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Where would you rank Jason Kidd in the all time point guards list?

OldSkoolBasketball
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Where would you rank Jason Kidd in the all time point guards list?

One of the best at getting triple doubles, a lot of 3 pt fg made, great defender, 10 time all star, nba champ, etc.


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I got him 2nd

Part of the Bay Area bias, but I got him 2nd behind Magic.

1. Magic

2. Kidd

3. Stockton

4. Thomas

5. Nash

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I just had this same

I just had this same conversation with some guys on my team. I also have him second behind Magic and in front of Stockton.

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umm i have him at 5th. 1.

umm i have him at 5th.

1. Magic. 5 championships. 3 MVP. 3 Finals MVP. He can play all 5 positions. No argument here.

2. Robertson. Hes the true triple double machine. 1 MVP. 1 Champ.

3. John Stockton. Epitome of point guard.

4. Thomas. I have him rank higher than kidd just because he actually led his team to championships. he was the leader of the bad boys.

5. Jason Kidd.

Honorable Mention: Steve Nash, Bob Cousy, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, and Nate

inukawaii8
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umm i have him at 5th. 1.

sorry double post

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Kidd

There is no way he is ahead of John Stockton, Stockton was a beter shooter and passer than kidd. Johnny Boy just didn't shoot as often as he should have.

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i think 2nd is too

i think 2nd is too high

thomas should be higher and if you tell me i have one game to win and i could either have GP in his prime or Kidd, i'm taking GP. defensively he was lock down awesome, offensively he was far more talented then kidd, and a good distributor BUT ... one guy only has 2 career seasons over 20 P.E.R. - the other guy has 10

,,, guess which one is which?

answer: Payton = 10

Kidd = 2

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I think John Stockton was overrated

and a defensive liability... But if you talking numbers then yes he should be up there... Stockton in his prime wouldn't be able to hold J. Kidd in his... Plus I think that system he was in inflated his numbers similar to Steve Nash... That's just me though...

1. Magic

2. Oscar

3. I. Thomas (dude was a monster)

4. J. Kidd

5. John Stockton (Had less Finals apperances than J. Kidd and no ring... Not to mention going for a 3 in '98 down one... SMH)

Honorable Mention: GP, Steve Nash (only because of the MVP's), Mark Jackson, Cousy...

ItsVictorOladipo
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think John Stockton was

think John Stockton was overrated

and a defensive liability... But if you talking numbers then yes he should be up there... Stockton in his prime wouldn't be able to hold J. Kidd in his... Plus I think that system he was in inflated his numbers similar to Steve Nash... That's just me though...

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A defensive liability? You have got to be kidding me. Stockton was a very good defender. Are you basing your assesment of his skin color and nothing else...

1. Magic

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Isiah Thomas (was the lynchpin of back to back championship teams, 12 time all-star, 19.2 PPG, 9.3 APG and 1.9 SPG in his career and put up 4 years of 20 PPG and 10 APG including 21.2 PPG and 13.9 APG in 1985)

4. John Stockton (best passer in NBA history, a very good defender and an excellent shooter)

5. Bob Cousy (changed the game, 13 all-star games, 10 All-NBA first teams, 1 MVP, 6 championships, and led the league in assists 8 times, doesn't get the respect he should).

6. Jason Kidd

7. Walt Frazier

8. Gary Payton

9. Steve Nash

10. Nate Archiblad

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dude, seriously, how was

dude, seriously, how was stockton a defensive liability??????????

wikipedia: "On defense, Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Jason Kidd, who is currently active"

enough said, you're tripping on this 1. he had one of the nastiest hand checks and was extremely pesky defender, not to mention dirty

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looking at the lists, it made

looking at the lists, it made me think that elite PG's are only few. 2 are still active (kidd,nash). other players are retired 10+ years ago. while now we only have dwight as the legit player to enter the top 10 lists of centers.(bynum and dmc still has time to catch up) but its a mile away to crack the top 10 when u have shaq,wilt,russell,drob,akeem and so on. PG's of today has a high chance of making it ( paul, dwill, rose, irving etc )

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John wall

You left out John wall for guys who has a chance to make it there. He has to much talent not to be on that list.

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Kobe is the closest player

Kobe is the closest player we've seen thats similar to Jordan...And Kidd is the closest player we've seen to Magic..

I believe Kidd could've been the 3rd best point guard All-Time behind only Magic & Robertson..But he was a little Too Unselfish...Teams use to leave him wide open on offense and dare him to shot...He never was a great shooter,but with his high IQ,ball handling ability to get anywhere he wanted on the floor..He had the talent to have been at least a 18 to 20 pt career scorer....Some might argue that he didnt need to score more,but remember Magic didnt start winning his MVP Awards until he Increased his scoring average and he played with 2 guys that are on the top 50 players list.....

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Kidd is without a question top 3 ever pg

You guys that dont believe kidd is top 3 is an insane notion. First let me prove his point for being over John Stockton. Name me a hall of fame player J Kidd played with prior to Dirk. John Stockton was great but it helps to have the second all-time leading scoring in nba history on your team through your career(Karl Malone). Also could stockton have led those nets teams to two nba finals, i doubt it greatly. Stockton maybe the steals leader, but was not a better defender than kidd. Kidd can guard ones, two, and threes, effectively, especially in his prime. Stockton is clearly the better shooter, but that its. Kidd got Mikki Moore a huge deal, made kenyon Martin an all-star, rejuvenated the careers of Rodney Rogers, Kerry Kittles,Kevin Johnson, Vince Carter, Alonzo Mourning, and made Richard Jefferson look like an all-star, and oh year, help Dirk get his first ring. Kidd is relentless and his will to win is as great as one in the history of the game. When it came to making players better, only Magic can compare. Iaisiah was great but so was Joe Dumars(MVP in the finals of their 2nd championship) and Dennis Rodman. My point is Kidd took a bottom seller team and made them a championship contenter. He made phoneix a threat with their three guard offense, a team steve nash had to come off the bench for. Even Magic had Worthy, Kareem, Scott. Kidd did the most with the least, that a real pg. Anybody can pass to Karl Malone, Kareem, Worthy, Dumars.

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Has anybody actually seen any

Has anybody actually seen any footage of Oscar Robertson play or we just going by stats because I've read he was a stats first type player and he didn't win until late in his career

ItsVictorOladipo
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You guys that dont believe

You guys that dont believe kidd is top 3 is an insane notion. First let me prove his point for being over John Stockton. Name me a hall of fame player J Kidd played with prior to Dirk. John Stockton was great but it helps to have the second all-time leading scoring in nba history on your team through your career(Karl Malone). Also could stockton have led those nets teams to two nba finals, i doubt it greatly. Stockton maybe the steals leader, but was not a better defender than kidd. Kidd can guard ones, two, and threes, effectively, especially in his prime. Stockton is clearly the better shooter, but that its. Kidd got Mikki Moore a huge deal, made kenyon Martin an all-star, rejuvenated the careers of Rodney Rogers, Kerry Kittles,Kevin Johnson, Vince Carter, Alonzo Mourning, and made Richard Jefferson look like an all-star, and oh year, help Dirk get his first ring. Kidd is relentless and his will to win is as great as one in the history of the game. When it came to making players better, only Magic can compare. Iaisiah was great but so was Joe Dumars and Dennis Rodman. My point is Kidd took a bottom seller team and made them a championship contenter. He made phoneix a threat with their three guard offense, a team steve nash had to come off the bench for. Even Magic had Worthy, Kareem, Scott. Kidd did the most with the least, that a real pg. Anybody can pass to Karl Malone, Kareem, Worthy, Dumars.

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I can agree that Kidd did the most with the least but that notion penalizes other players for having better teams which is pretty ridiculous.

Yes, Stockton had Malone to pass to but likewise Malone had Stockton to get him the ball, it's a double edged sword. That being said Stockton helped guys like Thurl Bailey and Jeff Malone look like All-Stars and it's not like he has a slight edge in the assists department to Kidd, Stockton rewrote the passing records like Wilt rewrote the scoring records. Kidd hit the 10 APG mark on 3 occasions, with a career high of 10.8 which is very impressive no doubt. What Stockton did was staggering though. Stockton averaged at least 11.2 APG for 9 straight years and averaged a over 13.5 APG in four of those years! His career average of 10.5 APG is almost as much as Kidd's career high. Would Kidd have averaged more assists if he had an elite scorer for the early part of his career (pre Vince Carter)? Absolutely. Would he have averaged 3 more assists per game? I doubt it.

Stockton was the better shooter and passer IMO, Kidd the better defender and rebounder. It's certainly not cut and dried as to who was the better player overall but giving Stockton the edge is far from "insane"

Also.."anybody can pass to...Dumars." I can't believe you used Dumars as an example, the guy wasn't exactly an offensive juggernaut, he averaged 16.1 PPG over his career and only hit the 20 PPG mark 3 times, Thomas's best seasons were actually prior to Dumars breaking the 18 PPG plateau. The year Thomas averaged 13.9 APG he was dishing to Kelly Tripucka, Vinny Johnson, Bill Laimbeer and John Long, not exactly an elite squad. Thomas was also an intense competitor famous for his will to win.

Bob Cousy is an interesting guy because obviously with his limited athleticism he wouldn't thrive in today's game, however for his time period he was dominant. He was as important to the Celtics on offense as Bill Russell was on defense. He was the straw that stirred the drink and was far ahead of his peers at the time. If guys like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain get credit for dominating the late 50s and 60s then Cousy deserves the same kind of praise. Taking into account different eras I gave Cousy the edge but I can definitly see many people choosing Kidd over him.

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njhooper tnx for that im too

njhooper tnx for that im too lazy to write down those sht but uve made our point, no disrespect to stockton, one of the best ever but id pick jkidd over him.

ItsVictorOladipo
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Has anybody actually seen any

Has anybody actually seen any footage of Oscar Robertson play or we just going by stats because I've read he was a stats first type player and he didn't win until late in his career.

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Haha I've seen bried footage of him play and it's relatively ugly by today's standards. I'm mostly going on a combination of stats, accomplishments (All-Star games, All-NBA selections, MVP voting) and books that I've read about him and the history of the NBA. Obviously that is flawed to an extent but rating players All-Time always is. Like I said about Cousy though, if people can consistantly place Russell and Chamberlain in the top 5 of centers all-time and Jerry West in the top 3 shooting guards All-Time, then guys like the Big O, Cousy, Bob Petit, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry etc deserve their credit too.

My top 5 list of PGs I've seen play would go like this:

1. Magic Johnson

2. Isiah Thomas

3. John Stockton

4. Jason Kidd

5. Gary Payton

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if one is going to present

if one is going to present that jason kidd did the most with the least, it is equally fair to present the counter argument that the eastern conference in those days was brutally awful, possibly the weakest either conference has ever been at the top and as a whole. everyone knew pretty much every year that the real championship was won in the WCF

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1. ORobertson (Was Magic

1. ORobertson (Was Magic before Magic, Mr Triple Double for a whole season)

2. EJohnson (Mr Versatility, leader of Showtime Lakers)

3. IThomas (the little general that led the Bad Boy crew and deserved to be on the Dream Team)

4. GPayton (The Glove was the biggest trash talker but he could back it up)

5. JStockton (Mr Durable, a tough competitor)

6. JKidd (only a consistent jumper away from being a legit top 3 pg)

7. NArchibald (only player to lead entire NBA in ppg & apg during same season)

8. SNash (2 time MVP, an assist machine)

9. KJohnson (who knew Mark Price backup was this good)

10. THardaway (crossover anyone)

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Kidd has to be a serious

Kidd has to be a serious contender as an all time top 3 PG. Magic would be number one on my list - he was that good at his peak. As a Phoenix fan, I'm obviously a huge Nash fan and John Stockton's longevity and records are likely to stand forever.

I'd have Kidd in my top 5 certainly but behind Magic, the list does tend to change depending how I view it.

I'll say this about Kidd, he's probably one of the best players never to have been MVP and he's an HOF lock as soon as he is elligible.

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Magic first, obviously

1) Magic - Obviously

2) Isiah - Best player on 2 champions.

3) Stockton - Edges Kidd due to much better shooting.

4) Kidd - Excellent all-around.

5) Gary Payton - As good as anyone except Magic in his prime, wasn't as good for as long as Stockton or Kidd.

Never saw Oscar play, but figure he was more of a hybrid PG/SG. Plus stats are inflated for that period.

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I am going to be biased

I am going to be biased towards the players I have seen play. Also, I am biased in favor of later-day athletes, because the athleticism is a different level.

Obviously I am in the minority here, but the only guys I rank ahead of Kidd are Magic and Isiah.

If Kidd were playing in Oscar's day there is no doubt in my mind he would average a triple double, and could do it for more than one season. Kidd was a very good athlete and his court vision rivals that of Magic.
Stockton was a great player but in these conversations I do feel he is overated.

Kidd was an animal from the moment he stepped on an NBA court. That Mavs team was so much fun to watch with Mash and J. Jackson.

You guys dont want to believe this, but Stockton WAS a defensive liability, at least more than Kidd was come playoff time. Playoffs are all about matchups. You can dominate in the regular season but if you cant matchup in the playoffs....YOU'RE DONE!

People forget, the years that MJ played baseball, everyone said...finally, the Jazz will get a title. They were dominant in the regular season and the favorites in the West despite finishing the regular season in 94 with a few less wins than the Rockets. The bottom line is, they COULD NOT CONTAIN the athleticism of Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell.

Stockton was 6'1" and Hornacek was 6'4". Smith was 6'3" and Maxwell was 6'4". They are already going against guys their size or taller/bigger. On top of that, they were NO WHERE near the athletes that Smith and Maxwell were and that was the difference. When forced to contain superior athletes in the playoffs, Stockto just couldnt do it. Olajuwon avg 28ppg and Malone 27ppg for the finals. So they cancel each other out. Stockton and Hornecek avg more points than Smith and Maxwell. But still, Smith avg over 14ppg and Max over 13ppg. Thats too much, considering the Rockets also had Rob Horry, Sam Cassell and Mario Elie.

The Jazz guards were exposed absolutely by the blinding speed and quickness of Smith and Maxwell, two elite world class athletes who were pretty good ballhandlers and shooters as well.

Had that been Kidd in there....different story. Kidd had the athleticism and size to stick with those guys, plus he could do more than assist.....he could rebound and start the break, ala Magic.

As I said, I am going to be in the minority I am sure....but I have never ranked Stockton ahead of Kidd. Kidd was a franchise player in his own right. This goes deeper than numbers. You have to do the eye test and look at impact. Kidd was a game changer all by himself.

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Tuck

John Stockton was in no way a defensive liability. If you want to make him #5 on your list thats fine, but you can not call him a bad defender. In another thread you said:

"Yes I am arrogant because I haven't been wrong... Whenever you have so much success at calling ish for what it is you can do that..."

Well you were just wrong.

surve
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There obviously is some

There obviously is some Stockton bias going on and that was the Jazz' heyday when I was growing up. I seen it.

"There is no way he is ahead of John Stockton, Stockton was a beter shooter and passer than kidd. "

"3) Stockton - Edges Kidd due to much better shooting."

Really??? What did Stockton's shooting ever get him? Kidd at 38 was able to be a key piece to a title just for the simple fact that he could hit the open three. He was never a pure shooter in the traditional sense, but boy did he ever make you pay for giving him any daylight from 3pt range.

I am not strictly a numbers guy but sometimes the numbers are overwhelmingly lopsided. You guys say Stockton was the "MUCH BETTER SHOOTER"?

Kidd has made almost 1,900 3-pointers. (3rd all-time)

Stockton has made 845 3-pointers. (96th all-time)

you may wonder if Kidd had a significantly longer career, but Kidd is 38 and in his 18th season. Stockton played 19 seasons and retired at 40. thats pretty overwhelming.

Stockton shot a higher 3-point percentage but he was never really the focal point of offense, it was Malone inside...and for years Hornacek was their best perimeter shooter and scorer. I will dismiss the fact that Kidd's 3-point shooting % is 4% less than Stockton, even though he had twice as many attempts....for the fact that Kidd didnt play with the type of talent Stock did, plus Kidd was for most of his career the best player on the team he played on.

That view on shooting is skewed, it doesnt mean much to me considering what Kidd has accomplished as being prolific from behind the arc. Stockton was a better pure shooter but in the grand scheme of things what difference did it make? Kidd was a damn good shooter, just not in the pure or traditional sense. This is the NBA guys, you dont hit close to 2,000 3-point shots and not be able to shoot.

Now, as far as Stock being the better shooter and passer....ok, I'll give him that, but its not like its a landslide. On the flipside, Kidd was the superior athlete....by landslide.....not even close. Of course Kidd is a PG who has been a better rebounder than some SF's....so there is absolutely no comparison there. Stock had slightly better ast/tov ratio, actually they turned the ball over at the same rate, so ballhandling was equal but Stock just avg slightly better in the assist catagory.

I really dont get how people rate Stockton ahead of Isiah. Thats another subject. I rank Kidd behind Isiah, but they impacted the game in different ways. Its not criminal to have Kidd instead of Isiah, even though I believe Isiah was better by a fair but not great margin.

I feel that Kidd is being underated just like I dont feel Rondo gets his just due today because of his impact on a game. I guess people love pure shooters and scorers....but I just dont get it. I used to think CP3 was absolutely the best PG today but the more and more I see Rondo just take over games, I just cant go with that notion with a clear conscience. Who cares if this guy cant shoot, he has proven to be a winner (with a title) without a jumpshot. Kidd on the other hand is a good shooter. He has dominated games with his defense, rebounding and passing....but for the simple fact that he was not a catch and shoot guy or an off-the-dribble guy, or a versatile scorer, his worth and impact as a player is underated.

So for me...gimme Magic, Isiah, and Kidd. After that I dont have an argument for who you want to pick.

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being a good defender does

being a good defender does not mean a player can not be a liability come playoff time.

in the playoffs, its all about matchups. Kidd at 6'4" with his athleticism and strength has never been a defensive liability that I can recall. Even last year. Stock on the other hand is ok if he is going against someone with the same size and athleticism....however, the Rockets guards were taller and much quicker and faster and that is what got the Jazz iced in those series. Having more steals doesnt make you a better overall defender.

Guys like Westbrook today are absolute matchup nightmares come playoff time. Whether you are a good defender or not doesnt matter....if you cant reasonably matchup with his size and athleticism, you will become a liability at some point.

There were a few reasons why the Jazz never won a title, a lot of it is attributed to how good the other teams were and the Jazz not seizing the moment or blowing it in big playoff series. If you go deeper to analyze and you actually saw WHY they lost strategically, its because Stock and Hornacek could never matchup with elite athleticism.....when it mattered most. Bottom line.

As I stated in previous threads....free agency is much different even in JKidd's time than it was then. Stock and Malone played together forever....and had some pretty damn good players along the way, like Blue Edwards, Byron Russell, Antoine Carr, Jeff Malone, Thurl Bailey, etc.... Jerry Sloan was a helluva coach IMO and the Jazz had such a well coached team and system. If you put J-Kidd in there, just maybe the GOAT doesnt go perfect in the Finals.

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John Stockton did not get on the ball steals...

And was EXTREMELY small... His sh*t came like A.I. did from passes and double teams... He didn't stop ANY All-Star PG he came acrossed... During this lock out I watched A TON of old basketball... Either on YouTube or downloading it from PirateBay... You guys are trying to remember with flawed memories (which is a sceintific fact we all do this) from years ago... He was NOT, I repeat NOT a lock down defender and a liability... It had nothing to do with him being white just small...

I'm sorry outside of that pick and roll offense what exactly did he do??? Steve Nash got into that offense and became a 2 time MVP... Like I said, TO ME he's overrated and I really don't know how good he really was... BUT I do have to respect the numbers so I'll put him at 5...

Jason Kidd led the Nets to 2 Finals appearances with K Mart and Richard Jefferson... John Stockton had one of the Greatest PF to ever play the game and went there twice as well... You can say what you want but actual "play" I just don't see how John was better than them guys I put above him...

Majority of yall discrediting rings as well I see... Which is one of the requirements of being the best...

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NBanflguy

How exactly did you prove me wrong??? By saying John Stockton wasn't a defensive liability?? Well I call BULL SH*T he was... What do you have for your rebuttal??? His steals?? Like I said before Allen Iverson lead the league in steals for years and wasn't a lock down defender... Give me something with substance... In 98' he couldn't gaurd Harper... The Bulls DOMINATED that Jazz backcourt...

Like I said I don't think yall know how potent that pick n roll was... Doesn't Stockton and Malone own the most assists to teammate record??? So majority of his passes did come from that pick and roll... Which also give insight into why it might have been the system then anything else... Something that I feel Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer maximized as well...

But show me something where John Stockton was this defensive mastermind yall claim he was...

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I remember after

Isaiah got snubbed from that Dream Team... The Pistons played the Jazz and Zay DOMINATED Stockton... I mean DOMINATED... Dude was terrorizing John so much that Malone threw an elbow at Thomas... Isaiah dropped 40 on John that game... That's when Isaiah was playing terrible all year too... I'm just saying your boy defense was suspect....

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Kevin Johnson

came off injury and went for 30 against John Stockton... I downloaded that game to see Malone versus Barkley match up... I didn't even know John Stockton was a victim like that...

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i think a lot of people are

i think a lot of people are becoming prisoner's of the moment in this kidd discussion regarding his shooting. kidd has become a much better and more consistent shooter toward the end of his career AND ... is still a career 40% shooter (not from 3 --- altogether!)

and like was said previously, even guys you would consider good defenders ... come playoff time will have difficulty matching up with guys as athletic as perhaps a russel westbrook? i think we'd all agree that rondo is a good defender at the pg position, but i recall a game earlier this season when westbrook just scorched rondo - so does that mean that he's a liability now? elite athletes will always be difficult to matchup with

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Robertson averaged 10+

Robertson averaged 10+ rebounds a game during a time when good centers averaged 20+ rebounds. It was a different game. The pace was faster and the players shot much less accurately. You couldn't be starter and not pick up 5 or 6 rebounds a night back then. Can we please stop makeing Oscar Robertson one of the all time greats because in 1962 he was 8th in the league in rebounding (having less than half the rebounds that Wilt had). Seriously, this triple double stuff is kind of silly when you are talking about comparing players from different eras. There are just less rebounds to go around. Jason Kidd grabing 8 a game is just as and probly more impressive than the rebounding that Oscar did.

Oscar should be discussed as one of the greats. But he was also traded in his prime (something that would never happen to Magic or Isiah) and his teams didn't win a ton. You can't just use the triple double argument though because there were just a lot more rebounds back then.

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Stockton v Kidd

Surve -

You make a good argument regarding Kidd. In his prime, he was better than Stockton. He was the best player on a team that made it to two Finals. Stockton can't say that.

However, for their careers Stockton shot 51.5% and 38.4% from 3, Kidd shot 40.0% and 34.8% from 3. Stockton's effective FG% is also much higher (54.6 to 46.2). Stockton was just a much better pure shooter. And considering their career PPGs are practically the same, around 13ppg, I'd say that gives Stockton a big edge in that category.

Stockton played consistently very, very well for a ridiculously long period of time. But Kidd has a ring, and he led two teams to the finals. Plus I think he doesn't get enough credit for the defense he played on Lebron and D-Wade at times in the finals last year. So I can certainly live with Kidd being ranked ahead of Stockton.

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No...

But I went thru that entire 1992-1993 season just now... Tim Hardaway averaged 25 against him... Terry Porter... I just mention Isaiah had 40... Kevin Johnon... Derek Harper...

You take Rondo and try to discredit my argument... Which isn't cool because Rondo doesn't bring it every game... Especially when the Celtics were losing game after game in the beginning of the season... So I could counter that with you were in the moment...

Well here's an argument... People were having SEASON HIGH games versus John Stockton and this is when you can hand check... So you tell me how good his defense was... Like Surve said earlier Houston dominated him... I saw some of these box scores and Karl Malone had 30-40 majority of these games versus top teams... While John struggled to get 10 and gave up 30... Utah was double teaming the cats John Stockton was gaurding...

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i've always thought the

i've always thought the triple double statistic for pg's is extremely overrated anyway ... it's more usually more of an indictment of the team's rebounding as a whole when pg's grab that many rebounds AND even in the case sometimes that it's not, rebounding is pretty far down the list of qualities i look for in a point guard if i'm a general manager, it's nice to have someone like rondo or westbrook who is competitive like that and probably better then their peers at grabbing long rebounds, but how about setting up teammates, the ability to breakdown a defender off the dribble, getting to your spots on the court, reading screen and roll defenses, finishing at the rim when in the paint, leadership, and general basketball IQ?

and there's not even a stat for this one, but how about the ability to control the pace of the game ... there's not even a stat for this one, but since we're talking about jason kidd and john stockton, they were two of the best at it!!!! an area where a pg's value lies outside of career assist numbers!

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I don't think that's fair to the big O

He dominated in an era where there were more talented gaurds than big men... Also fighting an off the court and on the court problem RACISM... He was a loner and had that me against the world mentality because he had to... Of all the great black players of his time how many were gaurds?? My point exactly.... With less teams so don't say that era was watered down.... because it wasn't

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Liability

What liability means is that you become a detriment due to your imbalance. Westbrook can torch Rondo. He can torch Rose and any other PG in the league. The problem is, that doesnt make Rondo a liability, because Rondo is dominant in other areas. Rose will dominate on the offensive end as well, so it cancels each other out.

Stockton was a liability come playoff time against the Rockets because you just cant let Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell go wild.

Put it like this....Kenny and Vernon couldve very well went wild on A.I. but the fact that A.I. was a 30ppg scorer doesnt make him a liability.

As far as Stock's shooting percentage.....I just dont feel that is an argument against Kidd. There were many years where Stock was not even the 2nd leading scorer on the Jazz. If he wasnt shooting a good percentage while playing with a guy that avg 29ppg and another avg 18ppg then he would be on the bench. Again, Stock was never forced to have to be THE guy on offense.

ON the best teams that Kidd played on, he was usually THE guy....and Kidd is not even a great scorer. Kidd was the leading scorer on that Nets Finals team IIRC.

I am going to really break this one down. In Kidd's 18 year career....do you know how many times he played with a 20 plus ppg scorer for at least half a season? 9. and 4 of those were with Vince Carter. 3 of those were with Dirk, in which they won the title in the 3rd. (I didnt count this year, but if you want to...that makes 10 times). Kidd was often responsible for a large percentage of his teams points. Like the years in Phoenix, where Gugliotta avg 17ppg and Kidd avg 16.9 or where Marion avg 18ppg and Kidd avg 16.9. For half his career Kidd has had to carry a bulk of the scoring load and was not afforded the luxury of being a complimentary scorer.

Now hold on to your seats guys, because this is a glaring statistic. Do you know how many times Stockton played with a 20ppg scorer in his 19 year career? EVERY SINGLE YEAR! On top of that Malone avg over 25ppg......12 TIMES!!!! My God! That fact right there should end this argument...because not only was Kidd for half of his career relied heavily on to be a primary scorer....but had he played with someone like that....he wouldve easily had more assists and a higher assist average! He rarely experienced that luxury. Only with Mashburn and Jackson for 2 years, Vince for 4 years and Dirk in the past 3-4 years.

Stock played on teams where their 2nd leading scorer (Darrell Griffith, Jeff Malone, Byron Russell, Jeff Hornacek, Thurl Bailey) avg more points per game than the leading scorer on Kidd's teams (Tom Gugliotta, Rex Chapman, Cliff Robinson, Shawn Marion, Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson)

Kidd was also good enough to come right in the league and start, while Stock was on the bench of a team that had Adrian Dantley (26ppg) and Darrell Griffith (22ppg) his first year....and second year Dantley avg 30ppg. What if Kidd wouldve came into the league with those types of players? Mashburn and Jax were good, but they were all young! Jackson had been in the league for 2 years and Mashburn was just coming off his rookie season when Kidd got there and they only played 2 years together! Hell, Kidd only started playing with a group of prolific scorers in the twilight of his career with Dirk, Josh Howard, and Terry (plus Marion and Butler).

My assessment is, Kidd was a franchise player for most of his career, Stockton was not. Kidd was an MVP level player at least twice in his career and many felt he got jobbed. (Was Stock ever an MVP level player?) Kidd was asked and expected to do more and he did not disappoint and help deliver a title. Stockton was never expected to lead a team and if he was, he couldnt and failed to win a title with excellent pieces.

This is a situation where individual numbers are deceptive as hell. In raw individual stats it may appear that Stock is better or that this is a close comparison. To me, its not even close if you take into consideration all of the data I have provided you with.

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triple doubles

"i've always thought the triple double statistic for pg's is extremely overrated anyway"

I dont think you guys realize how hard it is to get one.

"rebounding is pretty far down the list of qualities i look for in a point guard if i'm a general manager"

that is not necessarily the first quality you look for, but having that ability can allow you to dominate a game if you are a pass first pg.....because it makes you lethal because you can instantly start the break instead of waiting for a big man to pass you the ball and allowing the defense to get set. this is what made Magic good, Kidd good, it makes Rondo good today and it will eventually become a trademark of John Wall. Very few players can do that. Lebron is a guy who can do it but he doesnt play PG full time.

"it's more usually more of an indictment of the team's rebounding as a whole when pg's grab that many rebounds"

so you are just going to indict the team that has the guard that rebounds well and NOT indict the opposing team who let the guards get the rebounds??? now thats logic for you. this is the NBA....this is the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY. The opposing team should have guards and forwards that can at least box out to keep guys like Kidd and Rondo from getting 19 and 20 rebounds....geez. To me, thats not an indictment of the opposing team as much as it is a rare and unique quality of the guard that is able to get the rebounds.

So Kidd is overated because he rebounded better than a lot of Small Forwards? Why are you penalizing him because he was an astronomical rebounder??? Rebounds are not always about jumping ability, brute strength, size and length. Its about timing and anticipation....one of the reasons Kevin Love is so good while only being 6'8".

I just dont see how the hell anyone can say triple doubles are overated....only except when they are trying to discredit someone like Kidd and more notoriously Lebron.

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Nice analysis on Stockton

Nice analysis on Stockton Surve. And good points. But I think the counter to your point about Stockton playing with 20 point scorers, is of course he played with 20 point scorers, Stockton made everyone so much better by setting them up that anyone that he focused on was going to score 20 points + a game. Malone you say is one of the all time greats at PF, but he had a rudimentary post game and an only decent long range jumper. He had to be set up to score 20+ a game and he was very lucky to be playing with one of the best set up men in the game.

Finally, I just can't call a guy who gets a bunch of steals a defensive liability. I won't say Stockton was a strong defender, but the elite steals he got you every night should make up for his on ball defense and let us call him average on D. A steal is a huge point swing. Generally, a possession is worth 1 point, so you take away a possession from the other team and thereby take away a point. However a steal often means you transition to offense while the other team isn't ready. So now you are running out for an easy layup. In his prime, Stockton is giving you 3 steals a night! That has got to get to the point where it is messing with the other team's head.

Now J. Kidd became a very good defender and you can certainly give him an edge over Stockton on defense. But I remember those Stockton/Hornacek Utah teams as being basically good defensive teams. I could be wrong, but I don't recall them being at all like the Nash Suns where defense was a problem area.

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Tallman, good points. When I

Tallman, good points. When I say he was a defensive liability I am only speaking from a matchup perspective. Not full time. Stockton was a good defender....no doubt about it. The Jazz, like the Lakers, and the championship Spurs teams is one of those teams who had excellent team defense. He wasnt very threatening on-ball, but he was a good defender. What I mean by liability is, come playoff time, if the matchups allowed for it, he could be exploited. He could get 3 or 4 steals but if you cant contain speed, like Smith and Maxwell had, well that could be the difference in the game. Stock and Hornacek had good defensive teams, TEAM DEFENSE...but individually they were exploited by players that had superior speed, quickness, and sometimes size as well.

Team defense helped them out a lot but in the playoffs its all about matchups. So my point is, Kidd was not as easily exploitable as Stockton. Even if he was he had something to compensate for that, thats where the rebounding comes in. Those Rocket teams wouldve had a time on their hands trying to stop Kidd from getting the board and starting a break.

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"6. JKidd (only a consistent

"6. JKidd (only a consistent jumper away from being a legit top 3 pg)"

see, this is the argument we are having about Rondo right now. Rondo cant shoot...but why is that keeping him out of the top 3 current PGs or top 5 at least. he dominates games WITHOUT a jumpshot. this is why it seems hypocritical to me to hype Anthony Davis so much just because he dominates on D. He scores like 2 points but dominates with shotblocking and rebounding and he is the greatest thing since sliced bread but Rondo does the same thing on an NBA level with rebounding, assists and defense but he is not in the class of Paul, Williams, or Rose....I dont get it.

Kidd didnt need a jumper to be top 3. He won a championship well past his prime at 38 years old. I will argue to say he was even a shell of himself on defense and athleticism. I dont care about his jumper really, I only care that he is 3rd all time in 3 point field goals....and that he has hit almost 2,000 3 pointers.

If you want to say he has no legit jumper then fine....but the fact is, almost 9, 000 of his points have come from beyond 23'.

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let's forget Kidd for a

let's forget Kidd for a minute....how does anyone rank Stockton ahead of Isiah Thomas????

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1. Magic 2. Stockton 3.

1. Magic

2. Stockton

3. Robertson

4. Thomas

5. Payton

6. Kidd

I'm biased towards Payton though, he's one of my favorite players, he can easily be 6th, behind Kidd.

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glad you brought rondo into

glad you brought rondo into the discussion on the rebounding ... have you checked the celtics team rebounding stats this year?

also, i acknowledged it is beneficial to have a guy who can do those things ... BUT ... i'm not ready to make rondo, westbrook, and kyle lowry my three best PG's in the league because they average more rebounds than the others --- also, we would have to detract from rondo's greatness and make him a liability defensively by your argument because when he gets lit up by a rose or a westbrook (who are just impossible matchups for pretty much anyone) he doesn't always necessarily cancel out their offense with his own --- but if we're going to accept the idea that he dominates in other area's, mostly as a set-up man ... then isn't it only logically fair to apply that same standard to stockton?

i personally think it's very close between the two, but i don't think that you can just slam john stockton here --- also the 40% field goal shooting means that he's not a guy who could carry an offense with his scoring, that is very inefficient --- kidd is more comparable to rondo for that reason, although rondo shoots higher percentages ... mostly because he's not relied on to be THE guy on offense for them, like you said about stockton --- who also was never a guy you could rely on to be THE guy on offense, but was a much more efficient shooter even in a secondary role --- even more so than kidd has been since his jumpshot improved later in his career

it's safe to say the fact that so many people are going back and forth on this means there will likely be no clear consensus

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But I went thru that entire

But I went thru that entire 1992-1993 season just now... Tim Hardaway averaged 25 against him... Terry Porter... I just mention Isaiah had 40... Kevin Johnon... Derek Harper...

Those were all good players though and without film those points can be misleading. Some of those points could have come off fast breaks, free throws, switches, or Stockton could have played perfect defense, but they still hit a very tough shot. Another guy's points is not neccesarily the best measure of how good you are at defense.

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Definitely not top 3, however

Definitely not top 3, however absolutely in top 6 or 7.

Off the top of my head:

Magic

Robertson

Stockton

Maybe Kidd goes here...its so subjective....I think 2 MVP's and should have had a 3rd puts Nash in the top 5...

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@ItsDwightHoward I don't

@ItsDwightHoward

I don't remember John Stockton stopping anyone... He was great in the passing lanes and jumping offensive players on the double team, but he wasn't a very good defender in my opinion.

---

1. Magic Johnson - The fact he couldn't defend gets overlooked, but his physical gifts, vision, unselfishness and winning intangibles were one of a kind.

2. Isiah Thomas - Most people have John Stockton here and I have no problem with that, but Thomas was amazingly talented and *competitive*... He was just as competitive as Michael Jordan and Larry Bird in my opinion. He'd do anything to win. He was similar to Chris Paul, except more killer at the offensive end.

3. John Stockton - An amazing floor general. Durability. Longevity. Toughness. His steal numbers suggest he was a great defender, which isn't true, but he was adequate.

4. Jason Kidd - An amazing overall player and at both ends of the floor. Was highly touted since junior high and never disappointed. Shooting was his only real weakness, but he's tightened that up as he's gotten older. Longevity.

5. Oscar Robertson - He could fill a box score and was the "LeBron" of his day, but you can't ignore the fact he played for a lot of losing teams.

6. Gary Payton - I'd probably take a peak Payton over a peak Kidd, but I give Kidd the edge due to longevity. A complete basketball player who's the best defender ever at his position.

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@ItsDwightHowardI don't

@ItsDwightHoward

I don't remember John Stockton stopping anyone... He was great in the passing lanes and jumping offensive players on the double team, but he wasn't a very good defender in my opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think Stockton was a lockdown defender and I wouldn't call him a "stopper". There are different kinds of defenders though, for example like when we (I think it was you but not completely sure) were discussing the difference between TD and Malone. As an "on the ball defender" he sometimes did struggle with faster PGs but off the ball he shone and was an absolute terror at anticipating the opponents passes.

He didn't have the size or athleticism for locking up one on one but off the ball he defended very well and played good team defense. He played the passing lanes better than almost anyone I have ever seen, was very savvy, had quick hands, fought through screens, and the one aspect of his defensive game that stood out the most to me was his ability to take a charge, the guy put his body in front of a bulldozing player many times, slid his feet and would come away with the call.

I agree that Kidd is the superior defender and I said so in my earlier post I just disagree with the notion that Stockton was a "liability". To me a defensive liability is a PG like Steve Nash or Derek Fisher. Stockton was a player with below average defensive tools that managed to contribute on the defensive end of the court with intelligence, heart and deceptive quickness.

Another thing which is kind of funny is that somebody pointed out that Stockton was burned by Kenny Smith in the pivotal Western Conference Finals. It's true he was burned in 2 out of 5 games (albeit Smith did very little in the other 3 games). But all players and defenders get burned some games. Even Rajon Rondo has allowed Jeff Teague and Mario Chalmers to have big games within the last week.

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NBanflguy... SMH

Man listen... I've watched a few of old Utah Jazz games recently... John Stockton wasn't stopping anyone... So you can go ahead and talk that BS but its not an accurate assessment of John...

@Surve- Here's the problem with Rondo... He's a good defender especially in an era of no hand-checking, BUT he doesn't bring it every game... The Celtics was trying to trade him mid-season and beginning, if he was playing like this all the time trust me he wouldn't be on the trading block... Him lacking a jump shot is only a big issue in the playoffs... Where you said "match-ups" is everything... If I can put a bigger gaurd on him and force him to shoot he then becomes a liability... To be clear I would rather have Rose, CP3, and Williams... Ason Kidd finally got a J... Magic was able to hit that 18 ft. shot constantly... Hell Eric Snow became more constant as well... When Rondo hitting that mid-range shot the Celtics are practically unbeatable... He has nice form, I just think he isn't working on it... If he had it though, he would be the best PG in the NBA hands down...

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Kidd is great and was one of

Kidd is great and was one of my favorites for a time, but objectively putting him ahead of Magic, Isiah or Oscar is absolutely insane. You can argue the Stockton case all day - I'd rather have Stockton thanks to his shooting percentage, but it's close - but he's just not the same caliber player of the top 3, all of whom have an arguement in top 10 ever.

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Incidentally, Jason Kidd was

Incidentally, Jason Kidd was shown in an interview today during the Mavs/Lakers game saying how Stockton should get mentioned in the same breadth as Isiah and Magic and that he should be considered one of the all time great point guards. Funny that I caught that just today.

All fantastic players though.

By the way, any votes for CP3 in his prime before the knee injury as one of the best PGs ever? You probably can't say that since we are only talking about a few seasons and nothing close to a championship. But he was pretty much flawless as a PG during those years. Now he isn't as good, though he still might be the best PG in the league.

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