NCAA Tournament Graduation Rates
knicksfan- i think you are overstating the value of an education a little by saying things like "you are nothing without an education" or mentioning how getting a good job through your parents just equals being lazy. I know plenty of people who are very hard workers and have done very well for themselves without college.
I worked in construction for 7 years, and needless to say there were not too many guys with degrees on job sites. But I and many others were able to buy a house and do well for ourselves without college.
llperez22- Okay, I can say I overstated an education a little bit there sorry was thinking of what Jesus Shuttlesworth said to ESPN in He Got Game (you mentioned Hoop Dreams, so I'll mention the next best thing, lol. Great Movie by the way, I saw it for the first time a month ago, and want to watch it again in the near future.) Though, the other statement I said about kids being lazy from there parents, I didn't mean it like that I meant more that it isn't teaching the right thing necessarily and should depend on the situation, that is what I should've have said before.
your right. Its hard to lump everyone together though, but giving your kid a job if he doesnt work hard and deserve it defenitely promotes laziness from the kid. But if the kid busts his butt and does the job like he is supposed to, then there is nothing wrong with how he got there.
more then a game- great basketball movies
MetatronDaDon, I'm back. I was an Anthropology and Sociology major so I'm tuned into social issues. I love college basketball but I detest the underlying negative social aspects of the sport.
Anyway MetatronDaDon, I answered this question earlier, but since you asked, I'll post it again.This is a discussion about a university system that continues to ignore the pathetic graduation rates of young black men, but has no shame in using those very same young men to win basketball games. One their athletic eligibility has expired, they don't care any more. As I stated above, those institutions that do such, and their head coaches, are perpetuating a racist system. They care a lot more about wins and losses than they do about the economic future of the athletes.
Thank goodness for schools like Georgetown, Xavier, Western Kentucky, and Indiana when Bobby Knight was coach. Those schools create a culture where education is number one. If you don't study and stay on pace to graduate, you don't play. They are excellent basketball schools where a failure to graduate is the exception, not the rule. There is no reason on earth why we can't do this through the NCAA.
Black female athletes, who come from the same high schools, families, and neighborhoods as their male counterparts who don't excel in the classroom, prove every year that basketball and academic achievement can co-exist.
Unfortunately most people are just like the school administrators who look the other way. They only care about the game, who wins and who scores x number of points. They really don't care about the young men people playing. But we can change the culture, but only do if people like Quincey and others stop making excuses and demand that we place just as much importance on education as we do on sports.
Rtbt, you're a smart guy, not doubting that. I do agree I don't like some of the underlying negative social aspects. Though, if you read some of my previous posts, you have to look at that individual's background as well. Also, for the schools you mention there president's aren't afraid to fire a guy who wins, but doesn't graduate. If Bob Huggins coached at Georgetown he would be fired within 3 years because he does not see graduating players as a priority rather winning basketball games, which I don't have a problem with, but of a guy with his experience would like to see him encourage his players to stay in school and graduate. College though is a business, and it takes the coaches who care about the players to be on them, not that institution itself, they only care about dollar signs.
what excuses?..i gave reasons just liek everyone else so please tell me how they are excuses?...you need to open up youre mind and realize there are reasons for the way things are and not just dismiss them as excuses. you say its laziness but thats the only reason you aknowledge while everyone else on here including me aknowledge that as one reason but pointed out other reasons that you call excuses
If you're talking to me, please stop making up distortions. I never once said anyone was LAZY. Those were your words. Go back and read my posts and see if you can find the adjective "lazy" in any of them.
I said school administrators, coaches, and the players all emphasize basketball and as a result, academics are not a priority. You in turn make all kinds of excuses as to why the male players can't do well in school. I in turn pointed out that many male, black athletes at schools such as Georgetown and Xavier have close to a 100% graduation rate because the school and coaches make education a top priority.
And finally, I pointed out that black female basketball players, who are from the same families, schools, and neighborhoods as their male counterparts, excel academically. You don't hear about the women coming up with same set of excuses you posted earlier.
I just read the whole post
u called him undercover racist, I read the whole post and I think he is misinformed.
@rtbt (who isnt Online at the moment telling from his Icon)
Those young women grow up in the same families, neighborhoods, and attended the same schools as their male counterparts, yet unlike the men, they excel in school.
That is a very, very broad assumption, but given that the African American women come from the same families, neighborhoods.
Lets say that Anthony Carter and Lisa Leslie are brother and sister, assuming both have the EXACT same chance of playing in the NBA
and both are in college at the same time which
and their dad just got arrested for who knows what, who should drop out and support the family while the other pursues their hoops dream
my point is that basically if anything pops up the male has to become the head of the family and this is not always the case for African American females
I mean how many times have you heard of a female college player selling drugs or contraband as opposed to a male college player doing something like that?
Its GEnder Roles in my opinion.
How do you know that the African American female in college has the same socioeconomic background and expectations to succeed in their sport as the male.
Do You ever hear about female dropping out to support their family?
@DaDon great points. Though, I must say that the reason we don't hear it is because the general public does not care about women athletics at all unless it were something drastic like a woman player selling drugs. If a woman player is academically ineligible it may go on the espn ticker, but not much more.
llperez22, I'm not in any way saying education is the only way to be successful. My father worked in a factory all of his life and he was my hero. He was one of the greatest men I ever knew.
But let's face it, if you want to succeed financially in America, the odds of succeeding are much higher if you have a college degree and a set of professional skills. There's no shame in not going to college like my son, who is currently an enlisted man in the U.S. Army. He didn't graduate from college but I still love and respect him.
However, there is shame in getting a college scholarship and letting it go to waste by taking Basketball 101 and 102, but nothing else.
you dont have to say the actual words. you say it by saying every reason i came up with as a excuse
rtbt I saw that a while ago and my computer messed up so my response was slow
I agree with some of it to a large extent
but from my perspective Males in college have different expectations than females in college
Some coaches dont prioritize the same way others do they have a family to support too.
But Im all for education, but some ppl dont know what they want to become as far as PLAN B is concerned.
By the time they figure it out sometimes its too late.
Knicksfan7, that was a great point about Bob Huggins and Georgetown. You're absolutely correct because the school administration ensures that education is a priority. John Thompson senior made sure his players graduated and his son is following in his footsteps. I don't know what the stats are at Georgetown but I heard they're very good. I know Xavier has a fantastic graduation rate because they too emphasize education.
rtbt, we have to understand a basketball coach is hired to win basketball games first and ensuring his player remain eligible, on track to graduate are after winning basketball games. If Bob Knight wasn't winning games at IU he would be fired no matter how great his graduation percentage was. While certain schools emphasize education on there athletes, they do want to see winning and competing for conference titles as well as national championships depending on the school. To me action needs to be taken by the school presidents to make sure they hire coaches who will be concerned with the wealth fare of graduating the players they recruit if they stay for 4 years on top of winning games.
its not too hard for gtown to have better stats because they have touger prereq's to even get in. youre not getting in unless you have good grades anyway while some schools you can be a low c student and get in
MetatronDaDon, thankfully you aren't coming from the same direction as Quincey who makes up facts, and transforms my emphasis upon education as somehow being racist. As I mentioned above, I think he's the racist. Anyone who thinks the current academic environment in college basketball is going well isn't living in the real world.
Once again, as I stated above, schools like Xavier, Georgetown, and Western Kentucky prove that major college basketball and academics are mutually compatible.
As for some of your other arguments above, I completely disagree, but at least you make intelligent points.
Hey Quincey, did you find the word "lazy" in any of my posts?
which facts were made up?
the fatc that some of us dont graduate because of
the facts that most white college basketball players parents make more then whites and they have more 2 parent homes?
tell me which of these facts are made up?
or that fact that 88percent of serial killers are white?
exactly knicks. you cant tell him that there are many reasons why these things are the way they are. reasons to him means excuses though
Quincey, you wrote this about me, "you say its laziness but thats the only reason you aknowledge....."
I challenged you to go back to every one of my posts on this subject and to see if you can find the word "lazy" even once. I know you can't because I never said it, that was your choice of words. You just made up that racist allegation about me. If that isn't making up facts I don't know what is.
I also challenge you to find one comment, just one, where I denigrated black people. It's truly unfortunate that you try to take my interest in education and turn into a racial attack.
you didnt have to say it. i gave you every other possible reason and you dismissed it as excuses. what other reasons could there be then?
you didnt have to say it. i gave you every other possible reason and you dismissed it as excuses. what other reasons could there be then?
Quincey, the quote I posted came from an NPR program I heard this afternoon. The report wasn't for all of college basketball, it was a study based on the 65 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament. It reflects the real world statistics at the major college basketball schools.
once again i dont see what youre point was of singling out blake basketball players....you never single out white players on here you just defend them everysingle time yet never post anything that puts white players in a bad light....why is that?
Quincey, you make up things about me, you call me a racist, and you have no concept of logic and facts. Sometimes I wonder why I even respond to your ridiculous comments.
Anyway, let me try to phrase this so that even you can understand. If I was listening to NPR and they said the graduation rate for white athletes in the NCAA basketball tournament was less than 20%, I would have come onto this site and started a thread.
I would have said the same thing about the white players failing to take advantage of receiving a scholarship. I would have made the same negative comments about the head coaches and school administrations who place sports/winning way above academic achievement.
However Quincey, unlike you, I don't make up facts. The NPR comment was about black athletes so I repeated what they said. Would you be happy if I took a page out of your book and made up facts and said the white players weren't graduating?
youve talked about how
blacks have low grad rates in the ncaa tournament
blacks arent better athletes
whites are better athletes because of high jump
we are racists if we compare white players to other white players
theres a certain pattern there.
one thing ive always done is support both races white or black
you also some how didnt see a couple of post putting down black players yet you was online but as soon as someone compared harangody or schyer to another white player there you were being Robert Kardashian
I get where Quincey is coming from but that serial killers bit was uncalled for
"Once again, as I stated above, schools like Xavier, Georgetown, and Western Kentucky prove that major college basketball and academics are mutually compatible."
what are these guys majoring in?
1 person could drop out to support his family
1 person dropped out bcuz he got caught up in the frat life
1 person never got into the college in the first place
1 person had his family tell him to go overseas
1 person had the coach not renew his scholarship
Every player has a different background but those drop out rates are sad
I would venture to say that those higher graduation rate schools dont recruit socially disadvantaged guys who never took high school seriously/couldnt pass the ACT.
They just move onto the next talented player.
Those unrecruited players either
A) go to the juco to try and get their grades up
B) Transfer/go to a school that will "overlook" their grades in order to win (and risk scandals)
C) drop out and try to make money without an education: crime/mmanual labor.
riiiight you would have said the same thing about white players....another thing you called peopel racist when they compared and white player to another white player but you have never said one word when someone compares a black player to another black player. you can deny all you want but youre track record speaks for itself
and obviously from the don's comment im not the only black person who wonders what youre point was to even post that on here. it served zero PURPOSE except to envoke a emotion response from black people , since it was a degrading post about us. and even now you see no problem what so ever with posting that. all you seem to do is look at it from youre white point of view while not even considering how it looks or makes a black person feel
so yeah im calling you a racists
youre right don it was uncalled for and that was my point. there was no place for those stats just like there was no place for his. he could have easily said basketball players in general only graduate this amount of times but he had to be specific. with no reguards to how a black person may feel. if i would have heard that 8 out of every 10 guys who play college basketball are white i would not have posted that because i would have thought about what purpose it would have in this chat room and how that migh make some white people feel. 2 of my friends watching the game with me are white and they are just as emotional as i am right now wondering what person would post that in this type of chat room
imagin being at a party with mix races talking about everything that we have talked about in a post tonight then have a white guy walk in and repeat everything he said in his first post that he heard on the radio. everyone else is talking about ohio st tenn, who's going in the draft, how good this or that team is, and this dumba$$ walks into the room and says what he said
Nah Quincey what would suck is if someone showed up and mentioned how the knicks did the right thing getting Sergio "The Deer" Rodriguez and T-Mac and they'll get Lebron and Wade and be NBA champs in 2011.
I don't mind talking about this stuff, and this is the only really good time to bring it up because no one cares about that stuff during the regular season, and this topic is the only time you hear it on airwaves. I just think this thread is losing it's purpose having turned into an arguing match rather than about what could be done to make it better.
Quincey, you once again proved this discussion was way above your level of comprehension. There was nothing in any of my posts that was degrading or negative towards black people. In fact, I praised the black female athletes who excel academically and I praised the black male athletes at those schools with high graduation rates. But of course you completely ignored that.
I praised Bobby Knight, John Thompson, and his son for emphasizing academics, but you ignored that.
Most important of all, you simply can't grasp the concept I was trying to illustrate. Major College Basketball at most schools uses athletes for financial gain and notoriety. They simply don't care if a significant percentage of the players don't graduate. Along the way many athletes fail to take advantage of that scholarship, they don't get that degree, and they face life without the advantage a college education can bring.
The thread was a cry out against the system, not against black people. It just so happens that the majority of players happen to be black. If they were white, you would hear the same complaints form me.
You aren't very intelligent so you completely mis-interpreted what I said. Just like you pick out bits and pieces out of past threads and try to make me sound like a racist. It's really sad that you are incapable of using logic, discussing serious issues intelligently, and instead lash out with those pathetic racial attacks. You remind me of Sara Palin with her idiotic "Death Panel" comments about the Obama administration. Just like you, Sara Palin never allows facts to stand in the way of anything she believes.
and once again you are just looking at it from a white person perspective instead of trying to put youre self in a black persons shoes.
go to a club or bar where theres alot of black people in youre city while there watching basketball and talking basketball and say everything you said in youre first post and see how many black peoples "level of comprehension" doesnt go as high as you say mine does. and then when they dont agree with you tell them "yall dont understand because it goes way above your level of comprehension"
i would really pay to see that. its real easy to say these things with black peopel around while on the computer
and there would have been no problem if he listened to what he heard then though about how it wouldmake a black person feel and then did some research to see how many college BASKETBALL PLAYERS minue race, didnt graduate while the ncaa is making money off of them and what could we/they do to make it better. and then no saying that this black guy is "emotional" and is making "excuses" when i come up with reasons why some black players dont graduate
matter of fact im gonna copy and paste what he said and put it on my facebook and the nbdraft.net face book and ask people if they were in the house with there friends, black and white, and a white guy came in and just repeated what he heard what would they say and how would they react
Quincey, when you do that, please make sure you don't change any words and you copy the entire post, not just one little portion. I know you like to change what I say to fit in with your bias, but please don't change anything. Let the words speak for themselves.
And who are you to say that that only white people or only black people can say certain things? That in itself is so racist that it's pathetic.
KnicksFan7, you brought up a key point. Nothing will ever change until we talk about the problem openly and logically. As you saw in this discussion, some people cannot do that without getting emotional and launching into character assaults.
The real problem is the fact that almost everyone loves the game, cares about who wins, and talks only about basketball. Very few people care if the players graduate. It's something that's been ignored for decades and it isn't gonna change any time soon. Everybody loves it when their favorite college team is winning and gaining national notoriety. However, if you bring up graduation rates, everyone changes the subject.
Check it out, hardly anyone is participating in this discussion because it's a topic people want to put on the back burner and pretend it doesn't exist.
I really don't care for Bobby Knight, but I was always amazed by how the discussions about him were framed. The same people who talked proudly about basketball coaches where the starting players rarely graduated, would vehemently attack Bobby Knight, making him look like the all time villain.
But you know what Knicksfan7, parents loved Bobby Knight because if you didn't study and make progress towards your degree, you didn't play. That's why the graduation rate at Indiana was around 98%. As I said earlier, I really don't like Bobby Knight, but we need a lot more coaches who make education a top priority.
Denny Crum was a highly respected coach at Louisville for a long time. 60 Minutes did a profile of him and reported to the nation that in 25 years of coaching, Denny Crum never had a black player graduate from Louisville. I found that mind boggling, but in reality, nobody cared.
thats not racist thats a fact. there are pretty of things and words i can say around black peopel that you cant say....am i wrong about that?
Quincey just b/c you can say something around black people that white people can't doesn't mean it's right? I am only playing devil's advocate with you.
starr harris-Quincey are you serious??????...Did one of youre white friends really come in and say that? i would have slapped him
charles ward- you should have punched him in the face and kicked him out
justin bishop- theres a time and place for everything and that wasnt the time or place
maya lawson- some white people just dont understand there are certain things you dont say at certain times
kevin queen- if i was there i would have went across his head with a bottle
keita queen- and he really expected you not to be emotional or even try to see it from youre point of view
hold up there is more
adel queen-why would he even bring that up when no one was even talking about that subject
joann thompson(my mom)- people like ythat you just have to pray for because they either dont realize or dont care about how a black man may feel about that. As a black man you have delt with these type of comments and people through out youre life and i raised you to be a bigger man and not react to people like that
mike hobson- you need to stop hanging around white people like that
joe stephens- Reminds me of a time me and my boys were watching lock up and one of my friends white friend said "did ya'llknow that most people who occupy our jails are black men". Some white people just dont understand theres a time and place for everything
kim nelson-Quincy my husband is white and he just said he would never go to the bar and say that around his black friends.
knicks i agree it doesnt make it right but it doesnt make it racists to say that i can say something around my black friends that a white person cant say. no more then a woman can say certain things to one of there females friends that a man cant say
derius beard-Its sad that its true but as a white guy thats something i wouldnt go into a bar or at my friends house and just bring up if thats not the subject matter. You have to think about how the black people in the room might take it
As I've said many times in this thread, there are good reasons why college administrators and head coaches don't place a premium on education. The coaches receive monster salaries, but only if they win. Unfortunately at most schools, graduation rates aren't factored into a coach's salary. That's why some people are suggesting a minimum 40% graduation rate be attained before schools are allowed into the NCAA Tournament.
Here's an article I read this morning that gives you some idea as to how much money is involved.
Kentucky's Calipari is currently the highest-paid coach in college basketball. He has an eight-year, $31.65 million deal. Calipari, will receive an additional $650,000 on top of his $3.7 million in guaranteed compensation this year.
And winning the NCAA tournament almost always means a new, more lucrative contract for a coach, as well. After the University of Kansas won the national title in 2008, it tore up Bill Self's $1.6 million-a-year contract, which had three years remaining, and gave him a new 10-year, $30 million deal.