We discussed this before on NBADraft.net. Instead of building a team incrementally, Donnie Walsh gambled everything on securing Wade, Bosch, or LeBron during the big Free Agent fiasco and he failed. Walsh then incredibly traded away possibly their biggest asset, a walking Double Double in David Lee.
What do you guys think of Donnie Walsh and his big Free Agent gamble? What do you forecast in the NY future?
i think they failed. I mean now i hear knicks fans talking about next summer they'll get melo. But i think they are just grassping for things. Amare is an improvement over lee, but not greatly. Not enough to deal all those picks. Is amare gonna lead them to 50+ wins in the east? Is Gallo or anthony randolph ready to be the second best player on a contender? I dont see it.
Lilperez only time will tell, I think they have succeed though. They have a pretty good team and they have a lot of cap flexibility. They have young talent and can possibly get Melo. They could also get some other young players by taking on contracts that are big but not to long. Boston was able to trade to get their big 3 and it was because they had a lot of young talent. They drafted well and Rondo and Perkins because solid pieces. I dont see how the Knicks can't do this. I think building a team the way the Knicks are doing and the way the OKC is doing is smart. OKC and Boston were the only teams to really scare the Lakers. Miami will actually have trouble getting guys to come and take less but next year they will have their mid level exception. Miami is not that far ahead of New York if next season they get Melo or another max guy. Also T Mac could return to New York or go Lakers or Miami.
Also if Knicks sign Kevin Prichard, things will definitely get better.
sheltwon, how can you compare the knicks building with the way the thunder are building? The knicks gave up picks ignored the draft and allowed their best player to walk, which is pretty much the exact opposite of how the thunder built their team through the draft. And of course they COULD get some guys, but how can you say they have succeeded becasue they have cap space? The whole point was to get players this summer, not cap space. SO far, they have not done that. ANd Amare is an all-star, not a franchise changing superstar.
lilperez who is on the Knicks roster now that you are aware of.
Knicks has a lot of young and promising talent.
They did not draft all these guys but they acquired it.
I am saying OKC starting with young talented players and a few talented veterans and then kind of grew from there
Randolph is young and has a higher ceiling than Durant but I doubt he reaches it
Gallinari is a better perimeter player than Durant but Durant is better is all other aspects
both of these guys are young and talented and could become all stars
Bill Walker is healthy weighs less and was a top 10 pick before injuries caused him to move down and if last year when he was overweight is any indication on what he can do then watch out
Douglas who showed signs of being a good player last year is a year older and wiser. I rememer when Westbrook made that huge jump in his second year but he got more opportunity his first year that Douglas did not get and Westbrook came in very raw but talented.
Wilson Chandler is like Jeff Green in that he is very versatile
Jerome Jordan is like Mullens in that he is kind of a project but is very talented and should be a solid bk up or 20 to 25 minute player in 2 years
Ronny Turiaf is like a mix of Ibaka and Collison
Azubuike is like Sefalossa and Kyle Weaver
Also Knicks may get Livingston who played some time for OKC and play pretty well but played even better in Washington last year when OKC let him go due to minute shortage or something
Obviously it didn't work out for the Knicks and now they have to make the best out of it and that's probably letting Galinari and Randolph develop and hoping they can lure and/or draft a promissing player next years because I doubt they will win much this season.
I really like the Knicks but they gambled too much and lost quite a bit.
Amare is the only guy that does not really fit into what OKC is doing but he is young at 27 28 and I remember OKC getting Kristic who was older but not on the talent level as Amare to help them in the post.
fresh taste what did they lose that can not easily be replace or have been replaced.
im aware of everyone on their roster. ANd if you think randolph has more potential then durant and that gallo is a better perimter player then durant, then i think you are smoking something. Look at those names you mentioned, that is not a 50 win team. Can they still make moves? Sure, but they were putting everything in this summers basket and i think any knicks fan who was honest would admit this was not what they were hoping for. I think teams should build like OKC and get young players through the draft and keep their top young talent. NY did the exact opposite and traded away all their draft picks and let their top young player walk and now they are left with hoping Amare stays healthy and they can still make more moves.
Gallinari would outshoot Durant and I am Durant fan. Gallinari is dead eye shooter and Durant is a great
shooter and scorer
You are obviously a hype dude and base what you think off of it but if there was shooting contest from the perimeter Gallo would win maybe not by much and I did not say Gallo was a better player.
What is Randolph's ceiling. Tell me now
I said he may never reach it but
Randolph is a 7 foot player who can handle the rock, he can shoot it a bit but his shot is not consitent right now. he can block shots, score in the paint but his lack of size hurt him there and right now he is longer and more athletic than Durant.
What are you basing that Durant has a higher ceiling. Durant is closer to his ceiling right now than Randolph but as soon as Randolph catches up you will see
right now if they sign all their 2nd round picks they have 12 players and right now they have no one on their team older than 28 and I think if they add a decent point guard they have a 40 win team and still have cap space to sign another max guy.
This is not the homerun that everyone wanted but to build a team the right way it is better to take a little time and not overspend or rely too much or top players. New York next season can keep all their young talent and add Melo or whomever.
first off i agree gallo is maybe a better shooter. But thats not what you said. You said he is a better perimter player. There are a ton of things that come into being a better perimter player like taking guys off the dribble, ability to create and make shots in one on one situations. If all you meant was he can shoot better, then you shouldnt have said he is a better perimiter player.
As for randoplh, im not saying he doesnt have a high cieling, but its not higher then durants. Durant was arguably a top 5 player and an mvp candidate last season. He is a 30ppg scorer and go to guy. Randoplh isnt gonna becmoe that.
my bad Lilperez I did write that incorrectly I should have said he is better from the perimeter than Durant.
That is my fault.
What are you basing your ceiling on just scoring. Randolph can do more things than Durant can. He also has better raw athleticism and length that exceed Durants.
Look we both know what Durants or Randolph's ceiling is so to say one guys has a higher one can be argued both ways. They are different type of players but Randolph is more versatile.
My thought process is that if Randolph reaches a decent level on all of his skills and talents he could average 25 pts 12 rb 3 blks 2 stl 5 or 6 assists and be able to play anywhere on the floor on offense or defense.
Durant is great scorer but I am not sure how good of a defender he will ever be or passer. He may be pretty good at both but Randolph has a natural ability to do both thing that Durant will have to work hard on just like Randolph has to work hard to become a better shooter from the perimeter because he can score and take people off the dribble now but he is not consistent.
I couldn't agree more with Llperez22. The strategy of Donnie Walsh failed and now they're grasping at straws. Somebody said the Knicks aren't far behind Miami. Please, on what planet?
I'm still trying to figure out why they were so intent on giving up David Lee. People talk about Randolph's potential but David Lee is already there. At a relatively young age, Lee is a walking double double. Do you know how hard it is to find guys like that? And then you give him up for potential?
Although I think Donnie Walsh did some good things after taking over from Isiah, overall I would have to give him a grade of "C".
The only bright spot for the Knick's immediate future is the fact they only have one way to go and that is up.
i think walsh did alright with all things considering...ny always demands a big name and there was nothing but promises for the last two years that knicks were landing lebron, his hands were tied had to sign amare....boozer isnt the name and fits their style even worse, atleast amare played in dantoni's system before but i feel mcdyess part two coming around...they got a top notch talent in randolph, as mentioned, lots of potential but not consistent yet and a few role pieces to better fill out their bench of D-leaguers...when ure in NY these are the types of things u just have to live with
Gallo won't out shoot durant if he had to face the defense that durant faces. Gallo can prob hit more open shots which is what he gets more then durant because he's not as good so defenses don't pay as much attention to him. If artest was checking him like he checked durant gallo would be lucky to get double figures. As far as the knicks they did a pretty good job. I never thought they would get bosh bron or Wade and all they had to do is get a lil better which I think they did. They are quite winners as some have said but they aren't losers. The expectations was just wayyy to high for some and they still are for the ones thinking they are getting melo next year. This shows that players aren't as impressed with the night life and the Mecca like some fans on here are
Wait, heaven help me I am defending the Knicks. LeBron was never going to go to New York. Everyone outside New York and ESPN knew that. Oh well, the Knicks are a better team now than when they finished the season. They are young. Amare is 27, Turiaf 27, Azubuike 26, Douglas 24, Rautins 23, Chandler 23, Walker 22, Landry 22, Gallinari 21, and Randolph will turn 21 next week. Curry is going to be out of the picture either being traded or waived shortly but he is also just 27. They are also inexpensive as they are still $11 million under this year's cap and depending on how the rest of the summer plays out will have wiggle room next summer as well. They don't have a point guard to succcessfully run D'Antoni's system, but the summer has just started. We will see what happens to Ridnour, Calderon, Mo Williams, Felton, Augustin, Conley, etc. That will determine whether they are a 30 win team or a 40 win team. They aren't building through the draft, but it isn't like they are old, expensive, and bad. My prediction is that they end up with Ridnour and Michael Redd's expiring contract in a S&T. It wouldn't make them a contender, but it would give them an arsenal of offensive threats up and down their roster.
both teams, why would they look to get ridnour and MIchael redd in a S&T when they can just sign ridnour outright?
They can, but I think that Milwaukee wants to get rid of Redd and get something to show for it. Packaging Redd and Ridnour could get them a trade exception and maybe another young body. The Knicks could send Milwaukee Curry (who had an up-and-down relationship with Skiles but they could also send $3 million to help cover the cost of waiving him), either Turiaf or Azubuike, and an $11 million trade exception and come away with two starters, one of whom will be a monster expiring deal. With Maggette, Salmons, Delfino, and CDR, I think Milwaukee is going to be shopping Redd and he would make sense for a lot of teams. The Knicks and Bulls would seem to be the most feasible options because of their ability to absorb some of his money without sending matching contracts.
i guess i just dont see why the knicks would do that unless they thought redd was gonna bounce back and being a big contributor.
No one on the Knicks is close to as good as Kevin Durant, this is very true. But the Knicks are still in a far better situation than they have been in a very long time. Its a young team that will have a chance to show its young assets while maintaining a good cap situation. Eddy Curry's contract will be one of the most sought after this season, if even for a small team looking to cut money with the lockout looming. Its one of the biggest contracts coming off the books and gives the Knicks a large bargaining chip.
As for Randolph, yes you trade for potential, and for BODIES! This is how they fill out their roster with young players at a decent price. You trade Lee because Randolph and Turiaf are better low post defenders and shot blockers than David lee right now. Lee is an excellent rebounder, a very very good ball handler and passer, and a versitile scorer, but with the signing of Amar'e, he's expendable. Trust me, I think I've seen more david Lee than anyone on this site, as painful as most of those games were. Randolph has excellent potential (As a matter of fact, wasnt he one of the most popular players on this site after the summer league in terms of young talent? What happened?) and Turiaf is an effective 6 fouls. The Jerome James pick up is a good move too for a 2-3 string center, or a D-Leaguer.
But the point is, the Knicks have been steadily improving the team, their assets (which were close to nonexistant post Isiah.), and their cap situation. I don't know who's grasping for straws, or saying the Knicks will be close to the Heat. The Heat could win 65+ games, if the Knicks win half that, its a 10 game improvement. I've said it before, the Knicks are missing that primary star, and thats far from an easy thing to get. But they have put themselves in a position be championship contenders WHEN EVER THEY GET A SUPERSTAR by having a young cast of talented role players and a legit secondary player. If you added Nash to this team, I think the would be better than the Suns were last year, for example. They are a premier perimeter player from being a 50 win team. Thats a position the Knicks havent been in for a long time. So again, the offseason is a C+/B-, as they are still one player away from being a great team with the youth to last for a good number of years and the potential to get better.
Its not a success, but rest assured its not a failure. Did they get the most coveted free agent in sports history? No they failed, not once, but three time because Bosh was the first choice no doubt. But they have cap flexibilty, something they haven't had since 1996. They are not paralyzed in free agency like they were for the past 14 years since they signed Allan Houston. They may or may not have as many draft picks in a couple of years, but because of the cap situation this year, and next year because Curry's bad contract finally comes off the books, the Knicks so have a future, wether they get a prized point guard and Carmelo or not. We all know that cap room = flexability...and the Knicks have the most cap right now, and they may have the most next year. I know as a Knick fan I'm tired of hearing next year, but its better to say it when the team is not in the luxury tax hole.
I'll tell you what happened. The regular season. Which is what I was tryna tell some of the summer leauge bandwagon jumpers. It's just summer leauge. Wayy below the regular season. Even below college because it's less orginized. More like open gym with a couple of plays
Well that may be true for peoples opinions, but when you adjust his numbers to the same MPG as Durant, Randolph averaged 20 pts, 11rebs, and 2.7 blks. Not saying he'll put up those numbers, as his propensity to foul limits his minutes. But it does show he produced when he played, especially at the center position where he could use his quickness and length to out quick everyone he played against. He's still 20, 21 in a week, with a ton of talent.
NArc, you're right, but I personally wasn't think Lebron or bust. I was praying that if the Knicks struck out on Lebron and Wade (which were the only two true difference makers) they'd be able to improve. And keeping cap space into the future with young players like Randolph, Azubuike (underrated pickup), Walker, Gallo, Chandler, Douglas, I like the upside available now while still having the ability to improve. Because the Cavs have screwed themselves with bad contracts and low potential, older veterans.
Yea I heard people say the same thing about Sergio "when you adjust his numbers and look at his per 48". As usual my responds is I don't go by that shut I go by what they do on the court with the minutes they do play
does he have good potential? Yes but I'm not jumping on the all star potential bandwagon that's been rolling around.
Rodriguez also won't be in the NBA this season, he went back to spain.
Mkadoza, you made some excellent points. Except for David Lee, I agree with many of them. But once again, let me say that guys who rebound and score are very hard to find. I can live with Lee's defensive deficiencies but I love his consistent high level rebounding and ability to put the ball in the basket.
Will Randolph reach his potential? Randolph's future is an unknown, but we already know David Lee reached his. If Randolph has such great potential, why was GS so eager to give him away?
I also believe Amare Stoudamire will not be the same player without Steve Nash. Do you remember Phoenix before Nash arrived? They had outstanding players who were horrible as a team.
I'm not big fan of that "whenever they get a star" strategy, which is nothing more than wishful thinking, just like this summer's free agency fiasco. Therefore, my other problem with Walsh was the fact that he gambled too much on free agency. He gave up on Jordan Hill and essentially lost another potentially valuable number one draft choice to Houston. I'm a firm believer in keeping number ones, especially when you have a bad team.
I'm not saying Walsh was terrible but overall I cannot grade him any higher than a "C". Are there ways the Knicks can come out of this looking good? Yes, but the odds are against them. At best, they will become a fringe playoff contender and that's not good enough for NY.
Durant ceiling is CRAZY... He could be a LOCK DOWN defender (see: Lakers series), he can still work on his post game, rebounding, and his ability to get to the rack.. Randolph is a nice young player, but to compare him to Durant??? Thats crazy, arent they around the same age?? Durant is cashing in on his talent and the scary part is he is going to get better in ALL aspects of his game..
I hate to see Lee go but it was probably necessary. It would be tough to put Lee and Stoudemire in the frontcourt together. They would make a formidable tandem but both of their production would go down and so would their trade value.
Trading Lee was also a good move because we get some solid pieces and a chance to take a look at Randolph who has boatloads of potential. All 3 contracts also come off the books next year which gives us alot of flexibility/possibilities in free agency next year.
I know Randolph's consistency is in question but he is worth the risk. I've seen a few games where he looked like a young KG. I have faith that D'Antoni will be able to bring the best out of him.
I would be very excited if the rumors were true and the Knicks are going to replace Walsh with Pritchard. Pritchard has a knack for acquiring draft picks and has a great eye on draft day.
The acquisition of Randolph lessens of the sting from our terrible draft day. Plus the additions of Jerome Jordan and the summer league signing of Garcia who is intriguing.
I agree with the ceiling and durant could be a good defender but I'm not gonna base it off of durant checking Kobe for 5 min
I think Randolph has the pure ability and potential to be an All-Star, but he's not even close to the player nor does he have the potential to be the player Durant is or can become. They have alot of the same tools, but Durant has a scoring skill set that's 2 times better than Randolph's. And Durant's post game is only scratching the surface really what it could be. Durant has H.O.F ability, Randolph at best has All-Star ability.
If Walsh is leaving like they say he is and Pritchard comes in then D'Antoni needs to go his system will not win a title, they are in a true rebuild process and are starting to gain some good young talent( Stoudemire, Gallinari, Randolph, Turiaf, Chandler, and Walker), they have a lot of CAP room and a lot of options, they have a project big in Jordan and a need at PG and I think Erci Maynor fits perfect he is a true PG and they should go after him OKC would let him go for the right price. They still need a #1 option and Carmelo fits the bill even after that move they would have a lot of CAP room left maybe 10-15mil and can fill out other areas such as another shooter( JR Smith) they have Azubuike who can defend the perimeter and knock down 3's and They could go after Tony Prker to be their PG, they still need a true defensive presence inside and Turiaf and Jordan may work but thats only if they put in the work they need to be Perkins like for. As for a coach they need a true championship type of guy a coach that will make his players defend and work hard with a great staff and that can handle New York City, I know he may be a long shot but Jeff Van Gundy would coach this team great. New York 2011
Coach- Jeff Van Gundy
Asst. Coach- Mark Jackson
I like this team they could win a title if all pans out well
How can anyone listen to the ridiculous comments of Jeff VAn Gundy on ABC and want him as their coach? The more Van Gundy talks, the more I realize he doesn't understand basketball.
As for Mark Jackson, he clearly understands the game and might become an outstanding coach one day.
There's a reason gs traded a guy who some fans think has allstar potential. They have watched this guy practice and play for 2 years and word is bredon wright if healthy would have played more min then randoplh.word was randoplh didn't look that good in vet camp. He had moment in a gs system that anyone can score in but he also had moments when given time where he looked very bad. I don't know any player who became a allstar after looking like he did at times
Rtbt, you don't think Jeff Van Gundy is a solid NBA coach?
JNixon-Iggy9, I never thought highly of him as a coach. However, after listening to him allegedly analyzing games for ABC, I'm convinced I was right. He's a terrible analyst who repeatedly says things which make me wonder if the man actually understands basketball.
Obviously he had a decent record as a coach, but that might have been because of the talent and his assistant coaches. I would never hire Jeff Van Gundy for my team. But then again, I don't own a team - LOL.
The Real Van Gundy took and 8 seed Knick team to the Finals need I say more
HD_The_Kidm that was a fair point, but I think that was a very talented team. One might ask why they were a number 8 seed to begin with? Maybe it was poor coaching?
It was also one of those years where everything went right for the Knicks in the playoffs. I might be wrong, but I think they would have lost long before they got to the finals if it weren't for a last second shot that hit the rim, bounced 3 feet in the air, and fell into the basket.
Nonetheless, listening to him on ABC truly makes me wonder how a guy with so little knowledge of the game could possibly be an NBA coach.