[d-grizzlyParticipant]

1. Tim Duncan has had a better career than Kobe Bryant. If one was to start a team today, I would choose Tim Duncan easily. It wouldn’t even be a debate. I want a strong leader. I want someone without ego or on/off-the-court issues. I want someone that will make his teammates better and excel on BOTH ends of the floor.. I want someone who is considered the best at their position without debate……. and I will also say Kobe Bryant has not been the best at his position for many years now, while Duncan is still the best PF in the game, and has been since his rookie year.

Duncan and Pop made parker and ginobli into future hall of famers. Kobe did not make shaq a hall of famer, and I honestly think Pau would have won a playoff game/series even without Kobe. Similar to Duncan, Kobe has always had talent around him. The difference is, it has always fallen a part and it’s usually terrible attitude issues and ego problems. What’s the most common thing though? The lakers organization kept Kobe every time. Lastly, Kobe did not earn those first-team defensive awards. Not all of them anyway. Players like: snow, christie, battier, ray allen, tony allen, posey, wade, hinrich, bogans, prince, etc… all were more deserving for the first team award. Duncan has earned every single award he has been given.

To conclude #1, barring the shot from Fisher in the 2004 playoffs, yes the one in game 5 where fisher catches the ball, turns around, and somehow gets a shot off with .4 seconds (he did not get that shot off and it would not have counted in today’s league), the spurs should/would have been up 3-2. I think they would have eliminated the lakers in game 6. From there, they could have likely beat the pistons in 04 and then in 05 again. Duncan’s fifth ring would have likely been in 2007. And lastly, barring a magical legit-shot from Ray Allen in the most recent finals, Duncan could have 6 rings, and be 6/6 in the finals. It really is that close.

2. Lebron James will have a better career than Kobe Bryant and place somewhere in the top 5 of all time. I think Lebron can make a case for #4 behind either Russell or Magic. Even if Lebron does not win 5 or more rings, he still will be the better player between he and Kobe when it’s all said and done. 

Since Jordan, Lebron and Duncan have made their teammates as effective as possible. The leadership and play on both ends of the floor truly is amazing. Lebron took a terrible cavs team to the finals with teams like detroit and miami (despite wade and shaq’s injuries that year) in the east. Lebron will also be the best player at his position of all time when it’s all said and done. Same with Duncan, being the best PF ever.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Expect negs from jealous Laker fans.

I’ve always said that Duncan was better than Kobe.  There is a reason why Duncan has never missed the playoffs in his career and the Spurs are constantly a 50-win team, Duncan is the pillar of excellence and a model of consistency.  He’s the greatest PF of all time and can definitely be thrown in with names like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt.

In 16 years in the NBA, the Spurs have made the playoffs each year and have never had a win% below 61%.  

As a matter of fact, the Spurs have won 50+ games in 15 of his 16 season, the only season they didn’t, was a lockout shortened season where there were only 50 games total, the Spurs still won 37 of those.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Expect negs from jealous Laker fans.

I’ve always said that Duncan was better than Kobe.  There is a reason why Duncan has never missed the playoffs in his career and the Spurs are constantly a 50-win team, Duncan is the pillar of excellence and a model of consistency.  He’s the greatest PF of all time and can definitely be thrown in with names like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt.

In 16 years in the NBA, the Spurs have made the playoffs each year and have never had a win% below 61%.  

As a matter of fact, the Spurs have won 50+ games in 15 of his 16 season, the only season they didn’t, was a lockout shortened season where there were only 50 games total, the Spurs still won 37 of those.

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

Even from a big Kobe fan such as myself, I agree with you that Duncan has had a better career and been a better asset to he Spurs than Kobe has. 

BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY LOST YOUR MIND SAYING DUNCAN IS STILL THE BEST PF IN THE GAME!  He isn’t even in the top 5!  He is however the best PF ever, but currently?! Cmon man!

Lebron having a better career than Kobe isn’t even close to a bold statement.

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

Even from a big Kobe fan such as myself, I agree with you that Duncan has had a better career and been a better asset to he Spurs than Kobe has. 

BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY LOST YOUR MIND SAYING DUNCAN IS STILL THE BEST PF IN THE GAME!  He isn’t even in the top 5!  He is however the best PF ever, but currently?! Cmon man!

Lebron having a better career than Kobe isn’t even close to a bold statement.

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

 To be honest these werent bold statements neither of them.

To people who know basketball and understand the game somewhat and dont get caught up in the excitment will agree Duncan is better than Kobe.

 

And Lebron passing Kobe up/ having a better career is already a given, I hardly see threads anymore about LBJ vs Kobe, everybody compares Lbj to Mike now and if he can pass him up.

 

 

 

 

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

 To be honest these werent bold statements neither of them.

To people who know basketball and understand the game somewhat and dont get caught up in the excitment will agree Duncan is better than Kobe.

 

And Lebron passing Kobe up/ having a better career is already a given, I hardly see threads anymore about LBJ vs Kobe, everybody compares Lbj to Mike now and if he can pass him up.

 

 

 

 

[llperez]

we can argue kobe vs Duncan all day. Ive gone those rounds before and its opinion. Fact is laker fans will say kobe, spurs fans will Duncan. ANd the majority of people who are neither fans of the spurs or lakers will say Duncan as well. He is not hated. Kobe is.

However, I want to argue your 0.4 fisher shot comment. You say it would not have counted in todays game. Why is that? what rules have changed since then? Ill go ahead and tell you that zero rules or replay policies have changed at all regarding that play. It would be ruled exactly the same today as it was then because the ball was out of his hands before the shot clock turned red and there is in fact time to catch and shoot with 0.4 left which has been mathematically proven. So not sure what you mean by it wouldn’t count in todays league. Oh, and that shot was facing the rim and pure net with fisher using his normal release. It was no more lucky then Duncan’s shot that put the spurs up 1 with 0.4 left on the clock where he was falling down and had shaqs’ hand in his face. And what makes you come to the conclusion that the spurs win game 6 if they were up 3-2 as opposed to what happened when they lost game 6 down 3-2? Did they not play as well because they were down 3-2? You sure have some solid support behind that statement.

[llperez]

we can argue kobe vs Duncan all day. Ive gone those rounds before and its opinion. Fact is laker fans will say kobe, spurs fans will Duncan. ANd the majority of people who are neither fans of the spurs or lakers will say Duncan as well. He is not hated. Kobe is.

However, I want to argue your 0.4 fisher shot comment. You say it would not have counted in todays game. Why is that? what rules have changed since then? Ill go ahead and tell you that zero rules or replay policies have changed at all regarding that play. It would be ruled exactly the same today as it was then because the ball was out of his hands before the shot clock turned red and there is in fact time to catch and shoot with 0.4 left which has been mathematically proven. So not sure what you mean by it wouldn’t count in todays league. Oh, and that shot was facing the rim and pure net with fisher using his normal release. It was no more lucky then Duncan’s shot that put the spurs up 1 with 0.4 left on the clock where he was falling down and had shaqs’ hand in his face. And what makes you come to the conclusion that the spurs win game 6 if they were up 3-2 as opposed to what happened when they lost game 6 down 3-2? Did they not play as well because they were down 3-2? You sure have some solid support behind that statement.

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

 It is not a matter of opinion that matters, it’s facts that matter. Duncan is the better player between the 2, and Lebron will be better than Kobe by the end of his career as well.

In addition, just watch the video. Fisher catches the ball and the clock doesn’t start until both of his feet plant/set, then he turns and releases. That is some overly-fair treatment on that shot and no amount of bias for the lakers can negate it. The video evidence is easy to find and it proves my point.

Lastly, being a game from elimination can knock on some confidence. The lakers won game 6 fair and square, but I think if the Spurs were up 3-2 in Duncan’s prime, they would have got the job done. You have shown nothing to disprove my bold statements.

 

 

 

 

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

 It is not a matter of opinion that matters, it’s facts that matter. Duncan is the better player between the 2, and Lebron will be better than Kobe by the end of his career as well.

In addition, just watch the video. Fisher catches the ball and the clock doesn’t start until both of his feet plant/set, then he turns and releases. That is some overly-fair treatment on that shot and no amount of bias for the lakers can negate it. The video evidence is easy to find and it proves my point.

Lastly, being a game from elimination can knock on some confidence. The lakers won game 6 fair and square, but I think if the Spurs were up 3-2 in Duncan’s prime, they would have got the job done. You have shown nothing to disprove my bold statements.

 

 

 

 

[llperez]

okay, so I say who is better between Duncan and kobe is debatable and you say no it is not, Duncan being better is a fact. If you say so. Again, I can argue all day but I have been there done that and don’t want to repeat myself right now as im leaving in a bit. BUt if you think it is a fact and not opinion, then good for you. Im guessing you might want to look up the definition of fact though before you come to that conclusion.

Secondly, I have watched the video replay numerous times. I enjoy it every bit as much now as I did then. The shot happens in  the blink of an eye. He doesn’t catch and plant and turn his feet. Its all one motion where he catches and tosses it up off balance. Video replays can not change clock start/stop times down to the millisecond unless they are grossly negligent. Nothing in the rules has changed today then they were then. If the ball was out of his hands before the clock turns red, and there is no clear evidence the timer started late, then its good. It was good, don’t know why it wouldn’t count today.

As for game 6, woulda shoulda coulda. If karl Malone doesn’t get hurt in 2004. If lakers don’t blow 20+ point lead in game 4 vs boston in 2008, if dallas doesn’t blow 10 point lead in 4th quarter of 2005 finals vs Miami, if ray allen doesn’t make that shot vs spurs last year at the buzzer, if paul George doesn’t let LeBron walk down the lane in the final 2 seconds of the east finals last year, if paxson  doesn’t hit that three at the buzzer vs the suns in game 6, if horry doesn’t hit that three vs the kings at the buzzer in game 4 blah blah blah blah blah….

I don’t even care about the second comment and as soon as I saw LeBron will be better then kobe I stopped reading because I really don’t care.

[llperez]

okay, so I say who is better between Duncan and kobe is debatable and you say no it is not, Duncan being better is a fact. If you say so. Again, I can argue all day but I have been there done that and don’t want to repeat myself right now as im leaving in a bit. BUt if you think it is a fact and not opinion, then good for you. Im guessing you might want to look up the definition of fact though before you come to that conclusion.

Secondly, I have watched the video replay numerous times. I enjoy it every bit as much now as I did then. The shot happens in  the blink of an eye. He doesn’t catch and plant and turn his feet. Its all one motion where he catches and tosses it up off balance. Video replays can not change clock start/stop times down to the millisecond unless they are grossly negligent. Nothing in the rules has changed today then they were then. If the ball was out of his hands before the clock turns red, and there is no clear evidence the timer started late, then its good. It was good, don’t know why it wouldn’t count today.

As for game 6, woulda shoulda coulda. If karl Malone doesn’t get hurt in 2004. If lakers don’t blow 20+ point lead in game 4 vs boston in 2008, if dallas doesn’t blow 10 point lead in 4th quarter of 2005 finals vs Miami, if ray allen doesn’t make that shot vs spurs last year at the buzzer, if paul George doesn’t let LeBron walk down the lane in the final 2 seconds of the east finals last year, if paxson  doesn’t hit that three at the buzzer vs the suns in game 6, if horry doesn’t hit that three vs the kings at the buzzer in game 4 blah blah blah blah blah….

I don’t even care about the second comment and as soon as I saw LeBron will be better then kobe I stopped reading because I really don’t care.

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

What about the ludicrous statement you made claiming Duncan is still the best PF in the game?!  You hurt my brain with that one.

Griffin, Love, Davis, Aldridge, Dirk, Ibaka, Bosh, Zach Randolph…All are currently better without a doubt.

Al Jefferson, Millsap, Josh Smith, David Lee, Pao Gasol, Greg Monroe, Derek Favors, Thad Young, Ryan Anderson…Are all on his level or better.

Duncan has had an amazing career and Pop has done a great job extending his career while he still is a good player.  He is nowhere near the player he used to be though.  Your other statements I agree with 100 % but they are not bold at all.  You think you’re just a little smarter than you actually are

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

What about the ludicrous statement you made claiming Duncan is still the best PF in the game?!  You hurt my brain with that one.

Griffin, Love, Davis, Aldridge, Dirk, Ibaka, Bosh, Zach Randolph…All are currently better without a doubt.

Al Jefferson, Millsap, Josh Smith, David Lee, Pao Gasol, Greg Monroe, Derek Favors, Thad Young, Ryan Anderson…Are all on his level or better.

Duncan has had an amazing career and Pop has done a great job extending his career while he still is a good player.  He is nowhere near the player he used to be though.  Your other statements I agree with 100 % but they are not bold at all.  You think you’re just a little smarter than you actually are

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

btw tongue, great info about the spurs winning %. That truly is incredible…

 

  

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

btw tongue, great info about the spurs winning %. That truly is incredible…

 

  

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

perez,

when addressing all the factors of what makes a player great or "better", duncan takes most over Kobe. It’s not a debate, you should let it go.

And you are being biased about the shot clock and fisher did catch/plant, turn and shoot. The shot clock did not start until he was planted. Video evidence confirms it.

Lastly, you can "not care" all you want about my second bold statement. Facts aren’t always friendly. Lower your pride my friend.

 

 

  

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

perez,

when addressing all the factors of what makes a player great or "better", duncan takes most over Kobe. It’s not a debate, you should let it go.

And you are being biased about the shot clock and fisher did catch/plant, turn and shoot. The shot clock did not start until he was planted. Video evidence confirms it.

Lastly, you can "not care" all you want about my second bold statement. Facts aren’t always friendly. Lower your pride my friend.

 

 

  

[llperez]

lol

[llperez]

lol

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

I will cave on that. Maybe I was carried away about Duncan. Aldridge is the current best PF. Despite the list of PF’s you show, sure they’re all good. Let their individual success and team success against the spurs be the deciding factor though. As big a fan of Zbo that I am, Duncan still owns him every time they play.

[d-grizzlyParticipant]

I will cave on that. Maybe I was carried away about Duncan. Aldridge is the current best PF. Despite the list of PF’s you show, sure they’re all good. Let their individual success and team success against the spurs be the deciding factor though. As big a fan of Zbo that I am, Duncan still owns him every time they play.

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

Can’t say that Duncan is better than these others only on the fact that these teams can’t beat them.  Duncan still does contribute some to the Spurs success, however the elite coaching of Pop is why they continue to have success.  Along with their best player Tony Parker and their elite scouting and depth.  Kevin Love even with his defensive deficiencies is better for sure.  Blake Griffin is too and I’m not even a huge fan of his overall game.  One would also be hard pressed to say Anthony Davis isn’t already better as well.  Then there is Dirk who is actually still the best player on his team who is better as well.  I’m with you on the greatness of Timmy, just attempting to level you out as the PF position has truly become incredibly strong in this era.

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

Can’t say that Duncan is better than these others only on the fact that these teams can’t beat them.  Duncan still does contribute some to the Spurs success, however the elite coaching of Pop is why they continue to have success.  Along with their best player Tony Parker and their elite scouting and depth.  Kevin Love even with his defensive deficiencies is better for sure.  Blake Griffin is too and I’m not even a huge fan of his overall game.  One would also be hard pressed to say Anthony Davis isn’t already better as well.  Then there is Dirk who is actually still the best player on his team who is better as well.  I’m with you on the greatness of Timmy, just attempting to level you out as the PF position has truly become incredibly strong in this era.

[Da1potParticipant]

Tim Duncan isn’t any less effective than he has been throughout his entire career for the last couple of seasons. His Per-36 stats are right on line with his career averages. The difference is that he is playing less minutes because he and Pop realize his body can’t handle the same kind of minutes as before. There is a lot of mileage on those legs and players such as Kobe should follow the same model. Kobe has been playing 38 minutes a game on average since he has been 20 and it is a given that his body would break down eventually.

Iverson was only 33 when he started to decline but 13 straight years of playing 42 minutes a game finally caught up to him.

Playing 25-30 minutes is a lot better than playing zero due to injury……

 

 

[Da1potParticipant]

Tim Duncan isn’t any less effective than he has been throughout his entire career for the last couple of seasons. His Per-36 stats are right on line with his career averages. The difference is that he is playing less minutes because he and Pop realize his body can’t handle the same kind of minutes as before. There is a lot of mileage on those legs and players such as Kobe should follow the same model. Kobe has been playing 38 minutes a game on average since he has been 20 and it is a given that his body would break down eventually.

Iverson was only 33 when he started to decline but 13 straight years of playing 42 minutes a game finally caught up to him.

Playing 25-30 minutes is a lot better than playing zero due to injury……

 

 

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

Didn’t know that.  I agree that Pop has handled him great.  If you watch him play though, you can’t tell me he is the same player.  I hardly ever see him get double teamed and he does not deny everyone at the rim anymore.  Numbers don’t tell all.

[JD’s_TimberpuppiesParticipant]

Didn’t know that.  I agree that Pop has handled him great.  If you watch him play though, you can’t tell me he is the same player.  I hardly ever see him get double teamed and he does not deny everyone at the rim anymore.  Numbers don’t tell all.

[Brennan23Participant]

Kobe is better because I said so and it is a fact because I said so. It can’t even be argued so just give up

[Brennan23Participant]

Kobe is better because I said so and it is a fact because I said so. It can’t even be argued so just give up

[Memphisboy14Participant]

I guess I may be one of the few people who feels like I can only compare players if they play the same position. A bigman is probably not gonna score as many points or get as many assists as a guard. And a guard is probably not gonna get as many rebounds or blocks as a bigman. If you’re gonna compare Kobe to someone compare him to D-Wade and compare Tim Duncan to Kevin Garnett. I can’t say that someone like Tim Duncan has had a better career than Kobe mainly because perimeter players don’t normally impact the game the same way that post players do and vice versa. Regardless of what you think of them they are 2 of the best players of their generation they’ve both had a huge amount of success in the NBA with Kobe winning 5 rings and Duncan winning 4. Nothing to scoff at for either one of them. I just don’t see how Duncan has had a better career or how he is a better player when Kobe’s had just about the same amount of success in the NBA. Not trying to say that he doesn’t  because I don’t like Kobe at all but I have to respect and acknowledge what he’s done in his time. 

[Memphisboy14Participant]

I guess I may be one of the few people who feels like I can only compare players if they play the same position. A bigman is probably not gonna score as many points or get as many assists as a guard. And a guard is probably not gonna get as many rebounds or blocks as a bigman. If you’re gonna compare Kobe to someone compare him to D-Wade and compare Tim Duncan to Kevin Garnett. I can’t say that someone like Tim Duncan has had a better career than Kobe mainly because perimeter players don’t normally impact the game the same way that post players do and vice versa. Regardless of what you think of them they are 2 of the best players of their generation they’ve both had a huge amount of success in the NBA with Kobe winning 5 rings and Duncan winning 4. Nothing to scoff at for either one of them. I just don’t see how Duncan has had a better career or how he is a better player when Kobe’s had just about the same amount of success in the NBA. Not trying to say that he doesn’t  because I don’t like Kobe at all but I have to respect and acknowledge what he’s done in his time. 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Duncan and Kobe is a toss up honestly. LeBron has more MVP’s and currently a better PPG rate than Kobe but Kobe has 5 titles. I’m huge fans of all 3 guys and this virtually is a debate about guys who would place in the top 10 players of all time but I would agree it is easier to compare these 3 than players across various eras.

The thing that people maybe use unintentionaally against Kobe is that if you pick an all time greatest team based purely on players in their best position then most of us have MJ at SG so Kobe doesn’t get in.

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Duncan and Kobe is a toss up honestly. LeBron has more MVP’s and currently a better PPG rate than Kobe but Kobe has 5 titles. I’m huge fans of all 3 guys and this virtually is a debate about guys who would place in the top 10 players of all time but I would agree it is easier to compare these 3 than players across various eras.

The thing that people maybe use unintentionaally against Kobe is that if you pick an all time greatest team based purely on players in their best position then most of us have MJ at SG so Kobe doesn’t get in.

 

[HaleParticipant]

 Just come off as a huge Duncan homer to me. Even though your two statements are correct.

[HaleParticipant]

 Just come off as a huge Duncan homer to me. Even though your two statements are correct.

[jwall1Participant]

 Im sorry but Duncan is getting too much credit, the Spurs organization is simply amazing and that is the biggest pillar for their success. Duncan is without a doubt a big part in that success, but if the roles were switched with KG and Duncan, I feel Garnett would have more rings than Duncan. Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, and the Spurs GM deserve alot of the credit for Spurs success also.. Kobe makes a bigger difference out there on the court, just my opinion.

[jwall1Participant]

 Im sorry but Duncan is getting too much credit, the Spurs organization is simply amazing and that is the biggest pillar for their success. Duncan is without a doubt a big part in that success, but if the roles were switched with KG and Duncan, I feel Garnett would have more rings than Duncan. Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, and the Spurs GM deserve alot of the credit for Spurs success also.. Kobe makes a bigger difference out there on the court, just my opinion.

[Author]

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