Where would you rank Jason Kidd in the all time point guards list?
my thing about Rondo is, even if he doesnt bring it every game defensively....he still can dominate strictly from a distributing perspective. Kidd is like this too. most of the time Kidd dominated with his passing. his ability to rebound helped him a lot in transition. Kidd and Rondo could dominate a game and their team would get the V....simply by the way they were able to get the ball to their teammates and the fashion they were able to do it in. Remember this year when Rondo had almost a 20/20/20 game? Well take away that first 20...and the defense, that still could be a dominant performance if I player gets 20 rebounds and 20 assists in the same game...or however many he had.
they could do all of that AND defend. Stockton is not in Kidd's class defensively. He made 2nd team all-defense like 5 times, Kidd did also. Kidd made 1st team 4 times though.
I dont think its clearcut because of people's perception, particularly when looking at it statistically. I grew up during this era, so I saw all of Stock and all of Kidd.
I also stated I would be in the minority. So I knew that coming into the thread.
Some of the people here I suspect didnt see both players in their primes...outside of footage....maybe I am wrong.
Case in point...people here are saying Robertson but never seen him play. Ok, cool. Notice I only gave my opinion as far as the best PG's I saw play. I didnt list Robertson or Cousy.
Anybody that saw Robertson or Cousy play live....stand up now.
Since we're talking about franchie point guards, D-Rose just hit the three to send the Bulls into OT against the Pistons. In case your wondering I'm only watching the game because it has lotto implications involving my Dubs. Noah gave a beautiful pick, and Rose nailed the shot, damn Rodney Stucky missed two late free throws, and the game winning shot.
The fact that Stockton V Kidd is even a debate makes me think that Kidd should be above Stockton, Stockton was always paired with a franchise scorer in Malone, Kidd took a team to the Finals twice without really having a franchise scorer alongside him at all, everything he did goes up a level to me because he didn't have that franchise scorer paired with him for long at all. While Kidd clearly wasn't the shooter Stockton was, how many of Kidd's shots were bail out shots with the shot clock running down compared to Stockton, who had Malone to do most of that? That may have lowered Kidd's % just that little bit more.
BigD - the percentages aren't close, though. Stockton is one of the better shooting 1's ever.
This whole arguement that kidd "made it to the finals with nothing", and then saying stockton should be penalized for "having Malone", is just completely stupid. Sure Kidd's roster wasn't as good as the Jazz's roster, but do you remember the teams that Kidd had to play to make it out of the eastern conference?!?! The teams he was playing in the east had as little as he had, for god sakes take a minute to go look at the rosters of teams 3-8, even the top seed pistons weren't that great as it was a year or two before they got sheed... I'm all for this debate as I think it's great, but to say kidd had nothing at all and not comparing the 2's competition is just lazy.
its not a penalization by playing with Malone...but...the fact is
he is the 2nd all time leading scorer in NBA history and Stockton played with him every year of his 19 year career. 36k points....what if Kidd played with Malone for 19 years, thats all I am saying.
Kidd did just as much if not more with less.
If you watched Malone play, you would realize that he needed a great point guard to be as great as he was. I really think Stockton kind of made Malone one of the all time greats. I'm not saying Malone wouldn't have been an all star with just an average point guard, but this guy did not have a great ability to create his own shot. Not when we are talking about a guy who some call the greatest powerforward of all time. The two Malone plays are filling the break for a feed from Stockton and a pick and roll, but again having the ball delivered by one of the great passers of the game.
Maybe Malone made Stockton as well. Malone was so smart and so durable he was there every game rolling to the basket to finish at the rim. I don't think we will ever really know. They both put up ridiculous stats year in and year out playing together, but Stockton didn't seem to have elite physical abilities and Malone didn't seem to have elite basketball skills (I'm talking about things like elite post moves, three point range, ball handling, stuff like that). But their stats are elite.
I don't know about that...
I looked at Stockton's numbers during the first three years of his career and he was probably average to above average, but nothing special. He wasn't a starter and played under 24 minutes per game.
His rookie season, before Malone arrived, he was ordinary. Even during Malone's rookie season, in which Malone average 15 points on over 50% FG and 9 rebounds, Stockton still wasn't all that good. Malone put up monster numbers in his second season and Stockton still was probably average to above average and playing less than 23 minutes per game, while Malone started every game and averaged 35 minutes.
To me, Malone was headed for stardom regardless. It's no coincidence to me that Stockton had his best seasons during Malone's most dominate years. Even when Stockton somewhat started to slow down in 97-98 (Stockton only played 64 games compared to Malone's 81), Malone was still putting up monster numbers at 27, 10, 4 and 53% shooting. Not to mention he was playing major minutes, while Stockton's were 30 or below.
It's hard to say, but I think it's easier to lean towards Malone making Stockton a Hall of Famer rather than Stockton making him one.