Scheyer or Ridnour?
Who will be the better Pro? Whats the difference between these two? I know Scheyer is taller, but does he maybe have more game?
ridnour is more of a pg while scheyer is a 2 guard with pg skills. scheyer can light it up from deep. neither of them are very good defenders
better pro career? ridnour
Scheyer is not much of a point guard? Why does he always have so many assist? 6 a game is pretty good. I seen some real nice passes off of things he created.
i didnt say he wasnt much of a point guard. he is running the duke offense pretty well this season. i meant he isnt naturally a pg, more of a 2 who can play the 1
For someone who handles the ball so much, a 6-1 turnover assist to turnover ratio is really good. He must lead
the NCAA in that stat. On top of that he's a 6'5" combo guard who can play the point effectively. He's got great court vision and always plays under control. I think he's an NBA player. He should be drafted
I can see him being drafted mid to late 2nd Round. But like most people on here have said, he'd have so much success if he plays overseas
Scheyer doesn't have a lot of upside nor am I sure he'd contribute immediately. He's a mid to late second round pick at best... If he gets drafted. It'll depend on how well he performs at the PIT, Orlando Pre-Draft Camp and during team workouts.
He could prove me wrong, but I just don't think his game will translate well over to the NBA. He doesn't have the speed/quickness to defend point guards in the NBA, nor the size to defend shooting guards.
Defensively I think is where Scheyer would struggle at the most at the next level. I love this guys basketball IQ and just understanding of the game. But in the NBA, everyone on the wing is a good scorer-shooter and/or driver, and I don't know if Scheyer could play that minimum level of defense required not to be ISO'ed at the next level, and be a liability to the team defensively. He definitely will play at a high level in Europe, and maybe a couple years down the road, be able to make that jump to the NBA as we've seen with so many other players. I really like Scheyer though, and the argument can be made that right now he's the most important player on that Duke team
i don't see sheyer making it in the league. He might get second round consideration and maybe making a 12th man spot somewhere. But ridnour is actually a great ball handler has very good speed with the ball in his hands. His defense, shooting, and ability to finish through contact is what keeps him from being anything special in the league. But handling the rock he is actually one of the best in the game, not sure i see scheyer with those same handles at the nba level.
Scheyer is deliberately ignored because he is melanin challenged. He could guard anyone in the NBA. He has never had trouble with guards who are in the NBA now or are projected by this web site as first rounders. He certainly had no trouble guarding any of UCONN, UNC, or Gonzaga's guards. He had 2 of his best career games against UNC last year and outplayed Jeff Teague and Tony Douglas to win the MVP of the ACC tournament.
It has nothing to do with his color. "If he were black he would be a lottery pick"... That's hilarious lol.
Defending players on the perimeter in college compared to defending guys in the perimeter in the NBA is a completely different ball game.
You are ridiculous . Henderson had an even worse game but was a lottery pick. Why didn't Lawson ,Ellington, Douglas , Dyson, Kemba Walker eat him up if Scheyer is so unathletic. It's the same with Hansbrough. He is ranked 7th in Chad Ford rookie ratings on ESPN. Everyone who was not intelligent enough to see through stereotypes were sure Hansbrough would never score in double figures.
jwhite - And look what happened when Scheyer and the rest of the Duke players guarded Villanova's guards in the NCAA tournament last year.
jwhite, people of all colors get love on here. If guys can ball they don't get hated on. I don't think sheyer will make it in the league has nothing to do with him being white. I felt the same way about Mardy Collins not being able to be a great athlete and create his own shot consitently in the nba. And he was black, but people like you only like to point out when white players are hated on or compared together.
Henderson who played a worse game wasn't hurt. He didn't drop in the draft . But Scheyer is tarred with Henderson's terrible game. Scheyer can definitely play in the NBA. How do you answer the following? He has an unheard of A/TO ratio but isn't a point guard? He has improved considerably every year but doesn't have much upside? Scheyer has been the best defender (according to Jay Bilas) for Duke over the past 2 seasons but could never stay with guards in the NBA. He has had his best games against the best ACC guards: last season he had 2 very good games against UNC (Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington) , Jeff Teague and Tony Douglas when Scheyer was MVP of the ACC tournament. This season he clearly outplayed the guards of UCONN winning pre season NIT MVP as well as the Gonzaga guards.
Scheyer: ACC tournament MVP > Douglas, Henderson and Teague
Preseason NIT MVP > Kemba Walker, and Jerome Dyson
Two very good games against UNC last year= Lawson, Ellington.
Duke destroyed Gonzaga Scheyer> Bouldin and other Gonzaga guards. If Scheyer can't even play in the same league as these guards, he couldn't outplay them (or at least play as well as them). These foolish statements giving reasons why Scheyer can't play in the NBA have no logic to back them up.
Why did Scheyer get these results over lottery and other first round picks or projected first rounders ?
Scheyer has limited potential;
He was the ACC tournament MVP because Ty Lawson out for the ACC tournament, if Lawson was healthy in that stretch, I'm sure it would've been different.
Kemba Walker and Jerome Dyson are not living up to the hype they were thought to be, though Scheyer did have a good game against UCONN
I'm a UNC fan, but UNC cannot defend on the perimeter at all whatsover. Ty Lawson as a perimeter defender at UNC was pathetic, almost every guard that played against UNC the last year or so had big games (Rice, Teague, Douglas, Scheyer).
Bouldin's athleticism is in the same boat as Scheyer lol
To D7H7N ;
You sound ridiculous attempting to rationalize proof Scheyer is an NBA prospect. The definition of athletic is simply being good at athletics. When Scheyer schools the incredibly overrated UNC players this year you won't be LOL. It can't be denied. Just as Hansbrough, despite doing everything a college player could do to prove he could play in the NBA, people like you used racist stereotypes to belittle him, as you and other Kool aid drinkers are doing with Scheyer.
You have brought up this whole Sheyer isn't getting any love because he is white thing before and it is insane. Scottie Reynolds is a top college guard like Sheyer who's game doesn't neccessarily translate to the NBA, is he not getting any love because he is black? I personally think Sheyer is a solid college player who will be a 2nd rounder and will probably make a squad as a 10-12th man. I'm assuming you haven't watched college and pro basketball for long because if you have you'd realize that a great college player is often irrelevant in the pros.
NCAA 1st team All-Americans who play limited roles or are not in the NBA
2007-Acie Law IV, Alando Tucker
2006-Adam Morrison,Sheldon Williams
2005-Wayne Simien, Dee Brown
2004-Lawrence Roberts, Andre Emmit
4 of the last 6 years, at least 2 of the top 5 players in NCAA Mens Basketball are no longer in the NBA or riding the bench.
You don't need to belittle my knowledge or experience viewing college or NBA basketball,unless you aren't confident of your own knowledge. There are certain players who don't have the required skills to be successful in the NBA despite being stars in college. Scheyer is not one of the them. Gerald Henderson was very overrated in my opinion and didn't deserve to be a lottery pick. His absolute lack of success so far proves my point. Scheyer has the skills to be more successful in the NBA than Henderson. Anyone who keeps calling Scheyer a shooting guard only has to be intellectually challenged. Several former NBA players have commented on Scheyer assist to TO ratio being incredible although it is down to "only" 5 to 1. As for the BS, Scheyer can't guard athletic guards I have a question .If Scheyer is so deficient in defense why does Duke have one of the top defenses in the country? Ask Clemson , a top 20 team, if Duke plays good defense. Scheyer, compared to Henderson, is a much better ball handler, passer and outside schooter , 3 qualities absolutely required of NBA guards. Henderson was stronger and an incredible leaper. But those qualities don't translate to being a successful NBA guard. As for the BS Scheyer doesn't have "much of an upside" , Scheyer is immensely better than he was at the start of last season in every area. There is no reason to think he will not continue to improve. Scheyer VO2 max is off the charts. So Scheyer actually can be called an athletic freak . If you don't know the incredible importance of V02 max in sports , you should read up on it.
i don't think the defenition of athletic is simply being good at athletics. I've seen guys who were horrible at sports, but were terrific ahtletes in terms of running and jumping. I'm gonna say that Babe Ruth was very good at athleitcs, but wasn't very ahtletic himself.
In the dictionary the definition is what I stated. .Maybe you should ask Websters to change the definition because it contradicts what many sports fans believe it should mean. Babe Ruth is the greatest American athlete ever. He also was actually surprisingly fast.
Are you related to John Scheyer???
To the question whether I'm related to him . I'm Jon Scheyer's great grandmother. No . I just truly believe Scheyer is the victim of negative stereotypes. He won me over when I saw him live at the Meadowlands. Scheyer scored the first 13 points against Xavier and was still outscoring the entire Xavier team for much of the first half.
i don't have my dictionary on me, but when you say "athletic", most people will think things like quickness, jumping, change of direction. WHen you say someone is good at "athletics", that just means they are good in a sport or event. Like I said, I'm not gonna put Steve Nash ahead of Derrick Rose on an ahtleitic list, but he is better at basketball. Being good at sports and being being a great athlete can be two different things.
jwhite53, although I disagree with some of your arguments, I think they're interesting. Yes there is racism in basketball because that's part of our culture. But how does it manifest itself? Here are a few common racial threads that almost always show up when guys are analyzing potential draft choices.
1. White players are only compared with other white guys and Black players are only compared with other black guys.
2. White college players are generally OVER HYPED because there are so few in comparison to the number of outstanding black players. Every now and then it goes the other way. One idiotic example was the downplaying of Hansbrough and comparing him with Mark Madsen, which was foolish. Another great example is burying Luke Harangody of Notre Dame deep into the 2nd round.
But if you look over the history of basketball websites, you will frequently see white guys on the draft board only because they're white. I think Connor Aitchley [spelling?] was constantly on this web site's draft board even though he averaged about 5 ppg and maybe 3 rpg at Texas, and wasn't even on the court at the end of games. The center from Michigan State last year, Goran Suton was another one. Another guy is the Australian Center at Vanderbilt, A.J. Ogilvy, who was listed in the 1st round forever on many websites, even though he isn't much of an NBA prospect. I could go on and on.
3. Black players are frequently described as great athletes while white guys are often described as players with a high basketball IQ. Whenever you see a white guy described as having a "high basketball IQ, it's a code that means he is something less than a great athlete.
Now getting back to John Scheyer, if you asked me last year if he could make it in the NBA I would have laughed. I think the comments and analysis of JoeWolf1 and LLperez22 were right on the money.
Having said that, I'm beginning to change my mind. Jon Scheyer both surprised and impressed me this season with the caliber of his play. If I were creating a draft board, I would put him in the area of 37 to 45 [someplace in the middle of the 2nd round]. Now I think he can make it in the NBA as an 11th or 12th man that helps keep zone defenses honest.
The biggest problem Scheyer will face is bulk. The Duke program clearly doesn't have a high regard for strength training, and it will impact their players on the next level. Some team will take him because he can shoot it and won't turn it over, but if they aren't Golden State bad they won't play him because he will get knocked around like a rag doll. Guards have to be strong enough to absorb bumps, take screens, and not get abused on the block. The positive is that it won't be difficult for him to put on some weight because he will be a blank slate. I wouldn't be surprised if some team takes him almost as a stash pick. Maybe some team takes him in the 2nd round and tells him to go spend a year in Greece and pack on a few pounds playing against grown men. Maybe they give him a three-year deal and basically use the first year as a quasi-redshirt season where they him a few minutes to get beaten up and then introduce him to squats and protein shakes, which is basically what Phoenix did with Goran Dragic, the Mavs did with J.J. Barea, and Houston did with Aaron Brooks as rookies.
Kool Aid drinkers? Sounds like race is YOUR biggest concern, and not in a good way.........
Number one, defense in general is different in college. College, and especially Duke, emphasize team defense, precise rotations, and selective aggression with pressing and traps. They have their perimeter players apply hard pressure to the ball handler and cut off the passing lanes very well. No one said a damn thing about Duke's defense. We are talking about how his skills will translate in the league. As JoeWolf said, you can list off a ton of reasons why former college All-Americans should be drafted, but time and time again, many have been busts. Scheyer is no different. He doesn't have the quickness to keep up, and even if he did, he doesn't have the strength to bother NBA two guards. He's very thin and has put on very little weight in his four years.Kobe? Wade? And if he plays point... the quickness issue becomes more of an issue. He's good at drawing contact in his forays to the basket, but he won't get as many calls, nor will he be facing 18-21 year olds. I just don't see how he's going anywhere near as effective. Ridinour is a starting caliber point guard. Scheyer at best will be a shooting specialist off the bench.
And the greatest American athlete is Michael Phelps. 16 events, 14 gold, 2 bronze.
You have no clue what you are talking about. You obviously assume Scheyer is some sort Redick one dimensional slow white shooting specialist. Scheyer has as much quickness as any guard he's played against this season. For example, against UCONN which has 2 very good guards whom Scheyer schooled , Scheyer was easily as quick, penetrated UCONN's defense off the dribble constantly . "Scheyer at best will be a shooting specialist" ? You mean someone who constantly penetrates with great quickness off the dribble to dish off for his insane A/TO ratio. More proof Scheyer is immensely quicker than he is given credit for is the unusually high number of free throws he averages per game. A slow shooting specialist doesn't draw many fouls. Everything you state about Scheyer is inaccurate. Scheyer against Jerome Dyson shows he has very good strength fighting threw screens and wasn't bothered at all when Dyson attempted to muscle him. Almost everyone of Scheyer's baskets was created by him. I don't care if you list 1,000 College All Americans who weren't successful in the NBA . Scheyer is Scheyer not someone else.
Mkadoza, with one exception, I essentially agree with most of what you said above reference Scheyer. In previous seasons I never considered Jon Scheyer an NBA prospect because of his frail, thin physique and lack of quickness. However, when I watched him play this season, he looked much stronger than he did in the past. I'm not saying he's strong by any means, but he no longer looks so frail, he almost has the appearance that he can hold his own.
As I mentioned in my post above, "jwhite53, Interesting Arguments But ..", I've changed my mind about Scheyer. I now believe he has a chance to become a mid 2nd round choice, and if he gets on the right team, he could become an 11th or 12th man on an NBA team who needs someone to pour in 3 pointers against a zone defense. And if he does make it at the end of the bench, he will be a SG because he doesn't have the quickness to play PG in the pros.
And you can list off as many stats and conclusions you drawn from them. Scheyer is not as quick as Walker or Dyson, first of all. He penetrated of picks and cuts primarily, not off isolations or his first step, second. He's good at drawing contact, but the way in which he draws contact wont be as available to him, because he wont be able to gain the same separation from NBA defenders. Dyson isnt a strong player himself, being an undersized SG (6'3" 180lbs) himself that has put on very little weight since entering school. Dyson has trouble finishing close to the basket for that very reason.
Is Redick still going to the line 7 times a game like he did in college? Morrison got to the line almost 10 times his senior year. Keith Bogans was a PotY candidate in college,. There are tons of players that do things in college that they can't do in the NBA. I understand that you want to take his success in school and assume he'll continue it. People have done that with players all the time. And who knows? Maybe he'll end up the best player in the draft. But he can't be considered a top draft prospect with his very noticable weaknesses from AN NBA STANDPOINT. Awesome college player, but hes not a isolation threat.
Who are you referring to when you say, " You have no clue what you are talking about"? Are you referring to my comments in the post above entitled "jwhite53, Interesting Arguments But .. "?
Even though I don't agree with much of what you stated, I still think you made some very interesting arguments about Scheyer. I also like the fact that you don't want him to be compared with anyone else, nor bogged down with any stereotypes. It's good to see someone who has the ability to think independently, make intelligent arguments, and stand up for what he believes.
I was directing my comment to another poster. I have watched the UConn game tape a number of times. I'm am genuinely surprised how Scheyer was a constant problem for UConn's guards , mainly Dyson. Last season, he had difficulty creating shots . He has improved tremendously and has more opportunity since Henderson and Williams left. Scheyer really worked hard over the summer. He was supposed the play the US Maccabiah team but passed it up. He spent time back home in Chicago playing against NBA players. Another strength Scheyer has , which he didn't have last season is he very quick thinking and has quick hands which allow him to successfully dish off to the open man. He showed flashes last season . Against UNC he scored 24 points on only 7 field goal attempts plus foul shots. He shot 7 for 7 , 3 of which were 3's. His only miss was foul shot (7 for 8). Not a bad performance against the national champs who currently have 2 guards from that lineup playing in the NBA.
first of all..why are u asking who will be the better pro? Ridnour has been in the league a few years.. We've seen whut he can do..He's had a solid career... i think Scheyer has a chance.... if Chris Quinn can make a
nba roster.. Scheyer has chance..he's bigger and has playmaking skills.. Quinn is only a shooter..
I think I already clarified it when I said UNC last year could not play defense =\
Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington were average defenders at best.
Not taking anything away from Scheyer, I just don't think he'll have a major impact on the NBA level. It would do him best if he goes overseas instead of becoming a journeyman in the NBA
I find it laughable how some posters such as D7H7N will say anything to belittle Scheyer . If Ellington and Lawson are below average defenders, why were they drafted so high? So if Scheyer has a very good game , it is only because the guards he scorched were poor defenders? Why should he go overseas? Scheyer is getting better each game . Tonight he scored 31 against a good defensive team Iowa State.
Are you serious?
1. They came off a National Championship
2. Lawson had a break out year; he's fast as &$#%#&@! hell, one of the most efficient PGs to ever play the game.
3. In 2008, Ellington was a Early to Mid 2nd Round prospect at best. He came back to UNC to boost his stock. Ellington being drafted in late 1st round is not high lol.
4. Also Lawson was drafted at 18th, that's not that high; right outside of the lottery picks.
Anyways, it seems like I'm arguing against a brick wall.
Jwhite, I know you know your ACC and Duke bball, but Iowa St is only better than Colorado in the Big 12 and isn't a particularly good defensive team who despite a decent non conference record will maybe win 4 or 5 conference games
According to the Pomeroy rankings of today, the Big 12 is the second ranked conference overall . It has 3 teams ranked in the top 8 in team defense. Iowa State is ranked ahead of 4 Big 12 teams Nebraska, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Texas A&M in team defense.
um i wouldnt say that 18 and 28 are high.. Yeah it's the first round, but it's well outside the lottery
Scheyer won't be much of an NBA player probably...I see his ceiling about what Chris Quinn's is. That's a 12th man and shooting specialist. Quinn had a similarly outstanding Senior season to what Scheyer is enjoying right now as well, and Quinn got bigger (even though he's weak for NBA standards) in his last year the same way Scheyer has and developed into a decent defender too....Quinn has carved out a minor niche in the NBA despite being one of it worse players, but he's still in the NBA on a contract so he's defied all odds for the most part...I don't think Scheyer is going to be much of a player though. He'll have to fight for whatever roster spot he can get year in and year out...
Yeah, but this is non-conference play. I'm saying this from someone who has been watching Iowa State and the Big 12 since it was the Big 8. Your guy, Sheyer, had a great game, he is a terrific college player, but Iowa State isn't that good, and they certainly are going to get 80+ hung on them when conference play starts. You can look up all the stats you want on that one, but you are not going to confince me Iowa State is a good defensive team because they held the likes of Chicago State,North Dakota, Tennessee State, St Louis and Mississippi Valley state to under 60 points.