the most physically talented. As you know, there can be a wide gap between talent and achievement.

In addition to his natural talent, he's very smart, he has an incredible feel for the game, and he has the ability to rise to the occasion when it really counts. He is this year's equivalent of Blake Griffin in 2009, the best player on the draft board, bar none.

the lake show
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not sure who the greatest

not sure who the greatest college pg i ever saw but id have to say its gary payton and jason kidd. probably payton.. i have never seen a pg dominate with passing scoring and defense

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and while telling who ever

and while telling who ever is checking him, about it.. didnt know who he was at first untill my older brother kept talking about him....and while driving midrange or hitting the deep three

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Greatest point guard you've

Greatest point guard you've ever seen? And you're an old guy. Wow...

the lake show
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i must have had a brain fart

i must have had a brain fart because i forgot to add jason williams. didnt like duke but damn that williams had no weaknesses... how did you want it..from 3?..midrange?..tear drop?...drive?..defense?..vocal?..strong body?..bounce?..

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I liked J Williams

I hate duke but i loved Jay Williams he was an incredible College Basketball player and he did have one weakness his freethrows for someone that shot the ball as good as him he was a terrible freethrow shooter. Career 67% freethrow shooter.

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Tezo83 on John Wall and RTBT

Tezo83, you're right on both accounts. I'm an old guy and John Wall is the most talented college PG I ever saw. Tezo, I tried to think of someone who had more talent but I couldn't think of anyone. And the real scary part is the fact that he's only a freshman.

Note: I'm not talking about accomplishments, just sheer physical talent and the ability to control a game with that talent.

In addition, as I mentioned above, he's very smart, he remains calm under pressure, his teammates look up to him, and he rises to the occasion in big games. He's just 19 and needs to improve several areas of his game, but his potential is limitless.

Although Aran Smith seems to think one can improve their quickness, I don't believe that. Either you have it or you don't. And basketball is essentially a game that places a premium on quickness and Wall has it to an extreme that's almost hard to believe.

If an NBA GM with the first choice doesn't select John Wall, he should be fired on the spot.

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Wall is no where near what

Wall is no where near what Rose is lol Rose was much stronger,faster and more aggressive then Wall is. Wall is overhyped in my opinion. I see him more as a Devin Harris type talent.

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yeah he must not have seen

yeah he must not have seen jason williams or gary payton. i think payton is still listed as the best pg of the modern era.. gotta go look it up to make sure

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6. Jay Williams (Duke, 2002)

6. Jay Williams (Duke, 2002) 21.3 ppg, 5.3 apg (3.7 tpg), 3.5 rpg, 2.2 spg, 46% FG, 108 3-FG

Unstoppable offensive talent, he led the Blue Devils to a 95-13 record and a National Championship. Winner of the AP, Wooden, Naismith, and Chevrolet Player of the Year Awards. Two-time Wooden Award finalist. Two-time ACC scoring leader. Final Four All-Tournament team selection.

5. Anfernee Hardaway (Memphis, 1993) 22.8 ppg, 6.4 apg (3.4 tpg), 8.5 rpg, 2.4 spg, 48% FG, 73 3-FG

Multi-dimensional offensive game and a premier rebounder. After sitting out freshman year due to Prop-48 ruling, he was honored as the Great Midwest Conference Player of the Year in both of his seasons on campus. One-time First-Team All-American selection and a finalist for the Wooden and Naismith Awards. Member of ESPN’s Conference USA Silver Anniversary Team.

4. Jameer Nelson (St. Joseph’s, 2004) 20.6 ppg, 5.3 apg (2.8 tpg), 3.0 spg, 48% FG, 73 3-FG

Controlled games both offensively and defensively during his senior year and led the Hawks to an undefeated regular season. AP, Naismith, Wooden, Rupp, Robertson, and Chevrolet Award winner as the College Player of the Year. Earned A-10 Player of the Week honors eight times during his senior season. One-time First-Team All-American selection. Member of ESPN’s A-10 Silver Anniversary Team.

3. Jason Kidd (California, 1994) 16.7 ppg, 9.1 apg (4.3 tpg), 6.9 rpg, 3.1 spg, 47% FG, 51 3-FG

There has never been a better passer or defender to play point guard at the college level. Only drawback is that he only played two seasons. First-Team All-American selection and led the nation in assists. He broke the Pac-10 steals record as a freshman and was the first sophomore to earned Pac-10 Player of the Year honors. Wooden Award finalist.

2. Bobby Hurley (Duke, 1993) 17.0 ppg, 8.2 apg (3.4 tpg), 2.6 rpg, 1.5 spg, 42% FG, 88 3-FG

Picture-perfect point guard is the NCAA’s all-time assist leader. Possibly the best player in NCAA Tournament history, he led Blue Devils to two NCAA Championships and three appearances in the final game. Winner of tournament’s Most Outstanding Player award and two-time member of All-Tournament Team. One-time First-Team All-American selection and one-time Third-Team All-American selection.

1. Gary Payton (Oregon State, 1990) 25.7 ppg, 8.1 apg (3.7 tpg), 4.7 rpg, 3.4 spg, 50% FG, 52 3-FG

Truly dominant lead guard with no weaknesses. Sports Illustrated College Player of the Year honoree. Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year. Led Beavers to one Pac-10 Championship, three 20-win seasons, three NCAA Tournament appearances, and one NIT appearance. Three-time All-Pac-10 selection and a member of the Pac-10 All-Decade Team. One-time First-Team All-American selection. Finished second on the NCAA all-time career assists and steals lists. All-time leading scorer in school history. Wooden Award runner-up.

arman
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i cant believe

how can you say wall is best pg eva.... i mean if you look at this quinceys list its clearly that wall doesnt deserve spot in there... all these guys were true leaders and they were carring their teams.... KU could win without wall.... and look at pennys,kidds or paytons stats.... they have more ass and they are way more versatile than wall..... i cant believe that some guy can say (and he is old enough to remember these guys) that wall is the best pg.....

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rmember he said the best he

rmember he said the best he has ever seen. he must not have seen these guys in college

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good post quincey

arman- 16.7 pts 6.5 asts 4.3 reb per game as a freshman are pretty damn good numbers, and they arent terribly off (besides Kidd and payton) especially given that 2 of those guys are definite HOF's in the NBA and one is the current starting PG for a top 5 team in the league. I mean, the hype is there, I still question how well he will be able to run the half court offense in the NBA but Wall is definitely deserving of the top pick

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i agree he does deserve the

i agree he does deserve the number one or 2 pick. it wouldnt be a shock if he go either. and although his numbers are good there have been other pg with the same or better overall numbers( there were a bunch of other pg on that list i only put up the top 4. jameer nelson was on there as well. my point wasnt to try to diminsh his accomplishemnts but to tell that guy that there have been better pg in college

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ya i was more refering to

ya i was more refering to arman saying that all those pg's are more versatile (as seniors...) and that UK could win all those games w/o wall. and quincey your post has the top 6 from that article, Jameer nelson and jay williams included.

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oh ok.. i thought i only put

oh ok.. i thought i only put the top 4

the lake show
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that article only included

that article only included the modern area. didnt include the older generation

arman
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dont change subject

he is no 1 pick but he isnt best college pg ever... he isnt even best player this year... i dont get all the hype ...

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I agree with rtbt

I agree with rtbt

the lake show
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its been proven in college

its been proven in college and nba/nfl that you can improve youre quickness. many players have shed time from there starting time can tell you that. ive gotten quciker through workouts as well as my nephew just to name some i have personal knowledge of. its no different then gaining more on youre vert. there are excercises and different things you can do to make youre muscles in youre leg stronger and make youre core stronger. i think most people who have never really trained for a sport or have talked to those who have wouldnt know that

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...

one can improve their quickness but only so much

like a 280 lb player is never gonna be as quick as a 180 lb player, strength and resistance training can maximize it.

But athletically everyone peaks, that means eventually they stop improving.

So assuming every top player is training as hard the next, then some players will always be faster than the next.

Like Shaq will never be as fast as Amare.

Tyreke Evans wont be as fast as Rose or wall in the open court, but evans is stronger in the half court.

Speed and strength and weight there is almost always a trade off

the lake show
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i dont think anyone

i dont think anyone questioned how much you can but if you can

rtbt
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Stats Aren't Everything

I don't have to look at stats to make that kind of judgment. I've been around a long time and never saw a PG with all of his attributes. He is not just quick, he's lightening quick. Going end to end, he's exceedingly fast, and he knows how to get his teammates involved. I don't think there's a human being on the planet who can stop J. Wall on defense.

Throw in the fact that he's very smart, unselfish, and admired by his teammates, and you have a rare gem. I don't ever remember looking at a PG in college who was so talented. When you watch him play, the young man always stands out as the best player on the court. He's only 19 and has some flaws, but he's so talented that it's almost scary. As a freshman, he hasn't even scratched the surface of what he can do with more experience.

As for the guys on the list, all of them were very good players. And two of them, Payton and Kidd were great players who proved it with very long and productive NBA careers. And it's obvious both of them had outstanding college careers and probably accomplished more than Wall.

I'm not taking anything away from Jason Kidd or Gary Payton because I could accept anyone saying either one of them was the greatest college PG ever. However, watching John Wall is very similar to watching Kobe Bryant in the NBA. You just know there's no way in the world anyone can stop him and he's only a freshman!

Once again, for those of you who don't take the time to read carefully, I'm not saying John Wall is as good as Kobe. However, at the collegiate level, he's unstoppable just as Kobe is in the NBA.

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rtbt

You just put John Wall in the same sentence as Kobe Bryant...

Statements like that are why John Wall is tremendously overrated to me, but I respect your opinion as always!

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...

You just put John Wall in the same sentence as Kobe Bryant...

1) Kobe is a shooting guard and John Wall is "billed" as a point guard,

2) he is the new "hybrid" pg 1/2 court vision 1/2 scoring mentality.

3) outside of Chris Paul last season(I think), not one point guard has contributed as many wins as a scoring wing like Dwyane Wade or Kobe Bryant, Lebron or Carmelo

4) Regardless of position

IN TERMS OF WINS; Top 10
-----
1 LeBron James, 29.2
2 Kevin Durant, 21.0
3 Dwyane Wade, MIA 21.8
4 Dwight Howard, 17.4
5 Kobe Bryant, LAL 15.7
6 David Lee, 15.7
7 Chris Bosh, 15.4
8 Tim Duncan, 15.5
9 Dirk Nowitzki, 14.8
10 Carmelo Anthony, 14.5
---

The shortest player on here is Dwyane Wade, last season Chris Paul a 4 year vet and someone who has never been mistaken for a combo guard had 28.4 wins per game.

Steve Nash contributed 10.4 wins last season overall.

The point being is you need good teammates to win and John Wall is no different than other PGs.

The chances for John Wall (6'4) at best to impact the game as much as Kobe Bryant is very low. In terms of wins that is. Maybe he revitalizes a fan base who knows.:P
---

EDIT: As a slasher I dont see him taking over games during an 82 game season playing end-2-end ball.
"Thats okay if you play 15 mpg, but eventually you have to take a jump shot."---anonymous

rtbt
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John Wall and Kobe Bryant

Hey guys, please read what I wrote. I wasn't saying John Wall is as good as Kobe Bryant or as accomplished. Please note that we're talking ONLY about a FEELING I have when I watch them play. Nothing more and nothing less.

I said, "watching John Wall is very similar to watching Kobe Bryant in the NBA." That's right. When I watch Kobe Bryant it's obvious he's the best player on the court and nobody can stop him.

When I watch John Wall in COLLEGE, I have the same feeling. He's obviously the best player on the court and I don't think anybody can stop him.

MetatronDaDon, you're talking about NBA players, the positions they play, and their accomplishments. That wasn't the area of the game I was addressing. I said John Wall is the most talented college PG I ever saw. There was nothing in that statement about accomplishments. I went on to spell out why I felt that way.

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...

but in a lot of cases that has little no bearing on how good you will be in the NBA.

certain things in the NBA are transferable, and John Wall being able to slash into the lane anytime he wants i dont know

His greatest asset is his slashing ability, an ability usually reserves for 2s and 3s.

Can a slashing 1 be as effective as a slahing 2?

Scouts says His upside if he learns to shoot hell be unguardable, but they say that about everybody nowadays

and it doesnt translate into wins like a traditional PG like Chris Paul or Deron Williams or even Steve Nash
---

In general Wins are not easy to come by in the NBA and PGs do not generate as much wins on average as other bigger players who can draw fouls at a higher rate.

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MetatronDaDon on College vs the NBA

MetatronDaDon, if you're saying the amount of talent and/or style one has in college may not translate to the NBA, I have to agree. There were many guys who very successful at the collegiate level but their game wasn't suitable for the next level.

But if we're talking about John Wall, all bets are off. As I repeatedly said in this thread, he's clearly the most physically talented college PG I ever saw. He's lightening quick, unbelievably fast going end to end, he shows up at big games, he's in command of his team, and he's very smart. Throw in the fact that he's only 19 years old and his game is still evolving. Therefore, I believe his potential is almost unlimited.

In my opinion, John Wall is a can't miss future NBA star. There's only one other can't miss star in this year's draft and that's Evan Turner.

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...

@rtbt

I think BOTH will be "unstoppable" as well, but an "unstoppable" PG doesnt always lead to wins.

They also have to get stops on defense and when its all said and done: Lebron, Wade, and Durant are

can Wall guard Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, Dwight Howard?

can Turner guard Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, Dwight Howard

I think people take the term "franchise" player to lightly, their are elite players, but a lot of them are interchangeable.

and very few point guards have as big an impact in terms of WINS compared to their bigger counterparts,

basically its a big mans game, if not on offense then on defense. You can expect John Wall and Evan Turner to slash their way to victory

but in the end I'll take Lebron with the rock over either of those two.

I dont see those two "NCAA NPOY" candidates wresting too many "NBA MVP" votes from Anthony, Lebron, Howard, Bryant, Wade, etc. etc.

In summary I don't think their dominance will translate, upside doesnt win games, it gets coaches fired

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lol..cant be stopped??..wall

lol..cant be stopped??..wall hasnt been this unstoppable player every game..getting 15-20 points doesnt make u unstoppable. gary payton couldnt be stopped in college. john wall isnt even close top as good as payton was his last yera in college. ...and thats without even looking at stats.. johns wall on the college level as unstoppable as kobe...lol..thats laughable.

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What started as a good topic

What started as a good topic as turned into one silly a$$ article.

1) If your gonna compare Wall/Evans/Rose, just put their stats up! None of that damn PER shyt

2)ONE, I repeat ONE person said Wall was the most PHYSICALLY gifted PG ever, and you &$#%#&@! have digresses into arguing if he is the best college PG ever. Apples and oranges. READ people, read.

3) Its no coincidence that the guys u say are the best COLLEGE PG's ever just happened to be all stars in the NBA. Thats called revisionist history. You guys ar e lookng at NBA all stars and THEN back tracking their college careers and saying 'SEE, he was great all along' Its not accurate.

No one mentions Mateen Cleaves, Kenny Anderson, Marbury, TJ Ford, etc.

U know why?, b/c they werent as good in the NBA. But in COLLEGE, they were every bit as good as Kidd, Payton, etc.

In my lifetime ive seen Felipe Lopez hyped just as much as Lebron, so spare me w/ all this shyt about how great you just KNOW somebody will be. Mike Bibby was a #2 pick

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ummmm which one of them were

ummmm which one of them were ever as good as payton in college?..exclude the nba and just look at how gary payton played in college Mateen Cleaves, Kenny Anderson, Marbury, TJ Ford...not one of those guys were as good as payton in college and thats excluding the nba

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s2jepeka on Reading the Posts

s2jepeka, thank you so much for pointing that out. People either don't read or they're in such a hurry, they go so fast, that they miss what is actually written. They make comments on what they think they saw as opposed to what was actually in the post.

You were so right. I simply made a comment and then explained why I think John Wall is the most physically talented PG I ever saw. I also pointed there can be a huge discrepancy between talent and achievement. And as you pointed out, people remembered the lengthy careers of several NBA point guards and assumed they were also a great college PG.

But either way, they were talking about career achievements as opposed to physical talent.

As for stats, they can be very deceiving. In terms of John Wall, he's playing on a team where at least 3, and possibly 4 teammates, will play in the NBA. That means he doesn't have to carry the load. In addition, he's very unselfish and appears to put the team first. If John Wall played on another team with less talent, his scoring totals would be significantly higher.

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Not a Fan of J. Wall

I am not a john wall fan he is a good player like I have been saying but I guess I am missing what every body else is seeing and I have see a lot of his games this year. He turns the ball over too much he is sometimes out of control and he doesnt have the greatest jumpshot. I will give him this though he is fast and he can get to the rim but he is not one of the best PG's that I have ever see he is an above average college PG. How that relates to the NBA we wont know until he gets there. Somebody answer me this if some of the PG's that have left early would have actually stayed in school would he be mentioned as one of the top now compared to them.

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exactly im talking about

exactly im talking about about payton in college..6'4 fast and strong..jason williams college and im not talking about stats im talking about how the players played when i WATCHED THEM. both players were better then wall. williams played with 2 or 3 other lotto picks as well as won a title

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GP had a GREAT senior year

GP had a GREAT senior year that is unrivaled.

But for his first 3 years he avg. 12, 14, and 20 points, respectively, with basically 8 assists each year.

Kenny Anderson, Marbury, Iverson, and Jay Williams all played with NBA players, stayed less years, and put up equal or better numbers than Payton (except that senior year).

I'll give you Cleaves and Ford, but the players above were just as good, with better teams.

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but we were comparing gp

but we were comparing gp freshman year..the comparisions was players ever not what they did as a freshman

rtbt
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Chicago1980 on John Wall

Chicago1980, John Wall clearly isn't even close to being the greatest PG in college basketball history. He only played one season and his immensely talented team underachieved. For a reference point, look at Magic Johnson who took Michigan State to the national title during his sophomore season.

And as many people pointed out, his stats at Kentucky were good but not great. So what do I see that makes me say he's the most gifted talent I ever saw at that position?

In addition to his natural talent, he's very smart, he has an incredible feel for the game, he has great court vision, and he has the ability to rise to the occasion when it really counts. He is not just quick, he's lightening quick. Going end to end, he's exceedingly fast, and he knows how to get his teammates involved. I don't think there's anyone in college basketball who can stay with J. Wall on defense.

Now the big question is whether that physical talent merits being the overall top draft choice and will he put it all together in the NBA. I for one say he will, and along with E. Turner, they are the only players in this draft I rate as "can't miss".

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Good Points rtbt

Real good points rtbt I just dont see it from watching his games. like I stated before he is a good college PG and I think he will have a solid NBA career but I dont think he is the type of guy that can turn a franchise around. But hey he is only 19.

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the same thing you just said

the same thing you just said about wall in the second paragraph can be said about payton and jason williams..i recall dickie v even saying he was the second best pg in the world behind jason kidd. its one thing to say the best freshman pg every but another to say the best pg ever when he clearly isnt. payton was a better defener better court vision with less talent around him to get assist. btter midrange,deep,finisher..no one would stop him and thats with the defenses singling in on him.. jason did what wall did and more with other lotto pics on his team just like wall and was also a better defender midrange, deep

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@Quincey

@Quincey

that's why I put unstoppable in quotes:

1) these guys would be "unstoppable" IF they could make the jumper

why? bcuz they can get a shot anytime they want with their handle/size etc.

2) "unstoppable" bcuz they still cant defend all 5 positions and do it without fouling, all players are stoppable if you get them in foul trouble

In addition to his natural talent, he's very smart, he has an incredible feel for the game, he has great court vision, and he has the ability to rise to the occasion when it really counts.He is not just quick, he's lightening quick. Going end to end, he's exceedingly fast, and he knows how to get his teammates involved. I don't think there's anyone in college basketball who can stay with J. Wall on defense.

Magic Johnson:
In addition to his natural talent (6'8 with handle and passing is talent check)

he's very smart,
(Magic Johnson was big but he wasn't dumb) check

he has an incredible feel for the game,
(Magic Johnson was 6'8 and knew when to fast break, when to look to score, when to facilitate;) check
he has great court vision,
7 apg, Magic to Kelser, home run baseball pass=court vision. CHECK

and he has the ability to rise to the occasion when it really counts.
note to rtbt, Magic Johnson has an NCAA trophy, he rose to the occasion

He is not just quick, he's lightening quick. Going end to end, he's exceedingly fast, and he knows how to get his teammates involved. I don't think there's anyone in college basketball who can stay with J. Wall on defense.

MAgic Johnson was Evan Turner athletically, but he was also taller, so the double-teams came a little quicker and he would dish off accordingly.

Wall is so fast that by the time he is trying to shoot he cant adjust to a pass, he's either going to score or he's not.

he scores better than Magic with end-to-end speed, but Magic got double teamed faster on the fastbreak and so he involved his teammates better.

Not to mention that he could see over the defense better than Wall. It's really no contest as to who is really "unstoppable" when comparing Turner, Wall, and Magic.
---

Magic Johnson was just more efficient on the college level than either Wall or Turner.

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many players could be

many players could be considered unstoppable if they had a jumper. if they had a jumper chances are they wouldnt be as good at driving because they have a jumper...guys that drive are so good at it because there jumper isnt dependable..guys that have a real good jumper usually are so good at it because they arent that great at driving

rtbt
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MetatronDaDon on Magic

MetatronDaDon, I don't understand why you are pointing out Magic's attributes to me. I said it earlier in this thread and I've said it many times on this website, Magic is the greatest point guard I ever saw period. His basketball IQ was off the charts, he saw the court better than any of his peers [except maybe Bird], and he thoroughly understood the components of teamwork. His record of accomplishments speak for themselves.

If you didn't know before, now you know how I feel about Magic. Yes he was 6 ft 9 and strong as a bull. However, Magic couldn't jump and I would hardly classify him as quick or fast. In a league dominated by incredible athletes, I always said the greatest players of the eighties were two guys who could barely jump or run [relatively speaking], Magic and Bird.

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...

@QUINCEY

^EXACTLY^

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"So what do I see that makes

"So what do I see that makes me say he's the most gifted talent I ever saw at that position?"

Magic couldn't jump and I would hardly classify him as quick or fast.

John Wall cant post up. In the halfcourt he will have to slash off the pick and roll a lot (my prediction).

Magic could just run the motion offense get into position and score off a drop step.

You can say that Magic was not as gifted as Wall, but height advantage is a gift. And actually a lot of people say that John Wall takes after Jason Kidd a guy who modeled his game after Magic.

U cant just discredit Magic Johnson and then say Evan Turner is a cant miss prospect, when both of these guys are

in terms of shot selection,

Magic Johnson-lites

for all his lack of speed Magic Johnson averaged 20ppg, he got to the spots he wanted and scored, so there.

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@rtbt this is like Shaq

@rtbt

this is like Shaq (younger version) versus Dwight Howard (current version)

1 player is faster more athletic (Wall), another is bigger and stronger (Shaq), same shot selection,

varying opinions on who had more natural talent at the position.

hard to argue but I'll just let the college #s speak for themselves, (Magic had more boards)

rtbt
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MetatronDaDon, You're Confusing Me

I know Magic was fantastic, he was the greatest PG I ever saw. But it was interesting that you posted a highlight of Magic going end to end in an All Star game where nobody plays defense. What does that prove?

And yes I agree, height and strength are indeed part of having natural talent. But basketball is primarily a game of quickness and speed. So if I had to choose between height & strength versus quickness & speed, I would go with the latter.

Therefore, someone like John Wall, who is quicker than lightning, and extremely fast going end to end, should be classified as a great physical talent. [LOL]

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