Taking Oden over Durant: The Blazers did the right thing?????
That's what my local NBA writer put in the paper just a few days ago. He basically said that a Center of Oden's potential impact on offense and defense is what a championship team needs.
Now, I enjoy this guy's work overall, but I just don't get his opinion here. The Blazers even had some playing time available at SF and plenty of decent bigs when they made this decision on draft night 2007.
Also, plenty of championship teams have utilized very average Centers as starters:
Look at all of the no-names the 6 Bulls title teams had at Center through the years.
Kendrick Perkins started at Center for the Championship Celtics.
If you ask me, the common denominator with Championship teams has been at least one great WING PLAYER, not automatically a great C or PG, as so many people write: Kobe, D-Wade, Pierce&Allen, Jordan&Pippen, Drexler were all on Championship teams since 1991. The Spurs used the PG/C model for titles, but even they had Manu Ginnobli as a force at the Wing.
What do you guys think?
100% agree, teams need a scoring wing to be good in the league..
just think of this..
Celtics: Pierce, Allen
Those are just some of the top teams in the league.
Even the Magic had Lewis at the 3 who scores and is an all star.
Just imagine Roy and Durant together..
Roy and Durant could have reminded people a little of Jordan/Pippen in a few years. Not as exact carbon copies, but those 2 guys could've easily led a team to a title with several years together.
the blazers could not pass on oden in the draft. most people wont agree with it but the made the right decision. there was just no way the blazers could have passed on his potential. defense wins champions. big men win championships. the blazers will a championship and oden was a great pick for them. yes durant is the better player but its just impossible to pass on odens potential
Tyrober, how can you say that when the obvious evidence is that Great Wings win championships??
What's so sacred about a Big Man versus a Wing? A great Wing can score from anywhere and defend all over the court. A great Big Man generally cannot.
Bill Wennington, Bison Dele, Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, Kendrick Perkins.....These are the "Great Big Men" responsible for 7 of the last 19 NBA Championships. What a Hall of Fame group.
The only great Centers who won without the help of an incredible Wing Player were David Robinson and Tim Duncan of the Spurs. They played together, and then Duncan won it all with the help of a pretty good Manu Ginnobli.
thats a good point delaquest..and prizbilla is more then cabale of being a championship center with lamarcus,durant,roy,blake and or miller
It's NOT obvious that only teams with great wings win championships. You definitely need scoring from the wing, but in my opinion, especially during the playoffs, the games are won in the paint.
2008-2009 Lakers - Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom
2007-2008 Celtics - Kendrick Perkins and Kevin Garnett
2006-2007 Spurs - Tim Duncan
2005-2006 Heat - Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning
2004-2005 Spurs - Tim Duncan (MVP)
2003-2004 Pistons - Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace
2002-2003 Spurs - Tim Ducan (MVP) and David Robinson
2001-2002 Lakers - Shaquille O'Neal (MVP)
2000-2001 Lakers - Shaquille O'Neal (MVP)
1999-2000 Lakers - Shaquille O'Neal (MVP)
1998-1999 Spurs - Tim Duncan (MVP) and David Robinson
When the Blazers were set to select Oden or Durant, they already had their stud wing scorer in Roy and their stud power forward in Aldridge. They needed a center to control the paint at both ends, especially rebounding and defense. You can't knock their logic. It's so much easier to find a scoring wing than a big man who can dominate at both ends of the floor. Oden is a better fit for this team than Durant is, but knowing what we know now (Oden's injury, Durant's rise to superstardom, etc)... Portland would have to take Durant regardless of fit if they could do it over again. It's still very early though and Portland has a chance to win a championship in the future.
Roy and Durant would've been nothing like Jordan and Pippen. Pippen was a point forward who rebounded and defended, while Durant is only a scorer. He doesn't defend, nor can he pass. I don't think he would've complimented Roy or Aldridge very well.
Y'all can give me negatives, but tell me why y'all disagree with what I said above lol? I explained why I think Portland selected Oden and why they thought he was a better fit for their squad at that time. DeLaQuest named off big men from only seven of the past 19 NBA finals and who hadn't won a championship, other than Perkins, since the 1998 NBA Finals. One sided way to prove a point because as I showed above... the last ten NBA champs have had great or really good big men who complimented their scorers. Somebody tell me why you disagree.
I didn't give u negatives,
nor am I an Oden hater
Oden is more Shaq than anybody else, I think that's why he got picked they wanted Shaq 2.0
there will never be another Shaq,
Oden has to become more like Duncan impo
bcuz Shaq is 7'1 325 in his prime
Oden is 7'0 (28o last year) and Duncan is 7'0 265 (around there)
he needs to model his game after Duncan instead of Shaq esp on offense
I would love to see him slim up and put more versatility in his game
In college Oden was more Shaq than anybody else, that's who GMs thought they were getting Shaq 2.0
Duncan and Garnett are 7'0 floor spacers, Shaq is a 7'1 beast who's best move on offense
was called the BLACK Tornado if y'all remember
Ha ha I ain't worried about points man. I just wanted to hear why people were disagreeing. It's probably nobody, but Quincey who's giving me negatives. It's all good because I have 5-6 times the amount of points he has, so I have a few to donate to him.
Oden is nothing like Shaq and I don't think anyone ever expected him to be like Shaq. The comparison's he always received were to David Robinson. There build is very similar, Oden is alot more nimble than Shaq and can move a lot better.
If Oden can stay healthy for his career, I see no reason why he won't be as good if not better than Andrew Bynum. He's obviously a slow learner (painfully slow) but so is Bynum. Everyone forgets he came out of HS and sat on the bench for like 3 seasons. Greg didn't do that, this is only his 2nd season in the NBA. Al Jefferson wasn't that good in his 2nd season. Centers always take a little more time to develop.
But Oden seriously needs to stop fouling out. At this point it isn't even funny. Last night's game: 17 minutes, 4 blocks, 6 fouls....Is he trying to be funny? Are the coaches not screaming into his ear "STOP TRYING TO BLOCK EVERYTHING" cause if so, they need to be!
But yea, I'm an Oden fan and I see him being pretty good. I think next year he'll be much improved and by the 2011-2012 season, he will be dominant, All-Star caliber. This is all if he stays healthy.
U seen my man play in College? he wasn't as freakish as college Shaq but
he was dominating with DUNKs, not a lot of finesse
Robinson was a sleek sprinter, i will never understand that comparison
i dont remember David Robinson being 280 either
more nibble then shaq now..oh of course..more nibble then shaq when haq was young...nope...i like the oden to bill russel comparision.(potenially).not great on offense but good defender rebounder
Taking Durant would negate the great pick of Brandon Roy. Also you have to take that chance on a Big man. They are rare. Especially after you saw Odens last college game where he pimped the florida gators( in losing effort) . But if the Sonics had the first pick, they should have taken Durant reguardless.
Russell was the definition of nimble, Russell was able to lead the fast break
and perform give and goes while going full speed and avoid charges, but I guess u would have to actually watched his games
who said russell wasnt nibble?
"more nibble then shaq now..oh of course..more nibble then shaq when haq was young...nope
...i like the oden to bill russel comparision"
by the translative property of COMMON SENSE
young Shaq was more nimble than Bill Russell?
Is he trying to be funny? Lol that was hilarious. I wonder the same thing lol. Are his coaches not telling him to stop trying to block every shot?
His fouls are from doing little things wrong... Like not keeping his hands straight up and just being too aggressive. I know he's big, but he contacts his man with the body way too much.
Like you, I think he'll get better and has a chance to be great though. Good post and I agree with you 100%.
how u figure..all i said was that shaq was more nibble then oden and that oden is comparable to russell potenially because of defense and shot blocking..so how exactly can you turn that around when i didnt say anything about russell being nibble or not?
U know i wouldnt be surprised, if it is the coaching telling him to block everything
bcuz the Blazers aren't known for defense
wtf is "nibble"?
defense and shot blocking= Russell 6'11 220
defense and shot blocking= Oden 7'0 265
who is more "nibble"?
obviously you took this to some other direction and try to make it into something it isnt..anyway like i said before oden isnt as nibble as shaq was when he first came into the leauge...and what does nibble have to do with me saying oden can be compared to russell potenially because of defense and shot blocking?..does that mean hes gonna be an exact copy of him?..no..plenty of players get compared to players even though they arent the same weight so im not seeing what youre point is?..can anyone else explain so i can understand what hes getting at and how me saying oden isnt as nibble as shaq has anything to do with russell
R u trying 2 be make me blow up, seriously?
u said Oden is like Bill Russell and learn how to spell its annoying
if Oden isn't nimble how can he avoid fouls and block shots at the same time
like Bill Russell did, like David Robinson did,
I'm done with this topic NEXT!
potenially like bill russell with defense and rebounding...not the first to say it wont be the last....you have a problem wit the spelling then thats youre issue not mine..deal wit it or go to another chat:)
obviously he cant since hes still foul prone
"not the first to say it wont be the last"
so called basketball geniuses say he's the next Bill Russell, so called basketball geniuses drafted Dwyane Wade #5 overall, Michael Jordan #3, John Stockton #16 and Emmanuel Ginobili #57
"support the real, not the fake" - anonymous poet
^words 2 live by
just bcuz someone in a high position says its true
don't make it true in the least bit
hence the word potential...meaning they dont always live up to the potenial...simple put oden isnt shaq wont ever be shaq oden has the potential to be a good defender and rebounder and so far hes on target for that which would make him potentially comparable to russell
simple put oden isnt russell wont ever be russell
oden has the potential to be a good defender and rebounder and so far hes on target for that which would make him potentially comparable to Tyson Chandler
I think I'm hurting myself as a businessman, I'ma stop posting soon :P
If Oden plays 30 minutes a game, he can easily have 15 points 10 rebounds and 5 blocks a night. Even if he doesn't block the shot, he alters it.
i think on draft day they made the right decison because oden obviosly is athletic can rebound and block shots. i think the blazers knew he would never be as good on offense as durant was and is but they thought: defense wins!
so the decison was right on draft day but today you can doubt it was because obviosly they would be the better team with durant now but they simply didn´t know better. so for oden is an often injured player who fouls more than he does show off his potential!
but i dont think they made a wrong decison it is just how the draft is some players look good at draft day and then they fail and the other way around. just think of jennings this season. or eddy curry!
it is just the thing that you draft on potential and things players do on a lower level and sometimes they come out to play "diffrent" in the nba!
If Oden was the go to guy instead of Roy and Aldridge it might be different. There's not a lot of plays for Oden.
yeah..but theres not alot of plays for him for a reason..hes still learning on offense and hes not more of a sure thing on offense like lamarcus and roy..i think portland couldnt go wrong either way as things are now
Let me make it simple for you.
At least 7 of the last 19 Championship teams had a Center who was nowhere close to an All-Star: The Bulls teams, and the Celtics team. The only team to win titles without a dominant Wing was the Spurs, and they still had Manu Ginnobli in some of those seasons.
Say all you want:
Pau and Bynum don't win it without Kobe.
Shaq doesn't win it without Kobe and D-Wade.
Olajuwon doesn't win it without Drexler.
But Jordan wins it 6 times with an average Center at best.
Pierce and Allen win it with an average Center at best.
Duncan wins it but he's not even playing Center in some of those seasons. Who WAS the Center? Nazr Mohammed at least once?
Notice I said that Roy and Durant were not carbon copies of Jordan and Pippen. Nobody's arguing that they were exactly like that duo. But they would've eventually been good enough to win it all with an average Center in Portland.
Two Wing Scorers can do the trick. Roy would have deferred on the scoring to Durant because he is a good teammate and Playmaker as well. Portland had an open slot in its Starting Five for Durant in 2007. There's no arguing that.
Actually, your argument is completely flawed. You're twisting the debate, by Center they're saying Big Men. Duncan is a big man, Shaq is a big man, Garnett is a big man...Man I'm licking my chops reading that bull&$#%#&@!... Olajuwon won without Drexler, Drexler came in and Olajuwon won his 2nd and got Clyde his 1st....
Shaq is a great example of why big men are the most important. He took the Magic to the finals and lost. His sidekick was Penny Hardaway. Once he left Hardaway did nothing in terms of the playoffs...Then he went to the Lakers, Kobe was his sidekick, he won 3 championships with them...He left and...What do you know! Won another championship with a different albeit All-Star calibert guard. What happened to Kobe? He wanted out of LA until they brought in what? Another All-Star big man in Pau Gasol! Coincidence? I think not. What is the one constant in this? Big 7 foot tall guys. No surprise there...
Jordan is just a bad argument, he's Michael Jordan and he defies all basketball logic.
My point is, your viewpoint is completely backwards.
I was talking about all-star caliber BIG men in general, but I'll even narrow this down to center to make it more simple for you. You're wrong and here's why...
- First... 7 out of the last 19 championship teams didn't have all-star caliber centers, but 12 of them did. Other than the Bulls, if a team didn't have an all-star caliber center and won the championship, it was because they had a great overall team like those "Bad Boy" Piston teams from the mid-late 80's - 1990. The 2008 Celtics fit that description. Paul Pierce was a great wing and won the finals MVP, but he averaged less than 22 points during that series and less than 20 during the playoffs. Even though Ben Wallace was an all-star center in 2004 (Defense and rebounding), the Pistons also fit that description of having a great overall team.
1994 - Olajuwon (No high scoring wing... Drexler wasn't even there yet)
1995 - Olajuwon (Drexler was a good wing, but was past his prime... He retired 3 seasons later... Olajuwon got HIM his ring, not the other way around.)
1999 - David Robinson/Tim Duncan (No high scoring wing)
2000 - Shaquille O'Neal (Kobe, but it was clear Shaq was the man and won MVP)
2001 - Shaquille O'Neal (Same as above)
2002 - Shaquille O'Neal (Same as above)
2003 - David Robinson/Tim Duncan (Stephen Jackson and Manu Ginobli played well, but they weren't GREAT wings at the time and Duncan was MVP)
2004 - Ben Wallace (Great overall team... Billups MVP) *
2005 - Tim Duncan (Ginobli was a great wing, but Duncan won MVP)
2006 - Shaquille O'Neal/Alonzo Mourning (Wade was a high scoring wing AND won MVP) *
2007 - Tim Duncan (Manu Ginobli was a great wing and Tony Parker was a great scorer at point guard... Parker won MVP) *
2009 - Andrew Bynum/Pau Gasol (Kobe was a high scoring wing AND won MVP) *
All 12 of those teams had all-star caliber centers (including Ben Wallace though he wasn't a factor offensively) and a center was the finals MVP 8 times out of the 12. Even though four non-centers won MVP 4 times, they STILL had an all-star caliber center on their team.
- Second... 6 of the 7 championships won without an all-star caliber center you're refering to belong to the Bulls who only had the greatest scoring wing to EVER play the game. There aren't any more players like him the last time I checked. Durant isn't nor will he ever be the player Jordan was. Jordan is the ONLY high scoring wing to have EVER won a championship without an all-star caliber center. I challenge you to name another high scoring wing that won a championship without an all-star caliber center. Kobe Bryant is the closest, but even he had Bynum and Gasol. Before he had Gasol and a healthy Bynum, the Lakers were no threat to win the championship no matter how much Kobe scored.
Obviously, nobody ever wins it without their teammates. However, Kobe definitely doesn't win it without Gasol and a HEALTHY Andrew Bynum. We saw what happened to them when they played the Celtics in 2008 compared to when they played the Magic in 2009. The Lakers weren't a threat to win the championship until Kobe got Gasol and Bynum was healthy.
The odds for winning a championship for a team with an all-star caliber center is much higher than teams with a high scoring wing and just an average center. Jordan is the ONLY high scoring wing to have won it with an average center. The 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics are the exceptions because they had overall great teams just like the "Bad Boy" Piston teams that won it.
Would the Blazers probably pick Durant if they could do it over again based on what we know now? Most likely. However, you can't blame them for their thinking when they selected Oden. They never expected him to be the scorer Durant is. They picked him because they knew he could be a dominate defender and rebounder. It's still early anyway. Portland has a shot at winning a championship in the near future.
First of all, I started this debate by saying "Center", not "Big Man". Read the first post. I was referring to what a writer was saying.
Second of all, why must Jordan be "the exception"? Why can't he be "the model" for winning championships? He won 6 for crying out loud with no great Center.
Kobe Bryant and his good but not great Center(s) won it over Dwight Howard and his good but not great Wings. Great Wing beat Great Big Man.
Bottom line is, you need a lot of talent on your team, regardless of position. But the Wing Position has been the strongest NBA championship position over the years.
There's nothing sacred about a Center over a Wing. Both positions can produce a lot and cause wins. And the way the game is played now, a great Center is even less important.
The Bulls showed that 2 outstanding Wings were a great model for Championships. The Blazers should have drafted Durant, and I knew it from day one.
If Blazers succeed in the Playoffs Oden vs. Durant will be over no?
Okeke, Only if they win some titles. They are succeeding now because they have done smart/lucky moves in other years. If they make the playoffs with no titles for 10 years with Oden as a very average Center, then they can always wonder what could have been with Roy and Durant teaming up.
They practically made their success with the 2006 draft. And by the way, from a Charlotte Bobcats fan, you're welcome Blazers for us picking Morrison over Roy. Disgusting.
Roy, Durant, and Aldridge might have been on par with Jordan, Pippen, Grant/Rodman. I'm not saying these threesomes have exactly the same skill sets. I'm not saying that any of them will be as good as Jordan. But as a whole, Roy/Durant/Aldridge could have been just as good as the Bulls trios, and not one of them is a protypical Center or PG.
Having your best players at the 2,3, and 4 positions can win titles. In fact, one could argue the Bulls showed that to be a VERY sustainable model. Then the Celtics showed how it could be done again with aging stars.