I'm gonna get a lot of stick for posting this (and negs, lol). Though it won't be me arguing as to whether he's a point guard or not. It'll be the video (or the narrator rather). I came across this while browsing for random bball videos. I thought it was interesting (and somewhat an attack on Westbrook) so why not share it here, to once again resume the ongoing debate regarding Westbrook's merits as a point guard. Enjoy :)
If this video was posted already, my bad
I don't think Westbrook a PG either but that doesn't mean he is not as good as Rose and Paul. He still is a top 10 player in this league and he make a big as impact as Rose and Paul. He is just force to play that positon because they need him to. Just like the heat needed Wade to play the point his rookie year. I really believe later in his carrer he will move to the 2 but right now he is thier point guard and like it or not they are winning and thats all to it.
He has his flaws obviously, but to say that he can't be the pg of a championship winning team is extreme. The guy commenting on the video is ignoring the big picture. Yes, Westbrook's pg skills are raw and he is a mediocre defender, but he puts tons of pressure on opposing defenses. He does shoot too much, but he is still an efficient scorer who gets to the free throw line and is extremely productive. He is a top 6 pg in the league and the Thunder are lucky to have a core of him and Durant. They will be a title contender for years if they are smart with their other roster moves. Westbrook's skill set is practically irreplaceable for OKC
Westbrook, may not be a PG to you, but he plays PG for the Thunder.
I haven't heard this comparison before...but what do you guys think of Westbrook being a good comparison for Austin Rivers?
Of course Rivers is shorter and less athletic, but he arguably has better handles and a better shot.
The decision making mistakes that Westbrook made in that video are very similar to the mistakes Austin made this past year.
They're both supposed to be PG's yet they don't actively try to set their other teammates up.
Austin Rivers however can't make up for his mistakes like Westbrook can with his sheer athleticism and strength. So he needs to fix them fast or else imo he'll be merely a rotational player for his the rest of his career.
Westbrook is what he is....and that's a damn good player.
Maybe it's ok in the sense that they both aren't true PG's, but as players they are not very similar at all imo.
I agree Westbrook and Rivers don't share anything in common besides they are scorers.
They're games are not at all similiar not even a tad bit.
Westbrook is just a different athlete than 99.9% of guards out here, he can do things that only millions can dream of and that only ONE guy at his size can do(D.Rose) and I don't even think Rose has the explosive leaping ability that Westbrook has and the dunks he's had this year(Allstar game dunks and that one hand alley oop last week) says it all.
I like the way you worded it better then the way I did.
As dynamic a player as westbrook is, the video does highlight some very good points. Granted its only one game their analyzing here, and I don't watch the Thunder enough to know if it is a truly representative sample, but the plays and points highlighted here almost uniformly make sense as the commentator explains. It has to make you think about how good Westbrook COULD be if he took the time to play a little more under control and look for his teammates a bit more.
I'm a huge Westbrook fan.
The video is correct, the video is very correct, Westbrook plays that way every game, like when the playoffs came and he was jacking everyone was complaining,but little did they know Westbrook has played like that since his Rookie Year, but why fix it if it ain't broke, the Thunder win more when Westbrook shoots more.
I do agree sometimes he should slow down, but that's taking away from his strengths,and when you have a player that can do things nobody at his position can do besides one guy(D.Rose) you must let him do him, you can't hold him back, each year his stats have improved and guess what? So have the Thunders regular season record, and they've went deeper in the playoffs, he's playing the best ball of his life and if the Thunder win the championship, I'm annointing Westbrook the best PG in the game, regardless if he's a true one or not.
Westbrook is the ultimate combo-guard. He's long and strong enough to guard shooting guards but quick and athletic enough to guard point guards. He's not a pure point guard by any means and I really wouldn't be surprised if the Thunder don't win within the next two years, they'll move him to SG and bring a pure PG that can stroke the ball from deep (to spread the floor) and pass the ball extremely well. Thus moving forward with a line-up of PG - Westbrook - Durant - Ibaka - Perkins with Harden, Sefo, Collison, Aldrich, Maynor off the bench.
Damn... I'd like to see Russell Westbrook watch this video and look at his face.
"There's still plenty of time on the clock, but there's Westbrook going barreling at the basket and then pulls up for a threeee... What?!"
with the video. I'm a diehard Westbrook fan like everyone else is.
But, you guys all have to agree. He's an undersized shooting guard at best.
He gets REALLY streaky, yes. But, he can't handle the PG position the way it SHOULD be played.
His athleticism gets him 90% of his points. That's acceptable for a swingman, but not a PG. I don't think they'll win a championship. That's my honest opinion. Jussayin...
First u cant say someone isnt a pg based off one game i wish the video showed different clips from different games. But Why does Westbrook gets all the hate for being who he is at the pg position and Guys like Rose, Wall, dont. Each one plays the game same way. Yea Rose is has a better IQ but if you watch them both they play the same, but he consider the best pg while Westbrook is being bashed because he has to attack and be more aggressive because his team only has 3 scorers. Meaning more pressure for him to produce nightly. And really OKC offense is mostly freelence and one on one sets where Durant,Harden,Westbrook usually all take quick jumpers or force the issue driving sometimes.
Coach Brooks need to do a better job of managing the game and making them run plays and work hard on defense if he doesnt those guys aint going to do it more than likely. Also Westbrook needs a veteran to really help him understand the game more and teach him how the game is really played. Hopefully Fisher can get him to use his mind abit more rather than always relying on his athletic ability.
The game has evolved and will continue to change. We now have PG's who rather score than pass, SG who cant score or shoot, SF wanting to be PG's, PF who would rather shoot 3's than post, C who think they can do it all on the court except dominate the paint. The game has changed alot just because a guy doesnt play like a traditional pg,sg,etc doesnt mean he isnt one. To me Wetbrook is a pg, he just would rather score than pass, and has been taught or forced to play or learn the game the right why. So he goes about it his way, which is pretty darn good if u ask me.
The thing is, Westbrook has been doing this since a rookie. It's really the norm. He's been out of control his entire NBA career.
Maybe Wall does, but I don't think Rose plays that way. Rose has much better decision making and overall IQ about picking and choosing his spots... And change of pace. That's the difference between Rose and Westbrook to me... Rose plays with more control and has better vision. The criticisms concerning Westbrook dribbling the ball down the court and shooting the ball without one pass and his questionable decision making skills are legit. He seems to be in his own world out there sometimes.
There's nothing wrong with being a scoring guard in my opinion, but it's the decision making that bothers me about Westbrook. He's out of control at both ends of the floor. And I think he's a little sensitive to criticism. He seems like one of those guys who'll get upset if you criticize him too hard.
"First u cant say someone isnt a pg based off one game i wish the video showed different clips from different games. But Why does Westbrook gets all the hate for being who he is at the pg position and Guys like Rose, Wall, dont. Each one plays the game same way. Yea Rose is has a better IQ but if you watch them both they play the same, but he consider the best pg while Westbrook is being bashed because he has to attack and be more aggressive because his team only has 3 scorers."
First of all Rose doesn't have Durant. Second of all Rose is just flat out better. He's not anywhere near as out of control as Westbrook is and his decision making has improved dramatically over time, which does not seem to be the case with Westbrook. Rose upped his assists to a career high, lowered his turnovers by about 0.5 and cut off about 4 points from last year, and it was clear he was a much better player early on in the season. Before injuries took their toll, Rose was looking just awesome. Since the injury his turnovers have gone up and his FG% has dropped, but even now he averages less turnovers and way more assists then Russell. Westbrook is actually shooting more then last season and his assists have dropped nearly three per game from last year and his assist to turnover ratio is 1.5 compared to 2.5 for Rose, big difference.
IB and Y2G I said Rose IQ is better than his and he makes smarter decesion and plays under more control but thats really the only deference in there game and the fact that he does it without a guy like Durant makes it better and him better. Im not saying he's better than Rose or anything once or if Westbrook ever matures and learn to play the game he can compete with Rose. But if everyone is going to say Westbrook isnt a pg but then says Rose is the top point gaurd in the game when they play the same style one just plays it better than the other i just dont get it.
Another reason Rose is better is because the Bulls have structure and a great foundation of how they want and need to play. OKC wants Westbrook to be reckless and dangerous because thats when they are at their best. They have no structure, foundation or anything they rely on 3 skilled guys to play their 3 different types of styles of play and tries to mesh them together. Rose plays with a coach he takes no bull&$#%#&@! and vetertsn teammates who dont either. If you put Westbrook in the Bulls organization maybe he becomes more mature, grows up and more stabalized as a pg, but as long as he's with the Thunder and their objective is to play young, care free, and with passion, Westbrook is going to be the same guy. Im not saying he cant change but he defenitly needs someone to guide him.
I wonder if the Thunder would have the #1 record if Westbrook missed... say.... 20 games?
"But if everyone is going to say Westbrook isnt a pg but then says Rose is the top point gaurd in the game when they play the same style one just plays it better than the other i just dont get it."
That's the thing though, they are similar athletes who are both potent scorers, but like you've said yourself Rose is smarter and more under control. That's the difference and that;s why he gets credit that Westbrook doesn't. Rose is much more patient and despite being an elite scorer, he actually has good PG skills while Westbrook doesn't. They are both really athletic and like to attack the rim but that doesn't get rid of the fact that Rose's PG skills and understanding of the game are superior to Westbrook's.
Tonight at this point...
4/15 3 assists 6 T0s....not exacty PG type numbers
Tonight at this point...
4/15 3 assists 6 T0s....not exacty PG type numbers
With saying that ur basically saying Westbrook play is a big part of how the Thunder play and they wouldn't be as successful as the Bull have been without Rose. Like i keep saying Westbrook plays that way because Caoch Brooks and his staff and everyone on OKC allows it because thats when he's at his best and thats when They are at their best. If he was being coached by say Doc Rivers, coach Tibbs, or Pop Westbrook would have learned the game and how to play. Look at what they have done for Parker, Rose, and Rondo. Sometimes all someone needs is someone who going to give it to him straight and make him work hard, buy in, and learn the game, and just plain be tough with them. Thats all Westbrook needs someone who going to teach and lead him, instead of him being able to do what he wants without consequences or guidance.
What im trying to say is u cant say Westbrook isnt a pg because the kid didn't and hasent learned to play the position the right way yet. And if you look at both of their stats from last year both guys are pretty similar in every caterogory except Rose scored a 3-4 more points. And both of there teams lost in the same round of the playoffs. Yea Westbook has Durant, but Rose has the better team overall so both guys have their advantages their.
That's exactly what I was insinuating. He means so much more to the Thunder because of the way he plays. Durant cannot and doesn't know how to control the tempo of the game, that's why Westbrook does it. He keeps them at this high-tempo and high-octane play style. I think we take for granted how good Westbrook is defensively and how bad Rose is. Only difference is, Thibs defensive sets are genius and he sets Rose up with guys like Brewer, Deng, Noah, Gibson that can all play defense at several positions. Westbrook is the 2nd best defensive player on his team, aside from Ibaka, who is a DPOY candidate.
Now, I'm not saying Russell Westbrook is better than Rose, they are two completely different players but it's not as big a gap as we think. Westbrook's jumpshot is finally coming along and his athleticism is out of this world.
I still believe, when under control, he's the best scoring point guard in the league. When out of control, he's the 3rd best, behind Rose and D-Will.
Oh mybad man, but yea the only reason he plays the way he does is because OKC needs him to play that way. I Tibbs does any excellent job of hiding Rose lack of defense. To be so athletic it a wonder he doesnt use it defensively. But like u said the gap between isnt big, and thats why i cant get why everyone is saying he isnt a pg, but D Rose is supposely the best in the bussiness. To be honest neither can hold a candle to Chris Paul as the top pg to me, because he's has it all.
I am laughing at how this guy is showing highlights to ONE game to backup his opinion. Although it is a great analysis. I wish he would show more footage to back up his opinion. It is amazing how overblown this stuff is when you pick and choose the plays to show.
Yeah, I agree with the fact that if you can't call Westbrook a PG, you shouldn't call Derrick Rose a PG. Neither of them are pure but I think the reason we're more reluctant to call Westbrook a combo guard or SG is simply because he can defend both positions and defend them effectively. Not only that, he can score against them at will. Whereas Derrick Rose struggles guarding guys his own size, now imagine trying to guard guys like Kobe or Wade, they would eat him alive.
To put it simple, the fact that Westbrook is multi-talented enough on defense, he has the ability to guard shooting guards whereas Rose can hardly guard PGs. Which is why it's easier to call Westbrook a combo guard or SG.
I don't think it's a knock on Westbrook to be honest. Being the ultimate combo-guard is what Dwyane Wade was earlier in his career and nobody thought anything less of him.
Rose's PG skills this year are much better then they were last year, although from watching the two play last season Rose's were still superior to Westbrook's.
"What im trying to say is u cant say Westbrook isnt a pg because the kid didn't and hasent learned to play the position the right way yet"
I absolutely can say this. It's been four years and he hasn't really improved his distributing and decision making to a reasonal level. Am I saying he'll never be a PG? No, but he does not play like one now. Rose has imrpoved his PG skills every season, it was really evident in the beginning of this season.
Basically what I'm saying is I can't call him a true PG because he doesn't play like one and doesn't have the ability to (at the momemnt) even if he wanted. Rose does. I'm not saying he's a bad player, because he's an excellent one, he just can't play PG effectively.
The dude avg 8 assits last year and the year before so he definetly can distribute the ball, hes taken a hit this year in assist only because he his scoring is up and he taking more shots, and Harden is running the offense for parts of the game. And you called Rose a true pg lol Rose isnt a true pg, the only real true pg are Paul,Rondo,Nash,Parker,Kidd,Williams those guys first purpose is to run the team and distrubute, and score when needed.
Alright I misspoke, Rose is a PG not a true PG, Westbrook is a combo guard. I mean I guess you just have to watch them play a lot to see the difference.
I think people are missing the whole point. Westbrook is more effective being agressive. Sometimes that agression will make him look dumb on some plays. He is a combo guard. He is not perfect. I think people want players to be these perfect players. I mean even MJ was not a perfect player. Westbrook does what he has too for this team. Also trying to compare a Spurs team with a whole bunch of veterans and the same system for a decade is not fair. Also in the playoffs, Spurs does not want to see Memphis or Lakers. OKC does not match up well with San Antonio.
I forgot Rubio, and Lowry plays like true point too.
Scott DO NOT "allow" Westbrook to do that... You don't remember the Eric Manor incident??? Westbrook has NEVER missed a game so its no way to actually tell if the Thunder will win or not without Westbrook... And how does it look if the coach bench a "star" player that's not injured?? He take terrible shots all the time and if he's not hitting that pull up jumper my lawd will he continue to take it till he does...
I'm not a huge fan of Skip Bayless and I think he's an idiot BUT he's right about Westbrook... He take too many shots when you have a Top 3 player on your team that can shoot lights out... At times I don't even think its fair because Westbrook is normally the one bringing the ball up and the rest of the team can't even touch the rock... He doesn't understand pace at all and love going to the hole like a mad man just reckless...
The worst thing about him though is his defense... When he came into the league he was suppose to be "Rondo" remember??? Now he has no interest at that end... Its just saddening... I'm sure I will get negs for this but I REALLY think his maturation as a player came because he was allowed to fawk up... I can't imagine any other rookies (other than D. Rose) being allowed to be THAT out of control and still get starters minutes... If the Sonics would have took Bayless instead I think he would be an All-Star while Westbrook would be fighting for a spot... The way the cookie crumbles I guess... Great talent, too aggressive...
Like LeBron last year, maybe it will take him losing this year to understand he needs to work on his game... Because its simply not good basketball...
A lot of yall crediting OKC success to Westbrook... What about Durant becoming more efficient and rebounding?? James Harden?? Ibaka leading the league in blocks?? If you "actually" look at Westbrook numbers he was responsible for more points last year... Its a compact year, playoffs and next year should be a true assessment of this team anyway...
The team is excellent with Westbrook as the primary 1. Harden handles a lot of the PG duties when he's in, and I'd love to have seen what Westbrook can do off ball with Maynor at the 1. He's a great cutter and excellent rebounder. I like when he plays off ball, but he's perfectly capable of sharing the PG duties with the way this team is built. I'm honestly more concerned with how rarely he seems really locked in on D.
Westbrook is the BEST out of control player i've ever seen lol
I mean he's a top 10 player right now while being wildly out of control.....Just think if he was in control??
Is he top 10? Lebron, Durant, Wade, Dwight, Kobe, Dirk, Rose, and Paul are the class of the league with Love maybe joining them (not trying to open this can of worms again). That's 9, but there's a crowd for 10 with Westbrook, Bynum, Melo, Pau, Deron, Pierce, Lamarcus and others.
I mean to each his own, everyone has a different top 10, I think he's top 10.
His numbers go up every year, the Thunder get better and go further every year.
Rookie Year: 15.3 PPG, 5.3 APG, 4.9 RPG, 27% 3pt, 39% FG. Thunder Record: 23-59, No Playoffs
2nd Year: 16.1 PPG, 8.0 APG, 4.9 RPG, 22% 3pt, 41% FG. Thunder Record: 50-32, Lost first round
3rd Year: 21.9 PPG, 8.2 APG, 4.6 RPG, 33% 3pt, 44% FG. Thunder Record: 55-27, Lost WC Finals
This Year: 24.1 PPG, 5.4 APG, 4.5 RPG, 32% 3pt, 46%FG. Thunder Record: 44-17(3rd best NBA) Playoffs:?
Sure Durant,Harden,Ibaka,etc all have gotten better and contribute as well, but you go as far as your PG takes you and it's clear to see as Westbrook rolls and gets better so do the Thunder.
but bball is finally not about stat' but about what you bring on the court. Stat' are a TOOL only to add something to our analys which is based on what we see on the court.
Afterall when you watch a game, westbrook always seems to make the wrong decision (even if sometimes it works cause he's talented) and force things. I think this thunder team is full of usefull player (knowing their role), has a great coaching staff but westbrook don't look as the man who can help them winning a ring as a pg.
It's not about stat's your right but everything goes into favor for Westbrook, even tho he makes bonehead plays,he makes the Thunder go.
the stat' are not all perfect ; assists ??? for a pg on a team with durant and harden...
"Westbrook is the BEST out of control player i've ever seen lol.
I mean he's a top 10 player right now while being wildly out of control.....Just think if he was in control??"
THAT is exactly right and that is why he's not the kind of guy helping you to win the ring (now... maybe he will in the future). He's not under control and as a pg he has the ball in his hand very often...
Some players are not necessarily defined by or confined to a position. Russ is such a player. He is not the traditional PG in the sense of CP3 or Rondo....but then again, neither is Derrick Fisher.
I like what Jalen Rose said the other day that "positions only exist so novices can follow the game".
Russ is a basketball player. Capable of playing PG, SG, and even some SF in certain situations. Kevin Durant can play SG. Its just a position really. When it comes to the X's and O's however.....it depends on their effectiveness as to where they will play most.
Russ may not be the best PG, but I dont know if he would be more effective at SG either. Bedrock made a good point, just because he is not as good at playing Point as some others, doesnt mean he isnt a better basketball player.
Man, the assist numbers are down, but the Thunder are 20-4 when Westbrook shoots more than Durant, I mean what more do you want me to say?
lol nothing... you are a good lawyer for him.
let's wait the PO to see how he'll respond when defenses are for real and you confront the same team several games in a row adn in a short stint (with adjustments from the defense and the other team)
is top 10... A lot of folks put him up there but he simply haven't had success in the playoffs like D Will?? Rondo?? D. Rose?? If you going to fault Melo for only going into the second round once in his career what about CP3??? Does he get a pass???
Westbrook is a POINTS guard not a POINT guard.
Chris Paul is definitly top 10. Only reason he hasn't had much playoff success is because his teams have never been talented. The best players he have played with have been David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic. And when all were healthy Paul lead them to the conference finals or they lost in game 7 to the Spurs in the semi.
I can only wonder... YES, the Thunder are winning games now but if Russell Westbrook continues to play like this, wouldn't it hurt them in the long run?