Kobe Lebron debate
The Kobe Lebron debate will probably never end. You can never really say one player is truely more talented when it comes to these two, but i just want to throw something out there. Kobes skill too me is unmatchable. He is just so talented it isnt even funny. Lebron on the other hand is extremely talented as well. He is so big and fast players simply just cant guard him. He is like guarding a train out there. Everybody should remember the old space jam movie when we were kids and how they got talents and switched the bodies, etc. My question is what do you think would have if kobes skill was in lebrons body and lebrons was in Kobes.
I don't really get it but If that were to happen, I probably think LeBron fans would be Kobe's and Kobe's will be LeBron fans based on SKILLS/Talent.
Lebron's physical abilities should not be held against him. His talent level is very good. But if we are talking about pure skills here, then this isn't even a question. Kobe wins in just about every category. Shooting, post moves, foot work(no crab dribbling), defensive positioning, free throws, ball handling, fadeways. I even think his passing is just as good as Lebron's even though lebron get's more assists.
whil kobe is definetley more skilled, i think it's stupid to say that Kobe is a better passer. I think LeBron is actually a top 3 passer in the entire league. He honestley makes some of the best passes in the world. anyways back to the question if they switched bodies, i think LeBron would probably be like a Andre Iguodala type player, but still a bit better. Kobe would be hands down the most unguardable player in the history of the NBA if he was in LeBrons body
as for passing, I said kobe was just as good not better. but that is one area I can see Lebron getting the edge. but i don't think it has to do with Kobe not being able to make all the right passes and see the court just as well as lebron, I've seen Kobe make many incredible passes in all situations. It's just that Lebron is a more willing passer and plays in a offense where they spread the floor and basicly just let him draw defenders and hit the open guy, thus he get's more assists.
Don't get me wrong, I think Lebron deserved the mvp last year and will win it again next year. But as for skills, Kobe is just about flawless in every category.
people develop skills based on their body and what they are physically capabale of... lebron's jumper isnt as developed cause he never needed to shoot it lol... and kobe cant bulldoze over people so he relies more on ball handling and shooting...if you are asking me who is the better overall talent physical abilities aside...i say equal
i personally think lebron is much better than kobe
you can say Lebron is much better then kobe if you want. But being physical is not an excuse for not having a post game, a better 3 point shot or hitting a high free throw percentage. All of those things are skills that KObe has a clear advantage in regardless of size. In fact, Lebron should have a better back to the basket game then kobe because of his size, but it's not even close.
I agree with llperez22 on this one. LeBron's body type and being physical are no excuse to not have certain skills. LeBron won't always be able to bulldoze through people. What happens when he loses that athletic ability? Kobe doesn't have to bulldoze through people or rely on his athletic ability because his skill level is flawless. Kobe has arguably the most complete offensive game in NBA history.
Bryant is the most talented offensive player in NBA history. There isn't anything he can't do and do well on that end of the floor. He's also a serious man defender. James' stats are misleading to me. He's obviously really talented but he has the ball EVERY posession. The Lakers can/will go several plays were Bryant never touches it. James gets a lot of weak side blocks and plays the passing lanes well but he can't shut anybody down and is allowed to get away with murder out there. When you have someone his size with his physical gifts and then you let him carry, walk and hit AND give hime every call it allows him to be better than he really is, like he's got a game genie and everyone else is playing standard.
lol on game genie. I would have never beaten Desert Strike for the sega without it. It's not fair to allow lebron to unlock the crab dribble via game genie.
Kobe any day. i want the ball in his hand at the end of the game their skills are much separated Kobes much smoother and has the better shot i would take him any day.
"dont hate, when you debate..."
llperez, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Kobe is 7 years Lebron's senior. All the things you mentioned are developed over time. Kobe is one of, if not the, hardest worker in the game, so as he got older, of course his fundementals and court awareness improved. You also say lebrons back to the basket game is worse, and that may be true, but lebron gets to the basket and finishes better than anyone in the nba, so as of now, its not paramount to his success. The fact of the matter is Lebron is a better finisher, weakside defender, rebounder, and passer. So to answer the forums question, I agree with Henry that he'd be a better Iguodala. But you cant expect the overall game of someone 7 years younger to be as mature as Kobe's.
Also the amount of contact Lebron draws is absurd. Just because most of the time it doesnt affect his shot doesnt mean he doesnt get fouled on most plays. Honestly he's unguardable because you can't use the same officiating standards that you do with others. Similar to Shaq, he was fouled a whole lot more than the numbers show, you just had to really hammer him to get the call. It was also brought up that Lebron has the ball in his hands all the time. Thats because his supporting cast is not good. They can defend, and rebound consistently and thats it. Lebron is their offense and gives them their best chance to score every time down the court.
As for the walks, everyone in the NBA walks. I've had times where I was playing and my first step was kinda in between dribbles so it looks like I took three steps. I've seen Kobe do it, Wade do it, anyone who attacks the basket do it. Lebron gets called out for it more because of the distance he covers.
I'm not forgetting their age difference. The question was about right now, and that is what I'm basing it off of. I'm not trying to hate on Lebron at all. I haven't called anybody out for saying Lebron is a better player. I even said he deserved mvp last season and should get it again next season. But this thread is about who has more skills, and the answer is Kobe.
As for passing, I already addresed how I feel they are equals. Weakside defesne I think Lebron makes more specatacular plays becasue of his speed and athleticism which allows for blocks and and steals. But Kobe is one of the most inteligent team defenders in this game. He acts as a middle linebacker and anticipates as well as anyone. As for rebounding, again that comes down to size and playig around the basket.
If you were to take the Kobe from seven seasons ago and compare him skill wise to the LeBron of today, Kobe would STILL be leaps and bounds above LeBron.
Mkadoza, Lebron might be a better finisher now but you're forgetting that a few years ago nobody finished better than Bryant. And, for all of James physical gifts how often does he actually finish over somebody? He's got a launch pad left leg but doesn't jump well off of two, and he gets a lot of dunks but if someone jumps with him he's gonna put it off the glass. Remember that dunk he had on Tim Duncan a couple of years ago? If Duncan had even left the ground it woulda been a layup. In that same vein Bryant mashed on everyone, and did it with a shit load of style. Also, James is clearly a large human being but I think his size is greatly exaggerated. He might be 6'9 but he's not 260-270 like some claim. Howard's listed right around there and Howard DWARFS him. James is built like a leaner Jamal Mashburn. James is what would happen if Karl Malone and Clyde Drexler had a baby.
I was watching some of the old Utah games from the 90's not long ago, and I think the Lebron being as big as Malone is way off. Malone was a truck. Go watch Malone and tell me Lebron is just as big. I do like the Lebron would be the offspring of Malone and Clyde Drexler. That fit's pretty well.
That's exactly my point. You hear people [announcers, sportscasters, websites] claiming James is 270-ish. Certain people hold weight differently, but unless his femurs are made of marble he's not 270, maybe not even 260. Think the mailman was 265 at the same height and he was a &$#%#&@! tank. I'd put James at 255 or so.
Shiddd... Naw, he's about 260 lol. He was 240 during his senior year of high school. LeBron is super solid from top to bottom. Some guys just have a big upper body or big biceps, with skinny legs. He's got it all. Big upper body, arms, lower body/calfs... His body isn't normal. You also have to remember that muscle weighs more than fat and 99.5% of him is probably muscle.
Leaps and bounds Tezo? Maybe with his fadeaway and man to man defense, but thats it. 7 years ago their ball handling, wasnt much different, Kobe was primarily a slasher that used his threat of attacking the basket to get one or two dribble jumpers. Lebron is much better at finding teammates that usually ball watch for him, and Kobe had the ultimate safety net in Shaq, and no one can put the brakes on a play like Lebron. his recovery speed is crazy, to go from face guarding an opponent off the ball to moving 15 feet for a steal of block, Lebron does it better than anyone.
And whiteflash, youre right, when some one jumps with Lebron, he does use the glass, and finishes. He adept with finishing with either hand and puts the ball in the basket with regularity. Layup or dunk, it doesnt matter. He still scores with his great body control and angling of the ball. I didnt say he was the best at dunking over people, as a matter of fact, people just dont want to be posterized. I mean seriously what are you gonna do when hes 40 inches in the air with the ball 12 feet up? Who's gonna try and block that?
Tezo, I'm a personal trainer and have played ball with a lot of NBA players. All of these dudes are big. Think they list Arenas at 210 or so at 6'4' [which seems on the slim side] and that dudes shoulders are like a coat rack. He's not supr muscular, but nothing about him is small. With that, I doubt James is 260. Not saying he isn't, 'cause he is a big dude but I'd guess closer to 250-ish. James is just a naturally sturdy guy. He's got the look of someone who's wiry strong, but thicker if that makes any sense.
Ron Artest weighs 260 himself and I know LeBron is just as big, if not bigger. Have you guys ever seen LeBron play in person? He's HUGE lol. It's not even funny. His upper body is huge, but his lower body (thighs and calves... no homo) are just as huge. A player of his size with that kind of speed and explosion is what makes him unreal.
Artest is closer to 240. I'm here in Houston and have run into him a few times. His hands are giant. He's a big dude, but he ain't no 260.
In my opinion, the Kobe from seven seasons ago compared to the LeBron today would still be leaps and bounds better SKILL/FUNDAMENTALLY wise. The Kobe from seven seasons ago still had better killer instinct, footwork, post game, mid-range game, long range game and defense, especially on the ball. The Kobe from seven seasons ago is more fundamentally sound than the LeBron today.
While with the Pacers Ron Artest was every bit of 260. I had season tickets during the last two seasons he played here. LeBron is taller, leaner and has way more muscle than Artest.
As for Lebron being 260, it wouldn't really surprise me at all. He is huge. I see mma fighters who are massive for 260, but they also aren't 6-8. So Lebron could be 260. But if he was 260, then Malone was 275 at least.
If by post game you mean drop step, sure, Kobe had it but thats about all he did in the post, especially with Shaq in the paint. Long range Kobe was still very streaky from three. Killer instinct, you can't measure that, especially when he was playing for such a talented team. By footwork, I assume you mean jab steps, fakes, and spin moves. I'll give you that, but these are only parts of what make a player effective. Kobe's shot selection and court awareness weren't close to where Lebron's is now.
And Kobe was never a leader until recently. He was a moody, aloof selfish player that was out for himself, that his teammates never liked, and never really wanted to play with.
And in Kobe's first 6 seasons, his three point percentage was 31.4%. Lebrons after 6 seasons is at 32.8%, so I believe like Kobe did in his seventh season, we will see marked improvement in this category for Lebron in the future. Probably not the 38% Kobe shot but still a noticeably more consistent shot.
dont hate, but frankly KOBE flat out kills LeBron-
No bling -No king
M3, how can you use a team award to describe individual skill? This isn't tennis or golf. Unless you can give me facts about the players skills and why they're better, you're statement says nothing really.
team succes should not be the primary factor. Any real fan is capable of appreciating greatness for what it is regardless if it results in winning a title. Anybody who wants to hold a lack of a title against lebron is just not very smart. On the same token, you shouldn't hold it against Kobe that he played with Shaq either. He was the best perimeter player in the game when they were together and his play spoke for itself.
Well, done arguing about James weight, haha. Mkadoza, by post game we mean post game. Drop steps, up-and-unders, fadeaways, hook shots, floaters, shit, just plain over powering people and getting a bucket. Bryant is bananas. The thing that always really impressed me about Bryant is how hard he works to be what he is. He was always a great athlete, but the difference in his speed and leaping ability from his first through his fifth season is remarkable. A lot of that is just growing into his body, but he put a shit ton of work in the weightroom and on the track to be that much more athletic. He's also the first person I ever saw put his elbow in the rim. Did it at an exhibition in the Philipines in '98. Look, Lebron James is great, and I'm sure there's some kid who'll come along and be mentioned up there, but as good as we think Bryant is it's gonna be that more evident when he's gone.
Kobe is more skilled than Lebron, yes. But LeBron is better to me because he's dominate physically. I said Derrick Rose couldnt be the best PG strictly off of physical dominance, unless he's more prductive, so here's why its not hypocritical: LeBron is more productive a player than Kobe is. Kobe is the best scorer in basketball in my opinion, but Lebron even averaged more ppg than he did. And he has for he past 2 seasons. Coincidence? I think not...lol...and on top of that, Lebron is a better, more aggressive passer and rebounder. An argument can also be made that he's a better defender given his vast improvement and Kobe no longer even really working on D anymore. So that's why I say LBJ...he's a freak.
Oh and I think Kobe would be a freak in LBJ's body. But he's not so Lebron is better!
Slam magazine did a poll early last season. They talked to current and former NBA players, highschool players and sports clomnists. A lot of the Sports writers and high school players said James was better. Every NBA player said Bryant. I mean EVERY player. Those in the know, know. Yeah James has averaged moe points the last couple of years. He's also averaged a lot more minutes. And please believe that Bryants scoring has dropped 'cause he wanted it to. That ain't an accident. If he felt like it he'd lead the league in scoring no problem, and the Lakers would still win it all. He's chosen to focus on different things and the results speak for themselves.
iggy, again I can't argue with people who think Lebron is better because it is very close. But you shouldn't hold the scoring in any way against Kobe. Kobe could still drop 35 a game if he wanted, but that would be dumb of him seeing as how he has pau and others who can take over. Lebron is not a better scorer then Kobe imo.
Make no mistake... If Kobe Bryant wanted to lead the league in scoring or focus on leading the league in certain statistical categories, he could do that. Kobe doesn't have to "do it all" anymore and that's a great thing.
Kobe having help will prolong his effectiveness while he gets up in age. Last season he played the least minutes per game since he was 19 years old. He picks and chooses his spots like when in NY and he wanted to entertain the fans since he was suspended during his trip to NY the year before.
Eventually age catches up and a player must have the skills to out play younger more athletic players. Jordan did this after his first comeback when he started working guys in the post and using his fadeaway more then ever. Kobe has these similar tools. Eventualy Lebron will need to develop these tools as well since he won't be blowing by guys into his 30's while carrying 260 pounds.
I think Kobe is the best scorer..I said that. I know Kobe doesnt score because he has more scorers around him now. But Lebron is better because he's better and more productive now than Kobe has ever been at everything else (except D).
the thing is lebron will be able to bull over players for just about all his career ala shaq who still does it. on that note though if he develops more skills then he could bvecome a even better player just like if shaq would have. as of now kobe is more skilled by more then a lil bit. just imagin for a second lebrons body with kobes skills
be fair if lebron could shoot like kobe even tho lebron is better passer kobe is no slouch either. lebron with kobes ability wud b unstobable
Or whatever your name is. You know Wade carries his team through the plyoffs every year. You're too bias to realize true talent. LeBron was built and uses his talent, but it's easier for him, so there's not as much effort yet he is great. Wade & Kobe have played to win. They are the true best. Kobe-81. That answers that. Wade-Playoffs and ring. LeBron-Nike shoes, playoffs. It's too obvious. Wade clearly is up there. He lead his team in the olympics as the MVP. MVP of the finals, 2006 Sport Illustrated Sport'sman of the year, leading scorer last year. Oh did I say a 6'4 guard had more blocks than a 6'8 forward. No offence, but LeBron needs more effort. I don't why you have negative points, but I can guess how much you know about basketball.
M3, you know that when Wade won the championship, his teammates were markedly better than the Cavs supporting cast. You list off some stats you picked out and said absolutely nothing about their games. "LeBron was built and uses his talent, but it's easier for him, so there's not as much effort yet he is great." What does this even mean? "Kobe-81. That answers that." No, that answers nothing but in one game, Kobe scored 81. Yes Wade was the MVP of the finals, but he wasnt the only player in the finals. The MVP of the olympics could have gone to Lebron or Kobe because they all were intergral parts of the team. Wade's teams was young and inexperienced last year so he had to take the reigns as hard as he could. And so what that Wade averaged more blocks? He averaged more blocks than Przybilla, Oden, Bosh, Nene, and everyone except the top 15 shot blockers.
The Cavs now are better than the Heat now. As a matter of fact, the Cavs have been better every year lebron was there except the first two or three, which means for the last 3 years, Lebrons team was superior. Lebron has carried his team in every postseason appearence because he has to. Last postseason, Lebron James was as good as player ever, but his teammates didn't step up. He couldnt have played harder than he did last year. He could improve his game, but play harder? Thats just silly. I'm not too biases to recognize true talent. Wade is a top 3 player in the league. But I would take Lebron over Wade any day, if for Lebron's durability alone. I think Lebron is the top player in the league, even though other players may do other things better, I think age, body, skillset, and potential wise, Lebron is as good as the league gets.
So how much do I know about basketball, by the way?
PS: I hate people that give themselves points.
i,m going KOBE,lebron is a beast, but kobes has the 1 thing that is most important 2 me;KILLER INSTINCT,being from chicago i saw the best ever do it & kobe is the closest 2 mike by far.lebron needs that & a real jumper
Can someone give me how they quantify killer instinct?? Can someone tell me why Kobe is so far ahead of Lebron? Is it because his team wins? Because I attribute that to teammates as well. Is it because Kobe demands the ball? Do not Lebron do the same? I'm just extremely confused how everyone keeps saying something that... insubstantial.
Killer Instinct is doing WHATEVER it takes to achieve a goal or finish off an opponent. Kobe Bryant has the most killer instinct that I've seen since Michael Jordan. He'll do whatever it takes to reach his goals and finish off his opponent. Having killer instinct is having the mentality/mindset to step on your opponent's throat and not let up.
LeBron doesn't have it. He'd rather be your friend, while Kobe has no friends on the court. NOBODY gets between Kobe and his goals. Kobe is going for your throat every opportunity he gets.
Kobe Brynat was 18 years old playing in the second round of the playoffs in an elimiantion game against Utah. He had veterans like Shaq, Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Robert Horry, Jerome Kersey and Byron Scott on his team. He took all the big shots and threw up 3 straight airballs. He would have taken that 4th shot in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. That is killer instinct.
Lebron passed up a wide open 10 footer in the confrence finals last year and kicked it out to Delonte West for a 3. That is not killer instinct.
Jordan said it best, "I succeed because I fail". Kobe understands that.
Sad... An 18 year old Kobe had more killer instinct than the LeBron of today. Until last season, LeBron had NEVER made (or even attempted I think) a game winning shot. His first game winner happen last season, his sixth year in the league, versus the Golden State Warriors... He was guarded by Ronny Turiaf in an isolation situation.
to be honest i think people over look wade..he should be in this disscussion as well hes a very good defender and scoer and he was the first person ever to have 2000 points i think 1000 reb 100 blk and i cant remeber the amount of assists..i may be off on the numbers but i know he was the first to put the numbers up in the history of the nba. also most nba players and coaches say lebrons missing that killer instanct and that wade actually has it.
It means LeBronwas built with a good body thing and muscular duh. Not that anyone else wasn't but it should be easier. PS. I didn't give myself that point!
Get off the site
Why the &$#%#&@! do people keep saying "Lebron with Kobe's skill would be unstoppable"? Kobe with Kobe's skills is unstoppable. Ya'll are acting like Lebron is lightyears ahead of Bryant in athletic ability. Do ya'll need to see some highlights of Bryant from a couple of years ago? When's the last time James went chest-to-chest with somebody and punched it? Damon Jones and Leandro Barbosa don't count. James is probably pound-for-pound the fastest dude in the league, and he's got that left leg but he doesn't jump well off of two. You will never see James try to dunk through somebody. As soon as they jump he puts it off the glass. An early 30's Bryant is still mashin' on people. Just 'cause he doesn't do it as often as he used to doesn't mean he can't. Some of ya'll are sounding pretty silly.
I think you mean his first buzzer beating win... I think that was his first in his 6-year tenure... But as far as clutch goes, he has done a lot... The 48-point barrage against the Pistons in 2007, Th lay-in on the baseline with less than a second remaining in the playoffs of 2006 versus the Wizards (guarded by Ruffin)... He did had some clutch plays but not buzzer beaters which is sad to say... Plus, that SHOT in Game 2 versus the Magic in the 2009 playoffs was pretty much unbelievable...
Fizer21, you mean the game against the Wiz where he walked his ass off and [as usual] the refs didn't call it? I remember that. What about that shot against the Magic? It was a great shot, but unbelievable? Glen Davis did damn near the exact same thing that same series and no one said a word. Look, it might seem like I'm hating on James, and maybe I am a little. But, I do somewhat like the guy, I'm just tired of the NBA shoving him down our throats, the league letting him make a mockery of the fundamental rules of the game and having every nice play he make turn into "The greatest play ever!!!". What people need to talk about is how the Cavs were playing 8-on-5 against the Magic and still lost the series and all James could do was act bigger than the game.
And I agree with everyone who says James just doesn't have "it".