Players with potential
Is anybody else sick and tired of these GM's out thinking themselves and drafting player with potential instead of player with more talent and a little less potential? Every year some guy gets drafted because he has tons of potential to be great over a more polished guy with a little less potential than him. It's starting to seem like more and more those guys with alot of potential are busts and only sticking around cuz coaches think they can get something out of them. I one of those people that thinks talent outweighs potential any day it's less headache on the coach and the play with less potential end up developing more cuz you can give him mins and not worry about alot of mistakes.
This is the best post you have ever made.
Gallinari over Gordon, Oden ove Durant, Tyrus Thomas over Roy, Marvin Williams over Paul and D. Williams, Telfair over Jameer Nelson, DARKO over Wade Melo and Bosh, Nickoloz Tskitishvili over Caron Butler! This is just a couple examples of GM's out thinking themselves. Anybody got anymore examples?
thanks butidonthavemoney. You just earned a point!
randolph over ryan anderson
bayles over courtney lee
deandre jordan over cdr
"randolph over ryan anderson
bayles over courtney lee
deandre jordan over cdr"
While I agree with this topic...I'm going to say every single one of these examples is wrong.
Anderson, Lee and CDR will be good though.
What are these guy getting paid for they just make a very easy job hard it's almost common sense
Bayless is better than courtney lee sorry!
bibby, carter, Lafrentz, Jamison, J-Dub,
and that kid from Inglewood. what was his name?
oh yeah Paul Pierce
and theres the whole in youre arguement..so far lees career looks 2 times better then bayless career but you are saying bayless is better because of what..........potential right??
no he was better in college and played better competition. bayless hasnt gotten mins in the nba but he has more talent than lee. nobody would agree that lee was better than bayless coming out of school
gm's draft on potential because the whole draft is based on potential. it's not like you get to watch a player play a full nba season before you draft. what about amare stoudamire and dirk nowitzki? those guys were "potential" picks that weren't proven. also, there's a lot of bayless hate, but the guys was "proven". he was a top player in the pac-10. try to turn eric gordan and courtney lee into a pg and see how well they do. sometimes, it's a fit rather than skill level.
im not saying you dont get lucky but most of the time they get it wrong and the excuse is any gm would have made the same choice. Clearly you can see some players are more skilled and ready than others
yeah but that goes against youre point of drafting off of potenial..i cant say bayless is better because he hasnt done anything to warrent that in the nba even when he has been given time...i do think he has more potenial the lee but hes not qas good right now untill he shows he...he cant even beat blake out of a spot right now..even though blake is no slouch..if you arent picking a guy off of what he can do here and now then you are drafting them off potential which is why ome of these players were drafted over other more established guys...and proving to be one of the bet players in college doesnt always equal to being one of the best pplayers or being good in the nba...like i said before untill a guy proves it in the nba im not gonna say someone i better then a player who is proving it
the nba i full of guys who were "PROVEN" in college but couldnt duplicate it in the pros like harold minor,khalid reeves, ik duigo..etc
"the nba i full of guys who were "PROVEN" in college but couldnt duplicate it in the pros like harold minor,khalid reeves, ik duigo..etc"
that's my point dude. the whole nba draft is based on potential. there are no sure things. bayless was a top player in a top conference and he's not getting on the court. to me, that is the closest thing to "proven". but i will say this, bayless is a sg. that's why he was bummed when he was traded from the pacers to the blazers. the blazers got a ton of wings and drafted him to convert him. louis williams and monte ellis were the same way and they are just now starting to see success.
If you CANT DOMINATE COLLEGE how can you DOMINATE in the LEAGUE? Its dumb to draft players on potential over production it may be some cases but its more cases with drafting off of potential
i know my point was i can see why they draft players off of potential..sometimes u have to go with proven stars but most times you have to go with potential if its obvious and sometimes its still not gonna work out..my point with bayless is he isnt better then lee now because he hasnt proven he is in the nba reguardless what he did in hs or college
im not talking about now im talking about coming in to the league. lee couldnt touch bayless and the guy produces when he gets mins he just hasnt got the chance they are trying to make him change his whole game around
by year 3 lou was puttin gup pretty nice numbers..11ppg( said year three cuz he came straight from hs instead of going to college like bayless)...as far as dominate define dominate..do you mean just scoring?..rebounding?..defense/..be cause there are some d2 players who came into the leauge and played pretty well( ben wallace)..i think you can do well in the leauge without dominating in college since some highschoolers have dominated hs then dominated in the leauge....there would be alot of gms kicking there selfs if they said...imma pick this guy who dominated or played very very well in college against better comp then this kid from hs who dominated against inferior competition
If you CANT DOMINATE COLLEGE?
Reddick dominated college, if I'm not mistaken, John Stockton did not
if u can score/pass and defend a position at a high level,
then u can play in the NBA
IMPO IQ is underrated
he doesnt produce much when he gets minutes..every once in awhile yeah..and did you watch lee when he was in college?..20pts 5 reb a game is pretty nice..and the pac 10 although talented on offense has never been known to be a defense of conference....just because they have more talented offensive players doesnt mean they have better defenders
exactly...if it went by just if you dominated college then harangody would have probably went 3rd behind hansborough and blake
im saying head and shoulders above the competion. reddick was a good system player we knew he couldnt do it in the league. I said a high skill level and a good bball IQ makes a good player not potential. Gerald Green is potential Roy is a skilled player that people said his ceiling wasnt that high but we know how that turned out. Atlanta took a 6th man over CP3 because of that DAMMN "P" word
There really isn't a right or wrong way to draft. Some would rather take proven others are intrigued by potential.
I think something that isn't talked about much is work ethic & desire/motivation. It is probably nearly impossible for a GM or scout to really know how a players' mindset is. Some players get in the league and are satisfied with making a couple million and quit working hard. Other players are just naturally lazy. Some players don't eat right. Some players really don't care about winning. There is a lot that goes into why some players succeed & why others don't. This is what makes the draft truly a crapshoot.
Hindsight is 50/50
exactly..you have to draft over potential and off of what they did in college..you not gonna draft a guy who dominated in college if you see they dont have much upside over a guy who might not have dominated but they have alot of upside and have alot of nba skill in there game..if you go one way or the other as a gm then you are gonna get fired very soon
I'm sorry, but saying Courtney Lee is better than Bayless is retarded. Bayless plays on a STACKED Blazers squad. When he gets minutes he puts up numbers. When you adjust their minutes to average up Bayless eats his lunch.
This seems like an oversimplified topic for something that is exactly the opposite. Like juves said, the whole draft is based on "potential" because none of the players have proven they can dominate at the NBA level, what with not playing in it and all. If a player is dominant in college or in Europe, does that mean they will dominate in the NBA? It depends. If a college player shows shortcomings in college or in Europe, does that mean that they will fail to be successful? It depends. As a matter of fact, just discussing "potential v. talent" (and by talent, I assume you mean skills because a player wouldn't be considered to have potential if he wasn't talented) is a flawed argument, because it fails to take into account the players individual mind frame, where they played, how they were utilized, how hard they work, if they have strengths that arent been accentuated by the play style, and so on.
You just have to evalute each player individually, not by comparing them to their draft classmates. Technically, by this way of thinking, Okafor should have been taken before Howard, Morrison warranted a top 3 pick, and Raef LaFrentz was far more likely to succeed than Dirk Nowitzki. What about teams that pass up on a high potential pick because a 'surer thing' was on the board? In the 2004 draft alone, Araujo before Iguodala, Luke Jackson before Andris Biedrins and Al Jefferson, Kirk Snyder before JR and Josh Smith, a ton of players picked before Trevor Ariza. In 05 Ike Diogu before Andrew Bynum; Amir Johnson, Monta Ellis, Lou Williams, Andrey Blatche and Marcin Gortat all taken after Antoine Wright, Joey Graham, Wayne Simian and Luther Head. It works both ways. Thats why scouting is an extremely difficult task because its very easy to be wrong, regardless of what skill you value, because it always come down to the player. And thats something we have no control over.
And what made Reddick such a system player? He dominated at every level of competition, was a high school all american, and the second all time leading scorer in the ACC history. That sounds like lottery pick "talent". Same can be said about Hansbrough, except hes the #1 scorer in ACC history.
Rafael Araujo over Andre Iguodala is classic to me
No, it's really not. At pg he's got to split minutes with Blake and Miller, and at the 2 he's got to contend with Roy, Webster, Fernandez and Outlaw. 3 of those 4 shift back and forth between the 2 and 3. Fernandez plays behind Outlaw and b!tches about his minutes. Outlaw gets injured, Fernandez gets minutes and has a big game. There's only so many minutes to go around. It's hard to get minutes when you're caught up in the numbers game. When he gets minutes. He puts up numbers. That's that simple.
whiteflash- one more thing... Last season per 48 minutes: Courntey Lee shot a higher % from the field, from 3 point range, & the free throw line than Bayless. Lee averaged 16 pts 4 rebounds 2 asst 2 steals 2 TO Bayless averaged 17 pts 4 rebounds 6 ast 1 steal 4 TO
So how does Bayless eat his lunch? Plus factor in that Lee was starting most of the season playing against other starters. Meanwhile Bayless would come in & play against 2nd or 3rd string guys.
Dude, Bayless was the Vegas summer league MVP as a rookie and led the league in scoring. There's obviously a difference between summer league ball and the season, but it illustrates my point. I had done my math wrong, so you're right, the #'s are about the same. Even so, when Bayless was given more minutes when someone went down last season [sorry, can't remember who] he was puting up better numbers than Lee. If Bayless were with the Magic and Lee was with the Blazers last season we'd have all forgotten about Lee 'cause he'd never have gotten off the bench.
before miller was there bayless didnt play much..im pretty sure if lee was on portland he would get more minutes and produce more then bayless is. lee was playing behind better players then steve blake and still earned minutes and even started..and with blake and miller starting bayless should be producing more yet he still isnt..you can say bayless is better and give every excuse in the world but untill he proves it then its just hollow words..no different then me saying deandre jordan is better then greg oden when the proof says other wise
Also, Steve Blake has started for a couple of NBA teams. You can't act like the guy's a slouch.
no he had a couple of good games but didnt put up better numbers then lee..go to nba.com and check it out..also it doesnt matter what you do in summer leauge because most of the guys there either wont be in the nba or get zero time in the nba other then the highly drafted rookies and the second year players. its nust like playing in midmajor college game..and thats why people are getting so high on him..not saying blake is a slouch but neither is billups but you see lawson makes denver give him time...need to stop with the excuses ..if a player is good enough he will take minutes from people and bayless just isnt that guy right now...like i said lee is better and theres zero proof other wise..
Did you really just compare the summer league to mid major college ball? Bayless gets time. Lawson is Denvers only other real option at pg and Billups is old and needs rest. Bayless has 2 proven vets who produce in front of him. In the time he gets he puts up numbers. For someone who claims to have played overseas you sure don't seem to understand basketball..
thats when you know someone isnt as good as the other..people start giving excuses" well if he were playing here, or if he got more minutes, or in college or summer leauge or back in highschool or jr high..lol"...and if i had wings i could fly...in reality you have to earn the minutes you get they arent handed to you because of what you did back in college..many good college players come into the leauge and just cant cut it till years down the line
yep i sure did...you have a couple of lotto picks on the team(like college basketball) then you have a bunch of guys who wont make a nba roster(college basketball)..go check out the rostor of each summer leauge team.....bayless has showed he can be a star against low level competition but when it comes to the big show he has upper bowel seast
Those rosters are filled out with other young NBA players, rookies and camp invitees. There are maybe two kids on each roster that are mid major grads. Everyone out there is competing for a job, and they're all playing their a$$es off. Saying it's like a mid major game shows you have NO IDEA of what you're talking about.
my point being is just because bayless plays well there doesnt mean he can do the same in the nba which is what ive been telling people since last summer leauge...fans who dont knwo too much about basketball obviously dont understand the difference between summer leauge and regular season in the nba
portland summer leauge roster
Deji Akindele C 6-11 240 R 4-2-83 Chicago State
Jerryd Bayless G 6-3 200 1 8-20-88 Arizona
Dante Cunningham F 6-8 227 R 4-22-87 Villanova
Matt Freije F 6-10 240 2 10-2-81 Vanderbilt
Thomas Gardner G 6-5 225 2 2-8-85 Missouri
Pooh Jeter G 5-11 175 R 12-2-83 Portland
Bobby Jones F 6-7 215 2 1-9-84 Washington
Patrick Mills G 6-0 175 R 8-11-88 St. Mary’s (CA)
Dwayne Mitchell F 6-5 210 R 8-24-82 Louisiana-Lafayette
David Moss G/F 6-5 210 R 9-9-83 Indiana State
David Padgett C 6-11 230 R 2-13-85 Louisville
Jeff Pendergraph F/C 6
i was just proving a point that you have to draft by potential as well as what they can bring from day one and if a gm just drafted by how a player played in college and not there potenial thoses guys would have gotten drafted over the potential guys
i do agree with what i aid about cdr over jordan though..hes the next dan gadzuric