[EspressoParticipant]

 Am i wrong if i said that, exclusively coast to coast, on a fast break, Zion is the closest thing we have seen to Barkley?

As well as body type, 6’5 270 lbs.

….

Zion has been taking more jumpers this year, good for him. He is unstoppable at the rim, with his soft touch and specimen body

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JYDParticipant]

… as for any physically superior forward playing against children.

But it will be harder for Zion to do the same thing in college… end even more in the nba. I don’t know if the "modern era nba" fits to that kind of players anymore. Or just as role players (Yabusele, Ojeleye…).

Less muscle and more speed, agility, quickness, motor. And you need to have this physical profile with 3pts range, vision and defensive versatility. 

 

 

 

 

[khoss76Participant]

Barkley was a poor hard working underrated high school kid who busted his ass to best the best player possible.

Zion seems to be a very humble and smart kid, but doesn’t have the fire or the coaching staff to be dominant on the boards and on defense like Charles used to be. He’s maybe too much of a star due to all these youtube videos and his coach, fearing to lose him, didn’t want to hurt his feeling telling him what he really needs to work on.

Charles was also longer, maybe not in size, but had a much larger wingspan, which is Zion’s problem when he will play college or NBA. If you’re 6-6 with a 7-2 wingspan and athleticism, you can make it but with Zion’s 6-10 wingspan, it will be much more difficult to compensate.

 

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Zion’s wingspan could be an issue on defence in the NBA but I agree he and Charles had/have similar builds.

[JDB12Participant]

 Anthony Bennett 2.0 once he reaches the league… Always hope a player can make it and do well, but I’m not so optimistic with Zion. 

[EspressoParticipant]

 Im on record saying i dont like him as a NBA prospect, prob since his sophmore year. 

 

 

[EspressoParticipant]

 Im on record saying i dont like him as a NBA prospect, prob since his sophmore year. Nothing has changed 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/zion-williamson-0

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/zion-williamson-next-seventh-woods

[whiteflashParticipant]

 One of the things that made Barkley so unique aside from his length and explosiveness packaged in his frame was his agility. He’d routinely grab the board, go coast-to-coast weaving in and out of traffic and finish with a monster dunk or find the open man. He was also doing this against NBA talent. Williamson doesn’t have that. He’s just full speed barreling over 160lb kids while putting up awkward shots at the rim hoping to catch his own tip dunk. His game also hasn’t seemed to have evolved at all, which is a huge concern ’cause he’s not gonna be able to bull in a China shop his way through college. Think he’s really gonna struggle in college. Honestly, think there’s a better chance he winds up trying out as a tight end than playing in the NBA.

[EspressoParticipant]

 I have to agree with you about the wingspan. When Barkley put his hands up under the rim, he was almost touching rim.

However, given Barkleys insane body type, i still think Zion to this day, even with his shorter arms, is the closest thing to Barkleys 6’5 270lbs build

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Williamson has a 6’10" wingspan. It’s not like he’s got gator arms. Can’t get a full report on Barkley but his wingspan seems to be around 7′ (which sounds about right), so that’s only a 2" difference, which obviously isn’t a big deal.

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Williamson defenitely fits in todays NBA as a PF and on any team. Heres my comparisons for him. Jaylen Brown, Draymond Green and Charles Barkley.

 The 6’5 is without shoes. So hes a gauranteed 6’6 by our ‘with shoes standards and about as tall as every guy we think is 6’7. He will be listed 6’7. His wingspan is a decent 6’10 which gives him mediocre wingspan for a forward but enough to make it work. Athletically and physically he is elite at 270 pounds and in great shape. His agillity is impressive considering how bulky he is but moving East to West quick will likely never be a strength. Same height as Jaylen Brown, a shorter wingspan yet 50 pounds heavier at the same age.

 You can tell how much he has worked on his handle. It can be impressive at times yet because of his weight he is usually limited to being a straight line driver. Once he gets his weight moving the momentum can be hard to stop on a dime although he has amazing body control and is able to contort and manuever his body in order to avoid charging into positioned defenders. I think a part of this is also people getting out of the way at this level because a 6’7 270 bus hitting you at full speed could really hurt. This part of his game reminds me a ton of Jaylen Brown.

His shooting is limited yet improving. Like alot of players nowadays he is lacking a decent pull up game. Anything in the midrange seems uncomfortable. He doesnt seem to have any sweet spots on the floor. Seems to be limited to a spot up shooter with no midrange. Kind of reminds me of Draymond Green in terms of his shooting abillity at this point but he has alot of upside and can continue to improve and be much better.

His playmaking will become a huge part of his game as he continues to learn how to play in the half court as a pick option and as a cutter. He has a great court vision similar to Green which teams will love.

Defensively he is a monster which is always the concern for guys projected to be tweeners. I think he shows enough abillity to play SF, PF and C in the NBA at times. Really is positionless and matches the way todays game is trending. Nobody is going to care about what position he plays.

Where Zion is really going to shine is in transition. He is going to have so much room to run in the NBA and his strength, athletisism, body control and handles makes him unstoppable when he gets a chance on the break. Alot like Charles Barkley but Sir Charles may have been a bit lighter on his feet while Williamson seems to have more raw athletisism. 

While he may not be your teams #1 option he should become a very important player on a good team thanks to his abillity to score, offensive rebound, pass, defend multiple positions and play physical. Could end up having a similar role to Draymond Green but is also a better athlete and has more scoring potential.

 

[EspressoParticipant]

 Idk how this post can negged.

Have some appreciation people….. Even if you dont agree with it…. Arent we here to read others opinion…. I think he did a pretty good damn job of explaining himself

 

 

[khoss76Participant]

 is far from being efficient. He doesn’t grab all the rebounds he should, nor seem to have the lockdown mentality of a Butler or Leonard and he get passed by less athletic kids. He’s a show off shot blocker, which means that he seems to consider a block as a spectacular action like a dunk but has not this "nobody scores on me" mentality when you watch his games.

He’s a smart kid so hopefully someone will make him understand he can’t be a star without being  the best defender possible

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Really should stay in school and learn the halfcourt game even if it means passing being a one and done top 3 pick. Playoff basketball still slows down quite a bit and right now hes useless in the halfcourt set. When is the NBA cancelling the one and done rule.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 He will not be a great NBA player. Almost certain of it. He will not stay in shape either. Right now hs is beasting kids but i think he will struggle in college too. He is going to get exposed, no doubt.

[The GoatParticipant]

 Barkley had very underrated passing and  defensive skills but most importantly, he had a great understanding of how he could take over a game and lead against top line talent. He demolished people when he needed to, but he could take what he was given and shoot the jumper when he needed to as well. He did those things very early against top competition. He could barrell over weakling kids for a monster dunk like Zion but there was so much more to his game. Barkley was a man that had outplayed men by the time he came in. Zion is a big kid that has played little kids. It’s no comparison.   

[SmooveKRYPTParticipant]

Zion is a smaller Julius Randle

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Zion isnt just a big athletic kid bullying smaller kids. Hes an extremely big extremely athletic kid bullying smaller kids. With that kind of strength and athletisism, along with his court vision and offensive rebounding there will always be a place in the league for him. His main priority would be making his jumper consistent. He may not be a superstar type or allstar player but he should be a good player.

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Dude, be hasn’t played a single second of college ball and hasn’t shown ANY skills other than being big and athletic. There are absolutely no guarantees he makes the NBA. Pump the breaks.

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Pump the breaks? Its not like Im hyping the guy up. All he needs to do is prove he can shoot and he will get drafted in the 1st round. He’s athletic enough and strong enough to make an impact at the college level. Its pretty easy to see that but we can just pull up the thread in a year and see whats what.

[whiteflashParticipant]

 That’s so ridiculous. What if he comes in and looks like $hit? If it looks like he can’t contribute in college, you really think a team’s gonna waste a 1st round pick on an undersized pf who looks like a walking weight and injury problem? Again, there are no guarantees. Also, I meant to write "brakes".

[Andv1 WaitingParticipant]

 If he ends up at a school where they develop his talent and prepare him for the NBA he could do alright as they should develop some small fundamentals that will help him stick, but if he goes to a school where they let him just keep doing the same things he will have a harder path to staying in the league…

[kobyzParticipant]

 He should work on being a pg like Ben Simmons, find a college that will let him do that…

[GBeeParticipant]

 Just a few observations from scanning this thread:

-The Barkley/Zion comparisons were obvious because of their body types, but their games are different outside of their unique ability to rip and run, steamrolling in transition at 270+ lbs. Barkley had more of an old school game that was very post heavy. He used his leverage and wide base to establish position where he backed down (he was largely responsible for the 5 second back down rule) utilizing up fakes, step throughs, up and unders and fades to score in the post. Zion doesn’t have that type of game.  In the halfcourt he’s more of a slasher who starts the majority of his offense from the perimeter.

-The difference in length is notable and it should be emphasized.  Just watch footage of young Barkley going up in traffic to snatch rebounds.  He had a condor wingspan that allowed him to play more vertical than the average 6’5 dude.  While a 6’10 wingspan is good for a 6’5-6’6 player, it is not for a projected PF.  Fortunately for Zion he has the vertical to compensate, but long-term it could be problematic.  

-I see some people praising Barkley for his work ethic and defensive prowess in this thread, but he was fat and lazy in college.  Dude played at over 300 lbs at Auburn and he was still fat early on in his career until Moses Malone reigned him in.  He was just uniquely talented and physically dominant.  He was also a horrible defender for his entire career and he candidly admits that.

-I’d like to hear the explanation of how Zion is the next Anthony Bennett.  I’d be hard pressed to find two more dissimilar players with similar builds.  Bennett didn’t even dominate at the lower levels.  He was soft, lazy on the floor, had zero ball skills and had a horrible IQ.  He only looked like a physical beast, but he was a cupcake who didn’t know what to do on the floor when he didn’t have the ball in his hands.  Zion actually plays intelligently, is a good, willing passer, plays to his strengths (which is why he always shoots an obscene % from the floor regardless of what setting he’s playing in), can handle the ball and has no issue playing physically.

-Zion clearly has the ability to rip and run a la Barkley.  I don’t see how anyone can deny that.  In fact,  I think he’d actually be better at that than Barkley because he has better ball skills.  They’re both freight trains but watch Barkley open court footage and you’ll see he routinely dribbled with his head down.  Zion has better change of direction.  In fact, for someone as big and wide as he is, his feet are extremely nimble.  You can see it in the halfcourt how slithery he is attacking the hoops.  270+ lb’ers aren’t supposed to be that elusive with that amount of body control, both on the move and in the air.

-I do share the same concerns about him adding bad weight.  He has the type of build that can put on weight easily if he doesn’t stay on top of his fitness.  Injuries could be a real problem for him, not only because of the actual injury, but his weight could balloon with inactivity.  I also think he has the type of body that shouldn’t spend a single second weight training. No lifting necessary, just core, motion, cardio and flexibility training.  He’s almost TOO bulky already.  

-Yeah, he’s dominating smaller kids, but what is he supposed to do? Not dominate physically?  That’s not a legit criticism.  The question is will that carry over to the pro level and I say yes. Not to the same degree obviously, but Zion is a freak of nature. With that sheer amount of mass and burst on the move, the majority of NBA players will be bouncing off of him too.  The issue will be if he develops anything else to complement that,  aka a jumpshot.

-He’s not Julius Randle either.  Julius was a chucker in HS.  Played with blinders on, routinely forced shots over double/triple teams.  Played with the ball on the perimeter in the halfcourt only to launch bricks with his 2 part broken slingshot jumper.  In college and the NBA he’s a below the rim player who doesnt even have great touch.  Zion is more explosive, the more willing passer, smarter player overall and while the results aren’t there yet,  I think the form on his jumper is fine.  He shoots a flat ball, but the rotation is good and the majority of his misses are short/long, not left/right… the former being a better sign.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Barkley played around 270 at Auburn. He ballooned up to 3-bills before the draft ’cause he was trying to scare specific teams away. He was also not a terrible defender. He averaged 1 block and 1.5 steals a game for his career, with several seasons in his youth near 2&2. Also, Drexler also dribbled with his head down and no one would claim he had bad ball skills. Barkley was doing this against pro athletes, Williamson is doing it against children. No one is questioning why Williamson is physically overpowering children, they’re questioning why that’s ALL he’s shown the ability to do. He’s added nothing to his game, which obviously isn’t a good sign. He also hasn’t looked near as physically dominant against other top flight prospects. As far as the bulky thing is concerned, that has NOTHING to do with weight training. "Bulky" is a function of genetics and diet. Seeing as he’s a kid, I can guarantee he’s not on any kind of nutrition plan. He could 100% lift, eat well, lean out and get even stronger. No one escapes basic physiology. Also, eating well and lifting would do wonders for bulletproofing his body from the injuries he’d likely incur were he to not get on a structured program. 

 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

You’re wrong. Straight from the horse’s mouth: ‘Back in my day we had a hard salary cap so you could not go over the salary cap like you can today and the Sixers had the No. 5 pick in the draft. I left college after three years and in fairness, I was fat in college. I played at 300 pounds. The Sixers called me a month before the draft and said, “We want you to get down to 285 pounds and come in before the draft’ http://www.si.com/more-sports/2015/04/12/charles-barkley-sxsw-masters-espn-lou-holtz

 

 He played at 270 in college yet the 6ers wanted him to get DOWN to 285? Sure.

 

 And Barkley was a horrible defender, one of the worst among all HOFers. If you’ve heard him on TV he’s freely admitted that despite extolling the virtues of defense and rebounding. He was notoriously lazy on that end, conserving his energy and only providing some resistance with his strength, but not consistently contesting shots, which is understandable despite his length considering he was 6’5 playing in the height of post play. His hustle stats don’t mean shit. That’s like saying AI was ever a good defender despite leading the league in steals for a number of years. He was horrible too. I’m not sure how anyone could’ve watched Barkley play and come to the conclusion that he was anything but a bad defender.

 

 And actually you CAN say that Drexler was lacking in ball skill like Barkley because, not only did he dribble with his head down, but his off-hand was very weak as well. He lacked shiftiness outside of a right-handed inside out, but he didn’t need it as much because he was such a phenomenal straight line athlete to go along with an excellent floor game and an underrated jump shot. I’m not sure how you were taught, but there’s no way that looking down while you dribbled wasn’t detrimental to your handle.

 

 And I completely disagree with your assessment of Williamson. Maybe if you only watch his highlight tapes you could come away thinking that he’s an unskilled player, but he’s not. He’s yet another one of those kids who grew up as a guard before a growth spurt, so he did retain some of those guard skills. 3 years ago he was a 6’2 175lb freshman guard who already received D1 offers. You’re telling me he was a freshman guard getting D1 offers, but lacking skill? Just because he lacks a jumper doesn’t mean he is lacking in skill. He’s a very good ball-handler for a guy his size, displaying shiftiness both in the open floor and attacking the hoop. He’s also a very good passer and underrated playmaker with good footwork to boot. You can’t be that big and wide, while also being elusive in the open floor and when slashing without having good footwork. A guy that big isn’t supposed to be as good as he is in tight spaces. TBH, he doesn’t get enough credit for being a good basketball player, period. What I mean by that is that he clearly has a high IQ. He understands angles, understands shifting the defense, he rarely forces the issue and he understands his strengths and weaknesses. On top of that he plays like a selfless teammate. I saw this comparison earlier in this thread, but I saw both in HS and Zion is the antithesis of Julius Randle when it came to IQ and intangibles.

 

 Zion already has Paul Bunyon strength. He doesn’t need any more. I believe there is such thing as diminishing returns when it comes to basketball and strength training. I look at a player like Dwight Howard and how stiff he got when he turned into a musclehead. I remember when T-Mac and Kobe thought it’d be a good idea to gain more mass only for it to contribute to their downfall. I see how weight training has affected guys like Iguodala’s shooting touch. Once a player reaches a certain point, any more strength training can be detrimental. I think Zion is already at that level. Zion could shed NBA defenders with ease already and his lower body strength is already that of an O-lineman. He doesn’t need weight training. What he needs to do is lean out, improve his conditioning and do preventative training (ie strengthening his core and flexibility). Getting stronger would be pointless IMO.

[whiteflashParticipant]

No, you’re wrong. He states that he got up to 283 after his jr season and when the Sixers said they were going to draft him he tried to gain 20lbs in 2 days to hit 3 bills. That is readily available info. Not sure why you’d try and argue.

I’m not saying Barkley was a lockdown defender, but he definitely wasn’t terrible. 

You can’t say Drexler lacked ball skills just because he was un-traditional. He may be the exception that proves the rule, but it clearly worked for him so there’s that.

Dude, I’ve seen Williamson up close at an AAU event. Outside of being massive he didn’t stand out in any capacity.

Also, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about in regards to strength training. You sound like the old coaches who believe lifting makes you "musclebound". Using Dwight Howard is an awful example as he looked stiff and mechanical when he was a HS sr.

 

 

 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 I quoted Barkley right there. He said it himself. He was fat and played at 300 lbs in college.  Do you just refuse to acknowledge Barkley’s own words?

No, he was a terrible defender.

And yes I can say he was lacking ball skills. Watch footage and look how right-hand dominant he was.  He had very little wiggle to his game. Instead he used the threat of his first step to shoot jumpers in defender’s faces and vice versa.

Go ahead and queue up his most recent game vs Chino Hills.  Its readily available online.  In fact I’m pretty sure it was on ESPNu so you can peep the archives. Zion is WAY more than just sheer size and athleticism.  Even while rusty and in poor condition after missing a month of basketball, his skill and IQ were evident.  There’s a reason why guys like Don Showalter (Team USA youth coach for years) gush about his feel for the game and offensive versatility.

There is far less emphasis on weight training in this era of basketball unless a player is young, trying to fill their frame and activating their "man" muscles. After a point it becomes about range of motion, flexibility, preventative measures and maintenance of  the smaller muscles that surround joints.  And Dwight had way more range of motion before he became a musclehead, even actually shooting a jumper without looking like a robot. Now he looks like he’d even have trouble putting a shirt on.  His delts are so stupid and pointless for basketball other than restricting his range of motion.

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Posting from my phone so can’t copy and paste for some reason, but if you Google "Barkley Auburn weight" literally the first link is a yahoo article where Barkley describes what I wrote. It’s also a story he’s told several times, so there you go.

The second best 2-guard of the 90’s was lacking ball skills… Right on.

You mean the game where he was bricking 3’s, missing layups and his team lost? Yeah, I saw that.

Dwight Howard has always been stiff and immobile, and now he’s old and beat up. He NEVER had a jumper,  or anything close to it. Kobe played 20 years and only started to break down after he got older, and coincidentally stopped lifting as much.

 

 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 Still ignoring Barkley’s own words huh? I think that’s called selective reading.

Yes, even HOF’ers have weaknesses in their games. Case-in-point Barkley with his horrible defense.

Yeah the same game where he put his on display his passing ability, ability to handle in the open floor, his halfcourt IQ, footwork and ability to slide by defenders, maneuvering through tight spaces when slashing despite being the size of a defensive end. And yeah he did brick two 3’s, made 1, but we already knew shooting is his weakness. Missing layups…while still ending up something like 16/23 from the floor which is par for the course for him. He’s ultra efficient EVERYWHERE he plays and its not just because he physically dominates.

And no, Dwight wasn’t always immobile. Multiple DPOY, yet was immobile?  He actually had a jumper in HS.  You can even read the scouting report on this very site.  He had the ability to step away, which he only showed flashes of his rookie season shooting 67% from the line and 43% from mid on low volume.  He hit the weightroom hard and never approached those %’s ever again.  Kobe’s weight fluctuated throughout his career he bulked, suffered a lower body injury (both times) with the extra stress on the joints then decided to lean out again, but bulking to 230 or whatever never lasted longer than a year.  For the latter part of his career, his training was more focused on muscular endurance.

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 I’m guessing you’re young and never actually watched Barkley, or Young Howard for that matter. Mutumbo won DPOY and be was quite immobile, so there goes that argument. This site also compared DeShawn Stevenson to Michael Jordan, so not sure what it claiming Howard could shoot has to do with ANYTHING. You keep arguing about things you don’t know about, but I got the day off so I’m game. Bryant wore down’cause the human body isn’t designed to play 20 years of 82+ games of professional basketball. It had literally nothing to do with weight training or "bulming" as you keep calling it. 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 I think he will be a top 20 pick no matter what, based on his highlights, reputation, name, and supposed "upside".  Even being in the same sentence with the great Sir Charles will help his case.

He can be a top 3 pick, sure — especially if he goes to the ‘right’ high profile team that will build around his strengths and help shore up his weaknesses a bit. Seems like a guy Coach Cal would bring in to Kentucky as the centerpiece of a top shelf recruiting class.

Odds are, he will not be the top pick, but he won’t be a total college bust either.  

I think he gets drafted in the 5 to 15 range. I think Barkley went 5 in a great draft.  

Ok, Zion goes between 4 and 8 and that’s my FINAL offer.

[whiteflashParticipant]

http://m.newsok.com/article/2065684 Barkley at 284 before the draft.

[GBeeParticipant]

 Sure, the man himself said he played at 300 and said he was fat.  Keep ignoring that. Even fat guys prep for the draft, hence why he got his weight DOWN to 283-284.  This after the 6ers asked him to get down to 285 to draft him. But…your orginal contention was that he played at 270 in college. 

Idek why I responded to your post to begin with.  I vaguely remember you.  You’re nothing but a self-congratulatory contrarian consumed with confirmation bias, who seemingly argues for the sake of arguing.  I think I’ll go back to ignoring your posts.

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Jesus Christ, dude. You think maybe Barkley is hamming himself up for the sake of the story? He was listed as playing around 270-ish. That article said he went into camp at 284 and LOST another 9lbs. Then he said he tried to gain 20lbs in w days to sabotage his 76’ers draft status. You can ignore it all you like, but these are reported FACTS.

[Author]

Posts