D'antoni's Knicks vs. D'antoni's Suns
I know I am a Knicks fan and a lot of you guys will think I am being extremely biased, but read what I have to say before you say I am being bias. I see D'antoni's Knicks having the potential to be better than the Suns team's he coached for numerous reasons.
1. They play Defense. D'antoni's Suns rarely played defense, the Knicks have been consistently holding opponents under 100 points.
2. They play with fight. This is very objective, but when this team is down they come back with a lot of fight in them. I have seen this team come back numerous times that the Suns of the past it was rare for them to be down that coming back was something they were not used to.
3. Depth. The Suns of old had better super-stars, not going to argue that. Though the Suns of old did not have a player off the bench better than Al Harrington, Nate Robinson, or some can argue Larry Hughes. While Steve Nash and Amare are much better than Chris Duhon and David Lee that is not the point. Point is in order to win NBA Championships you need a strong bench.
I am ready to hear everyone's thoughts on this matter. Think before you type out something of irrelevance.
Honestly... The Knicks have played well as of late, but I don't think they'll be better than those Suns teams that competed consistently at the top of the stacked Western Conference year in and year out.
Let's see the Knicks finish above .500 and make the playoffs in the East before we start posing questions like this.
It's pretty hard imagining this knick bunch to reach 50-60 wins much like the suns did during D'antoni's run there... but you are indeed correct in saying that these guys defend better than the Suns, those guys won't defend even if their life depended on it... Problem is with 2010 coming in, if ever a max player comes in, i think Lee and Robinson are probably gonna want to leave as they won't get the money that they'd want... i think the year they'll really make some noise is 2011, when Curry and Jeffries contracts run out...
is this a serious post?..better then the suns?..come on tell me that this is a joke
Well, I wouldn't post something if it was not serious. In the areas I have mentioned it is worth to consider thought about. I mean I am not being narrow minded about just this year because D'antoni is staying with the Knicks for a long time. I am talking also the future of the franchise.
i dont think youre factoring in playing in the east and the west. because im almost certain if those suns played in the east they probably would do alot better then what the knicks are doing now. id put this years suns in the east now and im sure they would be doing better. i gladly say im wrong if the knicks get to the finals( thats on eof the only ways ill even consider then being as good as those suns)
as far as the future no one knows because this isnt the team the knicks will have in the future. if they stick with this team they have now then i say no not even close
Yeah, if the Suns played in the East they would probably represent the East year after year, but they play in the West. That's a cop-out. That's like me saying if I was 6-4 I would be able to play Division 1 basketball, but I have never been 6-4 so how do I know if I would even be able to play Division 3 basketball.
If the Knicks bring in a LeBron James, etc... They could still sign Lee to a good deal due to Bird Rights. Same goes for Nate Robinson, BUT... I doubt they'll re-sign him.
The Knicks won't be able to sign another max deal free-agent in the summer of 2010 unless they move Curry or Jeffries by the deadline, BUT... They could move them during the 2011 season as expiring contracts. Not to mention the Knicks will still have all of their mid-level exception and bi-annual exception remaining for the 2010 season. The Knicks COULD be a very good team in 2010 if they make the right moves.
The Knicks of the future I see guys like Lee, Gallo, Al Harrington, Wilson Chandler (if not traded) all staying along with 1 max free agent.
I see Al Harrington staying with the Knicks no matter what. He loves it there, and wants to be part of something good.
so they could sign lee to the 10-11 million a year that he is looking for as well as lebron?..and we are also playing the guessing game that they are gonna get lebron. you could say that about miami and nets as well then if we are doing that. i mean of course they could be very good just like any other team IF this happens and IF that happens
I am not saying Lebron, Wade, or Bosh because I do not know. What I do believe if this if the Knicks get either Lebron or Wade then David Lee will stay with the Knicks for less money. He wants to continue being a Knick. Also, Al Harrington will take a mid-level or vet's minimum to stay a Knick, no dobut in my mind.
Yes... They'd have to sign LeBron James (or whichever max deal free-agent they're able to land) first though. If they were to sign Lee first, that'd take up the cap and they wouldn't be able to sign LeBron. Sign LeBron with the cap money that's available AND THEN re-sign Lee with Bird Rights.
They'd be close to or over the cap after those two moves, BUT like I said... They still have all of their mid-level and bi-annual exceptions remaining. They could bring in a very good player or a couple with that money. That'll surround LeBron with some decent talent until they can move Curry or Jeffries' expiring contracts OR until they expire the summer of 2011.
Walsh can easily afford to hand out a maximum salary to one of these top free agents, with room to spare. But it has long been rumored that he’d be swinging for the fences in 2010, hoping to land two big-name players. But it looks as if the economic downturn may have put an end to that plan because it would take $33.2 million to sign two of the prime free agents. In other words, the Knicks would have to shed another $5.3 million to $8.5 million in salary to offer a second maximum contract.
Shedding additional salary in 2010 to afford two maximum free agents means shedding the contracts of Jared Jeffries (due to earn about $6.9 million in 2010-11) or Eddy Curry (due to earn about $11.3 million in 2010-11). And because it could take more than Jeffries’s $6.9 million, it really comes down to removing Curry from the Knicks’ 2010 roster. In my next article, I will begin to explore options for the Knicks to free additional salary-cap space by moving Curry.
they cant sign 2 max freeagents and thats without resigning lee. if they decide to resign lee to the contract hes demanding im not sure they can even get lebron
Yea lol... There's no way the Knicks can afford TWO max deal free-agents without moving Curry and from the looks of it... Nobody out there is stupid enough to trade for him without the Knicks throwing Gallinari in the deal. IF the Knicks want two max deal free-agents, then they might have to package Gallinari in a trade with Curry.
as far as al harrington staying you do realize ya'll arent gonna sign hm to leauge minimum..he will ask for at the very very very least 6-7million. are the knicks gonna do that and try to resign lee?..only if they really plan on not getting lebron. basically you get lebron you cant afford lee or harrington or nate and that leaves you with wilson chandler,gallo and lebron and huges. i have to be honest that team is not a threat next year. i would give the knicks a bigger chance if they were an di dont know lebron but he has said he wants to win now and i dont think he would want to take a step backwards and then wait for the year after and hope the team will get somemore players. im pretty sure hes tired of waiting and this is the last year hes even gonna wait on cleveland
yep but if they do package gallo then that hurts them even more for the future. another thing that is disheartening for knicks fans is the fact gallo plays the sf. hes not a pf and we all know that. chandler is a pretty good sg but hes better as a sf and then you want lebron who is a sf but can play pf but that isnt a good idea to play him thee full time. i think all these reasons combined is why i think the nets are a better fit even though i doubt he goes there either. people say wade and lebron planned on being free agents together so is not out of the realm of possibility that they also plan to play together. people talk about knicks and endorsements and big markets but how nice would it be to be playing in miami with the perfect weather,dont have to wait to get better , and would become a instant title contender
Quincey... You're misunderstanding how Bird Rights work. The Knicks have Bird Rights to Lee, Harrington and Robinson this summer, which means they can re-sign them regardless if it takes them over the cap. That's why I said the Knicks would sign LeBron first and then re-sign Lee, etc.
i understand that but what happens after that?..even with that team they cant sign another freeagent and with that team it isnt a title contending team. and the contracts that lee,harrigton, lebron get im sure equalls more then what will come off the books between jeffires and curry so the team they have now plus lebron will be the team they would be working wit for years.
No one is going to take Curry in any trade. Jeffries is the best bet of the knicks trading away. I wish Curry for the sake of the Knicks would drop his player option and then the knicks give him the vet minimum to give him a job for taking one for the team. I know I am dreaming big time, drinking the kool-aid, w/e you want to call it.
i was just reading up on bird rights and it seems they would have to renounce those birds right first in order to sign lebron or any other max player.. im sill reading up on it so ill add a lil more
Here's how it works, The Knicks can sign 1 Max Player and currently they will have 4 extra cap space. Then because of bird rights they cap go over the cap. They also have a Bi-Annual (2 mil) and a Mid Level (5.59 mil). So they HAVE to sign a Max Contract before they use there bird rights, bi-annual, or a mid level guy. This means its very important for the Knicks to sign a max player early before lee, harrington, or whoever else they want before they decide to leave
That's exactly what I said above lol. Sign LeBron first and THEN re-sign Lee, etc with Bird Rights.
IF that takes them over the cap, THEN they could use their MLE and Bi-Annual Exception, which allows you to go even further over the cap.
tezo83, if you want to learn a bit about how the cap works, you can check out the faq at this site.
In order to have any cap space, the Knicks will have to renounce David Lee, Nate Robinson, Larry Hughes, Al Harrington, Cuttino Mobley, Darko Milicic (with tears falling I'm sure), and Chris Duhon. This means they will lose Bird Right's on those players, but it will be something they cannot avoid because there are cap holds on those players are 150% of their 2009-10 salary (Robinson and Lee's cap hold will be even greater). So let's say they renounce the whole group and now have Curry ($11 million), Jeffries ($6.8 million), Gallinari ($3.3 million), Hill ($2.5 million), Chandler ($2.1 million), Douglas ($1 million), and lets say Landry (league minimum). They then have league minimum cap holds for the every empty roster spots under 12, so basically have $2-3 million tied up there. So lets say they have $20-23 million in cap space. They get themselves a free agent yacht ($16 million for the first year, whether it is Amare, LeBron, Wade, Bosh, whoever). They then will only have between $4-7 million to get another free agent. After that, they don't get the MLE, BAE, etc because those exceptions are only granted to teams who enter free agency over the cap meaning they'll have to fill out the rest of their roster with league minimum signings.
ok the knicks are in a worst position to get lebrn then i thought if they decide to to keep lee and or harrington . after signing lebron that leaves them 7 million under the cap. the only way from them to make that work is to sign another star with that and then use the bird rights if lee and harington wants to stay...with that said they would have to be able to win a title with that team because they cant sing anther player even when curry and jeffres come off the books because they will be so far over the cap and chandlers contract is up ater next year i think so they wont be able to resign him
so its a must that that they sign 2 max players because that team is the team they will be going with for years. but liek i said before i really doubt that lebron goes there over cleveland or the heat. plus im sure other teams are gonna use that same model
from what im reading the knicks woul dhave to renounce those bird rights before signing lebron
The collective bargaining agreement typically disallows teams from signing outside free agents prior to signing their own if it would bring them over the cap to do so. In order to sign the outside free agent under such a scenario, the team must first “renounce” their own player. Until they do, he stays on their cap, in what is called a “cap hold”, and the team is prevented from using his salary on another player, even though he is now a free agent. Once that player is renounced, his team loses his “Bird rights”, but will then have free space to sign an outside player. For example, when the Magic wanted to give Rashard Lewis a max deal, they couldn’t without first renouncing Darko Milicic and the $15 million cap hold associated with his roughly $5 million salary. At that point the Magic had max money available for Lewis, though they could no longer go over the cap to bring back Milicic. See also Bobby Simmons and Michael Redd.
I guess it never ends. I'm talking about the fickle point of views of the fans.
During the first 4-6 weeks of the season, New York fans were clamoring to get rid of D'antoni claiming his team didn't rebound and/or play any defense. In essence they said he was a terrible coach, he was in over his head, and blamed all of the Knick problems on D'antoni. The fans somehow completely forgot about the incredible job he did in Phoenix for several years.
Then the Knicks got their act together and they're playing decent basketball, so what happened. All of those negative comments about firing D'antoni suddenly disappeared from the conversation. Now Knick fans are talking about the future like they're going somewhere, and in the absence of a major free agent signing, they're going nowhere.
Even though they're playing much better, the Knicks have some fundamental problems, but D'antoni is not one of those fundamental problems. He's a very good coach. Here are the serious fundamental problems for the Knicks.
1. Chris Duhon is a backup PG. You can't win in the NBA without a premier PG.
2. Even though I love David Lee and he deserves to be an All Star, he's only 6 ft 9 so he's over matched against some of the bigger centers in the league.
3. Two of their key scorers, Al Harrington and Wilson Chandler, are about as inconsistent as any two primary scorers in the league. One night they might shoot lights out, but the next night they can't hit the side of backboard. I realize most guys cannot play great every night, but Harrington and Chandler have far too many off nights.
that must have been a different site because i remeber the when peopel made post about d'antonio and most were saying keep him and give him time. i was one of the few saying you have to think about firing him after next season because he hasnt won much more then thomas has
Quincey, I wasn't talking about basketball websites, I was referring to the New York newspapers, the NY Post and Daily News. During the first 6 weeks of the season, if you went online to their sports pages, you would have seen one person after another clamoring for the end of the D'Antoni reign in NY.
basically they are in a bad position as far as signing lebron who wants to win now. if he was willing to take a step back, which he hasnt indicated at all, then he would sign, spend a year not being in the title hunt and hope that the next year after curry and jeffery come off the books they can sign a very very good player. im not sure whos avalible at that point on top of having to resign chandler
bothteams imma copy and paste what u just said in another post
You're 100% right about the cap holds. Not only will the Knicks have cap holds due to their current free-agents, they also have minimum cap holds due to past players they haven't renounced yet. Minimum cap holds are worth $825,497 I think.
The Knicks don't have as much money as we all think they do. They'll have to renounce the rights to quite a few players first.
Well when can they renounce the rights of the players no longer on the team???
They can renounce those who are no longer with the team at anytime, but probably won't until they've set themselves up to have cap room.
I think they hold on to past players because they've been over the cap for a long time and keep them just in case they have to use their contracts as salary fillers during trades, etc.
Okay, that makes sense.
yeah i didnt know all this stuff either. with all that said i think it becomes less likely that bron signs with them because he wont have a good enough team to compete for a title which is somethign he said will factor in big time
Yea... New York's chances look very grim unless they're able to trade Curry and Jeffries by the deadline for expiring contracts.
I didn't really understand how cap holds worked until today. I've actually been trying to figure it out on my own for a couple weeks. I finally understand lol.