whos the most skilled player ever?
I'd go with Bird. He was not a good athlete, but somehow managed to be one of the greatest ever.
i was thinkin more of the lines of kurt rambis
Skilled? Jordan? It doesnt matter how athletic he was he's an all time great anyway. Steve Nash, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Walton, Jabbar, Gervin, Frazier get nods from me.
jordans the goat becasue he was more efficient, but if we are just talkng total skills, kobe has every skill jordan had and some.
i choose bird with magic in a close second
LLPerez I agree, I think in a skill by skill comparison, Kobe probably wins. I also think that in his prime, Kobe was a comparable athlete, although perhaps not quite as good. But people tend to forget some of the nasty dunks he threw down on a regular basis. I think the reason Jordan was better just comes down to intangibles.
he has the skill set of a guard in a forward-center's body. footwork dribbling and anything else. plus his high iq
I think this is easy.....nobody even close......I thought about KG until I realized that he is only 2 inches taller and could never dream of playing PG....
Seriously, what skill did Kobe have that was better than Jordan. Dont worry I'll wait. Jordan was a better midrange shooter, better rebounder, better post player, slasher, ball handler, passer, defender on and off the ball. Only think is three point maybe. Except that when ever he shot alot of threes he mad a lot of threes. Seriously, saying Kobe is better than Jordan in virtually anything is an insult to the complete package that was Michael Jordan. Kobe makes nice loking moves, but nothing he does is more effective than Jordan at any point in his career. Shouldnt how effect he is be the measure of how good he is?
Kobe's not Jordan. He will never be Jordan. If he was, he would have show the utter dominance that Jordan did EVERY MINUTE of EVERY GAME he played. No wierd moments. No 4 point first halves. No questionable defense. Just destruction of everyone. The thing with Jordan is that he wa sthe most relentless basketball player of all time, right up there with Bird and Magic. Kobe is equal the competitor, but an inferior basketball player. Lebron, while probably one of the most talent basketball players, but you wonder if he's that level of competitor.
Tracy McGrady deserves some mention.
mkadaoza, jordan was by no means a better ball handler. Kobe is a better 3 point shooter, ball handler, better left hand(even jordan admitted he wished he had a better left hand), kobe is better at hitting contested shots. The post moves are the same. I might give jordan the edge in mid range game and thats it. Again, not saying kobe is better since jordan was more efficient, but skill skill kobe can do everything on the court jordan could do and more.
As for your second coment, jordan DOMINATED EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY GAME. lol, come on man, now i know im tlalking to a nut hugger. No wierd moments? How about his poor play in the 96 finals where he shot 41% and was like 5-18 and 6-19 in 2 of the 3 close out games and needed his teammates to step up. You know the same stuff kobe gets ripped on for in this past finals.
Duncan and Jordan are solid picks but Magic and Bird have to be top two. Magic because of the size and what he could do with the ball and Bird because the lack of athleticism and the pure basketball talent he had. Ill go with Bird #1 though.
Not the most skilled but Pete Maravich was a magician but had a disappointing career. Hes right behind these guys i think.
he is pretty high on this list too but Magic is so far and away the most skilled player ever especially if you are taking size into consideration.....
Post moves may be the same, but Jordan has always been a more effective post player. I would argue that Jordan and Kobe are just as streaky from be hind the arc.
And its not jsu stuff he been ripped for in the ;last Finals. He's been in Finals where he walked in with the favored team only to lose, or to play "off" himself. And this isnt about missing. This is about playing like Lebron did when he said his elbow was injured. This is about being passive, not becaus ethats how he wanted to play, but to prove a point, to say "oh, I shoot too much? well, now i wont shoot at all. how do you like that" like hes proving something. And its been multiple series in multiple years. I've watched both careers with equal attention, and I'm sorry, Jordan is flat better. How many time does Kobe use his left to finish? And more importantly, how many time did he take that shot with two to three men in his face?
Excuse me, but I'll take the the guy with better shot selection and equal finishing ability. Thats why Kobes career fg% is 45.5% and Jordans is 49.7%. Because Jordan didnt settle. Period.
But we weren't talking about those things. We are talking about skills. Not who is the better player.
agree, jordan didnt settle. Thats why he is better. I admit that. But thats not what we are arguing. We aregunig skills. Jordan was not the same level ball handler. Even phil said that one of the main differences between the two was that kobe uses the dribble more to probe defenses and jordan was more about getting to his spot with one or 2 dribbles and pulling up. Watching them play, kobe is a better ball handler and i cant see how a jordan fan cant at least give that one to kobe. As for left hand, kobe uses his left all hte time. Lean in shots off up and unders. He has even hit a 3 pointer with his left hand back in the day. Jordan himself said that he wished he had a better left and that he almost always tried to finish with his right. 3 point shooting, jordan shot a lower percentage, and thats with him not settling as we both agree kobe does. He rarely took contested 3's. I believe he only barely passed 100 made 3's in a season like 3 times. Kobe passes 100 made 3's just about every year and usually by a wide margin. Post game is about the same. Kobe posts guys all the time. His work with olajuwon only helped. He is always taking guys into the low box. Jordan was great at this too, but kobe actually probably does it more often while jordan was more comfortable with the mid post from 10-15 feet and then shooting his fade away. Im not even sure what you mean by how many times has kobe shot with 2-3 men in his face. He actually does it pretty often.
And again, this "he dominated every minute of every game" talk is just absurd. Im not even gonna waste my time talking about that any more.
I'm surprised that no one said Hakeem Olajuwon. No one will ever show that type of natural post footwork ever again IMO.
Shaq said it best...
"Hakeem has five moves, then four countermoves -- that gives him 20 moves."
The Dream Shake is his trademark, but Hakeem was deadly all over the place. The man damn near made an impact on every facet of the game while he played. He's the only player ever to retire in the top 10 in Blocks, steals, points, and rebounding.
I see a Jordan and Kobe skills debate going here...that's tough lol.
Lets see, Mid-range I'm going to have to give it to Jordan. Especially shooting off the dribble. As far as overall better ball handling, Kobe takes that one, but Jordan is just as good (ask Charles Oakley and John Starks when he was trapped on the baseline by both men only to spin and dunk on Ewing). But his court vision isn't as good as Jordan's. Jordan to me has more basketball skill than Kobe. Defense, Rebounding, courtvison. The only edge Kobe has is that he is the better 3 point shooter.
Steve Nash is the most skilled ever. handle with both hands, cross-over , multi-direction spin,catch and shoot, deep 3, you name a specific area,he is good at it. when talk about pure skill, PGs is the only choice.you can imagine how good a steve nash in jordans body can be.
agree with as far as all around skills larry legend not alot of athletich abilty but damn he was so smart and got more down with less athletich abilty then anyone ever as for the kobe jordan that can be argued and counter argued all day long good mention on the dream too he was a very unquie all around big man
Pete Maravich would get the nod for me. He was flash and fundamentals in one.
Jordan was a great ball handler, but not as creative as Kobe. Kobe is also better at using his left hand and shooting the three-ball. I'd also probably give Kobe the edge at making those shots that are a 10/10 on the level of difficulty scale.
Other than that, I'd give the edge to Jordan at just about everything else. He had a better low/mid post and mid-range game. He was more efficient, and though he took a lot of shots, had better shot selection. Despite Kobe being a great defender, Jordan was better at that end too. He didn't take nearly as many plays off defensively. Tex Winter has been highly critical of Kobe in that regard. Jordan was the better athlete and more explosive. Kobe has small hands, so he isn't able to do certain things with the ball that Jordan could. Jordan was the better closer, especially on the big stage.
And as competitive as Kobe is, Jordan was more competitive. He just had that will to not only dominate, but demoralize his opponents. Jordan was a killer. He'd kill your mother on the basketball court and not have any sympathy.
Kobe is close to Jordan skill wise, but isn't close to being a better player.
And if I had to pick a player for the most skilled, I'd probably go with Hakeem Olajuwon.
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhp606f2vqpqQNZ76v (most skilled, most competitive, and greatest of all time)...
Reading the thread title made Magic Johnson spring to mind immediately but Bird although not an athletic freak like Jordan certainly made the most of his skillset.
Tim Duncan is perhaps the player who has made his actual career contributions count for more than any other NBA player in recent years as although there have been numerous 20/10 players, Tim Duncan has always put up his big games when it mattered and got his 25 points in a close win, grabbed a vital defensive rebound etc.
Would the possitive or negative efficency ratings that form parts of some stats help to show who amongst the players mentioned perhaps contributed most towards winning a game whilst on court.
Just thought I'd chime in the say if we are talking skill then shouldn't efficiency be a big part of how skilled someone is? The only areas I'd give Kobe the edge would be the three point shot and maybe the left hand too; Jordan said he wished he had a better left hand, doesn't mean his left hand was worse than Kobe's just that it was worse than his right, which I think we can agree is pretty damn good.
As far as dribbling is concerned, this is something that has always bugged me when people say Kobe is a better ball-handler and there are a few reason's this isn't true;
- Jordan's first step was so good that he often didn't need to be "creative" because he was effective.
- Jordan dribbled less, doesn't mean he dribbled worse. Kobe could be accused of overdribbling whereas like I said Jordan used the first step better.
Back on topic though, Hakeem or Jordan would have to be my picks. Hakeem's footwork was ridiculous, and the aerial creativity Jordan demonstrated in getting off certain shots, and the regularity with which he did it astound me.
When you take everything into account, size, speed, dribbling, passing, shooting, defense, ability to play multiple positions, I would say Magic is the most skilled player ever. He's a PG who could guard bigmen, and do everything else in between...he has to be the most skilled.
No LeBron in this? LeBron is an amazing physical speciment, amazing athlete. Can pass, score, play defense at all 5 positions for the most part, rebounds very well, and makes his team so much better.
No Julius Erving either?
if we aren't throwing size into the equation it has to be a guard....someone who can shoot/pass/handle......Pistol Pete, Steve Nash come to mind immediately....
I think Magic still deserves some consideration for this list.....Isaiah Thomas.....young Ray Allen.....
Since when does skill only involve offensive ability. It's a skill to have great timing on shot blocking, it's a skill to box out effectively and play post and perimeter defense. It's not all dribbling and passing, and shooting. I think the most skilled big man and perhaps the most skilled basketball player ever is Hakeem Olajuwon, a true student of the game and argueably one of the most complete players ever.
Pete Maravich is the most skilled player with a basketball. He had a short career, so people don't talk about him as much.
defense is more about hustle and toughness and quickness and even physical gifts.....I don't think of it as a skill.....like something you practice on and get better at....
Are you serious midwestbbscout?? What do you think a skill is? Do you think Pistol Pete came out of the womb and knew how to pass and dribble and drop 44 points a game in college?? No, he practiced his ass off to refine his game and although some players are more naturally gifted than others isn't any skill"...like something you practice on and get better at..."
Defense is just as much of a skill as offense, you think Dennis Rodman didn't pride himself on his defensive skill? Mutombo either? Jordan, Bowen, even Battier and Ben Wallace in today's game,...try telling them defense isn't a skill its just something yout practice on and get better at
@Steroid, Pistol Pete was a phenominally talented basketball player, but his short life projected him into infamy. He wasn't a great defender or an outside shooter, but he was deadly with a basketball in his hands going to the hoop. One of the greatest penetrators and creators, yes, but the most skilled basketball player....no.
Without taking size into consideration, do you really thing Olajuwon was a better ball handler, passer and perimeter shooter than a top tier point guard? I agree that he is the most skilled big man of all-time, but certainly not the most skilled all-around.
Ok,we need a evaluation system kind of like espn hollingers', based on shoot,handle,pass,personal defence and rebound tactics .not considering size, speed,vertical jump differences.
I think steve nash will be on top of that list.
he had to practice these things and became a master of them....I know one thing he couldn't play a lick of defense and neither can Steve Nash......I would have to consider Hakeem though for this list.....by far the most skilled big man ever to live no offense to Tim Duncan...