[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

I wouldn’t have a problem with Lebron James having a 4-2 record in the championship and being in the top 5 GOAT discussion. I am tired of this narrative that he didn’t have enough help for a few reasons. 

1. 2 of those champsionship losses had Bosh and Wade. 
2. You cannot give Lebron the credit for making his teammates better in wins, and then also not give him blame for not elevating his teammates in losses. It’s one or the other. 

I’ve watched all of those championship losses, and Lebron’s stats don’t tell the whole thing. Part of the beef that many have with Lebron is that, in big games, he seems passive and a bit tight. Last night this was true also. 

I’d take Lebron on my Celtics, and any fan would take Lebron on their team,  he has passivity will prevent him from ever being the GOAT. If he can win a few more championships, he might move up the top 5. 

 

 

 

[slash787Participant]

 LeBrons first ever championship experience against the Spurs counts as a negative? The fact the Cavs were in the finals was ridiculous to begin with when you look at that roster. The Spurs were a superior team against that Cavs team. This year the Cavs were decimated by injuries. If they have Kyrie and Love and they lose you can blame LeBron. 

Realistically and objectively you can hate on LeBron for 2 finals series (Mavs and Spurs last year) this year and his first title series you’re just being a hater because there was basically no chance he was winning because he had inferior talent compared to the other team.

[slash787Participant]

 LeBrons first ever championship experience against the Spurs counts as a negative? The fact the Cavs were in the finals was ridiculous to begin with when you look at that roster. The Spurs were a superior team against that Cavs team. This year the Cavs were decimated by injuries. If they have Kyrie and Love and they lose you can blame LeBron. 

Realistically and objectively you can hate on LeBron for 2 finals series (Mavs and Spurs last year) this year and his first title series you’re just being a hater because there was basically no chance he was winning because he had inferior talent compared to the other team.

[kingofbumsParticipant]

The only real loss ppl can argue and say it was really his fault was the one to the mavs. Real talk, he was terrible and he was to blame. But the loss last year wasnt his fault. He played very very well, its just unfortunate that his teammates didnt show up. Wade wasnt the same either. Then you look at the 07 loss and this years loss and lets face it, ppl didnt expect them to even make it to the finals let alone win two against a statistically top 10 team in nba history. Everyone thought there was no way the cavs could win after kyries injury yet he somehow gave everyone hope and now you acting like he was expected to win this one.  

[kingofbumsParticipant]

The only real loss ppl can argue and say it was really his fault was the one to the mavs. Real talk, he was terrible and he was to blame. But the loss last year wasnt his fault. He played very very well, its just unfortunate that his teammates didnt show up. Wade wasnt the same either. Then you look at the 07 loss and this years loss and lets face it, ppl didnt expect them to even make it to the finals let alone win two against a statistically top 10 team in nba history. Everyone thought there was no way the cavs could win after kyries injury yet he somehow gave everyone hope and now you acting like he was expected to win this one.  

[B-ball fanParticipant]

 Going into last night, the Cavs were shooting 18.2% from the field with LeBron off the floor.  The team had an eFG% of 28.2 on shots not taken or assisted by LeBron.  His team was just overmatched big time.

[B-ball fanParticipant]

 Going into last night, the Cavs were shooting 18.2% from the field with LeBron off the floor.  The team had an eFG% of 28.2 on shots not taken or assisted by LeBron.  His team was just overmatched big time.

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

 

 

 

Regarding point number 1 – What about the fact that the Spurs offense was insane for the last 2-3 games in 2014? I don’t think any modern team would be able to withstand they did. Their shooting was downright historic. 

In 2011 finals I think it is a fair to say Lebron was poor but I would say it was teething problems for the whole team. Wade has also been in decline since then – his production clearly declined in each of the following 3 playoff runs.

I don’t believe he is in the conversation for GOAT at this moment though. I just don’t think his record in the finals is all that much to do with him – like others are saying, it’s a team game and the better team won last night.

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

It’s just that, at some point, you gotta stand back and look at the "reasons" or excuses that you have to make for his greatness. Excuses range from the oppposing team being too good, to not having enough talent, to not having the right pieces, to whatever else. 

I think he is a great player, but as fans, at some point we have to stop allowing these "reasons" to be excuses for him. The fact is, he is 2-4 in championship series.

 

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

You know what I think I agree with you, it does sound like a bunch of excuses. But I will say they did surprisingly well to get to the finals with that team even if they are in the East.

If they didn’t even make it past Atlanta I have to question if it would be as damaging to his ‘legacy" as losing in the finals did?

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

I’m gonna keep losing points with these posts – Lebron is a top ten player all-time right now, pushing into the 4-6 range. His greatness single-handedly got them to game 6 of the championship. 

That being said, anyone watching that game last night saw that he was a bit more passive than his team needed him to be and saw that he had key defensive lapses. In many big games, he has come up big, but in many big games, he has also been passive and had lapses defensively. That has led to a 2-4 record in the championship (almost 1-5 if it weren’t for Ray Allen). 

Lebron’s style of play and personality can only win if things are going for him and if the pieces are perfect. He does not have the ability to CONSISTENTLY will his team to a victory. 

I thought after that Celtics game 6 a few years ago he figured out how do that. One of the big three was out, he was facing his nemisis, and he put up a game for the ages. His attitude aggressive and he made every play. 

That was not the attitude of Lebron last night. 

 

 

 

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

I’m gonna keep losing points with these posts – Lebron is a top ten player all-time right now, pushing into the 4-6 range. His greatness single-handedly got them to game 6 of the championship. 

That being said, anyone watching that game last night saw that he was a bit more passive than his team needed him to be and saw that he had key defensive lapses. In many big games, he has come up big, but in many big games, he has also been passive and had lapses defensively. That has led to a 2-4 record in the championship (almost 1-5 if it weren’t for Ray Allen). 

Lebron’s style of play and personality can only win if things are going for him and if the pieces are perfect. He does not have the ability to CONSISTENTLY will his team to a victory. 

I thought after that Celtics game 6 a few years ago he figured out how do that. One of the big three was out, he was facing his nemisis, and he put up a game for the ages. His attitude aggressive and he made every play. 

That was not the attitude of Lebron last night. 

 

 

 

 

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

You know what I think I agree with you, it does sound like a bunch of excuses. But I will say they did surprisingly well to get to the finals with that team even if they are in the East.

If they didn’t even make it past Atlanta I have to question if it would be as damaging to his ‘legacy" as losing in the finals did?

 

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

double post

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

double post

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

It’s just that, at some point, you gotta stand back and look at the "reasons" or excuses that you have to make for his greatness. Excuses range from the oppposing team being too good, to not having enough talent, to not having the right pieces, to whatever else. 

I think he is a great player, but as fans, at some point we have to stop allowing these "reasons" to be excuses for him. The fact is, he is 2-4 in championship series.

 

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

 

 

 

Regarding point number 1 – What about the fact that the Spurs offense was insane for the last 2-3 games in 2014? I don’t think any modern team would be able to withstand they did. Their shooting was downright historic. 

In 2011 finals I think it is a fair to say Lebron was poor but I would say it was teething problems for the whole team. Wade has also been in decline since then – his production clearly declined in each of the following 3 playoff runs.

I don’t believe he is in the conversation for GOAT at this moment though. I just don’t think his record in the finals is all that much to do with him – like others are saying, it’s a team game and the better team won last night.

 

[RedshirtParticipant]

LeBron did what he could in my opinion to give his team the best chance to win in this series. His record in the finals doesn’t bother me at all when I think about his legacy. How many great players didn’t even make it to the finals their entire career? Shaq said on TNT one night he was swept 6 or 7 times in his career. I could name a long list of players that would kill to be even in the finals once let alone get to the finals 6 times. Yes he did lose in the finals several times but he made it there and won twice. At this point he can only improve his legacy.

[RedshirtParticipant]

LeBron did what he could in my opinion to give his team the best chance to win in this series. His record in the finals doesn’t bother me at all when I think about his legacy. How many great players didn’t even make it to the finals their entire career? Shaq said on TNT one night he was swept 6 or 7 times in his career. I could name a long list of players that would kill to be even in the finals once let alone get to the finals 6 times. Yes he did lose in the finals several times but he made it there and won twice. At this point he can only improve his legacy.

[druneave3Participant]

 There is definitely some truth to your argument. The game of basketball can be affected more by one player than any other team sport, but it is still a team game. NBA championship teams have an average of 3.5 HOF’ers on them. Yes, he had one of the greatest shooting guards in the league’s history and Bosh when they lost two, but you must give some credit to two of the greatest power forwards of all time (Duncan and Dirk). 

The 2015 Cavs Finals roster had the lowest WinShares (minus the one superstar – Bron) in the history of the NBA. The 2001 Iverson lead 76ers were a close second. Can you guess what team ranks as the third worst? The 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers. 

Let’s just hear some names on those teams who LeBron would be passing to when double and triple teamed, stop me when you see a Hall Of Famer: Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, Boobie Gibson, Scott Pollard, Eric Snow. The second leading scorer on the team was Larry Hughes. Since his current team has worse WinShare totals than that lineup I won’t cause you any more pain by going over their names but just say that the second best performer during the finals was a guy named Delly. 

There is definitely some truth to your point about folding in big games and tightening up, but no other player could be doing what LeBron has done with those  two terrible, historically Terri lie rosters. 

[druneave3Participant]

 There is definitely some truth to your argument. The game of basketball can be affected more by one player than any other team sport, but it is still a team game. NBA championship teams have an average of 3.5 HOF’ers on them. Yes, he had one of the greatest shooting guards in the league’s history and Bosh when they lost two, but you must give some credit to two of the greatest power forwards of all time (Duncan and Dirk). 

The 2015 Cavs Finals roster had the lowest WinShares (minus the one superstar – Bron) in the history of the NBA. The 2001 Iverson lead 76ers were a close second. Can you guess what team ranks as the third worst? The 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers. 

Let’s just hear some names on those teams who LeBron would be passing to when double and triple teamed, stop me when you see a Hall Of Famer: Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, Boobie Gibson, Scott Pollard, Eric Snow. The second leading scorer on the team was Larry Hughes. Since his current team has worse WinShare totals than that lineup I won’t cause you any more pain by going over their names but just say that the second best performer during the finals was a guy named Delly. 

There is definitely some truth to your point about folding in big games and tightening up, but no other player could be doing what LeBron has done with those  two terrible, historically Terri lie rosters. 

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

Only matters when comparing to Jordan. That’s it. End of discussion.

Just because LBJ isn’t THE definitive GOAT doesn’t mean he’s not ONE OF THE GREATEST ALL TIME.

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

I agree with this statement. And i’ve said it before.. the mere fact that someone could be so constantly compared to Jordan is a testament to greatness.

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

"the mere fact that someone could be so constantly compared to Jordan is a testament to greatness." – I tell people this all the time man haha

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

"the mere fact that someone could be so constantly compared to Jordan is a testament to greatness." – I tell people this all the time man haha

[PhillytheKid]

he gets compared to Jordan to show where he falls short.   

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

I understand that he falls short, but why is it MJ and not say, Scotty Pippen for example? (same position, more similar type of player)

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

I understand that he falls short, but why is it MJ and not say, Scotty Pippen for example? (same position, more similar type of player)

[PhillytheKid]

he gets compared to Jordan to show where he falls short.   

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

I agree with this statement. And i’ve said it before.. the mere fact that someone could be so constantly compared to Jordan is a testament to greatness.

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

Only matters when comparing to Jordan. That’s it. End of discussion.

Just because LBJ isn’t THE definitive GOAT doesn’t mean he’s not ONE OF THE GREATEST ALL TIME.

[herceg_bukuParticipant]

 I feel like i am way off but i count lebron being in the finals 6 times and out of those 6 times he won it only twice? Please cans omeone clear it up for me.

I know he was with Cleveland in the finals 1, Miami 4, and again with Clevland 1. So why does it say on the topic he is 2/4 when he really is 2/6? no?

 

 

[kingofbumsParticipant]

 sigh, yes he is 2 of 6 but the record shows as 2-4. – and / is a big difference

[herceg_bukuParticipant]

 Ok yeah now looking at it i read it wrong thanks

[herceg_bukuParticipant]

 Ok yeah now looking at it i read it wrong thanks

[kingofbumsParticipant]

 sigh, yes he is 2 of 6 but the record shows as 2-4. – and / is a big difference

[herceg_bukuParticipant]

 I feel like i am way off but i count lebron being in the finals 6 times and out of those 6 times he won it only twice? Please cans omeone clear it up for me.

I know he was with Cleveland in the finals 1, Miami 4, and again with Clevland 1. So why does it say on the topic he is 2/4 when he really is 2/6? no?

 

 

[doubledribblerParticipant]

Just curious, but for those mentioning his 2-4 record in finals are the rest of you pretty much calling Malone, Stockton and Barkley garbage? You can add in guys like Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Chris Webber, Artis Gilmore, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, Pistol Pete, Dominique, Allen Iverson, Elgin Baylor. I mean you might as well add in Gary Payton that went championship chasing as an old man to finally get one riding Riley, Shaq, and Wade.

By this standard of championships Bill Russell is the all time greatest player. No questions asked. Even if we give Jordan those 2 imaginary titles that people want to hand him that puts him at 8 which is 3 short.

I guess I’m just looking for consistency in the arguments. Just not sure most people are willing to do that.

[doubledribblerParticipant]

Just curious, but for those mentioning his 2-4 record in finals are the rest of you pretty much calling Malone, Stockton and Barkley garbage? You can add in guys like Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Chris Webber, Artis Gilmore, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, Pistol Pete, Dominique, Allen Iverson, Elgin Baylor. I mean you might as well add in Gary Payton that went championship chasing as an old man to finally get one riding Riley, Shaq, and Wade.

By this standard of championships Bill Russell is the all time greatest player. No questions asked. Even if we give Jordan those 2 imaginary titles that people want to hand him that puts him at 8 which is 3 short.

I guess I’m just looking for consistency in the arguments. Just not sure most people are willing to do that.

[Pro-21Participant]

 I hated listening to Mark Jackson’s commentary about LeBron’s being passive. In the beginning of the game he looked ready to go, but because mozgov was out there and jumpshooters and other players weren’t making the warriors pay, the lanes were really clogged. Bron’ drove to the basket but was met by like three defenders everytime. He didn’t miss any easy buckets. 

I think the Titles are all too situational to be such a heavy part of evaluating someone’s legacy. Losing in the finals is better than losing in the conference championship, which MJ did at least twice. Before beating the pistons, MJ also lost in the first round. Now I know that one of those times he was playing an all time great celtics team, but fans and would-be analysts never like to take those factors into consideration when LeBron loses, no matter how staggering the odds.

There are just as many people saying that LeBron shouldve passed the ball more as there are people saying he shouldve shot the ball more. The fact is this: LeBron’s team never had a legitimate shot at the title without Kyrie, Love and Varajao, but LeBron’s dominance and versatility made it seem like it was a game of inches, and he could simply try a bit harder and "will" his team to victory. The reality is, it took EVERY ounce of his energy just to make it look like the cavs almost had a chance. He "willed" this team of fourth, seventh and eighth offensive options to within two games of a championship against one of the greatest teams of all time (statistically). He "willed" his team to defeat a 2007 pistons team that was still in champion form. 

The LeBron not being clutch narrative is just silly. Everyone wants to think about taking and making the last shot, but honestly, Kobe, MJ, Duncan, Shaq… etc, wouldn’t even have gotten this cavs to Game 6 to make a last second shot. 

 

 Mj is amazing and his all around ability is close to unmatched … BUT if you think that he could do what LeBron just did in his 12th season in the NBA, or arguably at any point, you are mistaken.

 

 

 

 

[Pro-21Participant]

 I hated listening to Mark Jackson’s commentary about LeBron’s being passive. In the beginning of the game he looked ready to go, but because mozgov was out there and jumpshooters and other players weren’t making the warriors pay, the lanes were really clogged. Bron’ drove to the basket but was met by like three defenders everytime. He didn’t miss any easy buckets. 

I think the Titles are all too situational to be such a heavy part of evaluating someone’s legacy. Losing in the finals is better than losing in the conference championship, which MJ did at least twice. Before beating the pistons, MJ also lost in the first round. Now I know that one of those times he was playing an all time great celtics team, but fans and would-be analysts never like to take those factors into consideration when LeBron loses, no matter how staggering the odds.

There are just as many people saying that LeBron shouldve passed the ball more as there are people saying he shouldve shot the ball more. The fact is this: LeBron’s team never had a legitimate shot at the title without Kyrie, Love and Varajao, but LeBron’s dominance and versatility made it seem like it was a game of inches, and he could simply try a bit harder and "will" his team to victory. The reality is, it took EVERY ounce of his energy just to make it look like the cavs almost had a chance. He "willed" this team of fourth, seventh and eighth offensive options to within two games of a championship against one of the greatest teams of all time (statistically). He "willed" his team to defeat a 2007 pistons team that was still in champion form. 

The LeBron not being clutch narrative is just silly. Everyone wants to think about taking and making the last shot, but honestly, Kobe, MJ, Duncan, Shaq… etc, wouldn’t even have gotten this cavs to Game 6 to make a last second shot. 

 

 Mj is amazing and his all around ability is close to unmatched … BUT if you think that he could do what LeBron just did in his 12th season in the NBA, or arguably at any point, you are mistaken.

 

 

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 well, LeBron is in good company.  Wilt also went 2-4 in the Finals.

LeBron can’t catch Bill Russell in the ring count, MJ in terms of scoring titles or Magic in terms of assist titles, so you say that he has a great overall body of work, but nothing off the charts.  Still time though.

If I had to rank the all time greats, I would have MJ at 1, then a bunch of guys tied at 2.  Same for the rest of the top 10 — clusters of guys.

1.  Michael Jordan

2. TIE Wilt Chamberlain

     Bill Russell

    Kareem Abdul Jabbar

   Magic Johnson

6.    TIE Larry Bird

    LeBron James

    Tim Duncan

   Shaq

    Kobe

11.  TIE  Oscar Robertson

                Jerry West

              Hakeem Olajuwon

14.   TIE   John Stockton

                Karl Malone

16.  TIE  (the old guys)

            George Mikan

            Bob Petit

18.   TIE (the ABA and Sixers guys)

            Moses Malone

            Julius Erving

20.  Scottie Pippen

21.  Charles Barkley

22.   Isiah Thomas

23.   John Havlicek

24.   David Robinson

25.   Kevin Garnett

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s my top 15.  Hard to rank each guy, I just went with a grouping system.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 well, LeBron is in good company.  Wilt also went 2-4 in the Finals.

LeBron can’t catch Bill Russell in the ring count, MJ in terms of scoring titles or Magic in terms of assist titles, so you say that he has a great overall body of work, but nothing off the charts.  Still time though.

If I had to rank the all time greats, I would have MJ at 1, then a bunch of guys tied at 2.  Same for the rest of the top 10 — clusters of guys.

1.  Michael Jordan

2. TIE Wilt Chamberlain

     Bill Russell

    Kareem Abdul Jabbar

   Magic Johnson

6.    TIE Larry Bird

    LeBron James

    Tim Duncan

   Shaq

    Kobe

11.  TIE  Oscar Robertson

                Jerry West

              Hakeem Olajuwon

14.   TIE   John Stockton

                Karl Malone

16.  TIE  (the old guys)

            George Mikan

            Bob Petit

18.   TIE (the ABA and Sixers guys)

            Moses Malone

            Julius Erving

20.  Scottie Pippen

21.  Charles Barkley

22.   Isiah Thomas

23.   John Havlicek

24.   David Robinson

25.   Kevin Garnett

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s my top 15.  Hard to rank each guy, I just went with a grouping system.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Author]

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