[MopgrassParticipant]

 Like most people on here, my draft order has 1)Towns 2) Okafor 3) Russell 4) Mudiay. However, I was reading some analytic article about how superior WCS’s defense was this year (between perimeter D and rim protection) and it made me wonder: is Willy Cauley-Stein as good at defense as Okafor on offense?  

I think it’s an important question. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that they’re even. Who was worth more would depend on whether WCS ended up better on offense than Okafor did on defense. Okafor has a ceiling on defense because of physical limitations (WCS isn’t physically limited on offense). He also only shot 53% from the foul line. Over the last 15 years, no top 5 pick who was a PF or C ever shot over 60% at the FT line in pro when they shot 50-55% in college. However, WCS showed a jump from 37% to 62% from FT. That means, not only might he end up a better shooter than Okafor, but he has already shown he can improve an offensive skill dramatically with hard work. 

To be clear: WCS has almost no semblance of a post up game (the hook isn’t so bad). He is not currently a good offensive player at all and Okafor actually play’s good man on man defense. 

I haven’t quite changed my mock draft, but I thought it a worthy question. I know Okafor might be a generational offensive player, but WCS could be a generational defensive player (maybe an overstatement on both). Are we so offensive-focused that when an evenly skilled defensive player comes along, we disregard them as equals? 

[GBeeParticipant]

 Being a true big man anchor in the NBA these days is not just about having the physical tools do so, but its also about decision making (which is why a guy like Drummond sucks defensively and why I think D.Jordan’s impact defensively is completely overrated.  They’re both dunces.) .  Knowing when to rotate, quarterbacking the defense, calling out rotations, knowing when to go for the block and when to just wall off and maintain position, etc. The majority of the best anchors in the NBA like M.Gasol, Bogut, Duncan, previous yr’s KG are disciplined, smart, anticipate well, have a great understanding of positioning and know when to pick and choose their spots.  It’s easier to just physically impose, dominate with pure athleticism or switch/stay in college.  It’s also easier to sell out and go balls to the wall playing in short increments, next to another rim protector.  I’d question WCS decision making on BOTH ends of the floor, including the defensive end. I’d also question WCS’ toughness and physicality, which are also shared traits among modern defensive anchors and top post defenders. I would NOT touch him in the top 5 because I have serious questions about the one side of the floor he’s projected to be good at.

[GBeeParticipant]

 Being a true big man anchor in the NBA these days is not just about having the physical tools do so, but its also about decision making (which is why a guy like Drummond sucks defensively and why I think D.Jordan’s impact defensively is completely overrated.  They’re both dunces.) .  Knowing when to rotate, quarterbacking the defense, calling out rotations, knowing when to go for the block and when to just wall off and maintain position, etc. The majority of the best anchors in the NBA like M.Gasol, Bogut, Duncan, previous yr’s KG are disciplined, smart, anticipate well, have a great understanding of positioning and know when to pick and choose their spots.  It’s easier to just physically impose, dominate with pure athleticism or switch/stay in college.  It’s also easier to sell out and go balls to the wall playing in short increments, next to another rim protector.  I’d question WCS decision making on BOTH ends of the floor, including the defensive end. I’d also question WCS’ toughness and physicality, which are also shared traits among modern defensive anchors and top post defenders. I would NOT touch him in the top 5 because I have serious questions about the one side of the floor he’s projected to be good at.

[wonzi_bellsParticipant]

 I wholeheartedly agreed with your first assessment on defense and so much of the intricated details that seemed to get overlooked by the average basketball viewer but I guess it depends on certain criteria that you’re looking at with Cauley-Stein. In terms of the platoon system, I can certainly say that effected his game to be allowed to play "balls to the wall" but with the actual production that he did showcase while he was doing it, it very much exuded smart decision-making on the part of defense end. For someone to be allowed to play so forcibly, he made a lot of the right decisions. What he did as a pick-and-roll defender was anomaly this season and it’s arguably much harder for a seven-footer to be so adept to know to how to accurately guard the perimeter, which is increasingly becoming very so important in a dominant pick-and-roll and three-point shooting league and with depth at the point guard position. Rarely fouling, he knows how to use his quickness in positioning to turn and force his man to be funneled into hazardous driving lanes into another big or to block/contest from either afront or behind. Now, I can see your point with him as a primary rim-protector as he tends to bite on pump fakes and lack the strength to wall off opponents, although I think he’s very smart in recognizing rotations downlow as a help defender, but he’s not awful and the other names you’ve mentioned as well aren’t awful in Drummond and Jordan. Overrated in terms of thinking they’re the best defenders in the league or should have won in DPOY like every former NBA player and current color commentator was saying about Jordan – sure. But, that doesn’t mean they were awful and thus the same for Cauley-Stein. It’s not like he can’t dominant with pure athleticism in the NBA as if playing with NBA players has revealed his achilles heel or something. Even by NBA standards, all that athleticism is going to cover-up some mistakes he might make and just flatout help him in general. He was the engine that made that whole Kentucky defense go and be so unique. I acually think he can play some power forward with a lot of teams in the lottery, most notably Sacramento.

 

[wonzi_bellsParticipant]

 I wholeheartedly agreed with your first assessment on defense and so much of the intricated details that seemed to get overlooked by the average basketball viewer but I guess it depends on certain criteria that you’re looking at with Cauley-Stein. In terms of the platoon system, I can certainly say that effected his game to be allowed to play "balls to the wall" but with the actual production that he did showcase while he was doing it, it very much exuded smart decision-making on the part of defense end. For someone to be allowed to play so forcibly, he made a lot of the right decisions. What he did as a pick-and-roll defender was anomaly this season and it’s arguably much harder for a seven-footer to be so adept to know to how to accurately guard the perimeter, which is increasingly becoming very so important in a dominant pick-and-roll and three-point shooting league and with depth at the point guard position. Rarely fouling, he knows how to use his quickness in positioning to turn and force his man to be funneled into hazardous driving lanes into another big or to block/contest from either afront or behind. Now, I can see your point with him as a primary rim-protector as he tends to bite on pump fakes and lack the strength to wall off opponents, although I think he’s very smart in recognizing rotations downlow as a help defender, but he’s not awful and the other names you’ve mentioned as well aren’t awful in Drummond and Jordan. Overrated in terms of thinking they’re the best defenders in the league or should have won in DPOY like every former NBA player and current color commentator was saying about Jordan – sure. But, that doesn’t mean they were awful and thus the same for Cauley-Stein. It’s not like he can’t dominant with pure athleticism in the NBA as if playing with NBA players has revealed his achilles heel or something. Even by NBA standards, all that athleticism is going to cover-up some mistakes he might make and just flatout help him in general. He was the engine that made that whole Kentucky defense go and be so unique. I acually think he can play some power forward with a lot of teams in the lottery, most notably Sacramento.

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 UK’s defense was not an NBA style defense, or at least any good one. There were no multiple efforts or help and recoveries. They gave space, used their size to recover and they switched and stayed a lot.  Teams who constantly switch and stay don’t have to communicate much or "stay on a chain" with every other defender moving in unison to recover. Watching them play defense was like watching the Knicks’ defense under Woodson. Switch, switch switch.  That type of style is generic and eventually leads to mismatches that get taken advantage of, which eventually became UK’s undoing vs Wisconsin. WCS has great physical tools. He’s quick laterally and he has the agility to recover. He can defend in space, but would I trust him to be quarterback a defense? Probably not.  I don’t think he’s an intelligent player.  I also don’t think he’s a physical player.

And yes, Drummond does suck defensivly. He’s a prime example of a player with amazing physical tools, who can’t make good decisions on his feet.  He doesn’t talk, call out rotations, he can be manipulated by fakes and he plays smaller than his size would indicate because he’s soft and doesn’t like physical play. Jordan is better obviously. He has that tenacity, toughness and more consistent motor that Drummond lacks, but what is his true impact as an anchor?  Clips were middle of the pack defensively and sucked in the playoffs, giving up something like 110 points a game.  IMO, a DPOY candidate can’t come from such an average to mediocre defensive team.  If you watch Jordan play, he still makes a ton of mental errors and doesn’t direct his teammates in front of him like the better anchors of the NBA. 

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Drummond is not soft he’s more or less reluctant to injure or hurt you. I’ve seen multiple occasions where he was frustrated and completely destroyed his opponents on some flagrant foul misconduct.

[GBeeParticipant]

 No, he’s soft. Players as big as he is don’t shy away from contact like he does. Sets weak picks, doesn’t fight for post position consistently on either end, quick shoots his shots, unnecessarily fades on some shots instead of going through defenders, gets pushed off the block and outworked by players who don’t nearly have the mass that he does. The fact that he’s 280 lbs or whatever is of no consequence because he doesn’t play like it.

What you described isn’t physicality, that’s just frustration. 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 No, he’s soft. Players as big as he is don’t shy away from contact like he does. Sets weak picks, doesn’t fight for post position consistently on either end, quick shoots his shots, unnecessarily fades on some shots instead of going through defenders, gets pushed off the block and outworked by players who don’t nearly have the mass that he does. The fact that he’s 280 lbs or whatever is of no consequence because he doesn’t play like it.

What you described isn’t physicality, that’s just frustration. 

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Drummond is not soft he’s more or less reluctant to injure or hurt you. I’ve seen multiple occasions where he was frustrated and completely destroyed his opponents on some flagrant foul misconduct.

[GBeeParticipant]

 UK’s defense was not an NBA style defense, or at least any good one. There were no multiple efforts or help and recoveries. They gave space, used their size to recover and they switched and stayed a lot.  Teams who constantly switch and stay don’t have to communicate much or "stay on a chain" with every other defender moving in unison to recover. Watching them play defense was like watching the Knicks’ defense under Woodson. Switch, switch switch.  That type of style is generic and eventually leads to mismatches that get taken advantage of, which eventually became UK’s undoing vs Wisconsin. WCS has great physical tools. He’s quick laterally and he has the agility to recover. He can defend in space, but would I trust him to be quarterback a defense? Probably not.  I don’t think he’s an intelligent player.  I also don’t think he’s a physical player.

And yes, Drummond does suck defensivly. He’s a prime example of a player with amazing physical tools, who can’t make good decisions on his feet.  He doesn’t talk, call out rotations, he can be manipulated by fakes and he plays smaller than his size would indicate because he’s soft and doesn’t like physical play. Jordan is better obviously. He has that tenacity, toughness and more consistent motor that Drummond lacks, but what is his true impact as an anchor?  Clips were middle of the pack defensively and sucked in the playoffs, giving up something like 110 points a game.  IMO, a DPOY candidate can’t come from such an average to mediocre defensive team.  If you watch Jordan play, he still makes a ton of mental errors and doesn’t direct his teammates in front of him like the better anchors of the NBA. 

 

[RedshirtParticipant]

I think NBA front offices value offensive skill sets slightly higher than defense in a recent change with the game evolving. This is not a knock on defensive minded players because it takes so much effort and work to become an elite defender. That being said though I personally believe it’s much more difficult to find efficient,  high level and consistent scoring compared to a lock down defender. Reason I say that is due to the fact that there are a few more ways to become a solid defender without even being much of an athlete. You can watch film, study players tendencies, be apart of a system and most importantly work your tail off as there are many examples of this in the NBA.

Reason why Okafor is ranked higher than Cauley- Stein is because you don’t see guys with this size and that low post skill set anymore. He is very polished for his age and has so much more room to expand his offensive skills. Furthermore the reason why Towns is most people’s number one is because he displays promise on both ends of the floor and he may become a very dynamic player one day. 

 

[RedshirtParticipant]

I think NBA front offices value offensive skill sets slightly higher than defense in a recent change with the game evolving. This is not a knock on defensive minded players because it takes so much effort and work to become an elite defender. That being said though I personally believe it’s much more difficult to find efficient,  high level and consistent scoring compared to a lock down defender. Reason I say that is due to the fact that there are a few more ways to become a solid defender without even being much of an athlete. You can watch film, study players tendencies, be apart of a system and most importantly work your tail off as there are many examples of this in the NBA.

Reason why Okafor is ranked higher than Cauley- Stein is because you don’t see guys with this size and that low post skill set anymore. He is very polished for his age and has so much more room to expand his offensive skills. Furthermore the reason why Towns is most people’s number one is because he displays promise on both ends of the floor and he may become a very dynamic player one day. 

 

[trelos6Participant]

So Okafor is a stud in the low post, and Trill is a great shot blocker and defensive anchor.

The big thing people are overlooking is how good Okafor is at passing.  Big Jah is a great passer when he is double teamed.  He also has great handles and can put the ball on the floor.  Sure he is not as good as Kaminsky in this area, but he’s pretty good still.

  

[trelos6Participant]

So Okafor is a stud in the low post, and Trill is a great shot blocker and defensive anchor.

The big thing people are overlooking is how good Okafor is at passing.  Big Jah is a great passer when he is double teamed.  He also has great handles and can put the ball on the floor.  Sure he is not as good as Kaminsky in this area, but he’s pretty good still.

  

[wonzi_bellsParticipant]

I look at Okafor as someone who can get better at defense though. He has physically limitations in his run-jump ability as he can’t quickly get off the ground nor can he move his feet quickly laterally but as far as his actual body measurements, there aren’t a lot of physical limitations there. The man is 6’11 with either a 7’5 wingspan or 7’6 with a monstrous frame to boot. And the giant hands help too. And with that, I think he becomes solid plus-defender by the time his rookie contract is up. The same happened with Brook Lopez and DeMarcus Cousins, who both came in horribly on defense and slowly but surely became smarter defenders, got with the pace of the game, conditioned themselves and learn how to appropriately use what bodily advantages they did have to work on that end. 

And it seemed the defensive changes of the early 2000s has hampered the low post player and most teams are looking to play pace-and-space, there are exceptions and I think Okafor is so. Usually, low post players take to much time to go into their moves and it kills valuble clock time if there isn’t  a good look but Okafor is probably the quickest decision maker in going into his moves, and an array of them at that, that we’ve seen coming into the league since Tim Duncan, so he won’t eat up clock. And he’s a great passer already. Also, just like his body measurements will help him on defense, they’ll really help more on offense since he’s so big. And as erractic as his free throw shooting is, he hasn’t been so bad 10 feet out and with the face-up ball-handling skills that he already has, pairing that as he grows into a shooter will make him even better.

So I still can’t compare this as Cauley-Stein’s defense versus Okafor’s offense.

 

[wonzi_bellsParticipant]

I look at Okafor as someone who can get better at defense though. He has physically limitations in his run-jump ability as he can’t quickly get off the ground nor can he move his feet quickly laterally but as far as his actual body measurements, there aren’t a lot of physical limitations there. The man is 6’11 with either a 7’5 wingspan or 7’6 with a monstrous frame to boot. And the giant hands help too. And with that, I think he becomes solid plus-defender by the time his rookie contract is up. The same happened with Brook Lopez and DeMarcus Cousins, who both came in horribly on defense and slowly but surely became smarter defenders, got with the pace of the game, conditioned themselves and learn how to appropriately use what bodily advantages they did have to work on that end. 

And it seemed the defensive changes of the early 2000s has hampered the low post player and most teams are looking to play pace-and-space, there are exceptions and I think Okafor is so. Usually, low post players take to much time to go into their moves and it kills valuble clock time if there isn’t  a good look but Okafor is probably the quickest decision maker in going into his moves, and an array of them at that, that we’ve seen coming into the league since Tim Duncan, so he won’t eat up clock. And he’s a great passer already. Also, just like his body measurements will help him on defense, they’ll really help more on offense since he’s so big. And as erractic as his free throw shooting is, he hasn’t been so bad 10 feet out and with the face-up ball-handling skills that he already has, pairing that as he grows into a shooter will make him even better.

So I still can’t compare this as Cauley-Stein’s defense versus Okafor’s offense.

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 The NBA has pretty much become a pick and roll league so big men with the athleticism and mobility to hedge and recover on pick and rolls and still get back into position to protect the rim are extremely valuable. Cauley-stein has the physical tools to excel in that area and could potentially to be one of those guys that makes all-defensive teams for years to come. The key word is could. I still think he has a ways to go in terms of understanding where to be on the floor and bball IQ. I also doubt he’ll ever give you much offensively besides lobs and outbacks.

Okafor has naturally slow feet and will probably always struggle on defense, although the right coach would probably be able to devise a system to hide his deficiencies on that end. There is no way that I would take wcs before okafor in this draft, but I do agree that if cauley-stein does reach his potential as a defender, he could in theory be the more valuable player long-term.

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 The NBA has pretty much become a pick and roll league so big men with the athleticism and mobility to hedge and recover on pick and rolls and still get back into position to protect the rim are extremely valuable. Cauley-stein has the physical tools to excel in that area and could potentially to be one of those guys that makes all-defensive teams for years to come. The key word is could. I still think he has a ways to go in terms of understanding where to be on the floor and bball IQ. I also doubt he’ll ever give you much offensively besides lobs and outbacks.

Okafor has naturally slow feet and will probably always struggle on defense, although the right coach would probably be able to devise a system to hide his deficiencies on that end. There is no way that I would take wcs before okafor in this draft, but I do agree that if cauley-stein does reach his potential as a defender, he could in theory be the more valuable player long-term.

 

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 From BC. He is a little taller than Sean but  i have concerns. We will see. Should be a solid defender but will he be engaged with energy everynight? Will he be a defender worth taking in the lottery?

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 From BC. He is a little taller than Sean but  i have concerns. We will see. Should be a solid defender but will he be engaged with energy everynight? Will he be a defender worth taking in the lottery?

[220Participant]

 Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t Sean Williams biggest weakness his lack of work ethic and character. He was arrested multiple times which led to him being kicked off his college team and released from the Nets.

[220Participant]

 Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t Sean Williams biggest weakness his lack of work ethic and character. He was arrested multiple times which led to him being kicked off his college team and released from the Nets.

[sitlbitoParticipant]

 I think you forgot what makes WCS so special on defense. Pick and roll switching. That’s so valuable in today’s NBA when you see the two nba finalists switching a lot in the pick and rolls.

[sitlbitoParticipant]

 I think you forgot what makes WCS so special on defense. Pick and roll switching. That’s so valuable in today’s NBA when you see the two nba finalists switching a lot in the pick and rolls.

[zer0d0ubt]

 It sounds crazy but I think Bobby Portis is better overall than either, at PF or, in a couple years, center.

 

 

[zer0d0ubt]

 It sounds crazy but I think Bobby Portis is better overall than either, at PF or, in a couple years, center.

 

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Portis is underrated although he did not measure well and his lack of reach has the NBA doubting his defensive capabilities.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Portis is underrated although he did not measure well and his lack of reach has the NBA doubting his defensive capabilities.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 I remember everything about Sean and some of those things  were after being drafted as well. Skill set wise not much different. All things considered skill set wise he is not much different. Heaven forbjd he gets paid and lazy. Kid did not dream of being a baller and O has not improved enough. I still have decent hopes for the kid but top 10 pick? 

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 I remember everything about Sean and some of those things  were after being drafted as well. Skill set wise not much different. All things considered skill set wise he is not much different. Heaven forbjd he gets paid and lazy. Kid did not dream of being a baller and O has not improved enough. I still have decent hopes for the kid but top 10 pick? 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Through WCS the ball for alley-oop dunks.  Tyson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan have feasted off those.

I love sky hooks and turn around fadeaway jumpers as much as the next guy, but those aren’t exactly high percentage shots.  

Get the ball and DUNK IT.  Otherwise, get out of the way big man, then go grab the rebound.

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Through WCS the ball for alley-oop dunks.  Tyson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan have feasted off those.

I love sky hooks and turn around fadeaway jumpers as much as the next guy, but those aren’t exactly high percentage shots.  

Get the ball and DUNK IT.  Otherwise, get out of the way big man, then go grab the rebound.

 

 

[SkalAndJamalParticipant]

 ehhh this gets tricky. It’s kinda like saying Tony Allen defense is as good as Carmelo’s offense, therefore they are equal, which is absurd.

 

 Now will WCS be a better player than Okafor? I hope! But will he? I do not know. After seeing Beasley destroy college bball as a freshman and then playing awful in the NBA, I do not know what to say about bigs anymore. However the long, athletic bigs in recent history have done pretty well despite not averaging many pts in college. Davis, Noel, Adams, Dieng have looked to be at least pretty solid. Expect Embiid to join the trend. 

[Sewok15Participant]

Beasley was a bit undersized at the PF but if you look at his numbers and not his reputation his career hasn’t been horrible…the guy can still score. He has averaged 19 Points per 36 minutes for his career and has shot a respectable 45%. He has had his issues keeping his head in the game over the years which has really been his downfall because even with his issues his per minute numbers are pretty comparable to someone like Paul Millsap who just made two straight all star games.

[Sewok15Participant]

Beasley was a bit undersized at the PF but if you look at his numbers and not his reputation his career hasn’t been horrible…the guy can still score. He has averaged 19 Points per 36 minutes for his career and has shot a respectable 45%. He has had his issues keeping his head in the game over the years which has really been his downfall because even with his issues his per minute numbers are pretty comparable to someone like Paul Millsap who just made two straight all star games.

[SkalAndJamalParticipant]

 ehhh this gets tricky. It’s kinda like saying Tony Allen defense is as good as Carmelo’s offense, therefore they are equal, which is absurd.

 

 Now will WCS be a better player than Okafor? I hope! But will he? I do not know. After seeing Beasley destroy college bball as a freshman and then playing awful in the NBA, I do not know what to say about bigs anymore. However the long, athletic bigs in recent history have done pretty well despite not averaging many pts in college. Davis, Noel, Adams, Dieng have looked to be at least pretty solid. Expect Embiid to join the trend. 

[Memphisboy14Participant]

 I do agree with your assessment but why is it that Okafor can’t be good defensively. What are his "Physical limitations?" I think that if you have good mobility, close to 7 feet tall with a 7’5 wingspan you could possibly become a good defender. He doesn’t jump high but he does get off the ground quickly which will help. And his long wingspan will without a doubt alter shots. Marc Gasol I’m sure isn’t as athletic as Okafor yet is one of the best defensive big men in the NBA. Same with Joakim Noah. Just because he isn’t the most athletic doesn’t mean he can’t be good. All of the issues that people have with Okafor are things that can be fixed with good coaching. It’s not like he’s unathletic or undersized. 

[Memphisboy14Participant]

 I do agree with your assessment but why is it that Okafor can’t be good defensively. What are his "Physical limitations?" I think that if you have good mobility, close to 7 feet tall with a 7’5 wingspan you could possibly become a good defender. He doesn’t jump high but he does get off the ground quickly which will help. And his long wingspan will without a doubt alter shots. Marc Gasol I’m sure isn’t as athletic as Okafor yet is one of the best defensive big men in the NBA. Same with Joakim Noah. Just because he isn’t the most athletic doesn’t mean he can’t be good. All of the issues that people have with Okafor are things that can be fixed with good coaching. It’s not like he’s unathletic or undersized. 

[Author]

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