What about Gordon Haywoode makes him better than all the other small forwards in this draft?
I see what you're saying Sheltwon that players similar to Hayward have not succeeded in many cases in the NBA. But I cannot help but feel like Hayward can be a very good NBA player. He probably has the best handles of any of the SF's you listed above. He is a clutch player, he can shoot, and he is long which will help him on D. Intangibles are another thing that cannot be measured. He has a toughness that I never got from Dunleavy or Redick. He is much better all-around than Korver and Kapono. I like 8ths comparison to Mike Miller.
Like i said knicksfreak if i am wrong about this, I will be the first to admit but I have watched a lil of his Butler game and also some highlights and I has seen him in the drills. He will have his work cut out for him. He looks small and does not move like an NBA player. Also Mike Miller is not doing much in the NBA now but we will see. Someone calling me racist because I see like most people here has said is that he is a role player. Why draft a role player in the lottery of a strong draft.
i see Gordon Hayward as Hedo Turkoglu with more energy, big SF good ball handler good all around game, can pass, rebound, good penetration, nice shooter but also a fighter.
that is not a terrible comparison but on average European player are better than American skilled players. Also I am not so certain that Hayward will get the time to succeed because it took Turkoglu a while and he still can't guard. Maybe if Indiana takes Hayward they will give him time but I think it will be two years before he is in a decent 8 man rotation.
I think he is better than Kapono or Miller. He isn't afraid to shoot and can create his own shot a little unlike Miller, and he can handle the ball way better than Kapono. I am not saying he is a s good as Wes Johnson or Al-Farouq Aminu, but Hayward can handle the ball every bit as good as them. I don't think he will be a bust. I'm not saying he will be a great player, he will be a subpar defender and isn't a great slasher, but I have a hard time seeing him being not find a role in the NBA. He is not like Adam Morrison. He doesn't rely on his shot like Morrison as much, and he can finish around the rim. He shot 60% from inside the arc last year.
I like the Garcia comparison the most. If you remember Francisco Garcia in college, you'll see that they were nearly the exact same player at the time they declared for the draft. Garcia rose his stock a bunch leading Louisville to the Final 4 just like Hayward did too. Both Hayward and Garcia are decent ball-handlers who can pass pretty well and play as point-forwards at times. Both are kind of long and lean and mediocre athletes who aren't that strong. Both are/do struggle defensively because they aren't very quick and strong. I think that's better than the Mike Miller one because Miller is a much better overall talent than Hayward. He's a better ball-handler and scorer than him. Miller also is stronger than Hayward and even though Hayward is kind of a point-forward, Miller can see legit time at PG and SG more so than Hayward can.
The draft prospect most similar to Craig Brackins is Michael Washington.
Wesley Johnson--his age bugs me, but i wouldn't take Hayward over him
Paul George--i feel like he's going to be Joe Alexander with a 3-point shot...not a "good shooting" JA...just good at shooting from next to the hoop or beyond the arc...needs to learn how to play, which is kind of a big issue...very good potential though
Al- Farouq Aminu--offense worries me, but i'd take him above Hayward
Damion James--in the pondexter/james debate, i like pondexter better...
Devin Ebanks--seems like he might've been a year away from getting Taft'd..."potential" only gets you so far...
Stanley Robinson--freak athlete, offense? kind of the anti-hayward to me...
Quincy Pointdexter--scoring came almost exclusively near the hoop...(don't get me wrong, i love him in the late first...but no way i take him over hayward)
Luke Babbitt--stronger, not as good of a basketball player
Tyler Smith--getting kicked off your team tends to kill your stock...especially since they started playing a lot better after he got booted
Darrington Hobson--i follow UNM as closely as it's possible to do from WI (relatives down there), and i dont really think he's better at anything than hayward?
De Sean Butler(hurt)--umm......he blew out his knee?
Lazar Haywood--not much experience on the perimeter...
Charles Garcia--haven't watched him, but from what i've read he doesn't even project as a SF...
i guess the main difference between some of the top guys there and Hayward is potential...it seems to me that most guys drafted in the second half of the first round tend to wind up closer to their floor than their ceiling, so i'd take a chance on him there...also, i think another part of whether or not people like him is if they think his 3-point shooting will be more like his freshman year or sophomore year...i'd tend to say it'll be more like his freshman year since he won't be the star...however, while i'm a huge Hayward fan, i wouldn't be too happy if my team drafted him at 10...if the Bucks draft him at 15 i'll be very happy, as that's typically where you're drafting role players...
So Hayward is this years great white hype???
There are a whole bunch of skilled player black and white that do not make the NBA because it is dominated by top athletes. Also Hayward arms are not that long. There are actually short for his height. Bractkins is nothing like Hayward. Bractkins is a power forward and can move quicker than Hayward. He can also jump and has longer arms for his height which is taller. Delfino is better than Hayward so why would Milwaukee who also has this other Euro forward take him when they really need a power forward to play next to Bogut. Hayward could possibly go early 20's. Also Kapono and Miller were both stats wise better than Hayward but Hayward got hype after Butler went to the big game. He should have waited a year because in next year's draft he could be go early as 10 pick and it not look bad because there are fewer forwards. This hype stuff happens all the time and people get excited just to get heartbroken. Kevin Love was a different story. I watched him play in part of a UCLA game and highlights and you can tell he could tell he make it in the NBA. He also developed a NBA caliber skill in rebounding to offset his defense and some of his early offensive short comings. His full court passing is sick. Love also had legit NBA size.
like i said, at 15 teams tend to be drafting role players, not surefire starters...if Udoh, Patterson or Monroe is on the board, i'd like them...but i'd be very happy with a guy who seems very likely to be a shooting spark off the bench at the very least...especially if those 3 are off the board
You're underrating Gordon Hayward. You haven't seen him play enough, so I don't know how you have so much to say about his game.
Hayward isn't a finished product. He's only 20 years old... Not to mention he had a very late growth spurt in between his junior and senior years of high school. He grew like five inches. He's a late bloomer and still growing into his body. He went from being a point guard to a combo forward in less than a couple of years. He's still growing into his game. We're talking about a kid who wasn't heavily recruited and accepted a scholarship to Butler in order to get his degree in Engineering, NOT make it to the NBA. It all just sort of happened. My point is... Though he's not an elite athlete, he's still only scratching the surface of how good he can be.
He's not ready for the NBA... Not to contribute consistently. He's not strong enough. However, he does have the frame to add more strength and weight. He can get 220 lbs on that frame. It'll take him at least a season to be a *consistent* contributor in the NBA.
He's more athletic than you're giving him credit for. He doesn't jump out of the gym, but were not talking about a non-athletic dude here. He has very good body control and decent hops. He picks and chooses his spots. I'm not saying this just because he's white, but... He does have very good court sense/IQ. The kid just makes good decisions on the court and just has a toughness to him.
He's not just a shooter. He's not going to be the next Kyle Korver or Jason Kapono. Those players are not only better shooters... They're ONLY shooters. He's an all-around player. He can not only put the ball on the floor, he's comfortable handling it. He's good, not great creating his own shot of the dribble. That's an area he'll need to improve. He'll never be THAT player in the NBA though... He'll just need to be respectable and keep the defense honest.
There are things you can't measure... He's a winner. His high school team came out of nowhere and won the 4A State Title his senior year. We all know what he and Butler accomplished this season. The dude just has very good intangibles. He's never going to be a star, but he has a chance to be a very good player.
he's &$#%#&@! overrated!!!!I don't know why he is in first rounds in mocks!! He can't defense at next level, he's poor athlete...average shooter.
He's no worse of an athlete than Mike Dunleavy Jr., Hedo Turkoglu, Mike Miller or Danilo Gallinari. He's not going to shut anybody down defensively, but he competes. That'll definitely be the main thing for him in the NBA though... If he can't stop dribble penetration, he won't see a lot of minutes.
He's definitely not an average shooter though. In the NBA, he won't be the main guy, so he'll see plenty of open looks.
yeah...he isn't worse athlete than these guys but he is worse shooter than they!
I have not seen a lot of him that is accurate but everything you said about him i know about. I do research on people before I open my mouth. I am also not a fanboy. I will knock any player regardless of what team they play for, what race they are. I don't care. If you are not NBA material you are not NBA material. You have actually agreed with a lot of my points but twisted them to make it sound like you said something intelligent. Dude is 6'8" with a wingspan short than his height. he has an all around game. He is very fundamental sound but he does not have an NBA body or NBA athleticism. He has a chance to be in the NBA like anybody else coming out. There is nothing about his game that makes me say NBA. Most European players who are in the 6'10" and up range can do everything he can and you have seen their turn out. Just to clear something up with you because I know you are probably seeing my pick and assuming. I did not start playing ball much until like 6th or 7th grade when I live in the suburbs. I learned a lot of my game from playing with white people that lived in the suburbs as well as looking at player and studying stuff in books. I am well aware of all that fundamental stuff and playing together as a team because early on I sucked but was athletic and the white dudes would pick me up and we pick some team more talented than us just because we played hard and together as a team. In the NBA the coaches coach playing as team and they have athletes at their disposal and they have mostly the best of the best. You have to know the game to be in the NBA. There are lots of athletes that dont make it in the NBA. Hayward may be nice and all and knows all this fundamental stuff but it may not translate and I have watched him play and move and I know white guys I have balled with that move better than he does. He plays with heart but he lacks NBA explosiveness and all i can see him is as a role player. Late first round , early second rd. There should be no talk of him being lottery at all. It sound really stupid. I want there to be a great white player in the NBA too because it is the whole underdog thing and I can relate but it will not be Hayward.
I believe before some of you on here are so quick to judge people you need to know their background.
Sheltwon said, “rtbt is you want to call me racist then do some.”
First, I did NOT call you a racist. I said the thread you started was racist. The only reason I didn’t call you a racist is because I don’t know you.
Sheltwon said,” I stated it openly that Indiana is looking at this kid because he is white. That is a true statement. If you believe differently you need to prove that I am wrong”
OK, per LLperez, in 7 drafts, Larry Bird only drafted one white player in the first round.
Per LLperez, in 7 drafts, Larry Bird only drafted one white player in the second round. Hmmmmmm.
The above statements are FACTS, not opinions!
Sheltwon, you compared the following guys with Hayward:
Both Jason Kapono and Kyle Korver are one dimensional stand alone jump shooters. There is nothing in their game that even resembles Gordon Hayward.
Chase Budinger is an elite athlete who is also essentially a one dimensional jump shooter. The only difference with Budinger is his incredible leaping ability. He has very little in common with Gordon Hayward, who is a good, but not a great leaper, but a guy with a much more versatile style.
The only reason you used those guys as a comparison is because they’re white. Tell me that isn’t racist?
Gordon Hayward is a very good athlete with a terrific all around game. He can shoot, he drives to the basket using both his strong and weak hand, and I think he was the leading rebounder at Butler. You can’t get much more well rounded than that. His game has nothing in common with Kapono, Korver, Reddick, Budinger, Love, or any of the other 150 white guys you brought up.
This kind of thinking is racist, pure and simple. It doesn’t mean you personally are a racist, but you cannot think outside of the box.
Jason Kapono is actually more well rounder than a stand alone shooter. You are right you did not call me racist but indirectly calling my post racist that is based on my opinion is calling me racist. Also Larry Bird has made trades to get 3 white players. Also if there is no white player available then he would have to take a black player. Who was available when he drafted those black players. It is true. Everyone but you and one other person does not believe this. I was not really comparing them as skill wise but to me they are better NBA player than Hayward will be. They have a unique skill that trumps what Hayward can do. You cant honest tell me that based on skill set alone that Hayward to Indiana at 10 has nothing to do with him being white. No black player with his athletic ability and short coming would even be talked about as going 10 to Indiana. Rbt you are really blind if you cant see the obvious. That is okay life goes on. I actually compared Hayward to black player as well. If you want to call me out you need to read my posts fully and not skim them. It makes you come to this disagreement with holes to your argument.
Sheltwon, you're amazing. There are approximately 450 players in the NBA, including lots of 6 ft 8, 6 ft 9 inch athletic small forwards whom you can realistically compare to Hayward. [By the way, you can't even spell his name correctly]
With 450 names to choose from, you come up with a group of guys who have nothing in common with Hayward. Your list happens to be all white and then you use them as a comparison and obviously don't care if they play like Hayward, as long as long as they're white. That makes your thread racist!
Here's another example that will hopefully make you understand what you're doing. I'm going to talk about a hypothetical hospital where the racial make up of doctors is 80% white and 20% black. A new doctor is being recruited by the hospital who happens to be black. After interviewing him, the doctors are sitting in the board room discussing this new applicant.
In the course of the discussion, they compare the new applicant to several other doctors who currently work at the hospital, and guess what, every name they bring up just happens to be a black physician just like the new applicant. You would think that with 80% of the doctors in the hospital being white, that some white physicians would be in the mix.
That's exactly what you and many others do when discussing white players. Even though the NBA is 80% black, the list of comparisons is almost always all white. You're not alone Sheltwon, many people do that and I don't think they are racists. Look at KnicksFreak earlier in this thread who compared Hayward with 5 white guys, one of whom was JJ Reddick. And it goes the other way, black players are almost always compared only with black guys.
Sheltwon, what amazes me is the fact that you deny your own racist comments about why Indiana drafts players. You insist upon calling Bird a racist, despite clear and obvious proof that the man is anything but. He's the guy who invited Magic into his home to meet his family and have lunch. Bird is the same guy who drafted a large number of black players and a very tiny number of white players.
Bird said the NBA needs more white players but that doesn't make him a racist. It's a statement I happen to agree with. It's no different than saying The National Hockey League would benefit from the injection of more black players.
If you look at his stats, you will see he is kind of similar to James posey, Who's Black
PPG:15.5 RPG:8.2 APG:1.7 3p%(In two seasons in Butler)34.1 FG%46.4 FT:82.9
James Posey in 03-04 Season
PPG:13.7 RPG:4.9 APG:1.5 3p%:38.6 FG:47.8 FT:83
I think the reason he has so much hype is becuz hes a mystery. He's from a mid major school and won the player of the year in his league. He played pretty well on the national stage and was part of the cinderella Butler run the the national championship game. I mean there are certain players out there people jus root for to make it and i think gordon hayward is one of them. He has sum nice skillz
You're going off of what you've read and heard... I'm going off of what I've seen in person for over three years. I'm not going off of a couple of games that I've seen on television or what I've read on websites. I've had a chance to watch Hayward up close and personal in the high school, AAU, college and workout setting.
I'm not a fan boy, but I know my Indianapolis area players. Plus Hayward works out with 100% Hoops, a company I've volunteered with, so I've gotten to see him work out alongside players like Eric Gordon, Jeff Teague, Courtney Lee, Robert Vaden and MANY other players that have gone to play in college and overseas.
Hayward wasn't being talked about on this site until I brought him up. I've been saying for nearly a year that he'd be a first round pick if he entered the draft. As a matter of fact... Some of the information in his nbadraft.net scouting report is from me. The dude who wrote it asked about him in a thread and I told him. He put that in the scouting report... Damn near word for word.
You talk about his wingspan like it's considerably shorter than his height. First... He's 6' 6.75" without shoes. He's wingspan is 6' 7.75". That's nothing special, but it's not anything to think he's going to fail over lol. Then you talk about him not having an NBA body... Like he's the first player to not have an NBA body lol. He'll get bigger and stronger. He has the frame to put on more weight and muscle. He's only 20 years old.
I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post... You sound ignorant to be honest with you.
We all have opinions and we will see. We will see if i was right. I am done arguing with people. If you think I am anything that I am not that is your opinion. I am done wasting my time.
Hayward has a great skill set. Unlike the other guys you named he was a guard in high school until a late growth spirt allowed him to play the smallforward position. The other prospects dnt have the same skills he posseses dispute having similar size