Over the past six games (all duke wins) Kyle Singler is averaging around 20 points 7 boards and a few assists. Also, he has been getting to the line more. Most of the articles I have read about Singler during this season have talked about his inconsistent shooting. Well, over the past month he has been shooting well and he has been the best player on the best team in the ACC. I just think he deserves a bit more recognition lately. Jon Scheyer has been the one getting great national press all year, but a closer look at that stats show that Mr. Scheyer is shooting about 36% from the field in ACC play. Against Al Farouq Aminu, Singler had 21 pts 15 rebs, and Duke won. Singler also hit 8 out of 10 3 pointers against Georgia Tech. I think may fans expect singler to score about 25 a game and make about 55 percent of his field goal attempts. But, on Duke Singler is the best player and most dangerous and often draws the opposing team's best defender. Scheyer, while a great scorer, is quite one dimensional. Scheyer is a great scorer, but he is not a point guard. Many of his assists are simple kick outs to the three point line for Nolan SMith or singler. Singler deserves more credit in these mock drafts is what I'm getting at. The guy plays on a team where he and Zoubek might be the best facilitators, he plays his ass off for 40 minutes almost each game, he plays hurt, he makes the opposing team play defense, and in the ACC he is averaging about 18 ppg and 7.5 rpg, 40 % from the three-point line, and great defense often on the opposing teams best player. The guy is money. How many 6' 8" or 6' 9" guys are as polished as singler in the college game today. Sure there are quite a few small forwards that are more athletic and have more "upside", but if I were an NBA team I would take Singler over almost any SF in the NCAA this year. I expect Singler to declare for the draft after this year, and I expect him to be a top 15 pick. As a note, I am not a Duke fan. In fact, I loathe the blue devils. Mainly I am a bit tired of seeing lottery pick small forwards of the likes of Brandin Wright or Julian Wright, that have "upside" and then need to be taught the fundamentals of basketball for 3 years after they turn pro.
Adam Morrison wasn't athletic but had very solid intangibles and loved the game. He had a very good knowledge of the game, but his body hasn't (at least so far) let him make use of his knowledge. What I am saying is that you can't be sure going for either athleticism or polished skills.There are needs for each team and they must draft accordingly. If what you need is athleticism or have a polished team that could make use of a project, then so be it but not all teams need that, they might want immediate help as well.
nbeardstallion1, it's nice to see a passionate, well thought out argument. However, you aren't in touch with NBA basketball reality when it comes to Kyle Singler.
First, Kyle Singler may be playing well now, but for a guy with his skill set, he's been borderline terrible all season. A typical game for Singler is shooting something like 2 for 10 from the three point line. Second, he's an excellent college player who has a skill set that will not transfer to the next level.
You might ask why? On defense he doesn't have the lateral movement and agility to keep up with small forwards. What are his PF options at the next level? The basic problem is a lack of strength and bulk.
On offense he moves in slow motion. One of the things I love about Kyle Singler's game is the fact that he often drives to the basket. However, he moves so slowly that weak side help can easily come over and block his access to the basket. And finally, his outside shot is so inconsistent that he can't use that skill to make up for his lack of physical attributes.
Kyle Singler is what college basketball should be. He is a legitimate student and a fierce competitor, so I like him a lot. He's the complete opposite of a "One and Done" player. Just don't expect him to show up on an NBA roster next year.
In reference to the comments of cargathus, just exactly what polished skills do you think Adam Morrison has?
Thanks for the reply,
You may have brought me back to reality a bit on my expectations of singler in the NBA. But, let's not exaggerate his poor shooting. Yes, he is hitting at a less than exceptional 40% from the field, but he is hitting 40% from three also. I think the spacing in the duke offense hurts his effectiveness also. IN the NBA he will be a third option at best and any team he plays on will not be the focus of the defense. In the right situation, i.e. golden state, phoenix, or even the lakers he could be a great pick and pop or catch and shoot option. Can Devin ebanks or stanley robinson catch it and hit it from 26 feet away, no.
Remember, in high school singler was a 1st all-american over the likes of Beasley and Blake Griffin his senior year. I do not think it can be overstated that playing in the post at duke for two seasons set singler back a bit. I think Singler has steadily improved this year. I guess my point is that if Singler was playing with some legitimate talent around him, he would look even more impressive. Nolan Smith and Jon Scheyer do not strike fear into the heart of Duke opponents. Singler is really the only matchup problem for opposition on Duke, and they do not have an athletic playmaker to take attention away from Singler. Singler has been a first round pick in waiting since his junior year in high school. The way these guys get tracked and scouted from such an early point often helps them in the NBA draft process. Rajon Rondo averaged 11 points a game for two years at Kentucky, and he couldn't shoot a lick, but he still went 20th overall (or thereabouts), because in workouts with fellow draft propects scouts remembered why they liked him as NBA player coming out of high school. I think the draft process will be much the same with Singler. The guy will show up and make all of the shots teams ask him to and workouts, and he will more than hold his own when playing against fellow forward prospects. Three years successful years at a program like duke and under scrutiny that singler is under could only make a guy stronger and better as a player and as a person. In these financial times I believe NBA teams will be moving towards drafting experience polished players rather than one and done projects at each position. hell, maybe I am just being hopeful for Singler. I just don't see too many other players with his skill set and size that are going into the draft. I guarantee you this guy is a top 20 pick. He has been tracked and coveted by scouts for too long. He is a known quantity. Just like when he came out of High School every college coach said he was a dream recruit. The NBA coached will think much the same. Nothing like getting a polished fundamentally sound versatile player that shows up every day,
In college he had such a good sense of positioning. Sure his team's offense was based completely around him, but so was the opponent's defense. He had and still knows when and where to get open for the shot. He knows when to cut, basic little things that many players (especially in the pros) don't know how to do. Many players just sit around waiting for the ball and huck it up when they get the chance to. I'm not saying adam morrison was better than kyle singler, I think singler is a better prospect but I am just saying that even though morrison had a high bball IQ, he hasn't (yet at least) been successful.
cargathus, that was a much better response than I anticipated. I think Morrison does have a good sense of positioning, but from my perspective, he is not a polished player. He's essentially nothing more than a stand up shooter who can score if and when his teammates run weak side screens for him. Other than that, he doesn't have any other particularly good basketball skills such as ball handling, passing, and defense. I suspect that's why he never gets off the bench.
I also have a hard time figuring out why you think he has a high basketball IQ. He doesn't appear to be any smarter than most of the other players in the league.
I must admit that after leaving Gonzaga, I thought Morrison would have a decent NBA career. I had no idea he would be a complete failure.
Just watching him play back at Gonzaga I just thought its impossible for a man with his limited athleticism to do as well as he did without a good basketball IQ. I mean, Brian Scalabrine is praised all the time for his so called bball iq (though I never see it cause i never saw him in college and hes just a cheerleader for the celtics) but he doesn't get playing time as well. I think Morrison can still be a usable player in the NBA, but not on the lakers. I think he doesn't get playing time for the lakers not because of his lack of other skills, but just because the team is so stacked. I will agree that his defense is pretty terrible though haha. But also he stands around when he plays for the lakers because that is essentially what he is supposed to do. The triangle offense calls for 3 guys who are supposed to be versatile (kobe, pau, and bynum/odom) with two shooters on the other side ready to shoot or attack the basket when the ball gets swung their way. I never saw much of him at charlotte honestly so I don't know if that is how he has changed his game to adapt to the nba (more of a spot of shooter) but i think the reason people see him standing on offense and not initiating it when hes in the game is because the lakers don't need (or mainly want) him to. I hope he gets another chance somewhere next year.
I literally agree with EVERYTHING rtbt is saying...
cargathus, hmmmmmmmmm...., another interesting response. Brian Scalabrine and Brian Cardinal are players with virtually no NBA level talent but they somehow managed to stay in the league for many years. Do you know that Brian Cardinal's salary with Minnesota was $7 million? How can a guy with no talent make so much money?
And of course the issue that bothers me is the stereotype of a white guy with little or no skills who's always described as having a high basketball IQ that somehow makes up for his lack of physical skills. That truly bothers me because so often it's nothing more than a myth. So when you said Adam Morrison has a high basketball IQ I had to wonder if it wasn't the same old stereotype. Once again, from my perspective, I don't see anything particulary smart or brilliant in Adam Morrison's game.
I too hope Adam Morrison goes to another team and gets an opportunity to play. However, I strongly suspect nothing much will change no matter where he goes.
im also in agreement with rtbt ont his
It is funny how people make a point about how the draft should work and only give one side of the argument. I seem to remember people think Orlando was dumb for taking Dwight Howard over Emeka Okafor. I remember Jay Bilas stating five seconds after Josh Smith was drafted that he was the most likely person in the draft to bust. I remember posting a link to all the old draft grades where everyone thought the pick of Adam Morrison was genius. Man, why wait for Rudy Gay to develop when they can have Adam Morrison? Remember when people said J.J. Redick would be able to have an impact right away? Man, it seems like it took him three years before he learned the fundamentals of handling the ball and playing defense before he could become a consistent part of Orlando's rotation.
I think Kyle Singler is going to have a nice NBA career. He won't be a starter (list of NBA 3s on winners: LeBron, Melo, Pierce, Durant, Artest, Kirilenko, Marion, Hill, Jefferson, Williams, Barnes, and Hedo. Add Singler to that list and tell me which name doesn't belong) so I wouldn't want to take him before 20 or so. The problem then becomes which teams who will win a round in the playoffs would take him, and then do so over alternatives like Damion James, Da'Sean Butler, Lazar Hayward, Darington Hobson, and Quincy Pondexter.
My criteria for top 20 is different than others. I wouldn't touch Solomon Alabi, Stanley Robinson, Luke Babbitt, or Hassan Whiteside in the top 20. I don't need to draft guys who will come off the bench in the long run if I'm running a team that cannot make the playoffs at this day and time. I can find guys who can come off the bench in any number of way. Stars need to be searched out, and they are usually only acquired in the draft. If stars aren't there, then get a future starter. Willie Warren shouldn't slip, Avery Bradley shouldn't slip, and I have a much easier time envisioning Jimmer Fredette being a starting point guard in the NBA than Gani Lawal being a lottery pick for Milwaukee.
I agree with your point about people being dead wrong in their predictions of NBA draft prospect's futures. I once heard a comment by Steve Lavin about the NBA draft that I have referenced several times. It went something like this: There are two types of NBA draft prospects, people like Baron Davis that are can't miss NBA players, and then everyone else. He was basically saying that there are only a few sure things in the NBA draft. Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think Singler is a can't miss NBA star. But, I do not believe there are any can't miss NBA stars in this draft. That being said, I think I would use my 1st round pick on a polished player that has the ability to contribute and compete immediately, and I happen to think Singler is one of those guys.
Is williams on your list of starting threes Marvin Williams of the Hawks? He is the weakest one on the list in my opinion. But your list does get me thinking for sure. I think singler could be better than Barnes and williams. Williams got a second contract from the hawks, but he is pretty soft compared to the rest of that team. Barnes is the kind of player Singler could be. He trails on the break often getting open looks at threes, he guards multiple positions, and he is happy with the bench or starting, also he does not need plays called for him to be effective.
I am just rambling at this point. Thanks for the response. You've got me thinking about Singler's spot in the NBA a little bit. I guess like most guys, Singler would have to be on the right team to stick in the league and be effective.
nbeardstallion1, another eloquent post which I enjoyed reading.
It's not as if I would be shocked if Kyle Singler made it in the NBA, I just don't expect it to happen. At best, I think he will be an 11th or 12th man on the roster, which is the same prediction I have for his teammate, Jon Scheyer.
As I mentioned above, I think Kyle Singler and Jon Scheyer are everything that's right about college basketball. Therefore I hope I'm wrong and Singler is drafted in the top 15 and makes it in the league. And I hope Jon Scheyer some how also makes it onto an NBA roster. I just don't think either guy will make any kind of significant contribution at the next level.
I guess we just disagree about this guys potential as a player at the next level, and that is okay. I think Kyle Singler will be at least as effective as Luke Walton has been in the NBA. I also think that he is a better all-around player, certainly a much better defender and rebounder, than Mike Dunleavy was at the same stage in his career at Duke. Yes, I also fall into the trap of comparing white players to other white players. Despite Singler's struggle as a shooter for the first half of the season, I still believe the guy is a great shooter and a can't miss contributer in the NBA. He has perfect form, a high quick release, and deep range. I think his skill-set and brains will make him a nice catch for any team and keep him in the rotation of a quality NBA team. I appreciate your thoughtful responses, and I have to admit they are quite persuasive.
So, RTBT, we'll see how it plays out for the rest of this season and then the draft. Hopefully we will revisit this discussion after the college season is over. thanks.
I brought up this same topic slightly over a year ago; I made very similar points, although I wasn't making a case for Singler - just hoping to elicit some response (http://www.nbadraft.net/node/4155). When I have time, I'll chime in and give my (updated) take on the matter...get excited. That was sarcastic, but I am enthused to respond...as he -- like I said he would -- has moved to his more natural SF position and naturally his numbers have drastically changed. It should make for an interesting change in analysis.
yeah I understand what your saying...its pretty crazy that Brian Cardinal made so much though. But when I say that i don't really think of that stereotype. Sure it seems like I am just saying that because he is not athletic but I say that thinking of the amount of college players in the US. Sure there are many smart players, and there are many athletic players as well, but none of them have panned out professionally. To maximize ones skills and talent takes hard work and dedication. With that brings things such as basketball IQ. There are people that can look amazing in a workout but are just awful when it comes to actually playing team basketball. But in response it's not due to the stereotype that I think that, but rather fundamentals and iq when i see him play (granted I am thinking of his gonzaga days...when you could actually see him play :P)
I too am very high on Singler. He has been extremely well the entire season, and I think he could be a great asset to many teams right now. Personally I hope he declares for this year's draft of 2010. I know all you Duke fans would hate that, but his play deserves some credit, and I could see NBA teams drafting him around 15-25 range. That may seem a little high to some of you but I think he is very underrated, and most NBA teams will recognize this, and will take advantage if he declares for this year's draft.
I too hope that Singler declares for the draft in 2010. I think he would have been a first round pick after his sophomore season, and I was surprised that he did not at least "test the waters". I agree with your opinion that he is underrated. I still do not understand why he chose duke, given the players they had when he arrived. Had he chosen UCLA or Kansas he would have joined teams that had post players which would have enabled him to play the 3/4 combo forward from day one. When this guy was a senior in high school NBA scouts were coming to his games on a regular basis. I mean this guy was top 5 in a class that included beasley, rose, love, mayo, and gordon. He has been on the NBA radar since his sophomore year in high school, and I don't think his time at Duke being coached by "K" will hurt him in the eyes of NBA people. Though I do not think staying another year will make him any better as a player. I think he has given so much, too much in my opinion, to that program and it is time for him to move on. Duke hasn't had a recruit as highly touted as Singler, in years, and then when they get him they kept the ball away from him and put him down low when he was undersized. Hopefully he continues his stellar play into march and turns some heads in the NCAA tournament.
Kyle Singler will not be able to guard people like Marvin Williams and Matt Barnes. Williams is doing a bit less this year in terms of minutes and scoring because of the addition of Crawford, but he is still a solid two-way 3. If Joe Johnson leaves this summer, they'll take a step back going to Crawford and Williams, but not as much as some will predict. Barnes is a tough sob, and really more athletic than he is given credit for.
Offensively, I think Singler will be fine. He'd be fine with a second unit. I just don't know if teams picking between 20-30 will really desire what he brings.
i think he can be a rich mans luke walton. by now everyone should know you dont really have to be able to guard anyone right away to play in the nba. hell kapono has been int he leauge for years and still cant guard anyone. the only thing a player has to do is not let everyone get way above there average when they check them , which is something every guy drafted can do. there are alot of good players who arent good defenders so thats not as big of an issue as some people like to make it. the guy has a high basketball iq and luke walton talent except amplified. i recall peopel saying kevin love wont be able to rebound or score much in the nba because he isnt that fast or jumps that high and look at him now. its because hes more talented then people gave him credit for and he has a high basketball iq
Kyle Singler isn't good at anything in particulr. Similar to Adam Morrison in that regard..As rtbt said, he's can't guard any position in the NBA. He's way too slow to defend any perimeter guy without fouling alot, and his too weak to defend post players. He also isn't very good ball-handler or finisher at the rim for an NBA player. I'm not high on him as an NBA player. He's nothing more than an end of the bench player in my eyes.
nbeardstallion1, I really enjoyed exchanging points of view on this subject. It was one of the more intelligent, polite discussions I've experienced on this website. I don't know who TobiasFunke is, but I'm looking forward to his return and promised comments on the subject.
I was LOL when I saw your comment about comparing white players only with other white guys. If you read through this thread, almost every Kyle Singler comparison were with other white guys.
I admire players like Singler and I don't enjoy it when I say he probably won't be a success in the NBA. However, as I mentioned before, he is a skilled and fierce competitor so I would never rule out a pleasant surprise from him. Who knows, maybe he'll bulk up and make it as a PF where his lack of quickness and agility won't be a liability?
I have not participated much on this websites discussions. Though, I too found your comments respectul and intelligent. I have to admit I am kind of pulling for Kyle Singler because he grew up in the same town as me, Medford, OR. But, I wasn't much of a fan of his as NBA prospect until he played at Duke. I tend to think that he will be a good forward at the next level, but I am not sure I can say that he will be exclusively a PF or a SF. I do think that his mid range game will improve in the NBA. Though defenders will be taller and quicker, I think the spacing and will be better for him given that his teammates at the next level will also demand respect from the defense. At Duke Singler was the inside game last year, and this year he is expected to be a perimeter threat, a driving threat, and an inside threat all at the same time. Though I've noticed his midrange and driving opporunities have increase since Brain Zoubek actually has shown up over the last four or so games. I am sure the NBA scouts and GMs recognize his unique skill-set, effort, and basketball IQ. The effort, the team play, decision making, and his ability to pick the right spots to be aggressive all translate to being an immediately effective player in the NBA. Admittedly, like many folks out there, I seem to miss pretty badly each year on a few players that think will be quality NBA players.
so you think luke walon and jamario moon , who both were less talented at the same stage by a nice margin, can be better then end of the bench players but shingler cant?
It's nice to see a healthy, intelligent discussion with legitimate points from several people -- in particular the back and forth between rtbt and nbeard. Looking back on that year-plus old thread, one of the reasons I avoided participating more in this site (and writing about a wider range of players) was the frustration of having to consistently reiterate my points due to others not reading carefully...also, posts like Huskies100's. I'm sure it's equally frustrating for everyone else. So it goes with internet forums, I guess. I was going to post an updated Singler analysis last night but had limited time to do so -- although nbeard made some of my points for me, so hopefully I don't step on his toes if I post something. >>>> Some food for thought… in a Bill Simmons-Daryl Morey podcast yesterday, Daryl Morey claimed (I’m paraphrasing): 2010 is a pretty solid draft…the upcoming draft and ‘12 are probably going to be better than ’11…prospects are going to want to come out early in order to avoid the impending labor situation and money issues in the NBA. 2012 will be better because a hefty majority of elite players, including (high school class of ’10) freshman, will stay an extra year to avoid the labor situation.
*This could have serious implications. A lot of fringe prospects may stay an extra year to avoid the influx of talented players declaring this year, a lot of potential first rounders may be bumped into the second round, lottery players into the 20s, etc.
**Daryl Morey is the successful, wunderkind GM of the Houston Rockets, aptly nicknamed the "Dork Elvis."