WHere all the Andre Drummond's haters???
where are those guys who said he could be next Kwame or his ceiling was DeAndre Jordan..
the kid just shines, he never ever was lower than number TWO on my mock and even i think i underrated him, cause i don't now why Davis has such a better upside even though i really beleive he will be great too..
Andre gets better and better his per 36 on this season is around 13ppg 13(!)rpg 3(!)blp and still amazing for a center 1.5 steals per game..
with such a lot great rebounders out of this class in AD TRob Henson ect. Drummond was critized he didn't played to his strengths and was an average, but now he looks just clearly the best rebounding rookie i even could make a bold prediction he will be in top3 in 3years and his offensive rebounding is even greater something fenomenal, and his overall D and versatility out there will be him such a great defender i don't even know will he be any worse that Davis there..
in last couple games he is even better, the prime example was tonight only 21mins 11pts 14rebs 2ast stl and 5blocks!
here's his highlights : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX6jkXzStAw
that's what makes too named "the prodigy" on this site at only 15yo
I am not a hater but you are aware he is shooting a mind numbing 40 percent on free throws?
like I said not a hater just think you should post the bad with the good.
40% still looks normal comparing to his 27% last year in college my friend..
and im believer in his touch he touch hit even some short jumpshots so i believe he will be alright
You might want to go look on another site as most people ride him on this site.
I personally stated several times that I felt Drummond was grossly underrated as far as his draft position and where he would likely fall. The two players I felt were getting abused on boards were Drummond and Barnes. I thought they shouldve been top 3.
I clearly remember before the season started, there was a poster here that said no way in hell would he take Davis over Drummond. I dont recall if he ever changed his stance but once the season was done, Davis was the unanimous pick...and Drummond slid.
Whether we liked Drummond or Davis or Robinson...is irrelevant for the most part...but what is relevant is what I said over and over on this site for the past year. College and Pro success have absolutely nothing to do with each other. If they wouldve been allowed to come out of HS, Drummond wouldve been the top pick....and I think people forget that.
Why does Davis have a better upside? well, he is better now for one thing. What might Drummond do thats better than Davis? Maybe having a better physique?
Arguing that someones upside is higher because they are better now, is folly.
His physical presence has allowed him to make an immediate impact, but he's yet to expand his game much. DeAndre Jordan is a guy who I always compared him to, who I think hasn't reached his ceiling yet. I said I thought Drummond could be a 12/10/2 player at his peak. I think Jordan can be that player too. I don't think you can call me wrong yet, especially since I predicted him averaging almost exactly his season averages before the season started.
Seriously, how on Dec 22nd 2012 am I wrong? Did Andre Drummond get voted to his first All-Star team? I said he'd drop 6.9 ppg 6.5 rpg 1.5 bpg, it's not like I gave him no credit.
He, in actuality, is averaging 6.7 ppg 6.7 rpg and 1.6 bpg. I didn't leap on the Drummond bandwagon, but I don't know how you can look at his body of work, what I said and my predictions and say I'm wrong. I doubt anyone on this site predicted numbers closer to his actual production. I just may not think he's a 20/10 player going forward.
Joe, I think your predictions of his seasons stats are fine, impressive in how close they were actually (though the shooting % is low, doubt he gets below 50 as he seems to know his limitations). Think the whole DeAndre Jordan thing is getting old, though. Yes, we get it, he is fairly limited offensively. Still well ahead of where Jordan was at a similar stage. Just look at the rebounding stats as compared to Jordan:
I remember DeAndre Jordan getting completely destroyed and lit in his first few years. Drummond has taken his lumps, just nowhere near Jordan. Is he going to average 20/10? I think that is a monumental stretch. Could he put up numbers much better than what Jordan has managed given his minutes? Hard to say otherwise, man, considering where he is at right now. Just think his body and athleticism are on a different level (this is from the eye test as opposed to combine numbers).
This is the first season where DeAndre is pretty much an above average starting center, his 5th season. Now, Jordan averaged 7.1 and 7.2 in 25.6 mpg in his third season (on a 32-50 Clippers team). Drummond is at 6.7 and 6.7 in 18.6 mpg, as a rookie. The thing I do not get is the 12/10/2 thing, as his rebounding has clearly been fairly damn strong. Who is to say he could not be averaging 12-13 rpg down the line? Not to mention, he was a year younger than Jordan when he first entered the league.
I realize that a comparison to Jordan is not the worst thing in the world, just have been much more impressed with Drummond's early development than I was with Jordan's. As of late, Jordan is turning the corner and being much more productive, just think that Drummond had more ability at a similar stage and is much quicker laterally with potential to be much stronger physically. The one thing your prediction does not take into account is minutes. My feeling is, you felt Drummond would not be getting these numbers at the rate he actually is. If you look at his per minute stats, it is just hard for me or probably some of the others to agree with your 12/10/2 prediction for Drummond going forward. Drummond may not be Dwight Howard, but I think he could easily be above the production of Jordan by what he has shown thus far. He may not be 20/10, but 12/10 seems pretty low considering his early work.
I understand the DeAndre Jordan thing getting old, but there are only a certain amount of players to compare guys to and I always said when going with this comparison, as early as last Feb, that Jordan's best season isn't behind him. That's true, this season is easily his best, and yes I will admit Drummond is ahead of where Jordan is as a rookie.
I've always said Drummond is going to be used as a defender, and although the days of people comapring him to Amare seem to have come and gone, I believe that he'll find a nitch and his offense won't continue to develop that much. Look at defensive centers, not named Dwight in the past decade. Tyson Chandler has only averaged more than 12 ppg once ( this year) Marcus Camby twice etc. I realize it may be a bit of a low estimate, but it's not a slap in the face or anything unreasonable considering the production of many similar players over the last 10 years or so. A favorite of both of ours, Greg Oden, is a guy I looked at when evaluating Drummond. Oden was much superior offensively and was an 11 ppg player when he was healthy ( or as healthy as he got) during his 2nd year.
In me saying "I think he is a 12/10/2 player down the line, who defends and does little outside a dropstep" and he develops into a 13.5 ppg 11.5 rpg player and 2.3 bpg player who defends the rims and finishes lobs, am I really that far off?
I mean, if Joakim Noah can average 13.5 and 10.7 right now, with Drummond averaging a beastly amount of offensive rebounds, that makes a difference. I know you feel it may be nitpicking, just feel that you are nitpicking with the 12 and 12 when he is averaging 12.9 and 12.9 per 36 minutes. DeAndre's is only averaging near that this season as far as points go and not near there as far as rebounds.
Drummond's ability to stay out of foul trouble has been solid as well, not to mention that while his offensive skill set was nowhere near Oden, his level of conditioning was ahead of Greg I believe. The thing I see with Drummond is an eventual ability to play more minutes than a guy like Jordan, not to mention be more efficient in said minutes. When people made it seem like the best Greg Oden would do is 13/8 seemed crazy to me when he pretty much needed a little more than half a game to usually have a double-double.
Now, Drummond is not scoring at the clip Greg did, but his rebounding has been comparable. Yes, his numbers may taper off some over longer minutes, just definitely see an ability to not just be a good defensive center, but one of the better ones in the league. He obviously will have to put in a lot of work, just is encouraging to see the early work has been there. If you had put 13.5 and 11.5, I think that definitely would have made a difference. Seeing that Andre is a guy I can indeed see play 30-36 minutes per game in due time, not to mention was even ahead of Tyson Chandler as a rebounder, does he not have the potential for 15 points and 13 rebounds?
Either way, 15-13 or even 13.5-11.5 mean a lot more to me than the same old DeAndre Jordan thing, especially when Drummond is well ahead of where Jordan was his first couple seasons, not to mention Jordan is a guy who has averaged 10.5 and 10.6 per 36 for his career. Drummond was stronger, faster and more skilled than Jordan by quite a bit at the same period of time. I know you still have your reservations and he still has a ways to go, just know that 12-10 seemed like a low ball prediction. I know their are not many centers that reach those averages, you could say the same thing that their have not been many guys as raw as Drummond with his raw ability who have managed to make the impact he has in the minutes he has been given. To me, that is a good sign. He could hit a huge rookie wall, who knows, just have been pretty impressed in what I have seen from Drummond, not just in what the stat sheet says. I think Jordan's best years are in front of him, just still believe with what we have seen from Drummond, he could definitely be better and do it in a shorter time than it will have taken DeAndre.
I think when looking how a center produces offensively, has a lot to do with how good of a shot creator and finisher he is compared to his teammates. That is where I see Andre Drummond not stacking up, within the offensive scheme. At the most, he'll be a 4th option on the floor, and how much do most 4th option starters score? 10-12 ppg.
Joakim Noah is a 13.7 ppg scorer but he can shoot a 16 footer, hooks with the right and left hands, and he has the ball a lot because they run a lot of offensive through him in high low scenarios and at the top of the key.
Drummond is a great physical specimin, but he will really have to develop offensively to warrant the amount of shots needed to average 15 ppg, and he'll have to become a better free throw shooter, because the way he rebounds the ball offensively, he's going to get fouled a lot. It's not just he can't score so I'm low balling him 12 ppg. It's in what offense is he a 3rd option? In what offense do you look to Drummond to distribute in the high post?
I would be much more apt to conceding to him averaging 14 rpg during a great season than I would to him averaging 14 points during a great season. If I am indeed lowballing him, I think it's on the glass, not in the points collumn. It's hard to tell what team Detroit will continue to build, but Greg Monroe is the 1st option, Brandon Knight is probably the 2nd and I think they'll look to add another wing scorer going forward, because I continue to think most of Drummonds offense will come off pick and rolls lobs and offensive rebounds. I can't imagine a scenario, in which he is a 3rd option, and on most NBA teams, you need to be a 3rd option to average more than 12 ppg.
Than explain Dwight Howard. Come on, dude. He may not be Dwight Howard as an offensive option, but we are assuming he will grow. He is already averaging 13 ppg per 36, can he not get any more than that? In most circumstances, especially in big men, they do. Andy Verajao is averaging freaking 14 and 14, do not tell me that it is not possible for Andre Drummond to become atleast a third option. Last year, Verajao was at 10.8 and 11.5, to me, Drummond could get atleast that many rebounds and more points in his prime.
Yes, most of his offense will come off of garbage buckets, but he has been excellent at getting those buckets and has been getting them at a really high rate. Not to mention, are their going to be many centers with his size, length and athleticism? By my count, not in the least. Yes, he sucks at FT shooting, yet he has still managed to be averaging 6.7 ppg in 18.6 mpg. Tell me how many minutes you thought he would be playing when you had him at 6.5. Judging by your FG%, quite a few more than he is right now.
Think that you should maybe adjust your evaluation based on that, because while your rookie prediction might have been right, his efficiency and learning curve I think have far exceeded expectations. I believe even yours. He has size, his hands are not bad and his feet are great. He may never be a go-to scorer, but I think he has athleticism and size that those guys do not. He is, indeed, a freak athlete and at the very least has shown a willingness to do things to get better. To me, Andre could end up being a better rebounding version of a physical presence like Nene. Yes, he is not as skilled as Nene was offensively and will probably never be the free throw shooter, but the overwhelming athleticism and size are there. Think much more so than Jordan.
Will leave with this, Drummond is averaging 9.6 FGA per 36. Tyson Chandler has averaged 7 FGA per 36 for his career, DeAndre Jordan has averaged 6.9. It has always amazed me that Dwight Howard could never average more than 11.2 per 36 for his career and I do not know if Drummond can get around there. Either way, Drummond is managing to get FG attempts and shooting quite well. Now, would you rather have 2.3 fewer shots per game and a 61.6% FG or 2.3 more and 57.6%? Give me the latter, thank you. That is the difference between DeAndre Jordan's first two years and what Drummond has done currently, plus DeAndre shot awful from the line. I am guessing you looked it up, DeAndre Jordan was nowhere close to Drummond in lane agility. His standing reach being 4 inches more is a total joke and I would want to see it to believe it. To me, Drummond is much more of an offensive option than Jordan and will be much more imposing than even Chandler is right now.
He may not shoot the same high %, but he has atleast shown an ability to get shots at a still very high %. To me, that could definitely turn him into a third option. Who is to say they get a scoring wing? Will Brandon Knight be there forever? Will Andre not possibly go to another team? These are all legitimate questions and I believe pose legitimate flaws to the theory of your 12 and 10 ceiling theory. To me, this is you going off of the UConn Andre as opposed to the Pistons Andre. Let me tell you, I have seen quite a bit of growth and a reason to believe that he is a better center prospect than you believe. Of course things will need to happen. But, they do happen. Tell me you saw Andy Verajao doing this and than say otherwise. Granted, it is on a bad team, just feel Drummond can do these things on a good team, he has that type of potential. Early results have me optimistic, think that they should atleast make you reevaluate at least the 10 if not the 12. If he were putting up DeAndre Jordan #'s, I would agree with you, but he has not in my opinion.
You are right about the future, it's unknown, and who is to say he won't be on a bad squad when he is a vet, like Andy, who has played the part of a 2nd/3rd option when Waiters got injured, but I think the true difference here is your optimism versus my skepticism. In all actuality, he'll probably find himself somewhere in the middle, but as always, this is a good Drummond discussion, and I'm gonna be gone for the holidays so I'm going to throw in the towel here. Happy holidays, mikey, and if Drummond does ever hit 15/13 I'll buy a Drummond jersey and wear it on draft night. lol, have a good one man.
I know you are a skeptic, for a while I thought you might be in the right and do understand your skepticism on what Drummond brings to the table. Yet, at the same time, you like a guy like Meyers Leonard who made considerable change from his freshman year to sophomore year. What I will say is, has Drummond not done the same from his freshman season to his rookie season? His team is not great, though he seems to be a spark plug, has not been beat out physically very often and has much more awareness on the court.
When Aran gave Drummond a "7" at rebounding, definitely urged him to make it at least an 8 or 9. The fact was, Drummond was not a strong defensive rebounder at UConn. However, as an offensive rebounder, he was really solid. He has managed to translate that to the NBA with his substantial size and frame, while gaining awareness on the other side of the court as well. It seems he is taking coaching to heart and is willing to put in work to improve. If he maintains that same structure around him, than I could see him growing considerably beyond 12/10. Next year will be a better gauge after a full off-season with new expectations. What I will say is, his efficiency has to at the very least make you think that this kid could become more than you thought he might.
the thing is he can average 14p-12r-3.5b...
Also, when it came to Drummond and Deandre, I said that Andre's basement was a Deandre Jordan type of player and 'that he would have a Jordan type production as a freshman....
Look at Jordan's stats per 36 minutes last year, look exactly like Andre Drummond rookies stats per 36 minutes
I was really high on Drummonds but I can see why Davis went number one but Drummonds should have never dropped past pick 3.
I would have thought after people screwed up on the Favors, Cousins, etc picks that people would value a athletic big man like Drummonds. I am glad Detroit got him though because pairs up well next to Monroe.
Pistons may suck now but they have a promising future.
drummond will be a great player. he never had to develope any post moves in high school because of his size and athletisism. in college he got there 2 weeks before the season and did not start. he got to the nba unpolished, but he has the will to be great and clearly the physical skills. give him a year or two and people will forget all this negative talk about him.
His rebounding and shot blocking have been impressive.
Lets not go crazy he's not a bust but its early so lets not go crazy.
That being said the Raptors should've drafted him over Terrence Ross a SG how many wing men do they need. Guys like Davis, Bargnani don't seem to be the answer esp. at Center.
Not sure how the Pistons have a bright future they've been horrible for 4 years and nothing has changed this year either.
Pistons are a lottery team until they get some real scoring 24th in scoring for a reason.
We have some guy named Jonas Valanciunas you know
What's he done
I wouldn't say I was a hater but I wasn't a fan. So I'm having to eat my words. He did very little in college. So I was like why should anyone think it will be different in the pros. Now I think he basically wasn't trying in college. And maybe that makes sense. They weren't paying him in college so why give 100%. But he looks like a beast here in pros.
That said, he obviously has touch and coordination issues. If you can't shoot better than 40% from the free throw line for a season you have a problem. I strongly suspect that there are blind people out there that can shoot 40% from the free throw line. So people who think he is going to start hitting jumpers in games need to check themselves and get clued into reality. If he can't hit FTs he isn't going to hit jumpers. But who cares. He will probably get his FT up to 55% or thereabouts and that will be good enough. If can block shots, rebounds and finish lob passes, then that's good enough for me. He looks legit so far.
I think they all met at Steak n' Shake...but I'm not 100% sure, I'm not on the mailing list or anything