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Who or what do you consider Elite in the NBA?

Windy City Assassin
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Who or what do you consider Elite in the NBA?

Yesterday, I had asked a simple question as to why Raymond Felton cannot be Elite. Quite a few guys gave their valid opinions. Now this leads me to ask...Who or what do you consider Elite from a PG perspective in the NBA?

This is my overall take on the PG position

Elite-DRose CP3 DWill Rondo

Were Elite-Nash Billups Parker Miller*

Not Elite yet-Westbrook Wall Holiday Jennings Curry

Not Elite-Irving Lawson


Tobe Bryant
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Elite

Elite: My definition actually come from a few key components.

  1. Playoff Performance/Big Game Moment: The ability to rise during the moments and lift your team to a level that is nearly impossible.
  2. Leadership: Standing up and taking charge for your team
  3. Deference: Can your teammates defer to you and rely on you to bail them out?
  4. Struggles & Finding ways to impact games other than offense: When your offense isn't on, what other ways can you get your team going?

With that said, I'll present three levels of only a couple of young PGs that come to mind.

  • Average PGs: Mario Chalmers is a good defensive PG. Doesn't have great athleticism as found in most guards, but is just good enough to lead the Heat for now.
  • Above Average PGs: Stephon Curry. A great, young PG. Not quite an all-star yet, but will definitely be there soon enough.
  • All-Star PGs: Russell Westbrook is an athletic guard who leads a team looking to contend for an NBA title in years to come. With questionable decision making, Westbrook is looking to break into that elite mold one day.
  • Elite PGs: Chirs Paul. Numerous all-star appearances, Olympic gold medalist, and a deep playoff run in a year where he was MVP runner-up.
sammybuckeye13
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Westbrook is elite

Westbrook is elite

For_Never_Ever
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Westbrook is an elite

Westbrook is an elite athlete.

mikeyvthedon
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You should still give a better definition!

That was the key. Plus, why just have it as point guards? You threw out the name Joe Johnson as being elite, saying it is because he was signed to a 100 million dollar deal. So you think money is what makes players elite? Is Al Jefferson elite? I don't think so. Is Tyson Chandler elite? He certainly played a key role on an elite team, but I would not label him as such.

I think you have the right idea as far as the PG's you named as Elite or those who "were Elite" (minus Andre Miller, who was good and a winner, but not elite). You still make it incredibly broad though and it really does not define what you feel MAKES THEM elite. I mean, this is a rare chance for you to come up with insight and I hope you actually use it. You obviously spend a lot of time writing peoples names down and such, but why not go beyond buzz words here? What I am asking YOU is:

  • Why are those four players you named elite and what did they do to be classified as such?
  • For the players "Not Elite Yet", how do you see them getting there? Not to mention, WILL they all get there?
  • For the guys who are flar out "Not Elite", do you see them having no chance of being such?

Finally, your original post was entitled "Why Raymond Felton Can't Be Elite?" (Should have moved "can't" in front of Raymond Felton, but to each their own), yet now he is not even listed. Just wondering why the crusade suddenly stopped.

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Elite to me means they are

Elite to me means they are about top 5 in the NBA as a player or in the referred to elite skill. Ex. Ray Allen is an elite shooter.

Windy City Assassin
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Mikey V

I take it you aint get the memo earlier... Lemme refresh you Smart Ass! Never seems to fail that you will hop on any post just to call me out. Now I'm telling you d*ck riding is not a form of transportation by all means if you're not a female. HOP OFF!

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Wouldn't call Rondo elite yet

Wouldn't call Rondo elite yet

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Wow that was a pretty quick

Wow that was a pretty quick negative reaction to "Westbrook isn't elite?"

Westbrook had the 8th highest PER OVERALL last year (1 spot behind Durant, 1 ahead of Rose), not to mention he's really improved in each of his first three seasons and is a top-notch defender.

How can you say that someone who made All-NBA 2nd Team at age 22 is not elite? I would really like to see a more convincing argument against this.

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Elite to me is when your

Elite to me is when your considered not just one of the best at your position, but one of the best overall players. Westbrook is one of te best at his postion, but he is not considered one of the top overall players in the league, CP3 is tho, and that is where the line of "elite" is drawn in.

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Currently waiting on a 2hr

Currently waiting on a 2hr delay reply which states the true meaning of d*ck riding & how useless I am to all posters on the forum, who happens to come across my threads. We all know your are a college graduate from a major school whooptedoo! WTF cares. I for 1 don't! So you don't have to try & put on for me with those long drawn out paragraphs you tend to give me on why I am wrong or you disagree on EVERYTHING I have to say.

1 thing about it is .net will be here long after you and I. I've been a reader since 2001, so what makes you think I'm going to kill myself off now.

mikeyvthedon
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Oy vey

Why do you take things as insults that are meant to maybe lead to debate and open your mind? I challenge you to do something, and rather than accept it, you come back with catch phrases and buzz words. Seeing that you flat out jacked my question to you, without any recourse, than I felt I had every reason to call you out.

Well, you can take it is as an insult, or use it as something else and step your game up as a poster. Or you can take some other rappers lyrics and try to tell me off. Believe me man, I am not alone in being someone who wants you to become a better poster and more of a part of the discussion rather than just doing the same old same old. I just call it as I see it, if you take it as disrespect rather than as a way to see things differently, so be it. Wish someone could back me up here that those questions I asked are definitely legitimate.

You have a short memory, as well, I see. I for one was just trying to get you to step things up and open your mind. When people flipped out on you for writing that post about "The Point Issue" to Aran, I was the one who said I in fact did not want you to leave, but I wanted you to get the message. You just take everything personally and you seem to avoid peoples questions for you as being disrespect. I throw in a few jokes, maybe they were harsh, but I think my questions were 100% legit.

For_Never_Ever
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Westbrook

Go to the threads on westbrook, how hes been forcing the issue, turning the ball over, not passing, charging more than twice in a game I have noticed.

surve
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Westbrook

I believe that Westbrook is elite. At the very worst he is borderline elite.

I believe a player to be elite for several reasons, but in Westbrook's case I will say.....

  • top 2 players on a team (2nd best)
  • top 15 player in the league (ALL NBA 2nd Team)
  • team would have the same success ONLY with another elite/pre-elite level player (who could you get thats not on that level)
  • can carry a team when needed but still win games (proved that when KD went down last year)
  • feared as a game changer (game changing athleticism, virtually unstoppable when going to the hole)

with that being said...how an All NBA 2nd team performer can not be considered elite is beyond me.

Is Westbrook flawed? Terribly. His strengths still far outweigh his flaws, if they didnt, the Thunders would not be a good team with him at the helm.

Westbrook is like Rodman and Ben Wallace to me. Both of whom I consider to be elite, but flawed/imbalanced players. Rodman and Wallace could both dominate a game with defense and rebounding. Russell does it with uncanny length and athleticism. Once Russ learns the game and his role better, he can be just as sucessful as those guys and win a title.

surve
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I think we know who the elite

I think we know who the elite PG's are. But just so we are clear....CP3, DWILL, DROSE, Rondo.

I would like to mention the pre-elites or borderline elites. These are players who are on their way if their teams become successful.

Jrue Holiday

Ty Lawson

Stephen Curry

Next is elite level talent. these guys WILL be elite once their teams start winning but are a ways from that circumstance.

John Wall

Kyrie Irving

Brandon Jennings

Lastly, there are guys that have elite level talent but have not been designated as one of the top 2 players on their respective teams.

Jeff Teague

Raymond Felton

There are also a lot of really good PG's who will be very good or are very good currently but I dont believe was ever on or will be an elite level player. (All Star or just below calibur)

Andre Miller

Devin Harris

Kemba Walker

Ricky Rubio

Jimmer Fredette

Brandon Knight (if you consider him a PG)

IndianaBasketball
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I take it you aint get the

I take it you aint get the memo earlier... Lemme refresh you Smart Ass! Never seems to fail that you will hop on any post just to call me out. Now I'm telling you d*ck riding is not a form of transportation by all means if you're not a female. HOP OFF!\

Lmfao... Wow.

The Scare Crow ...
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I smell an Internet brawl brewing>>>

Memphis Tyga Vs. MikeyV...place your bets everyone...

Tale of the Tape

Memphis Tyga is armed with a die hard love affair for any scoring Guard(And Marvin Williams) and Hawesome one liners like " Now I'm telling you d*ck riding is not a form of transportation by all means if you're not a female. HOP OFF! "...

MikeyVDaDon has put countless draftnet users to sleep with Textbook lenght posts, and has made many feel completely stupid when lured into a debate...He has mastered the Rope a Dope strategy and has the support of many users and Mods alike, hell the guy has Aran on speed dial(we can pretty much tell this guy is connected by his user name and "Goons" at your front door)...Lets not forget his Oregon legion of ducks that quack attack any would be challenger...

I believe in rooting for Underdogs, but Memphis Tyga is Seabisket and Tiny Tim rolled into one package...

mikeyvthedon
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Those were my sentiments exactly

I have no idea what "d!ck riding" is, but people here appear to mean it is when someone is confrontational towards someone's general being. I only knew the phrase being used as liking someone to an incredible extent, but apparently the meaning has changed.

Memphis, I call you out because I think you could give more than you tend to. I do not think I am alone. It is up to you whether you take offense or actually put more effort and thought into things. Just know I appreciate people put thought and effort into things more than being offended every time someone calls them out on things that might actually might not make complete sense.

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^^^ Like Dajuan Wagner making a come back

Or Marvin Williams turning into a 20 and 10 player if ever traded from Atlanta...

I like Memphis's effort, he's like the Mark Madsen of the site, and I say that In the most loving way, I swear...

But I agree with you Mikey that he does need to take a half a second longer thinking before posting some of the stuff he post...

What Mikey is trying to get across to Memphis is that someone who contributes as much as you do should be a little more aware of what they are posting...

This could have been a truly great thread filled with some interesting debates...but without much thought put behind the thread it can fizzle out really quick...I always find myself loving half of what Memphis is trying to attempt and hating the other half that always feels thrown together and unoriginal or Piontless(yes that was an IGN meme)

I would love to see Memphis become a better all around poster(see I'm just like you Tyga) I want the underachiever to succeed too...

I by no means am a Dick Rider, Hater or Fan boy...I'm just a Crow, who calls it how he see's it...And you my homie need to Improve your game...Much like we all do, no one is Perfect by any means...I had to be defeated by the Don to step up my game and I believe I've vastly improved because of the same attention he's given to you...

mikeyvthedon
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You were not defeated by me

You and I just both made each other better. I truly feel that posters on this site have each others backs and want to make each other better, discover the game further and make this board as knowledgeable as possible on the game. Thanks for having my back Scarecrow. Memphis, not mad at you, just hoping you see the light rather than think it is all darkness.

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mikey lets try to bring this thread back on topic

Do you think Jrue Holiday, Brandon Jennings and Steph Curry can become ELITE...

I love Holiday, u already know that, I think he can become a top 5 Pg very soon...He has it all IMO and he is still very young...if and when they ever get a true Pick and Roll Pf he'll take off...

Jennings is a very hard player to peg, I like Jennings as much as anyone...I think he's more of a scorer than a pure PG but he's not a bad passer and was very willing to defer in his first few seasons, I really think he'll blow up if he finds a more up tempo team with athletes on the wings...He has had some of the slowest team mates in the League...Imagine the guy with Demar Derezon or Andre Iguadola on the wing with an athlete like Josh Smith to throw an alley oop to...

Curry has elite offensive ability IMO, he's got a terrific jumper and vastly improve his Pg skills since entering the NBA, but I dont think he can play 82 games a year for the next 10 seasons...He's had a bad string of ankle injuries and I'm reminded of a guy like Grant Hill having a few bad ankle injuries and that holding back his carrer for years, I see the same thing happening to Curry and that'll be very sad because he has the tools to become a Steve Nash like Point Guard in The league...

Lawson and Felton look like solid as can be Pg's for years to come but Not quite at the Elite stage...

Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo ARE Elite Pg's right now despite a few posters thinking other wise...

John Wall is NOT an Elite Pg right now despite many posters opinions...

Irving, Walker and my favorite Brandon Knight all look like they can become fringe Elite Pg's in their career's( I happen to like Knight's shooting and size more than Irving and Walker at the moment)

Jimmer Freddete looks like a R.O.Y candidate, although I think he'll be more of a 6th man down the road, I said the same thing about Steph Curry when he entered the draft...With Evans and Thorton jacking up a ton of shots he'll need to become a better passer to max out the teams potential...

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@grizz32 I'd say Rondo is

@grizz32

I'd say Rondo is definitely elite... Especially if he keeps his current play up. He's the best player on the Celtics right now...

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Moving ahead! In other great

Moving ahead! In other great .net news excellent 411 Surve!

"Lastly, there are guys that have elite level talent but have not been designated as one of the top 2 players on their respective teams.

Jeff Teague

Raymond Felton"

Way to find a class for Felton, but I have a question that is killing me to know why do you and everyone put Irving on a pedestal?

BTW I would give Knight a pass on the PG classification as well.

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Memphis

I clearly think Knight is Better than Irving and Walker...but it's all about preference at this point...some people like Jennings and Curry over Holiday and Lawson(I don't)...Some people like Rose and Westbrook more than CP3 and Deron Williams(I again don't)...Some people dont think Rondo is a top 5 Pg...some people still believe Steve Nash and Tony Parker are top 10 Pg's and rank John Wall very low on their list of Pg's in the NBA...

I ask this question...Is John Wall better than(Blank Pg) RIGHT NOW ???

IS HE BETTER THAN ???

Chris Paul

Deron Williams

Derrick Rose

Rajon Rondo

Jrue Holiday

Stephan Curry

Brandon Jennings

Tywon Lawson

Raymond Felton

Steve Nash

Mike Conley Jr.

Tony Parker

Jason Kidd

Kyle Lowry

Darren Collison

Jameer Nelson

Devin Harris

Irving, Knight, Walker or Freddete...

AND WHY IS HE BETTER IN ANY OF YOUR OPINIONS...???

mikeyvthedon
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@ Scarecrow

I really don't know. As I said, I feel that their are only 10 players I would deem as elite in the league. They all seem like legit multiple time All-Stars, that is definitely possible, but I do not know if I would call them "elite". They certainly have had stellar young careers, but if I were to see any PG becoming elite, it would be John Wall in the next year or two.

I think that Kyrie Irving has the potential to be the best player in this years draft, but as I wrote in my "Drafting Franchise Players" post, I do not feel that every draft necessarily has elite players. The 2011 Draft looks to be one of those drafts. Still think that Kyrie Irving was the best player in that draft, not going to count him out after struggling his first game. His mental game is why I personally put him ahead of every PG in that class. Knight is a good scorer, but Irving is more efficient and has better court vision. That is why I put him in a class above the other PG's from his draft.

See, I will say this once again, what is your definition of "elite"? That is something I think we have to know to place people in that category. If "elite" is play-off and all-league accomplishments, than obviously you include Westbrook and Rondo, but I do not know if they have a similar ability to carry a team that Derrick Rose, Chris Paul and Deron Williams have.

Personally, I think "elite" only belongs to a very select few players. The NBA is full of amazing players and guys who play at a very high level. But, the elite have the ability to perform at a high enough level to make those around them excel and to raise the ability of their teammates. I think there are only 10 players in the league I see as "elite": LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony and Dirk Nowitzki (in no particular order).

I can see two players joining that group in John Wall and Blake Griffin. The next level of All-Star level players might be slightly near this level, but I feel like these guys have distinguished himself from the pack. The key is, what makes someone elite? It is being in the top 5 at your position? If so, than I could see Curry, Holiday or Jennings maybe getting to that level.

But, I feel they will need a lot more help to do so than Paul, D-Will and Rose, or as good as I see a guy like John Wall becoming. PG is a pretty stacked position right now and there are certainly players fairly close to each other. I still would like a better definition of who is elite, what the next level is and the level after that. Otherwise, there is little substance into what we are arguing over as far as who is at what level.

Also, I just saw your newest post and most of what people see in John Wall is speculation. But, he has the ability and athleticism to be an incredibly elite player. His vision is definitely evident and he had a pretty awesome rookie year on a weak @ss team. Most of why people rate Wall so highly is based on potential as opposed to current ability, but you are asking how good certain players can become. So, why can't Wall become even better than those guys? People develop and Wall looks like his might be pretty rapid.

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Wall is Elite when it comes

Wall is Elite when it comes to athletic ability, but as stated above in an earlier post...Will be elite once his team starts winning.

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wall should become elite

wall should become elite eventually, but its not team wins holding him back. He just flat out aint there. I think some of you guys throw elite around too easily.

surve
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@scarecrow

I would put Wall right above Mike Conley Jr, assuming your list is in order of 1st to last. Parker goes ahead of Conley though.

I look at it from this perspective. What would the results be if Wall traded places with these players?

Wall fits in most places, Parker still seems like a better fit in San Antonio though.

All the players...Conley and below, their teams would be better with Wall, while the Wizards would be the same or not as good.

Wall only has a few great things he does right now and has to improve on some things, when he does, he will pass most of those players above Conley. He is either not as efficient at running a team or as solid overall as the ones above Conley. I would say he is really close to Felton right now on that list if not slightly better at this point, but quickly rising.

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@Indiana

I agree with you as far as Rondo being elite. I will go as far to say he has been the Celts best player for a couple of years now. I really think that because Rondo isnt a scorer or shooter like the other elites, somehow his dominance is taken for granted. When he went on that triple-double spree, he was damn near unstoppable. I mean 10 pts, 10 rbs, and 24 asts...are you kidding??? Look at how much offense he contributed to and that aint including his defense. Oh....he's damn sure elite in my book. It wasnt just the fact that he was getting triple doubles, but that teams really had no answer for a guy who really cant even score. He was dominating. Flat out.

@memphis

As far as putting Irving on a pedestal, its just a hunch. I just think he has some intangibles to his game. He is not a Wall-type talent. I love his IQ and off the dribble he can get anywhere he wants. I just think he is one of those guys who is a smart player and can figure out how to win despite not being physically imposing or athletically superior to his opponents.

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"As far as putting Irving on

"As far as putting Irving on a pedestal, its just a hunch. I just think he has some intangibles to his game. He is not a Wall-type talent. I love his IQ and off the dribble he can get anywhere he wants. I just think he is one of those guys who is a smart player and can figure out how to win despite not being physically imposing or athletically superior to his opponents."

I really don't know when it comes to this guy, I don't see it at all with him. If you're going to put 1 on a pedestal, I would reason with Rubio over Irving, for the simple fact that he had his fair share, of matchups with Elite NBA guys at 17 years of age in FIBA ball. Rubio has proved just as much as Kyrie, without even stepping a foot on U.S. turf.

Now do you agree that Rubio is more deserving of the status, you say Irving has?

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No

It is not just about who you have played, it is about how you have played. That is not an incredibly strong argument whatsoever. We know that Rubio played against great competition at a young age, he is also a fantastic passer and ball handler. But, Irving is a much better shooter and I believe his scoring acumen and efficiency will definitely be beyond Rubio. Irving is better at changing speeds and again, I like the head on his shoulders. Ricky has "accomplished more" by playing pro and in the public eye, but if he were to play in college, would he necessarily have been as efficient as Kyrie Irving was? Jury is out.

Still, the reason people have a high opinion of Kyrie Irving is that in the few games he actually played, he showed incredible court awareness and efficiency. Even in the game that Duke lost in the NCAA tournament, the kid was a killer. If he would have stayed healthy, he more than likely would have been in the discussion for being an All-American and probably would have won conference freshman of the year over Harrison Barnes. He shot poorly from the field in his first NBA game, but he has definite flashes and still finished with 7 assists to only 1 turnover.

Rubio shot 22.4% from international three point range (22 feet) while Kyrie shot 46% from NCAA three (20'9, scoring 7 more baskets in 10 fewer attempts). Kyrie just appears to many that he may be a possibly better player in the long run. You are entitled to your opinion, but the competition level argument is not overly convincing. It would be more convincing if Ricky seemed to evolve in his last few years in Euroleague and ACB, but he kind of seemed to struggling shooting and scoring the ball. He was the starting PG on a solid team, but who is to say Kyrie would not have started and done well if he took the opportunity to play professionally in Europe? I am sure Ricky would do well against NCAA comp on the contrary, but I believe that Irving is the more complete player. Rubio does a few things better than Irving, but on the whole, I think Irving looks like the better PG prospect for his overall efficiency.

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good points

good points Mikey.

guys...please dont get mad when I say this....but Rubio reminds me a lot like Pistol Pete. He does have great court vision, but I think people may be overating him because he is an exciting player. Because Rubio is able to do some things that we havent seen some others do in some time, will that translate into winning? It didnt for Pete. Its no secret that I have not been very high on Rubio. Some people are not high on Kanter. Both I think have been pretty much evaluated on their pre-NBA careers....and I just think we need to see more. Sometimes it comes down to more than just skills, it comes down to being confident in what you are able to do. I think Irving does a lot of different things well and is extremely confident in those things.

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While many rave about

While many rave about Irving's wonderful court vision, I can bring up 1 whose vision is just as good, who happens to be Shaun Livingston. I already know the arguement, that will be brought up is that the dude is 7ft tall. Shaun is a guy who I can honestly say, would have been on the same pedestal as all the guys listed above, if it weren't due to a career threating injury. Since then he has took a backslide to every guy who has come in.

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I dont disagree with you

I dont disagree with you about Livingston, and Kyrie may be a bust, I dont know. Just guessing though, I think Kyrie will reach All-Star level. Maybe not elite level, but I dont think Rubio will be elite either.

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Don't get me wrong at all, I

Don't get me wrong at all, I am not calling Kyrie a bust or future bust. I just don't see or expect, what everyone else does out of him, of being on an Elite level. He will be considered a bust by everyone else, for not meeting those expectations set upon him. I refuse to call him a bust, because again I have no high expectations for him whatsoever.

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I never have considered Rondo

I never have considered Rondo an elite point guard, despite being a winner and very good in my opinion. That being said, I see some major improvements in his shot this season. Compared seasons past where his free throw percentage has just been completely awful out of the gate and he slowly raised it throughout the season, he's already shooting 70% on 23 attemtps ( not just 7-10 or something that could be attributed to a hot game) and more importantly he looks more confident in his shot. Now 70% isn't that high for an NBA guard ( myself as a high school power forward shot 68%) but I think what seperates very good players from elite players is improvement on their games once they reach a certain level.

The fact that I can see improvements in his game, paired with his high bball IQ makes me think he will make the jump to an elite NBA point guard this or next season. 70% isn't great, but it's an improvement and the last 2 years he's started around 50 and improved. If he can get to 73-74% by the end of the year, then that is average and no longer a blairing weakness in his game. The 3 point shot is next, but I do see he put in the work. We all saw what an outside shot did to Derrick Rose's game and he wasn't nearly the defender or distributer as Rondo to begin with. IF, and a big if, his shot continues to improve he could be the best point guard in the league.

I think Rondo is a "Not Yet" because I do think he will reach that.

Guys like Jennings, and Holiday have showed they can be very good, but I think you have to be very good before you can envision a player as a potentially elite player.

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"Guys like Jennings, and

"Guys like Jennings, and Holiday have showed they can be very good, but I think you have to be very good before you can envision a player as a potentially elite player."

Agreed with that statement, which leads me to say...It's all on who "you" perceive as Elite, because we all can make arguements day in and day out. 1 may say Stevie Franchi$e was not Elite, then you may have 1 to say Baron Davis was over him.

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Yeah, it's all subjective.

Yeah, it's all subjective. There are maybe 3 or 4 players in the league at any point that everyone agree with, but after that there are a lot of conflicting opinions. That is what makes forums like this fun to debate on.

I'm also not that big on Jenning's game, he has battled injuries, but I feel he's also grown very slowly, if at all since his rookie season. He still has the title of the guy who dropped 55 his rookie year and lead the Bucks to the playoffs, but what has he done since? Everytime I watch a Bucks game I'm impressed by his quickness and frustrated by his shot selection. I feel he's going to end up being a starting caliber point guard for many years, but not a guy who makes any All-Star teams. This will conflict a lot of others opinion, but I only view Jennings as an above average point guard, because he is solid starter, but the only way I see him on an All-Star team is if he DRASTICALLY improves his shot selection ( I few a chuck or terrible shot as a TO even if it doesn't go down in the stat book that way) or the East's top point guards move to the Western Conference.

That being said, he's still shooting a low percentage this year, but at least it's over 40% and he's taken very good care of the ball. Like I mentioned in my post on Rondo, it's all about improvement once you reach a certain level of success, and we'll see if Jennings can keep it up, that being said Charlotte and Minne aren't exactly the best teams to judge improvement against.

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Prime example being Tyreke

Prime example being Tyreke Evans now, I absolutely love everything about him as a PG. This is a guy who has tons & tons of potential to be a great PG, but for every positive in his game, I can point out a negative to why he will not be Elite, for years to come & that's if he works on those negatives.

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I don't see how Rondo isn't

I don't see how Rondo isn't an elite PG. He's been on a killing spree for the past 2 years. He is arguably the best passer in basketball and he's also arguably the best slasher from the PG spot. And he plays arguably the best defense from the PG spot. He takes care of the ball. He's a vocal leader. He can't shoot really, and he doesn't look to score as much as most other guards (he has shown that he can score if he needs to though), but those are his main weaknesses. But even though he's not a great shooter or a high level scorer in terms of average, he's still extremely efficient and his slashing ability allows him to get to the rim despite teams sagging way off of him. He's probably only behind CP3, DRose, and Deron Williams. He's better than every other PG though. He's definitely an elite PG to me. He routinely takes over games.

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I think Rondo is very close,

I think Rondo is very close, but to have a point guard who is such a poor FT shooter just seems like a blairing weakness in his game. I think he does a lot of things at an elite level, but you really need your best ball handler to be able to put a game away on the line.

Don't get me wrong I really like Rondo's game, but he's gotta improve that before I, personally can put him there. Like I said earlier, if he can just improve his FT shooting to 75% and his 3 point shooting to the point where you have to respect his shot when he's 25 feet from the basket, he would be the best point guard in the league.

I see him as a guy who is potentially unstoppable with a few improvements, maybe I'm harder on him because I view him that way, but I still don't see him as elite yet. If he keeps up what he did over the first 2 games all season ( obviously not dropping 26 ppg, thats for sure coming down ) but his improvements on his shot, then I'd gladly put him there.

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MikeyVtheDon I over exaggerated on stats to make a point

mess.eee The guy will be a perenial 20PPG 10APG, joining very small company (CP3 and DWill)

sheltwon3 I think Wall should at leave put up Chris Paul type numbers because he is a willing passer and he has a lot of guys to pass to that can finish. Can you imagine if McGee actually gets it basketball wise. He could catch tons of lob like Tyson Chandler and block shots like Dalembert. Also Blatche should be in better shape. Also another year of experience for Jordan Crawford.

The8thDeadlySin That being said, I think Wall fits in with the Williams/Paul group. He does both, score and pass, well enough to get 20 points and 10 assist.. He isnt quite the scorer Rose is and he doesnt avoid shots like Rondo. However, he isnt the passer that Steve Nash is.. He is a nice even mesh between the 2 types of PGs, like Williams/Paul are..

I think he has a huge year.. Only thing holding him back is his team..

mess.eee 20-10-5 is very much possible this season, and I also see the Wizards being a playoff team this season (could climb as high as the #6 seed in the East). They are loaded with talent, and I like what Vasely, Singleton, and McGee will bring defensively, long and athletic.

Uncle Bucksh0t 20.5ppg 4.6rpg 8.8ast 1.7stl .40blk 45%fg 77%ft.....I'm sure his jump shooting will be better. The sky is definitely the limit for this dude. He seems like he has a great work ethic so he should be much improved all around this year. I think he can crack the top 5 for PG's by the end of this year.....end of year rankings for PG's;

1. Rose 2. Paul 3. Deron 4. Westbrook 5. Wall

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Meant for surve not Mikeyvthedon my bad.

That is to surve not Mikeyvthedon mistake before.

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I see everyone really loves

I see everyone really loves Kyrie by the negative feedback I am receiving. Please!!!! someone anyone give me a list of 10 Star qualities he has that show he will be on the level of the Top 4... If you are not aware of what Elite is again, just channel your inner thought of DRose CP3 DWill Rondo.

Again...."Don't get me wrong at all, I am not calling Kyrie a bust or future bust. I just don't see or expect, what everyone else does out of him, of being on an Elite level. He will be considered a bust by everyone else, for not meeting those expectations set upon him. I refuse to call him a bust, because again I have no high expectations for him whatsoever."

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NBA's current elite PG's:

NBA's current elite PG's: Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose

On the Verge: Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker

Were once elite: Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups

Young, Good but not elite...yet: Stephen Curry, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Tyreke Evans

Good, but not sure if they'll ever be considered elite: Raymond Felton, Andre Miller, Devin Harris, Jose Calderon, Kyle Lowry, DJ Augustin

Too Young to Tell: Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker, Brandon Knight, Darren Collison, Jeff Teague

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+1

Like your breakdown

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What are 10 star qualities anyway?

I mean, where are you getting that number from? Tell me 10 star qualities that Brandon Jennings, Raymond Felton or Ricky Rubio have over Irving? I do not think that people give you negative feedback over your opinion, it is probably because they do not find your reasons to be overly convincing.

Plus, people are not necessarily saying he is going to be elite. Just that he could potential be a high level player and an All-Star. You are the one who is saying he is not going to be elite and you have no expectations of him. Just because people disagree with you, it does not mean they think he is going to be an elite point guard. It just means they do not agree with your assessment or your expectations for him, which you seem to put as being a mediocre player.

If you do not see him as a mediocre player, than what else are people supposed to think when you say "I have no high expectations for him whatsoever". That is Memphanese (a language I believe you speak and I am trying to translate. It is a joke, that I am sure you will not find funny) for "he is not going to be that good". If you consider some of the players to be better than him, even seemingly throwing Rubio into the discussion and people see Irving as being better than some of those players, than that means they disagree with where you rank him or do not think your argument against Irving is very strong. Just giving my best guess as to why you are getting "negative feedback". It is usually called, "a difference in opinion", but take it how you will.

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BTW Memphanese = CUTE! I'll

BTW Memphanese = CUTE! I'll keep that in the bammer for when I want to name my daughter (No sarcasm) straight face------> o_O

on Jennings

To date I'm not high on Jennings, like I was coming out of HS. He has NO Star PG qualities IMO since he took a trip overseas.

combined posts

"I miss the Yung Buck from his Oak Hill days where he would drop over 10 assist per game. I understand he scores more than he passes, because he has to. I just wish he would go back to that pass first PG mentality he had. He is not a player who SHOULD be your #1 option, because he does all the little things well as a facilitator, especially if he has a true #1 go to guy. Redd was the #1 option for that Bucks team, but ever since his career been going downhill with injuries, Jennings was given the green light from Day 1 to chuck it 10000 times. Just get the key pieces to surround him, for him to get in the flow of things, to be that FACILITATOR he was known for being coming out of HS. This is a guy who loves to pass first, but with the lack of options he has no choice but to chuck it. Give him a legitimate NBA Superstar on his team that's a #1 option & watch how the PPG go down & the APG go up. If he wanted, he could be an ELITE passer in the NBA. Not 1 offseason clip of BJ I have seen him make an oustanding pass, HELL I have not seen him pass the ball at all in any clip.......Sad to say but "we" have been accustomed to the "NEW" BJ......IMO he has a lot of work to do on the distribution side is he wants to be considered that ELITE type of PG that we know he can be." http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/brandon-jennings-should-pass-more-or-keep-scoring

on Felton

I never said he was Elite, I was asking a question to why he is not Elite, which should have been re-worded "Why Can't Raymond Felton Be Elite?"

on Rubio

Not saying he is Elite or will be I'm just being difficult as usual trying to make a case to why he is not on the same pedestal as Irving, when he has not proved a thing either.

on Irving

Not mad at all. I still to this day believe Knight, will be a better player although he will be used off the ball.

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Your Brandon Jennings assessment

His junior year, he passed for double digit assists. His senior year, he averaged 32.7 ppg (most in program history), 7.4 apg and 5.1 rpg. So, going to Europe did nothing to change the fact that he can score. Not to mention, Milwaukee does not exactly have a plethora of people to get assists from. He scored 55 points in a game though, the kid is streaky, but he can score. Also, now that they have S-Jax, that may take some of the burden off.

Also, I still want to know what 10 star qualities would be? Is that on a scale out of 20? It just boggles the mind as to what you wanted by asking that question. Not trying to rip on you, but if you could name me 10 star qualities that Kyrie Irving does not possess, I might be impressed. Granted, I say might, because I think you would have to be pretty creative to come up with 10 of those qualities in the first place.

Plus, I never said you said that any of those guys were elite. Just that you were basically putting them in a category around or above Irving, and I really wanted to hear your idea of 10 star qualities. Not to mention the 20 it must take to be at the level of a Chris Paul, Derrick Rose and Deron Williams. Why not just rate PG's and say what level everyone is at. You do not even have to use the word elite. Just an activity of critical thinking that might cause more interesting discussion than posing the original question.

Finally: I was serious about the DaJuan Wagner thing. Do you know where he was playing? Did you see him? Is their concrete evidence to you disproving my "smart @ss" statement, or did you just hear something through the grape vine and were lashing out at someone who wanted you to make sure you do some research before you post something as a statement of fact? If you think I am picking on you, I would do this to anyone who had very little fact or resource on something they posted as actually happening.

I feel if it were a joke, it was a mean joke. I understand you got some faulty information, but maybe it will teach you to think before posting something like that again. If you indeed know for a fact he was playing overseas recently, than I apologize. But, I found nothing and you gave me nothing, so I am just stuck on articles detailing his not playing professionally anymore.

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