Old guys. . .
Personally, I hate hearing about how Iverson isnt going to make it because of his age. JKidd and GHill are both like 37 and are very productive. Neither one looks like they are about to retire. That means AI can do it for 3 or 4 more years. That was just a little rant on my part. Here is the topic:
In the past 10 years, who has been the most productive "old guy." I dont want to hear abut Kareem or Parish. It was a different game back then. I wanna know what old men have been really good in this new "athlete dominated" NBA.
Personally, I think that Kidd and Hill need a mention at least.
karl malone had pretty good numbers until he got to LA
Here's the difference. Jason Kidd and Grant Hill have ALWAYS had excellent fundamentals. They were both very good athletes, but when that left them... They could still play. High fundamentals, an all around game and a high IQ have kept them in the league.
Iverson on the other hand... His game has always been about his exceptional speed, quickness, first step and athleticism. When you get older, you lose all of that... That's a fact. Iverson's game has never been about fundmentals and I wouldn't say he has a high IQ either. I just don't see him being able to play as long as a Jason Kidd, Grant Hill or even a Chauncey Billups will be able to play. He's 6' 0" (Maybe even shorter) and weighs 165 lbs. He can't take beatings like he used to... His body can't heal like it used to. He doesn't possess that exceptional speed, quickness or athleticism anymore. No way he plays 3-4 more years in the NBA at a high level. His body, game and mentality just aren't suited for it.
As far as an old guy who's been productive... I'll go with Dikembe Mutumbo. Before the knee injury ended his career, he was still a pretty solid defensive presence and rebounder playing behind Ming.
ray allen we still be pretty good i think he could be like reggie miller back in the playoffs ala
I got what ya saying tezo and to an extent, I agree with ya. However, I think that Iverson has fundamentals and BBIQ. He just never really used it much because he was quick. You cant, IMO, play for 15 years in the league and not have good BBIQ or good fundamentals. Im not saying AI can average 25 a game or anything but I think he can still start. Just like Kidd and Hill, his minutes will have to be cut and his numbers will drop, but he is better than most other options.
He isn't nearly as old as Kidd or Hill, but I think he will be a good player for a while because of his jump shot. Last year he set a career high for fg%.
I agree with you. Iverson has played at a high level since 1996. That doesn't happen without having a good IQ and fundamentals. I just think his athleticism, first step, quickness, speed and overall talent trumped his fundamentals and IQ by far. Those are the things that made him the successful player he was. That's what made him so great considering he's only 6' 0" and 165 lbs.
Iverson is a scorer... A unique one at that. He no longer has that super quick first step or ability to turn the corner. He no longer has that ability to get to the free-throw line or finish like he used to on fast breaks. He no longer can run you ragged around the court through screens. How's he supposed to elevate and get those shots off like he used to? He can't play that reckless style like he used to because he can't come back as fast from injuries. He was out nearly the whole training camp with Memphis due to a hamstring injury. The season before that, he started the season injured with Denver. He doesn't heal like he used to and he's not a big guy at all. Not being mean, but his body currently has no definition. He looks soggy. I'm honestly fearful of him getting hurt. I just don't think his body is fit enough to take those beatings.
Jason Kidd is 6' 4" 212. Hill is 6' 8" 225. Those dudes are huge. They're big and still in great shape. They bring so much to a team other than scoring. They can pass, rebound and defend some. They've adapted their games to play at an old age, while Iverson hasn't. They have not good, but excellent fundamentals and IQ. They bring excellent leadership to the table. You just can't say that about Iverson. I hope he proves me wrong because I'm not ready to say goodbye to him.
I agree with ya on that and I just have one more question and we can leave it at that. Do you think AI can run you ragged for 20-25 minutes a game?? Start him, let him have a huge first quarter then use him wisely after that. If he comes out and gets a quick 10, people are going to respect him when he as the ball. After than, he can sue the fact that people are gong to respect him to create for others. I think he can be the same AI, to an extent, for about 20 minutes. Anything more than that, and he will start to hurt ya.
I honestly think the only thing that limits Iversons effectiveness is his size. When shorter than average players lose that elite level quickness their defense suffers the most. I think Iverson can adapt his offensive game to the sixers, but he needs to get back into condition. Like Tezo said, Kidd is a big guard. He still can rebound and pass well, but he cant guard quicker players anymore, and doesnt finish at the basket as well as he used to. Same with Hill.
The best old guy was Kareem btw. I dont care if you think he couldn't keep up. He was still 7'1" and had the most unguardable shot in history. Thats like saying Tim Duncan shouldn't be productive. As "athlete dominant" as the NBA is now, the best players are the most skilled. Kobe, Wade, Lebron (as physically dominant he is, his ball handling, court vision, and floor game is extremely advanced.) Dirk, Duncan, Carmelo, Durant.
It seemed like you missed some parts of the post. I asked for old guys, probably 33+, in the past 10 years. I even said not Kareem or Parish.
Iverson might have a huge first quarter offensively, but how many would he give up to the quick guard that's crossing him over or the big guard that's banging him? It's about who you can defend in the NBA. Considering the way Iverson plays, I think he could be effective with 20-25 minutes per game. The problem is, he still thinks he's the old AI... Which he's not.
If he can adapt his game, then I think he can play another 3-4 years.
And I think we should throw Juwan Howard out there as an old guy who's contributing. Who ever would've thought he'd be the only player from the fab 5 still in the NBA?
And I guess you missed my point. Theres no player that was as good that late into his career. He was the epitome of adapting his skills and playing efficiently with his diminished skills. Being the second best player on an elite, championship team in the twilight of his career is extremely impressive. There isn't a center in the NBA today that could play with Kareem at 33+. And just because you want disrespect everyone who played basketball prior to your birth doesn't mean I have to comply. Here, to play along, its Steve Nash.
That wasnt my point. Everyone knows who was great back then. I never cut down a player just because he played a long time ago. Those guys have been established. We know who they are. Nobody talks much about the old guys who have played well in the past ten years. Also, you dont have to play along. You can talk to someone without being a jerk. You misunderstood what I ment by my statements and you took offense to it. Hence, you started acting like an a'ss. Come on man.
Karl Malone was terrific and played until he was 40. Even his last season he was very good with about 14 and 8 I believe on a stacked team. He dropped 30 in a playoff game and was huge defensively getting the lakers to the finals.
Jason Kidd--while his speed was an asset to him as a pro throughout his career his best qualities are his basketball IQ, timing, awareness, leadership, size, and handle. He could easily play for another 3 years.
Grant Hill-- Grant hill is remarkable! One has to wonder if all the time off from his ankle surgeries has extended his career--he has far less mileage than someone like Kobe does...
...which brings me to
Kobe Bryant-- because he is continuously developing his game he can find a way to be productive until he is 40. His new post up game will help him as he gets older. Also a speedy point guard who can create offense for him will be beneficial (i know, its not in the cards for PGs aren't utilized in the triangle bla bla bla) but Kobe can still shoot the lights out and with a great point guard to create for him it will add years to his game as he ages.
Michael Jordan-- (see above) same as Kobe but slightly better for I dont see Kobe averaging 20+ 5, 5, when he is 41-- time off of the game hurt Jordan initially with conditioning but definitely helped him by giving him extra mileage. Kobe wont have this advantage. Kobe could average 15, 4, 4 at 40 years old-- but not 20 5 5
Dikembe Mutombo-- he stayed two or three years too long in the league but i think at 37/38 he was still very productive. I remember he had a few amazing games rebounding and blocking shots in his late thirties. Also, chances are he was older than documented for his country didn't keep birth records, so 37/38 might have actually been 41/42. He could have very well retired at a biological age of 46.
Karl Malone-- he was very productive until he went to LA--this is so true.
Clifford Robinson-- I remember he was on the Nets in his late 30s and still rebounded and hit some crucial 3s
Reggie Miller-- age didnt stop his sweet shot until his last season
Shaq-- he is productive only by the mere fact that he is insanely large and strong and has a great close range game. But he can't play the minutes that the rest of this group does.
Ray Allen-- like Reggie Miller he could be productive until he is 40--i can see that...
Steve Nash-- 3 mvps?? seems crazy but it can happen. And personally I like Jason Kidd better but this guy defies what is traditional for smaller point guards and could be as productive as... --->
John Stockton--was old as dust (or at least he looked like it--his shorts didn't help) but still was productive. Insane amount of career assists!
Dirk Nowitski--look this might come as a surprise because he is only 31 and seems to have lost a step but honestly, he is so skilled and proficient at shooting and so large that he can at least be as productive as Clifford Robinson was as he gets older. As I said, Dirk may seem to have lost a step but if you remember Dirk 10 years ago he kinda always looked heavy footed and awkward. eh i could be wrong...
Chauncey Billups-- I can see him play for another 5 years. he will be 34 this year so 39 seems like an appropriate retiring age. But i dont see him being as good as Kidd, once he is Kidd's age.
The ALL DECLINING TEAM:
Dwyane Wade-- plays too hard with his body to play into his late 30s.. if he changes his game and shoots better he definitely could play until he is 40, but i doubt he will.
Josh Smith-- when athleticism is your claim to fame you fade as your athleticism does. He is 23 and I give him 7 more years of being productive for his team. Once he hits 30 I just dont see him helping unless he develops some traditional PF skills.
Elton Brand-- its weird to put him on this list because he isn't dependent on athleticism--he never was. But his injury has shown that at age 30 he is looking like his prime came and gone in a Clippers uniform.
Yao Ming-- injuries/ size
Manu Ginobili-- he looks like he should retire TODAY. What happened to him? wait, i am just seeing his highlights from the Spurs/Bobcats game--glimpses of greatness... please come back to form Ginobili you were so good!!!
Amare Stoudemire-- (see Josh Smith)
Greg Oden-- if he keeps getting hurt he might be worse off than Yao even... sucks because i really thought he was coming around. But who knows maybe it could benefit him like it benefited Grant Hill. But the thing is he kinda always looks awkward on the court... He doesn't seem as sturdy as a Mutombo or Brook Lopez..
Steve Francis--wow he just fell off so fast! has to be a mix of his food allergies and injuries but still, there was a time when i thought he was going to be one of the best point guards ever.
And thats all I cant think of at the moment. Who am I missing though? Please add to either list and disagree too if you like... thanks
Dang man. Great post.
Its a great initial post idea by you. It got me thinking--
And I know I am missing players but its the first few that came to mind.
Haha. I had 2 come to mind and you had like 20.