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Weight lifting/Vertical help

SubZero
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Weight lifting/Vertical help

I'm pretty sure I've posted something like this a year or 2 ago, but I'm gonna ask again anyway

First of all, I'm 17 going into college, 6' 3" and 170 lbs. I've been working out for 2 and a half months and have only gained around 6 pounds. My dad says my body isn't ready to gain weight yet, but I don't think that's completely true and I'm maybe not doing everything I need to do to gain muscle mass. I work out 5-6 times a week and I've been taking whey protein for about a month

And about my athleticism, I found out a couple months ago that I have flat feet, and that has hindered my vertical jump and my speed. Right now, I run a 4.8 40 yard and-this is an estimation-around a 19" vertical (low vert always kills your confidence as a ball player). I have a program that I do for vert but it doesn't do anything for flexibility or stability in my core which is essential to vertical leaping. I was wondering if any of yall have been through this kind of thing, and what yall did to help.

Much appreciated


OrangeBall
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What kind of goal are you

What kind of goal are you looking for, are you looking to gain just mass or are you looking into building explosive strength?

SubZero
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Well I want to get muscular

Well I want to get muscular because I'm very skinny. I've been getting a little bigger but it feels like I've hit a wall the past couple weeks. My lower body though, I want explosiveness. Like vertical leap, quickness, foot speed, etc. I've been going for it for years but certain circumstances have got in my way...and I have to get to throwing it down before intramurals lol

Hale
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A couple tips... For your

A couple tips...

For your lower body do a lot of squats (normal, one leg, one leg bodyweight) and deadlifts. Those are the best ways to lift and also increase your vertical. As far as overall muscle, find a routine that consistantly gets you in the gym at least 3 times a week with a high weight (70%-100% of your max) and low reps (no more then 12 and usually 8 or less). Always do 3+ sets of all the major muscle groups.

When I hit a plateau I personally do this:

Say I am working on my bench and I plateau around 185. I try for awhile and just can't improve it. What I'll do is put 200 on the bar (with a spotter obviously) and just try it the next few times I go to the gym until I can get it. It doesn't usually take that long and it works (for me anyway).

Lebron's Hairline
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It's kind of pricy but you

It's kind of pricy but you should invest in shoes that make you walk on your front feet and build your leg strength, my friend invested in some and wore it everywhere and we teased him because he looked funny but the first day of tryouts he had a monster dunk on a fastbreak(he's 6'2 170). Your vertical is only 19'? You need some more calf strength because Im 6'0 and a sturdy 185 pounds but I have a 27 inch vertical and I have flat feet also

Throwback Mike
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Jump manual

I can really relate to what you're saying. I have very flat feet, but have always been fairly athletic despite that--about average I'd say. But I'm 20 and have never really been pleased with my leaping ability. I'm 6'6" and can barely dunk. I'm only really able to dunk legitimately when I can palm a ball easily--which is not the majority of the time. A lot of this has to do with the fact that my wingspan is very short for my height (about 6'3"). Nonetheless, I know I should be able to dunk easily, so I began looking into ways to achieve this. I'm doing the jump manual vertical training program right now. I've been on it for about a month and a half and have been very pleased with the results. I had always been almost strictly a one foot, on the run jumper, but I can now dunk off two feet with a gather step and one hand and am getting pretty close to getting two feet, two hands down. I've also been drinking protein shakes for the same period of time and have gained 10-15 pounds. I only weighed between 175 and 180 before and now weigh 190. The jump manual is fairly expensive, but with a little online investigation you could get your hands on it for free.

SubZero
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That's actually the workout

That's actually the workout plan I've been doing. I did it before basketball workouts started last year and actually pulled off my first dunk, until I get hurt and my coach screwed me over with his crappy workout plan........but I just feel like there's more to it that I'm not doing and that would help me a lot

josephgoode
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hey

sent u a message man

OrangeBall
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Try this when your doing your

Try this when your doing your calves. Instead of doing your normal 6-8 heavy sets or 10-15 sets do sets of 30 and do 3 sets of that 1 shoulder width, 1 close and 1 wide. Continue doing squats and make sure you are staying on your heels. Lunges keep your back leg elevated for extra depth.

frogman
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If you struggle to put on

If you struggle to put on weight, buy something like maltodextrin carbohydrates to have with it. Or buy a weight gainer but they are effing expensive. And take whatever you eat now per day and add a meal or 2 somewhere into your day.

And it seems you were just born unathletic, for 17 year old that works out as much as you do, 19 inch vertical is pretty terrible sorry lol. You can work on it and improve a bit but not much you can do.

Tongue-Out-Like-23
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Genetics. Lift all you want,

Genetics.

Lift all you want, some people are just naturally Kevin Durants and others are LeBron James.

jiggawhat
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Totally false. Kevin Durant

Totally false. Kevin Durant never stepped foot in a weight room in college, how is he going to get big?

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can build muscles and lift. Some will be better than others, but anyone can make real, tangible progress on their body if they just try.

Sewok15
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The keyword in the sentence

The keyword in the sentence above is naturally....take some roids.

Tongue-Out-Like-23
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And that's EXACTLY why I said

And that's EXACTLY why I said "naturally" lmao

HotSnot
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If your 40 time is 4.8 there

If your 40 time is 4.8 there is ZERO excuse for a 19inch vert. This tells me that you have NO CLUE how to jump efficiently/effectivly. Your technique is garbage and I don't even have to see a vid to know it. Your vert should be atleast 30 with a 4.8 time. Watch some youtube vids of great ball jumpers. Really study them. Also find a calorie calculator online. Working out 5-6 days a week at your age burns an incredible amount of fuel. Bascially, you'll need to be constantly eating to put on weight. Unless your on roids, most people can put on 10-12 pounds of Lean muscle a YEAR. If you try to gain the weight/size too fast, a portion of it is certain to be fat. So if you put on 25 pounds in six months, more then half that number will be chunk...unless you were malnourished before you started eating right. Even people who eat all the time can be malnourished and it kills muscle mass. Properly nourish the same dudes and their bodies just suck it all up while they get jacked. People who are overly pale likely have some deficiency in their diet.

Aside from that... check the forum history. Quit being so lazy. These topics have been posted to death.

scbe2223
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Damn dude that was brutal. We

Damn dude that was brutal. We can't all be star athletes like you

Hale
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He has a couple good points

He has a couple good points but he just went about saying it too aggressively with a couple mean-spirited remarks. There really shouldn't be anyway you can only jump 19 inches at 17, especially if you work out and run a 4.8. That's very weird. But with the right training that can go up pretty quickly, so it's not an issue. I'm sure the OP will have nice results from reading some of the stuff on here and increase his vert/uscle in no time.

HotSnot
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Yeah, your right, that was a

Yeah, your right, that was a bit harsh.

I just get the impression the young guy wants to be a decent jumper, but he doesn't actually jump. A 4.8 40 time is respectable. You can't be fat and out of shape and run that time. I can/have been quite overweight and still jumped higher then 19 just from technique alone. Its not a question of being a star athlete. I'm really not. I have no natural gifts at all, but I worked my ass off intelligently to get what I wanted. Anyone can do it.

His post reads like, "I wanna throw a 90 MPH fastball. I workout 5-6 days a week and I'm trying to put on weight but I'm only throwing 45 mph right now." Well, if your throwing only 45mph, your problem is not working out or needing to put on weight. Your problem is you don't know how to throw. Most dudes can hit 75-80 mph on just technique and reps, having never picked up a dumbbell in their lives. Practice throwing and your speed will pick up.

On the bright side, if the poster works out less, eats more food and for god sakes, practice's jumping, he will be successful! I'm 100% sure that at 6ft3, 170, with a 4.8 40 time this guy could be dunking well in only 30 days. I'm positive he's the type who could put on 8-12 inches in 30 days by just training technique alone. He is thin but has enough muscle to get it done. Perhaps flexibility is an issue but that's also correctable enough in that 30 days.

Come back when you've plateau'd at 30-32 and then read the forums.

Just go out and do it.

JoeWolf1
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He may be harsh, but HotSnot

He may be harsh, but HotSnot is one of the most knowledgable guys on this site when it comes to weight training. The only thing I can add, is jump all the time. Like he was talking about working on technique, do box hops, do back board touches, do standing broad jump. Work every muscle that helps you jump and you'll improve.

SubZero
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I really do appreciate your

I really do appreciate your feedback man, and trust me, I know my technique is off. I've been working on fixing it. But I play basketball almost everyday and I'm always jumping, so it's not like I never work on it and constantly live in the weight room. I spend a good 2-3 hours most days on the court

HotSnot
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2-3 hours a day in the Gym is

2-3 hours a day in the Gym is ALOT when your trying to improve Maximum jumps. Like all the jump programs out there, you can definitly jump higher to a certain point by volume training, however its Quality not Quantity of your jumps that count. 10-15 maximum jumps a session (2-3 times a week at your age) is what most people have in them and technique counts just as much as effort. Think of Nate Robison in the dunk contest a few years back when he was trying to hit the eastbay off the bounce. He kept trying and trying and after about 7-8 jumps he was out of gas...you could see his jumps get lower. So he switched to an easier dunk to get up a score. You should be warmed up, but well rested. Setting PB's takes an incredible amount of force, body control and technique. Imagine your performing bench press and trying to achieve a 300 max lift. There's no way in hell your going to get to 300 by benching EVERY day. You need rest. Muscle soreness means a PB would be impossible. If your never sore it means you rarely give it your all when jumping. Its very hard to improve anything when your not giving it your all.

Trying jumping as hard as you do when your running your 4.8, 40 time.

SubZero
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Yeah I see what you're

Yeah I see what you're saying...and I didn't mean I was jumping the whole time, I meant I get in and shoot and dribble everyday, just to tell you that I'm active everyday

SubZero
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Haha I don't get my feelings

Haha I don't get my feelings hurt over the internet that easily. And that's why I said I don't know if I'm not doing something I need to do, because I'm much faster compared to my jumping.

Also, I recorded it today and it's almost 25", the last measurement was from about 6 months ago and I didn't think I'd improved

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Increase your caloric intake!!

Whilst genetic do have an impact on your muscular and skeletal development, it is in no way limiting you from gaining muscle mass and explosiveness.

What you have to do is increase your caloric intake. Specifically, carbohydrates and proteins. Carbs and proteins offer 4 calories per gram, whilst fat is 9 cals per gram. Eating lean meats and CLEAN carbohydrates (from vegetables, oats, breads) and not simple carbs (sugars) will significantly impact your physique. Protein is your friend! Now what I can reccomend is supplements are not entirely necessary, they just make it easier (easy to prepare, consume, and offer some nutritional benefits scarcely found in regular foods). As far as supps go, just stick with a creatine monohydrate and a whey protein.

Just be sure to increase your caloric intake! IT CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH. In order to gain muscle mass, you need to have a caloric surplus. Eating a clean diet with veg, good carbs and protein won't do anything if you don't consume enough of it. Eating at McDonald's for every meal would be more beneficial than doing that, jsut to put things in perspective. It is all about the CALORIES, but it is much more beneficialto consume good cals than bad cals.

As for you workout, I would try something along these lines. I played intercollegiate basketball in the NAIA and was on 2 national tourney teams. This is by far the most effective I used to gain mass and athleticism.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/dougs-4-day-split-workout.html

Good luck with it all! As a fellow skinny dude I know how hard and frustrating it can be, but without this knowledge it doesn't particularly matter how hard you work. You need these foundations to gain weight.


Mikez
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When I wasn't lazy I would do

When I wasn't lazy I would do squats with weights, first you do 5 slow, then 5 fast, then 5 where you leap out of your squat, then find a step and stand half on it, the back half of your foot should be off of it, now push down with your toes lifting your heel, do this fast about 20-30 times and make sure a seat is close by cause you won't be able to walk effectivly for 5 minutes.

after doing this for like 3 days I increased by vert by 6 inches.

TheBigEasy
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It´s hard to say from here

It´s hard to say from here why you don´t pack any muscles as you didn´t have put your workout schedule in your post.

For me five to six workouts per week seems a bit much (but again that is without any knowledge of your routine). Of course you´re a lot younger than I am (I´m 32), so you´ll also recover a lot faster than I will.

I recommend visiting the T nation website (www.tnation.com) for some good beginner workouts. Always stick to the big basic lifts and gradually progress, so the plateau won´t be reached to soon and you´ll put the least stress on your joints and ligaments.

I had the most result when I was your age with starting three times a week with a full body workout comprised out of the big lifts (Rows, Deadlifts, Squats, Presses) with some additional armwork (just for the ego). I then moved to a five body part split during the week, with a three day on, two day off, two day on roster. This had good results, but regarding it really depends on your genetics how much muscle you will pack on. But nevertheless dedication to your program and good nutrition (lean meat, lots of proteins) are key. Besides this program, I also used some interval sprintwork twice a week.

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can you list the type of

can you list the type of workouts you do, I'm a trainer at a gym so I may be able to help

SubZero
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I have 4 different workouts

I have 4 different workouts for upper body, one for leg strength and another for plyo; the leg workouts came from The Jump Manual like was mentioned above.

On chest, I do bench, incline, and decline press, cable crosses, dumbbell flys supine, and machine flys

On biceps/triceps: (any 4 of these for biceps:) plate curls, curl bar curls, hammer curls, corkscrew curls, static arm curls, standard dumbell curls; tricep pulldowns, 24's, and dumbbell pullbacks

On shoulders: dumbbell military press, serratus pulldowns, and shoulder flys

On back: bent over pulls, lat pull downs, cable pulls and y cable pulls, cable rows, pullups/chinups, and posterior deltoid flys

TallmanNYC
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Your Dad is right that partly

Your Dad is right that partly the problem is that your body isn't ready to put on muscle yet. You are probably still growing and will gain another inch or maybe two.

Hotsnot got in your face a bit. I suspect your estime of a 19" is really low. I assume that is a no-step vertical if it is that low. For dunking you need an approach and I'm sure you jump higher than 19" with an approach. But as Hotsnot said, once you get into the full speed approach then technique plays a significant role.

I found that the platform strength training shoes worked a bit, but I didn't see any miracle gains. They strengthen your calves and stretch them at the same time. My legs have always been strong from lots of jump training done playing basketball and volleyball. But I've also always been a really bad leaper. Bad genetics. My Dad was a pretty good basketball player in college but also couldn't jump at all. My hops did improve in college and, interestingly, I maxed out my jump in my late 20s. I was doing heavy leg presses then and my legs had gotten stronger even then they were in college. It wasn't until my mid-20s that I could easily gain muscle and weight.

At 170 your body isn't even close to fully developed. More strength will come and with it better hops (as long as you stay injury free, which isn't the easiest thing in the world).

JoeWolf1
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Yeah, a common misconception

Yeah, a common misconception is that you need to add weight to add strength. That's false, a lot to do with strength is muscle memory and your muslces becoming more efficient doing repeated movements. Muscle mass will increase strength, but it's only part of the equation.

Even if you have a difficult time gaining muscle mass, you can still get stronger and more explosive by repeating the jumping movement. That is the reason I mentioned that, I just wanted to give you some reasoning behind why.

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I would be careful about

I would be careful about lifting too much with you upper body, if you're trying to make a team or play well during the season you don't want to throw your shot off.

Although 6'3 / 170 is skinny, it's really not that skinny for 17. That's about where I was at but I had about a 34" running vertical at my absolute peak. My advice to you is to work on sprints, interval training and simply working on leaping. You don't want to wear yourself out though. Stay away from distance running. I think something like P90X or Insanity might work well for you since they involve building core strength and getting leaner and stronger without bulking up too much. There is also quite a bit of jump training involved that well help you quite a bit.

I'm old as dirt now with a bum knee, so I'm pretty much worthless nowadays, but back when I was younger I was in shape from basketball practice and my own routine in the evenings. Basketball practice was sprints and tons of leaping exercises:

Sprints - 16 times across the width of the court in a minute

Baseline to baseline in 10 seconds

Baseline to freethrow to Baseline to Halfcourt to Baseline to Far freethrow to Baseline to Far Baseline to Baseline in 30 seconds

Jumping - toss the ball off the back board, jump as high as you can to ge the board, come down, jump back up and put it in, take it out of the net, dribble to the freethrow, turn and repeat

jump rope (heavy ropes are good too) for maybe 5 minutes before you do anything

jump rope on one leg

jump rope getting two rotations with the rope on each jump

My routine

pushups every evening. go for as many as you can in a row and keep trying to increase the number.

situps every evening. same deal as above.

squats (no weight) same deal as above.

calf-raises on the stairs (one leg at a time) same as above

My thing is pretty old school now, so I'd really try to do one the fitness programs to help out.

theguru23
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the truth to your body and vertical leap

It sounds like you have an ectomorph body type .. meaning "hard gainer". Genetics do play a major part in this, but you can still expect to see the results you want. Remember that this process takes a lot of time and dedication... YEARS of work. It seems like you are doing everything right. Just up your caloric intake with all clean foods... salads fish chicken water etc....Before you know it you will look like a machine......

Vertical leap wise..... The key is to work on your CORE... CORE CORE CORE.....If your knees can take it then do deep squats dead lifts and other heavy compound movements.... Last, make sure you are still running and working on your feet to keep your agility.....

FastAndFurious
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The reason your probably not

The reason your probably not gaining much weight is because your not eating enough, you have to eat like crazy man, 3 protein shakes a day, on top of 4-5 small meals, if you do that and lift heavy I guarantee you will gain weight, and will gain it fast.

I was the same as you, I went from 6'1 155 pounds to 6'1 174 pounds in 4 months just lifting heavy and eating crazy....it didn't affect my athletic ability at all, it only helped because I was getting stronger.....which brings me to my next point....what is your body type? Do you have big broad shoulders? Narrow Shoulders?

That has alot to do with it, my body type is made for me to be able to put on weight and not lose an ounce of athleticism,because even when I was skinny my shoulders were always big,wide and broad and coaches always used to tell me my frame can carry weight easily , you might hinder yourself if you put on too much weight, IF your body type isn't meant for you to carry extra weight.

But looking buff isn't everything it's cracked up to be, I've played against strong looking guys who were weak as tissue, and i've played against skinny guys who are strong as an ox.

My advice to you would be get you a journal and record your lifts, each time you do an weight lifting excersie and you can lift it more than 8 reps, go higher in weight, and keep going like that, your strength gain will be crazy if you record it and stay consistent guarantee it.

Far as getting faster,quicker,more explosive.....jump rope,do alot of core excersises, squats,if the gym you train at has an machine caled hip abductions do that as well. People don't know alot of your athletic ability has to do with your core and hips as well.

SubZero
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My shoulders are pretty

My shoulders are pretty broad. My dad's and my older brother's shoulders are both pretty narrow but mine have always been broad.

And yeah I know what you mean about being big not being everything, I've pushed around people bigger than me too. It's just kind of a self-help thing, you know? Like I've been skinny all my life and I've always gotten comments about it so I just want to get bigger for me

theguru23
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fastandfurious

^exactly.... great post

TheBigEasy
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Indeed Fastandfurious, I also

Indeed Fastandfurious, I also think that that´s the way to go. To increase explosiveness I also would recommend Olympic Lifts, but only when you have a solid base and not as a starting point.

But still if you don´t give us more information on your background, training history, injury past, nutrition journals etc. it´s hard to give any real good recommendations.

Personally I also liked to cycle some pure strength programs through my normal routine (5x5 etc.).

David Stern a.k...
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My advise would be eat at

My advise would be eat at least 5 times aday. You don't have to eat till you're full every time, but just try not to walk around hungry.

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As far as overall basketball

As far as overall basketball conditioning I recomend that you buy the book "Complete Conditioning for Basketball" written by the National Basketball Conditioning Coaches Association. It has a 12 week off season conditioning program that works strength, conditioning, core, plyometrics, and agility. It's a very rigorous program, but if you're serious of improving your overall athletisicsm, I believe this is the best program. You can find this book on Amazon for as low as $12 (used).

However, though athletisicsm is obviously important, the most important thing is to work ON YOUR GAME. I was 6'2 and a strong 190 lbs when I played, but no matter how hard I worked on my body...my speed, quickness, vertical, etc. was always below average. However I worked so hard on my skills (shooting, ball handling, passing, floaters, off the backboard shots, etc.) that I still played college ball and played in my country's semi pro league. Straight line speed and quickness are not the only weapon at your disposal, having multiple offensive weapons is your biggest asset. Plus changing speeds is sometimes a more effective weapon in terms of creating offense than simply trying to blow by your opponent.

Concentrate on becoming the best PLAYER you can be, instead of the best athlete. Cause from what I read, it seems that like me, genetics are just not on your side. So if you're trully serious about the game. I recomend that you spend more time working on your game on the court than in the gym lifting weights.

Good luck

joecheck88
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I'm 24. 5'8" 180. Have about

I'm 24. 5'8" 180. Have about a 30" vert and 34" running jump. Still can't dunk. Lol. I do jump pretty high though and I noticed a big difference in it after working my and hard for a few weeks. Also, I tend to jump higher when I stretch really well. Also, in between games at the y, I give a few jumps as high as I can. I usually don't get to jump my highest in game so these are important.

It may be hard for you to gain weight at your age. I noticed my body really maturing around 19 or 20. I would focus on getting stronger and not weighing much more. Also, like said before, you are going to have to eat quite a bit. Your protein shakes are good but get some eggs, fish and red meat in your diet as well. Especially after lifting.

Idk if this is good advice but a guy at work does this an it helped my bench. When you start to plateau, you put heavy weight on. Spotter needed. Say you can bench 185 and that's it. Put 225 on, pick it up and let it down as slow as you can 2 or 3 times. I would only do this maybe once a week but you will get sore. Also after doing these, put low weight on like 135. Bring bar to your cheat, pause, them explode. Do it as many times as you can. And do it once more after a rest. It helped get my max to 250 at one point.

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