Does the rating system?
Now I just looked at Siva's ratings(I am no fan of him BTW) but how is his athleticism and quickness the same as Trey Burkes??? Come on now, Siva was easily the faster,quicker player and more athletic than Burke when they played against each other!!!! And Siva is the better athlete overall period.
Siva is not better than Burke, but I find many many flaws in the rating system.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I read it. Definitely a nine for athleticism, and probably a 9 for quickness and leadership as well.
The ratings system is pretty weird really and almost always questionable. 6 is almost the lowest possible grade you can get, the only one lower that I found was Austin Daye's strength ranked as a 5. Why rank skills on a scale of ten when the minimum is a 5?
Then last year Leonard's size, who was 7'1 with a 7'3 wingspan was ranked as a 9 while the 7' tall 7'2 wingspan Fab Melo had a 10 size ranking. What exactly does size show then? Fab Melo is a bit thicker, but in my mind that's the "strength" rating.
I actually gave Peyton a 9 in both, Aran has the final say and I am not overly upset that he decided to go with 8 instead. You could have just called me out though, lol. Either way, it is what it is, you do not have to agree with it and you certainly can have your own opinion. The bottom line is, Trey Burke is better at getting to the basket and he is probably not exponentially lower than anyone else.
What I have never seen anyone do is give their own marks based on the NBADraft.net ratings, or tend to see that few and far between. When I first rated Peyton, it was hard for me to not overrate him in certain categories. I ended up giving him really high ratings in athleticism, intangibles, quickness and leadership, to the point of him I believe being an 88 or so. Still, is Peyton going to be drafted? Also, is he really that much quicker and more explosive than Burke?
In a basketball sense, if he is, than he was certainly never able to use it to his full potential. I always thought Peyton could blow up, never really did. He had a solid senior season on a balanced team, was a definite leader, just was also wildly inconsistent. Either way, it is hard to use the rating system while still having a realistic draft standing. Especially when it is rated 1-10, or 5-10 or whatever.
I know Prince James had his "alternative", just saw no example of how this system was more accurate and also not in danger of over/underrating players. It also tended to overlap, just like Anton pointed out with Strength maybe overlapping with Size. My big thing was wanting to give Andre Drummond at least an 8 in rebounding, more than likely a 9. Well, didn't happen, was not to upset and understood that he really lacked fundamentals in that area at the college level.
While I know people tended to like Prince James' post, I have not really seen much evidence that it is all that different from the current system in final result. You kind of see trends in where prospects are graded in where they are expected to be drafted or how the site feels about their overall ability. So, say what you will about Peyton Siva, Trey Burke certainly does not to seem all that different of a class of athlete when it comes to using said ability on the court. Plus, our rating system is not ultimately going to be the difference into whether Peyton Siva makes the league or not. Just a general gauge. If you have a better one or want to say how you would rank this years draft prospects, would be glad to see it. Doubt we are going to change this current system and if we did, we are not going to add close to as many categories as the one that was suggested by Prince James.
Burke is better at getting to the rim...True, But that has more to do with Burke knowing how to play at different speeds and having a good handle.
But far as raw speed,quickness and athleticism goes, Siva beats Burke out, if Burke is an 8, Siva is a 9
But I could go on and on, as I just checked Eric Bledsoe's Athleticism and Quickness and it was rated as a 9 and he's a better athlete than Siva, and Burke's strength is an 8, Bledsoe's strength was an 8 as well and he was alot stronger than Burke in college but it's many flaws, I just wanted to point it out, because sometimes I don't understand it.
has a 4 for athleticism I'm pretty sure lol. But i agree, Wiggins and Parker have the same shooting rating at 8. I think its clear that Parker is a much better shooter.
It is like when ESPN does the top 500 players from 1-10. If LeBron is not a 10, who is? If you feel no player is perfect and your highest rank is a 9, does that mean that the other players are 8's? It is just a general gauge as to who they are as an overall player. If you are going to rate Trey Burke as a NBA level athlete, do you rate him a 7? I would find that difficult to do, could see it, just feel an 8 is viable.
Now, is Siva a 9 by the same standard? I think he is a better athlete and faster than Trey Burke, I also totally know that Trey is better at changing speeds and such. However, is that not also than part of what would go into either athleticism or quickness? It is just a gauge and if you actually have a way you feel is better, than go ahead. Just hard to use the "." system (ie. 8.1, 8.2, 8.3.....etc) or use to many categories.
The system may not be perfect (what system is?), just is meant to give someone a look into what the guy does by NBA standards. If the guy can jump higher or run faster, that might make them a better athlete in your eyes. It all comes down to how you use this to make you a better player. Peyton never was able to use his 40 inch vert or quickness to really turn into the offensive threat that garnered some calling him a potential Kemba Walker. In the end, Burke's rating is in the lottery and Siva is in the unsure whether he is drafted space. If you feel different, by all means make some ratings amongst this years PG crop or suggest a different system to make sure Eric Bledsoe, Peyton Siva and Trey Burke are put in their rightful athletic spaces.
I just feel maybe he should let us know what he goes by when he rates them.
Siva(5'10) never lived up to what he was supposed to be, but he displayed his athleticism numerous of times to show he is a better athlete than Burke(6'0):
(360 between the legs dunk)
As I said Burke is the better and smarter player, but just as far as raw speed,quicks and jumping goes Siva should be rated higher than Burke, because as you say would Siva be rated as the same standard and I feel yes, because in all actuality the only reason Siva is still being talked about is because he's a great athlete on any level(minus strength..maybe)
If Siva was 5'10 without his jets and hops we wouldn't even be discussing him getting a shot in the pro's his athleticism is keeping that door open.
Testing out as an athlete has nothing to do with your IQ, Burke obviously is the smarter player, but Siva is the better athlete.
Look at CP3 and Eric Bledsoe, Bledsoe is 2x the athlete Paul is, but who is the better player? Who would a GM take first if they were in the same draft class?
Don't confuse this as me saying Siva should get drafted ahead of Burke or even drafted period, as I feel Siva isn't NBA material, but far as his athleticism goes, from running, jumping, and quickness he beats Burke.
People tend to measure it by ability to make plays above the rim or straight line speed. I get where you are coming from, yet see no real solution to this proposed problem. I wanted to rate him a 9, I can see why he could be viewed as closer to Burke than to Eric Bledsoe (who, might I add, I do not think was much stronger than Trey Burke at a similar stage).
When people state how much more athletic Bledsoe is than Chris Paul, I just do not think their is an exponential difference. Maybe in combine numbers, just not in how they use it in basketball terms. Stop and start speed is athleticism, I believe, as is hand-eye coordination. It is all in how one defines it, yet the term itself is quite broad.
So, can see why you say Siva is more athletic, yet still see no real solution to your issue with the rankings. Do not really know what to tell you, just think that the final ranking tries to give some idea of where they could be taken. This is probably the reason for the ranking change. I think I had Siva actually rated higher than Dedmon in terms of final ranking, though I believe Dedmon due to his size has more of a chance of being drafted. Siva is a better run-jump athlete, yet I believe their are factors of athleticism that Burke does possess that lessens the divide.
I do believe Bledsoe was much stronger than Burke, you can just look at them and tell Bledsoe is much more powerful than Burke who is really around 180-185(Not 190) While Bledsoe was 195 and built like a RB, that's just my take.
I see what you're saying and I think we both have valid points, but if 10 scouts walked into the gym and watched Paul and Bledsoe play ball for 20 mins, I guarantee 9/10 of the scouts would walk away as Bledsoe the better athlete period.
I am in no way saying Burke isn't athletic because he is, but I just feel Siva is a better raw athlete.
If the hand and eye coordination, and stop and start played such a big factor in athleticism, combines would hold that in a test.......and if they do it doesn't factor in much with overall athleticism, because if a player is faster,quicker,stronger and can jump higher than you they are deemed the better athlete to anyone period.
If you define it by combine scores, than what you have been saying is right on. Still, the definition for athleticism is quite broad and goes beyond just these things. Lets say you rate Eric Bledsoe now as a 10. Than where do Peyton Siva, Chris Paul and Trey Burke fall? Chris Paul had a 32 inch standing and 38 max at his combine. He may not have the raw speed of many other PG's, just never really bought him not being at least an 8-9 in a current NBADraft.net athleticism model.
The combine measures raw athleticism, but is that all the athleticism a basketball player is measured by? Do you think teams do not factor in these other things? Do you have an idea of how to give a combine score or grade to stop and start or hand-eye coordination? Also, do teams not measure these things when they are working players out? To me, athleticism can be measured by things outside of the combine as well, especially in terms of a basketball player.
So, once again, I agree that Peyton Siva is probably a notch better when it comes to "raw athleticism" (jumping, straight line running) than a Trey Burke. Though, I do believe that athleticism can be more than just these factors. I think that Magic and Bird, while not incredible "raw athletes", were amazing at a few other factors that clearly separated them from other players on more than just fundamental ability. Their hand-eye coordination, conditioning and change of speed/direction were excellent. This may not be classically viewed as athleticism, though once again, athleticism has a VERY broad definition.
I understand where you are coming from, just think that all in all, it is just a way to try and get some kind of order into where these guys are going to be drafted and what they bring to a team equation. Would be interested to see how you would rate top PG's and once again if you feel you have a better or alternative system. Just know that with athleticism, I do not think it is just purely combine numbers or one guy being able to throw down dunks in a game. This is once again why I did not really get upset when in the end Siva finished with a similar score to Burke.
MY BAD. I apologize to Aran, I did rate Peyton an 8 and 8. I was unaware that Burke had the same. I take full responsibility and apologize for putting this on Aran at all. The only difference in our rankings was on defense, where I had Peyton a 7 and Aran gave him one less. Still, I apologize earlier for insinuating that Aran changed my 9's to 8's.
I will explain my thought process, when I first rated Peyton, I had him WAY to high. I had him as a 9 and 9, with 9's in both intangibles and leadership. In the end, I felt that his overall rating was not indicative of where he was going to be taken in the draft. This is why I switched these to 8's. I did not realize that it was the same as Trey Burke, though I will say that I feel what I have said about overall athleticism having a broad definition as ringing true.
Will say that I am all ears for a suggestion towards the ratings, though once again they are more of a gauge than something set in stone. You do not really see them on most sites and I think all in all the total rating is meant to give you a picture of how we feel about this prospect as far as where they will be chosen and their next level ability. If I screwed up, so be it. If you read my scouting report, think I give Peyton credit as an athlete. Also think their are many ways to view athleticism beyond combine numbers.
Appreciate the constructive criticism but there are factors you need to accont for...
Jordan Farmar, for instance, had ridiculous hops in the combine but rarely dunks in games. If you can't use your athleticism because you get knocked off balance when you take the ball strong to the basket around traffic, you aren't fully able to utilize your athleticism, and therefore your athleticism is neutralized. Siva is a good examle of this.
Siva may have more pure end to end speed than Burke but can he blow by defenders and get to the basket any better than Burke? Does he have faster foot speed to defend than Burke?
aside from this athleticism being just an 8... how is his defense only a 6?