is team success over emphasized when analyzing individual greatness?
What do you guys think? DO you have any examples of guys being given too much/little credit as basketball players due to team success? Does the media tend to jump on/off bandwagons when a player is on a winning team?
I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. A few years ago, Kobe Bryant averaged about 35.5 pts, 4.5 asst. and 4.5 rebs while playing first team defense and leading a squad that started Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Lamar Odom with the top bench guys being Sasha Vujacic, Devean George, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, and Shammond Williams to 45 wins. It was one of the best individual season's I had ever seen from a player. Yet he was ridiculed for being selfish, for not winning enough games and being a bad teammate. He finished 4th in mvp voting behind Nash, Dirk and Lebron who all had won more games.
Cut to last year, his individual stats are down, his defense is slightly down, his minutes are down. But he plays with a far more talented team and wins 65 games and a title. After the title, the media starts riding his greatness and how he finally put it all together and how he will finally be able to put doubters to rest.
Was he really that much better as a player last year? And that is just one example from me being a laker fan. I'm sure there are plenty more. What are your guy's thoughts on this subject?
I think since basketball is a team game, there has to be some element that does with the success of a team. I think it's much easier to put up big numbers on a bad team. A player never has to play meaningful minutes, there seems to be no real pressure (i.e., notice numbers drop during the playoffs). Within the past few years we saw Ray Allen, Paul Peirce and KG's numbers shrink as well as their minutes. It doesn't mean that they have lost that much talent, as much as the guys are able to play that much more efficiently by being on a better team. Antwain Jamison's best year in my opinion was the year he played for Dallas coming off the bench. I think a guy like Al Harrington is a good example of why team success matters. He's nowhere in the class of a guy like Kobe, but he always plays well when he is on bad teams and barely seems to have much of an impact when playing for a good team. You can also look at guys who play for D'Antoni. His guys always put up big (inflated) numbers, but that partially has to do with the system.
I understand your argument though. I think Kobe's season was a great individual season, but in the end championships mean the most. Bill Russell's greatness is partially because no one did winning better than he did. Kobe is still selfish though. Part of that is what makes him great and propels his instincts to take over and dominate a game (unlike Lebron at this point), but to some extent you have to trust the other 4 guys on the court to help you out. A recent example of a guy getting hype because of team success is when Dirk won MVP. He was a better player the year before when Nash won it, but he got the award mostly for how good the team played during the season. I think if anything is overrated, it might actually be some of the numbers that people put up.
Wade should have been MVP this year too. He didn't get it because his team was horrible. I think the other part of that was that so many people were ready for Lebron to win his first one and there was no way Kobe was going to get it back to back. Should have been Wade no matter what.
your rite great example using kobe and the lakers as soon as a young team ill say the blazers start killin the teams around the league they'll have people jumpin on there bandwagon that dont even know who roy is or where the hell he came from. fake ass fans that say they love kobe but they know nothin about him there just along the ride
here a question that someone ask me
if your team where lozers 4 ten years stright would u still love them ? would u still cheer for them ?would still watch?
i would my team been losing 4 like 6-7 years im still a blazer fan and we winners now
i hear what you are saying and by no means am I implying that team success is not important in evaluating a player. But I'm just curious if is too often overused. I mean we as fans should be able to watch guys like Kevin Garnett and Al Harrington and know immediately who is a better player regardless of stats or team success.
You can't win a championship without a good team. Kobe had a great year back then and he could probably do that same now but with more talent he does not have to do as much and also he doesn't have to play as long. I do think sometimes we overlook what a player has done because their team is just not good. Wade last year carried that team into the playoffs. The Lakers that year when Kobe was on point lost to a Phoenix team that could have easily won it all if they had won one more game against Dallas. Miami would not have been able to beat that Suns team.
in my opinion they should do what they should wait till
the finals to present the MVP trophy that way if 2
superstars lead their team to the Finals
whoever didn't get the trophy will feel slighted
and go all out -- remember Olajuwon vs Robinson in 95
if a team gets all the way to the Finals without a superstar then give it to whoever
had the best season IDK?
i agree its not their fault that they have bad teams Wade should have won this year too wins are the main reason Paul might have won a couple season ago when the Hornets were doing really good but they had a late season slide and that hurt his chance.