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What about Gordon Haywoode makes him better than all the other small forwards in this draft?

sheltwon3
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What about Gordon Haywoode makes him better than all the other small forwards in this draft?

Am I missing something? The only team I can see drafting him is Indiana. All the other team that could consider him has other needs. Why would you draft a player that is not a need unless he was just a can't miss prospect. I feel like Jason Kapono, Kyle Korver, Mike Dunleavy, and Chase Budinger are all better than him. Most of these players I have mention can be had if you really wanted to get them and Indiana already has Dunleavy. Larry Bird was awed at Hansbrough too. The reason Indiana fans are not showing up is because the team is not good. They drafted in the lottery last year and did not get much better because they did not go for best available player maybe best available white player but that is another subject for another time.


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there also not exciting to

there also not exciting to watch

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wow

This post is the most blatantly racist thing I’ve ever seen on this site. It’s akin to Isaiah Thomas saying if Bird was black he’d just be another player. Dunleavy had fellow lottery pick Jay Williams, first rounder Dantay Jones, NBA All Star Carlos Boozer, and Second round picks Chris Duhon and Daniel Ewing on his final four team with him. Who did Gordan have? As for the Pacers needing a center what about Roy Hibbert? He will be an All Star the minute the Pacers get rid of the idiot O’Brien. Also Josh McRoberts(the Pacers youngest player) is a good power forward when he gets to play. Let’s be honest Xavier Henry isn’t any better than the former Jay Hawk the Pacers have in Rush. Dantay Jones is a waste of space. Foster has never played hard but for some reason the Pacers hold on to him. Granger shoots 42% from the field and 36% from the 3. He’s a good Pippen to someone’s Jordan but we don’t have him yet. As for Ed Davis what has he really done? He was the second leading scorer at 12.9 ppg and led the team in rebounding at 9.2 on a rather average UNC team. They didn’t make the tourney. NIT please. Lost to Mid Major Dayton. Look I am a true blue Pacer fan ;which I doubt any of you are; I was a Pacer fan when we had the telethons to save the team. I bought season tickets to help keep the team here. I was a fan when we were winning ABA tittles. If we’re going to lose I’d rather watch Hoosiers lose than players from else where. Let’s stop bashing Hayward and wait and see what he does. How many of you laughed when the Mavs traded Michigan star Robert Tractor Trailer for Dirk? Where is Robert? Let’s draft players not potential players.

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hayward

Every year, there seems to be a nice White prospect that everyone looks at for his "high basketball IQ" I haven't seen too many of these under- athletic, "high IQ" guys become stars that warrant a lottery pick. The only ones that come to mind recently are:... just Brad Miller, for now. There have been WAAYYY more busts than successes when it comes to drafting these "high IQ" guys. While I like Hayward's game, I also liked Christian Laetner's, JJ Redick's, Adam Morrison's.... et cetera. These guys have a hard time adjusting to the league because of the speed and size. It's way easier to perfect a jumpshot than to get faster and more athletic.

I wouldn't take Hayward too early as I only see him as a Kyle Korver at best kind of guy. And honestly, Spot up shooting 3 men are plentiful. Think about it, role players are easy to come by in free agency, Stars are MUCH harder. If I were Indiana, I would take a chance to draft a potential star rather than playing it safe and drafting a guy who can be easily replaced in free agency for less than the mid-level exception.

Mr.Knick 32
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If Indiana takes Hayward at

If Indiana takes Hayward at 10, Larry Bird should be FIRED.

sheltwon3
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This is not a legit order

This is just to show most of the small forwards that have been talked about and you can compare each one to Haywood and it would have to have your head scratching as to why he is seen as a first rounder and some of these guys I have mentioned arent.

Wesley Johnson
Paul George
Al- Farouq Aminu
Damion James
Devin Eubanks
Stanley Robinson
Quincy Pointdexter
Luke Babbitt
Gordon Haywood
Tyler Smith
Darrington Hobson
De Sean Butler(hurt)
Lazar Haywood
Charles Garcia

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The thing is this guy is a

The thing is this guy is a good rebounder, can bring it to the hoop, and is an underrated defender.

Definitely not a top ten worthy pick, and is too much like Troy Murphy so no way i would take him, he should be a decent player though.

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I have not seen much of

I have not seen much of Haywood but I still dont think he was on Korver Level as far as shooting goes. If he was Korver like shooting Butler would have won the NCAA championship. I actually think he may be able to put the ball on the deck better than Korver but he is not the shooter Korver is.

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Troy Murphy was bigger when

Troy Murphy was bigger when he came in. He is a solid guy but he has trouble even now in the league. Haywood does not look like he can put on that much weight without it totally making him slower. Morrison was a good rebounder and scorer in college too. So was Alexander who is very athletic something Haywood and Morrison are not. JJ Redick who I believe would have been a poor man Ray Allen on another team has taken some time to adjust to the NBA game and he is a dead eye shooter and he has decent quickness. He is just a role player now though.

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Hayward

Guys, its Gordon Hayward, not Haywood. I am also a bit nervous about his game.

sheltwon3
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My bad I misspell a lot of

My bad I misspell a lot of players names.

McWinning
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Hayward is a much better

Haywood is a much better rebounder than Morrison was. Plus hes still young, hes definitely not gonna be a superstar but hes a solid player.

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JJ re-dick. Lol its Reddick.

JJ re-dick. Lol its Reddick.

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In this draft and if he does

In this draft and if he does not fit a need does he need to be drafted first round. I have him late first round in my Mock because Indiana will probably buy a pick to grab him because they know if they draft him too high there will be backlash especially when it would appear too obvious that they are just drafting white players.

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as i pointed out on the other

as i pointed out on the other thread, in 7 years of running the indiana pacers, Tyler hansbrough is the only white player larry bird has ever drafted in the first round. He also only drafted 1 white player in the second round. 2 white guys in 7 years and only 1 1st rounder is nothing out of the ordinary. Keep in mind to everyone saying hansbrough was a wasted pick, he played solid basketball but was injured He certainly looked better then guys like gerald henderson, austin daye, earl clark and byron mullens who all went around him.

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It's because he was the high

It's because he was the high profiled guy on a team that made it to the national championship game. If they would've lost to syracuse, he probably wouldn't be in this draft, lets keep it real man. I don't know why scouts place such a high premium on the leading a team far thing. It means very little, and is only a small portion in the grand scheme of projecting draft picks. I like him as a player, but he really should've exhausted his eligibility to be in a better position long term. But can't blame the kid 4 putting his name in if he's going to be a top 17 or 20 pick. Everyone else is being drafted on potential and upside, so the argument can be made that he has a lot of that also.

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Other than him being white,

Other than him being white, of course.. i think it's bc he could be a nice point-forward. Not too many of those @ the 3, in this draft.

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Since everyone is comparing

Since everyone is comparing him to a white player, I will stick with the trend and say that he is Mike Miller.. Honestly that is exactly how I see him. A guy that can do everything well but nothing great.. Not super quick but can get his shot anytime he wants.. Not a great defender but can hold his own.. Not a great shooter but cant be left open...

If I were comparing him to a black player he would be Josh Howard..

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I find it really annoying

I find it really annoying that every time a white player that can shoot the ball is compare as the next Larry Bird. Hayward won't be a star in the league but he would be a good role player but if I'm the Pacers why would I draft a role player when I can get someone similar in free agency or something?

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Most of the black players I

Most of the black players I could compare him to are not in the league. Josh Howard is athletic and can defend on an NBA level. I dont see Haywood doing that. Also Indiana traded for a bunch of white players that did not help their team out as much. How can you say Hansbrough played better than players that did not even get minutes. I already know dude is a polished player but outside of being an energy guy, his skill set is not overly impressive. I take someone like Nick Collison over him. Collison can play spot minutes a the 5. Hansbrough is not a bad player but it was kind of a reach at where indiana picked with a lot of more talented guys at positions they need available. Hanbrough could not get many minutes behind Murphy and that guy from duke. I understand Murphy does get hurt a lot but they could have taken a point guard last year and gotten a big man this year and they would be good. Everyone knew this draft would have a lot of talent big men in it and it was known that there were a lot of talent point guards in last years draft. As for as draft picks Indiana has really sucked. Most of their good pick ups were just a guy too good falling to them. Granger should never have fallen like that and Hibbet was said to be going higher. If they don't start improving their picks they will have the worst team in the East which is the lowest of lows. Think about what team in the East can you see being worst than Indiana.

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Howard isnt that great of an

Howard isnt that great of an athlete.. He can defend but I see Hayward doing to the same.. He is a pretty good athlete but nothing great..

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I take it you are calling me

I take it you are calling me a racist, I dont care who you are. I am not knocking this player for being white but really he is not that good. He is a good college player but he lacks the athleticism to do what he did in college in the NBA. This happens all the time and it is sad that people do not realize this. What you are saying is I am hating on him because he is white. I have defended Cole Aldrich, JJ Reddick and countless white players that actually had skills and abilities that should translate to the NBA without too much problem. Haywood falls into the good in college but bad in the NBA category. A first rounder should not automatically be a role player. That is dumb on the part of any GM. Issiah drafted David Lee. Issiah does not fall in love with every player that reminds him of themselves. Larry Bird actually said that he maybe reached for white players because he thought it was good for the game. You can look up the interview. I just find it insane that he is allowed to be the Gm this long and is running that team into the grown based on his bias.

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Howard before he got hurt was

Howard before he got hurt was an above average athlete. I have watched Howard play a lot also he has a longer wingspan than Haywood. You must be think about the hurt Howard because I remember him in his All Star years. The closer black player I can think of right off the back would be James Jones but Hayward may rebound at a better clip than Jones.

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Isnt Jones just a shooter??

Isnt Jones just a shooter?? I mean I am thinking of Howard when he was playing with the Mavs a few years ago...

I see Hayward as a guy that can do a little bit of everything.. Possibly Garcia from the Kings..

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I am offended some white guy

I offended some white guy who a year from now when see how bad Hayward does in the NBA and make excused like the ones they make for Morrison. I think Morrison can be a solid bk up though but where he was picked and the thing is everyone wanted him. I remember the same thing about Luke Jackson. It is funny how people forget about those players and act like I am out of line. I am the same person who says that BJ Mullens will be a NBA player and he is white and other people say i am wrong. Mullens has NBA athleticism and can shoot pretty well and he is 7 foot with decent size. He is not Robert Swift. If a black player was being overhyped I would put them on blast too. Right now the only player that seems to be overhyped beyond what I see is Haywood. I dont hear about any workouts where he is just moving up or doing stuff that is shocking people. Tomorrow we may see. I heard about Larry Bird basically drooling over this dude come on now. Don't get offended because you think you have to protect or support you race. This is not right. Dirk Nowitzski is the closest thing to Larry Bird not Hayward.

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I can see Garcia skill wise

I can see Garcia skill wise but he does not move like Garcia or have the same wingspan and Garcia is a role player who can play spot starter minutes because his lack of size hurts him on defense. I think he was drafted first round but in a weaker draft and he fit a need for the Kings at the time. Hayward is not a power forward and there is not a great need for small forwards. If he goes lottery it better be team with multiple picks.

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Bird: NBA 'a black man's game'

KNIGHTSTOWN, Ind. -- Larry Bird says he wants to see more white superstars in the NBA, but the legendary former Celtic has also revealed that nothing in basketball bothered him more than being guarded by another white player.

Bird made the comments during an ESPN special that will air Thursday at 7 p.m. ET featuring Bird's longtime rival, Magic Johnson, and rookies LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony. The one-hour discussion is called "Two on Two."

ESPN host Jim Gray asked Bird whether the NBA lacks enough white superstars.

"Well, I think so," said Bird, the Indiana Pacers' president of basketball operations. "You know, when I played, you had me and Kevin [McHale] and some others throughout the league. I think it's good for a fan base because, as we all know, the majority of the fans are white America. And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited. But it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American."

Johnson, a Lakers part owner, quickly added: "We need some more LBs -- Larry Birds. ... Larry Bird, you see, can go into any neighborhood. When you say 'Larry Bird,' black people know who he is, Hispanics, whites, and they give him the respect."

Cleveland's James and Denver's Anthony, both 19, were also asked about race during the sitdown, which took place in the tiny gym used as Hickory High's homecourt in the movie "Hoosiers."

Asked by Gray if race is an issue in the NBA, James said: "I don't think so. I think the fans look at the game, [they're] not looking at the race. [They're] looking who can play basketball. Or who's athletic. ... When you [were] a kid and you used to go outside, it didn't matter who was the best player in the league. If Bird was my favorite player, I'm out shooting threes. ... If Magic was my [favorite] player, I'm out there throwing my best passes. It's not the race issue. If you can play the game of basketball, you know fans are gonna love you."

Said Anthony: "Race is not an issue. Where I'm from, people love the Yao Mings, the Dirks, the Pejas. They love them guys. I don't think race is an issue right now."

Yet later in the discussion, Bird described being guarded by another white in his prime as "disrespect."

"The one thing that always bothered me when I played in the NBA was I really got irritated when they put a white guy on me," Bird said. "I still don't understand why. A white guy would come out (and) I would always ask him: 'What, do you have a problem with your coach? Did your coach do this to you?' And he'd go, 'No,' and I'd say, 'Come on, you got a white guy coming out here to guard me; you got no chance.' ... For some reason, that always bothered me when I was playing against a white guy.

"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black," Bird added. "I just didn't want a white guy guarding me. Because it's disrespect to my game."

Said Magic: "His game, you see, Larry Bird was the only [white] guy that was mentioned in the barbershop. ...'Cause that's where all the talking in our community is, the barbershop or on the playground."

Bird has declined to comment further, according to a Pacers spokesman, and NBA commissioner David Stern said he would reserve comment until seeing the entire interview.

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Agreed.. I think that he can

Agreed.. I think that he can be that type of player.. A serviceable guy that can provide a little bit of everything.. Wont turn the ball over, Garcia, can hit an open shot, Garcia, can move the ball and grab a few rebounds, Garcia...

He wont be great but he will be decent..

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8th we are on the same page

8th we are on the same page but should he be mentioned as a lottery pick based on that. I had no problems with Hayward coming out and getting drafted late first round but when I heard talk about him maybe getting drafted earlier, I was like no and then people starting hyping him up like he was not just a role player. I have watched him move when he plays. He can do a lot of things well and has a nice shot but I don't ever see him starting. Maybe 8 7 years ago it would be different but now ever team is athletic at most of their perimeter positions and it would be hard for him out there. It would be hard for a coach to have him out there and know he is a defensive liability. As good as a shooter Korver is and i was super impressed with that game he had against the Lakers. If Korver were better on defense people would think he was Reggie Miller because he could shoot like that a lot more than he has shown but he comes off the bench. This is to the guy that thinks this post is to knock race. No it isnt. Good player deserve credit. When people booed Lee during that draft, I actually knew of David Lee's game which he has really improved on and I thought it was a good pick and a steal that late. I dont see how Hayward game will translate cept as a role player and role player should not be drafted early in a deep draft or you should even hear people hyping up a role player.

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LOL......I hope everyone that

LOL......I hope everyone that say certain players should'nt be taken here or there..Look back at their predictions at the end of the season..I remember back in 2003..People wanted to hang Pat Riley for selecting a guy name Dwayne Wade..They said he was too short to play shooting guard and he couldn't shoot a jumper to save his life..They wanted Miami to take T.J Ford or Chris Kamen...Becuz at the time the Heat had glaring holes at those positions..I'd agree that Hayward is no Larry Bird but he's no Kapono or Korver either..He's much more versatile then those guys...I think if he gets with the right team & get some good coaching can be a star in this league..I love his toughness...He wasn't afraid to take the ball to the basket..He's a good passer,playmaker & rebounder..If you watch him play he's always involved in almost every play..He didn't put up gaudy numbers becuz he's a little too unselfish right now..Like in the Duke game i keep expecting him to takeover..But he unselfishly defered to his less talented teammates...

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I still think Mike Miller..

I still think Mike Miller.. Miller was ROY in an NBA that was lacking LBJ, Melo, and almost any other great SF in the NBA right now.. Like you said, Hayward would have been special 10 years ago.. Miller is nothing more than a role player now.. He starts because he can shoot and he is versatile and he has been around so long he understands the league.. I see that happening here too. He could start on a team that has a great SG and a great PF.. Say the Heat if they get Amare or Bosh and keep Wade... A team in need of a guy that can sink open shots and not turn the ball over..

Not more than a role player and could work his way to be a starter...

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Rudeboy i agree he is more

Rudeboy i agree he is more versatile but he can not shoot on their level and like them he can't defend in the NBA and just like them he will have trouble getting his shot off. I have made my mock draft and I tend to be right about most player i talk about. I actually though Morrison and Luke Jackson would be better and that is why I am very skeptical about white players who are not athletic that put up good number in college because a lot times it does not translate over. This happens to African American players as well but the thing is solid fundamental African American players dont even get attention compared to their athletic counterparts unless they are tall. You have people knocking Greg Monroe because he only has average athleticism. Jason Williams who is white coming in had super athleticism and moved smoothly with the ball even though defense would be his trouble as well and i knew it would be an NBA player. Some players you can look at and you can feel it. If Hayward becomes anything but a solid role player worthy of his top 2nd round late 1st pick, I will admit i am wrong. I doubt this will happen though.

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Also another thing De' Sean

Also another thing De' Sean Butler was said to be a definite 2nd round pick until he showed stuff in the NCAA tourney to maybe be a 1st round in the teens to late 2nd. That was they hype until he got hurt and now probably will not get drafted.

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I get your point but bad team

I get your point but bad team because Heat basketball is all about defense. Mike Beasley is looking like an average player because of this. I keep telling people the same thing happened to Jamal Mashburn who once average 24 or so points and only average 13 as a Heat player. Beasley could go to a more offense minded team and get 20 and 9 now and play some defense. His stock is actually better to other teams than it is the heat but still other team will never admit this though as they set up crappy deals to get him.

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James Jones and Jason Kapono

James Jones and Jason Kapono could not get consistent minutes from the Heat.

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Nah... Kapono was vital when

Nah... Kapono was vital when they won a championship.. He hit some huge shots.. Jones isnt that good anyway.. I think he could take some of QRich's minutes.

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I did not say he did not play

I did not say he did not play 8th but they let him go because he only played spot minutes mainly when they had Shaq or some one to open up the floor for shooters. Kapono is a nice shooter. Jones and Kapono are similiar cept Kapono can shoot better and Jones is a better defender/ rebounder. I am no say Jones can rebound and his defense is decent in moments.

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No no no.. I meant that

No no no.. I meant that Hayward could take some of QRich's minutes... Not Jones.. He is old and replaceable..

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I'm not a huge Hayward fan...

I'm not a huge Hayward fan... He has a decent all-around game, can do a little of everything but I don't see him being a starter in the NBA ever. He'll be a SF that comes off the bench for some spot minutes here and there--at best becoming a rotation guy off the bench.

I'm not entirely sure who to compare him to, to be honest, I just know from what I've seen I wouldn't take him before pick 20....

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?

I'm white but it's not racist if it is the truth. White people aren't as athletic and don't succeed as much, like Bird said. There are exceptions like Chris Anderson is very athletic for his height. But Hayward has talent, he is not just a pure shooter. I agree he might be like a Mike Miller, but that is not such a bad thing for a tenth pick. Mike Miller was not bad in his prime. He could be like Dunleavy too, who was not bad until injuries plagued his career. But he is pretty athletic for being a white guy, still not athletic for the NBA, but not horrible. But I would not take him 10th, maybe 15th earliest but probably around 20th.

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That was my whole point.

That was my whole point. Somehow it turned into a I am racist thing. If dude could play it would not be an issue. You have people talking about him being lottery and I am like there is no way. I watched this guy play too and he is not terrible but I can see him being able to do the same things in the NBA. It would shock me if he could. I had him going early 2nd round to OKC in my first mock. I amended that to like 28 to memphis but mempish will probably trade the pick to Indiana for something. Larry Bird seems to interested in Hayward to not eventually get him.

sheltwon3
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The NBA has changed though

The NBA has changed though and in this draft Mike Miller would maybe be drafted in the teens. Miller was better in his first few years stat wise than he is now. He has been on team where they needed his scoring and still he averaged worst numbers. Hayward would be a top 10 pick 5 or 6 years ago but now who could he defend. Utah starts Wesley Mathews because he can defend and Korver who is better offensively is on the bench. All the teams that are offensively minded that he could get away with not being a good defender are set at that position. Small forward is one of the easier positions to get someone at because most of that position consists of athletes are 3 point specialist. The other side of that is most have to know how to defend because at lot of team now have star 2's and 3's. Durant against Hayward would not be fair. Paul Pierce against Hayward would not be fair. Stephen Jackson against Hayward would not be fair. Even Hedo Turkolu against Hayward may not be fair but Hayward could at least score on Turkolu maybe.

sheltwon3
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Let's say Indiana take him.

Let's say Indiana take him. Granger is a small forward and Indiana's best player. How many minutes would Hayward get and also I saw his frame and he does not look like he could add weight without it slowing him down. He does not seem to have a banger's personality so power forward in the NBA seem far fetched. I do have him as the 28 pick in my Mock but i find it funny for those who has him as high as number 10. I actually like Babbitt over Hayward. I think you can at least post Babbitt but it would appear that extra weight makes him extra slow.

rtbt
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Sheltwon Claims This Thread is Not Racist

Sheltwon claims this isn't a racist thread. But who is he comparing Hayward with?

Jason Kapono
Kyle Korver
Mike Dunleavy
Chase Budinger

And of course JJ Redick was somehow thrown into the mix, and there are probably other white guys I missed. Comparing Hayward with Jason Kapono, Kyle Korver or Chase Budinger is absurd. Other than the fact they're white, there's nothing in their game that resembles Hayward . Tell me those comparisons aren't racist.

He then he brings up Hansbrough's name and somehow implies Indiana wants Hayward because he's white

Llperez pointed out the fallacy of Sheltwon's argument because in Larry Bird's 7 year tenure as the Indiana Pacers GM, Tyler Hansbrough is the only white player Bird drafted in the first round. He also only drafted 1 white player in the second round during that 7 year time frame.

Some guys never allow facts to change their biased perception of reality.

Any objective observer will note that Gordon Hayward is athletic, talented, and once he gets a couple of years under his belt, he will be an outstanding player. There's probably another stereotype at play here and that is underrating Hayward's athleticism because he's white.

scoutguru also made a great point when he said Hayward's draft status is elevated because Butler went to the NCAA final game. I think he needs another year of college ball, but Hayward's status is high because of that NCAA tournament. So from a financial point of view, he had to come out this year.

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Francisco Garcia is a near

Francisco Garcia is a near perfect comparison for Gordon Hayward. I like that comparison alot.

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The next Joe Alexander.

The next Joe Alexander.

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Craig Brackins

Reminds me of Hayward some. They're roughly the same size with good athleticism, but are versatile and like to play on the perimeter. I'd say Brackins is better in the post, but Hayward is better on the wing.

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rtbt is you want to call me

rtbt is you want to call me racist then do some. I take it you are just sensitive about the truth. hayward is not the same as Craig Bracktins. Joe Alexander was very athletic. hayward isnt.

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They certainly aren't the

They certainly aren't the same player, but out of the other guys in the draft this year I think Brackins matches Hayward the most closely.

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I did not imply this rbt I

I did not imply this rbt I stated it openly that Indiana is looking at this kid because he is white. That is a true statement. If you believe differently you need to prove that I am wrong. Larry Bird has been known and has talked about trying to get more white player in the NBA for good of fans. Do you homework. Sometimes the truth hurts.

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Most the people on here has

Most the people on here has said that Hayward is not a lottery talent yet he is being hyped as one come on now. His athleticism is not great at all. His skill set is pretty good but that is in college. He has yet to show many anything that says it will translate over.

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