have there ever been 2 players who have dominated college sports while winning many personal awards and team awards and at the same time having such a big mystery about if they can do much in the pro world?...i cant remeber any other player in either sport that was even near the mystery of these 2(before tyler got drafted)
I remember Charlie Ward had a similar situation with football, but he definitely wasn't as dominant as Tebow cumulatively throughout his career.
i was thinking that but he didnt dominate or wasnt as hyped as long as those 2 and he would have went pretty high in the draft if he didnt let it be known he was gonna do football
they both have had similar college careers,both have been looked at as not having much upside at the next level...I think Tyler will have the better pro career...I dont think Tebow will much success,as least not as a quarterback...he might end some sort of hybrid fullback/wildcat type of back
This is unrelated to basketball, but football is very much a copy cat sport and with the emergence of the wild cat offense, I think Tim Tebow has more of a chance to succeed as a pro now, than he would have 10 or even 5 years ago. Brad Smith of Missouri made a successful move from QB to WR and so did Antwan Randal El, Tebow isn't quick enough to be a WR, but he could play RB, FB, TE, and throw passes. He won't be a top draft pick, but he has a real chance to succeed.
As for Hansbrough, he still has some work to do on his jumper, but if he improves that he could have a solid Matt Harpring type career as a tough nosed reserve and sometimes starter. Hansbrough is also bigger and more athletic than Harpring so that would work to his advantage too.
basketball is also a copy cat sport
these r my observations/predictions of NBA GMs
and with the emergence of Russell Westbrook/Derrick Rose u will begin to see a lot
of big athletic guards (Jrue Holiday was an attempt at that)
some guys r still learning the position which is unreal as opposed to the 80s where hybrid guards were rare
also Ricky Rubio is a tall guard, I predict there will be an influx of very tall//small athletic PGs
this will lead to 80s style fastbreak basketball, yet with better athletes :D
this will be in an effort to make easy transition buckets (remember Rondo vs Rose last playoffs)
as opposed to halfcourt dump it into a young dominant big man and shoot the 3
but some teams (Minnesota) may eventually have a dominant big and a
non shooting fastbreak point guard
the plan in the NBA seems to be to have the nonshooter learn how to shoot a pull up shot of some sort
when they get to the NBA, to form an "unstoppable" player (tyreke evans, rondo, westbrook, rose)
Overall i think basketball is a copycat sport, everyone is looking 4 the next Shaq, the next Yao Ming, the next Kobe Bryant, and yes of course the next Michael Jordan ;D
good observations Okeke,
Here is my thing though, big athletic point guards are not all that common. I think it will be hard to find an influx, because from a purely chance based standpoint, a 6'4'' 200 pound athlete with amazing speed and who chose basketball over football to become a top notch pro prospect is very rare. Of this point guard heavy class, Jonny Flynn, Brandon Jennings, Steph Curry, Jeff Teague, Ty Lawson, Beaubois, Beverly, Mills, and Rubio (tall, yes, but not a great athlete )which is the vast majority of the point guards who entered this years draft are smaller, thin, or shooters, unlike the Rondo/Rose model of point guard. You may be right about the usage of those big guards when they do enter the league, but point guards of that size and athletic combination aren't very common so I don't think a major influx of those type of players will happen anytime soon.
tru i havent watched too much of tebow but from what i seen hes not a bad qb. as far as the nba guards they arent much different then the past since rose is 6'2 or 3 as well as westbrook and thats pretty much how tall alot of past pg have been. the only difference is rose is more athletic and stronger then other past pg but pretty much point guards are the same.. people thought there woul dbe more magic johnsons and penny hardaway's but as history has shown thats just not gonna be the case. just more exceptions
tall points are popping up every where
in the NCAA they are trying to teach taller players to handle the point to increase their mismatch potential in the league
some of my favorites are JP Prince, Jrue Holiday, Tyreke Evans, Evan Turner, Terrico White, and Malcolm Snaer
even Ebanks and 6'8 Tristan Thompson have experimented running the point at least in preseason
but Europe is where I see the influx of tall point guards will come from here is Antoine Diots profile:
2009 U-20 European Championship Review: Guards
September 17, 2009
A reasonably athletic point guard with a nice frame, good size and speed, who displays great range on his shot and a quick and high release. He’s also able to create his own shots off the dribble, but unlike his teammate Edwin Jackson, he lacks better shot selection, which diminishes his efficiency. Actually during this tournament he took more shots from beyond the arc, and at a slightly higher percentage (44.4%), than 2-point field goals (43.6%). Diot is able to slash and finish successfully at the rim, but mostly stops halfway to shoot. He is also a very good passer, taking advantage of his good court vision and ball handling skills. Nonetheless he doesn’t seem to be able to control the game and organize a decent team offense on a regular basis, as he seems to be playing continuously in overdrive.
Even though he had several strong games, his offensive contribution wasn’t always that consistent. On the other hand he contributed quite consistently in rebounding, catching an average of 6 rebounds per game. As well as dishing out 5 assists per game. Also defensively he’s quite aggressive and intense, as he has decent lateral footspeed and also quick hands going for steals (averaged 2.4 a game).
Diot may have some NBA potential, as big point guards are always en vogue. The way the game is played in the NBA might actually suit better his style of play. He’ll have to deliver at the senior level first, though, playing for Le Mans.
Nemanja Bjelica, Dario Dasic, Nando De Colo already got drafted, Victor Claver is a fluid Turkoglu type
Antoine Diot, Casspi (sacramento Kings)
the influx has already begun
on the other hand small athletic type PGs will be used to counteract there slowfootedness
Kemba Walker, Sherron Collins, Brandon Knight is a high school SG/PG and already has an NBA body
Strengths: Diot is a long point guard with excellent decision-making ability and control of the game. His style of play is similar to Theo Papaloukas of Greece, because hes very crafty with the dribble and seems to slip by defenders. He is very heady, and makes his teammates better with the pass. Hes great with ball fakes, and his long wingspan helps him get off shots around the basket and disrupt passes on defense. Hes a consistent shooter from the corners and can hit the three. Hes a reliable ball handler and a team leader on and off the court.
Weaknesses: His athleticism is the biggest concern at the next level. His foot speed is certainly average, but not as bad as some report, but his vertical leap is quite small. His height and length make up for a lot against his age group, but this wont take him to the NBA. He often gets beat off the dribble by quicker players, but has the size to guard the 2 so maybe he can adjust. Some NBA scouts believe hes not a legitimate prospect for the NBA, but he has the basketball intelligence to make it and hes still young.
tru in college but most of those guys will play sf or pf once they get to the nba. in college alot of people play out of position because they dont have a guy who plays that position good enough to play it. i evans had a pg that was good at ohio state then he wouldnt play it as much..ditto with other school. as far as Tristan Thompson he is not nor will he ever be a pg or sg and maybe not a sf. i watched him play in vegas and some fro findlay and if you have seen him play you would understand that he will never in his life play guard. ebanks also will never be a pg
But like Quincey said too, the concept of a tall point guard isn't a new one. I was mainly referring to the Rose/Westbrook/Rondo style player. The 6'4'' super athlete type. Yes, Holiday and Evans in this class fit the criteria, but they are the minority. I'm not saying when those players come around they aren't a hot commodity, but of the guys you listed, Evan Turner will be an NBA sg as will Terrico White (1.2 apg). You are right, the guard positions are getting taller, but you can't say that Evan Turner will be an NBA point guard. Like I said, I agree, the guard positions are getting taller, but I don't consider Rose/Westbrooke/Rondo tall guards, I consider them supreme athletes more than anything, and i don't see an influx in those type of players because they are not all that common.
I know that but they are the most extreme cases of potential mismatches, at the very least they are diversifying there games like the European style, just look at Hedo Turkoglu they will not guard the PG
but at the NCAA level these kids should be learning to pass and shoot
pick and roll bcuz that is the secret to creating points at the NBA level,
NCAA will never produce a tall point guard the caliber of Europeans unless it is a rare case of a true pass first playground baller like Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson those 2 played the game on the "streets" with older guys and learned to pass sort of like Boris Diaw how he was a little kid older players woldnt let him shoot
Jason Kidd is the same way lol
America will continue to produce three point shooters and dunkers,
while Europe will produce allaround skill players
but Americans are trying to close the gap
yeah alot of people think pg have gotten taller but they have pretty much remained around the same height for a long time
check each year it pretty much doesnt get taller then 6'3 with shoes
tall Europeans are very common
actually thats tru euros have taller pg over there but most of them wouldnt be able to play pg in the nba they end up getting moved to sf sg etc. like toni kukoc...they have alot of lamar odom type pg. not as tall most of the time but can play multiple positions over there but wouldnt be pg over here
that is why I said that there will be more and more getting drafted
or at the least getting noticed by NBA scouts and GMs, even one author said tall point guards are always "en vogue"
nando de colo (already drafted, he's pretty nice)
NBA Comparison: Penny Hardaway
Nemanja Bjelica (Small forward)
my point was that there are a lot of tall versatile European players that are being drafted (influx)
and that NBA is a copycat league, tall Euros and short athletic NCAA ballers (influx)
thats because the tall euro big men are better prepared and better then the players in the us because they start playing pro at a young age and have alot more pratice time then the hs/college big men. plus all of europe is allllllllllllllllot bigger then the usa
Nando De Colo is actually one of my favorite Euro players right now, of course the Spurs got another 2nd round steal, but I love his versitility, he'll be a good player when he comes over.
That is very true, there were some amazing success stories of players coming out of high school, but I think as a whole it hurt the development of American basketball players, there were a lot of players with great potential that declared early, and didn't quite live up, compared to Europe they had continual tuteledge and there are a lot more pro leagues to go to if they can't cut it in the top one, as compared to America where if you lose out in the NBA( in talking about pre NBDL era ) there is a big drop off to the USBL and other american leagues and it's hard to get back to the top. I think in the early 2000's it was more than just Europe catching up, I think American basketball lost its foothold too and it took until the last couple years for us to start heading back up.
i doubt if more get drafted though..i think it will be about the same..just the best ones. the second round will be full of them since you can leave them overseas for awhile then bring them over but first round will continue to just have a couple and be mostly american players. alot of the americans that didnt make it out of hs just werent as good as some scouts made them out to be or as good as they thought they were.
Europeans still have a foothold in the IQ/development aspect, there is a sharp contrast in IQ vs athleticism
eg Rodney Williams (Minnesota) nice kid though, I am sorry I have got to go study and improve my own bball IQ
eg practice :D
I'm out like Frederic Weis peace
I think this is a fascinating topic, why were 2 guys who dominated their sport in college, ranked so low in the draft?
First, both guys got a lot of mileage out of overpowering their opponents and everyone knows that will not happen in the pros.
Second, if you look at the history of Heisman Trophy winners, they are almost always quarterbacks and a large percentage of them were failures in the NFL. Why? I'm not sure, but I suspect it has something to do with being in the right system in college and that didn't translate to the next level.
I think Hansbrough will do much better in the NBA than most draft forecasters predicted. No, he won't be an All Star, but I think he'll be a very productive player and a guy any coach would love to have on his team.
As for Tebow, I don't think he has the requisite skills to be an NFL quarterback and that's probably why both ESPN NFL Draft experts predict he'll go in the 4th or 5th round. I happen to think Tebow will go in the 2nd or 3rd round. Why? As several have already mentioned earlier in this thread, he would be the perfect guy for the Wildcat.
In addition, I don't think we give guys who dominate like Tebow enough credit. They are special people and great leaders, you can't judge them the way you do most normal players. Just like Hansbrough, I think any coach in the NFL would love to have a Tim Tebow on his team.
Hansbrough: He plays hard, and is physical and underrated athletically, but he doesn't really have great post moves. In college he relied on being stronger than his defender, which he can't in the NBA. The has too low of a release point on his shot. He also isn't a great rebounder or defender. He also doesn't have the physical gifts or feel for the game to have much upside. He will need to develop a really good shot to have a long career.
Tebow: Know this is not about football, but I will give my thoughts. He really doesn't have NFL quarterback arm strength. Chad Pennington lasted awhile, and Vince Young has had some success, but I don't know about Tebow. He also isn't special athletically like a Brad Smith or Pat White. He may get some goal line snaps in the wildcat a few years, but he will be out of the league quickly if he doesn't change positions to a tight end or fullback maybe. He isn't as good of a runner as people say. McCoy ran for more yards than Tebow did last year. He isn't fast for he NFL, and he won't bowl over NFL defenders.
B-ball fan, I think you made some excellent points on both guys. As for Hansbrough, even though I agree with your analysis, you simply cannot measure him on those attributes. When he was in college, Hansbrough was constantly double teamed and was always the focal point of Carolina's opponents. And believe me, even though it was at the collegiate level, some of those guys guarding him were great athletes. At least in the NBA he won't be double teamed and no one's expecting him to be a star, which means the bar isn't set very high.
In my opinion, TH is one of those rare guys who maximizes everything they have in terms of their physical talent and drive, meaning he will always find a way to succeed. I think Hansbrough will be a guy who plays 20 to 24 minutes per game, scores around 12-15 ppg, and grabs approximately 5-6 rpg. I would truly be surprised if he doesn't play at that level.
Hansbrough is a throwback player
i used to not think tyler was that good but the mor ei watched him the more i liked him. at this level the height thing doesnt mean too much if they arent good and there are alot of big guys who arent that good. when you go hard and have ability (ala barkley,carl laundry, b-easy) and know how to get off youre shot then you wont have to worry about 7footers. no one even worries about the shawn bradleys and manute bols much on the nba level. college and hs maybe but not nba