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Tracy Mcgrady is SO overrated!

rhofern
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Tracy Mcgrady is SO overrated!

okay he was and is still occasionally a great scorer. in his prime he was a good passer and rebounder for his position too. but for his career he shot 74 % free throws and would have been lower if it werent for his lone 80 % season 2 years ago. hes a career 33 % shooter from three and a career 43 % from the field. Mitch Richmond has a higher career scoring average than him. What about his playoff success? ohhh thats right ....he has none! its not like he never had any help.... in '99, the toronto raptors had T-Mac, Vince Carter, Charles Oakley, Muggsy Bogues, Kevin Willis, Dell Curry, and Antonio Davis thats a solid team but only finished 45-37 and got shut out in the first round by the knicks! Lets take a look at the 2002 Orlando Magic, which included T-Mac, Mike Miller, Shawn Kemp, Darrell Armstrong, Grant Hill, Drew Gooden, Horace Grant, and Pat Garrity...your telling me that team only won 42 games and couldnt get out of the 1st round? Finally lets take a look at the 2007 Houston Rockets.....T-Mac, Yao Ming, Dikembe Mutombo, Rafer Alston, Shane Battier, Steve Francis, Aaron Brooks, Luis Scola, Chick Hayes, Carl Landry, and Bonzi Wells. that is 11 more than quality guys and while the were impressive in the regular season with 55 wins they again lost in the first round. To make a long story short tracy mcgrady doesnt know how to win even if Bill Russell wrote him a gameplan of how to get championship rings.

Im not against T-Mac, I like him a lot and he even played for my team, the New York Knicks. I think he will eventually be enshrined into the hall of fame but i do not think he is a franchise player to build a team around while most people do <-----------talking about in his prime.

Imagine if penny never got hurt, shaq stayed with Orlando, grant hill stayed healthy

Your 2002-03 Orlando Magic

PG: Penny Hardaway SG: Tracy McGrady SF: Grant Hill PF: Horace Grant C: Shaq

If they all stay healthy and form chemistry that is at least a 60 win team and can potentially win a championship.


iguapops420
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^^^ I agree with only a

^^^ I agree with only a portion, which is that he wasn't a franchise player. He was franchise talent and impact, but always had an inner doubter making him more of a number 2 scoring option. Tracy McGrady was like the second coming of Scottie Pippen, The mold for LBJ. He was the transition between the two. Always dreamed of he and Kobe playing together. Even now that his days as a Pippen type number 2 are over, I still have open arms for Mac to come play a Ron Harper type role. He's starting to show that while he's lost his ability to score at an elite level, he's style quite the playmaker taking over the reigns of pg for the Pistons.

Mkadoza
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He was absolutely a Number 1

He was absolutely a Number 1 scorer, and would have been on any team that didnt have Kobe in his prime. How was he overrated? He was a 6'8" athletic freak with length for days, some of the best range in the NBA, and had the handle of a point guard. He's a Kevin Durant type, except with better passing, equal defense, and worse rebounding. Injuries, to him and his teammates robbed him of his best, but at his best... as dominant and unguardable as any 2 guard I've ever seen. He carried a team of terrible players and the never healthy Grant Hill to the playoffs three straight years.. He played through chronic back pain, family tragedy, depression, and constant ridicule, he played, and played spectacularly. SO if you dont respect the man fine. I'm just letting you know the guy your overlooking. Not everyone can be Kobe or Jordan, but McGrady was pretty freaking amazing.

rhofern
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i dont think the lakers

i dont think the lakers really need tmac now where would he play? not point and backup wing belongs to lamar odom.....

iguapops420
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^^^Um, no. Steve Blake is

^^^Um, no. Steve Blake is backup pg and Shanno backup 2. Neither player is good enough to be guaranteed their spot beside of Mac. LAL has trouble creating from the perimeter, have for years, so much to the fact that Tex Winter was commenting on their need for a second playmaker/scorer. Beside of a Kobe, Mac could still play a large role for LA allowing Kobe to go off-ball more which has been his (and Phil's) preference for some years now. Kobe in the post is the ideal situation for LA, having Tracy be it off the bench or starting would be greatly benificial come playoff time when teams are focusing on Kobe throwing doubles and triples at him making it harder to get the ball to the bigs. Not saying Tracy is a must have to win, just that the skills he could potentially bring on the cheap could pay off.

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Do you know what his playoff

Do you know what his playoff averages are? 28 7 6 o forgot to mention that huh?

iguapops420
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I shouldn't have put #2

I shouldn't have put #2 scoring option because he put #1 like numbers up, but he was best served as a number2. Me comparing him to Pippen should show you how high of regards he's held. But just because you can put up the numbers of a first option, doesn't mean that you are a #1 option. Doesn't always work that way. You think if Tracy was put in a Pau Gasol position as Robin instead of Batman he wouldn't have had much better playoff success. GTFO. He was a second option at heart just like LBJ, he was a superstar and my 4th favorite player of all time behind Kobe,MJ,Pip. Don't misunderstand and take me as someone discrediting Tracy in anyway.

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Maybe this isn't the right

Maybe this isn't the right place to debate it, since this topic is about t-mac, but I REALLY don't think Lebron is a number two option.

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I think T-Mac was a franchise

I think T-Mac was a franchise player.

But I think he is overrated in that regard if people say, that he would have been better than Kobe or that he is a Hall of Famer.

Mkadoza
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The 2002 Magic? Grant couldnt

The 2002 Magic? Grant couldnt play, Armstrong was Darren Collison at best, and was clearly the best option outside of McGrady... Are you serious? Pat Garrity's your best big? Cracked out, unmotivated Kemp, old and hurt Ewing, a good role player in Miller. And what do you mean he doesnt know how to win... thats so stupid. You win by scoring more than the other team in 5 and 7 game series in the playoffs. He knew that. Hes teams werent that good... ever. Except in 05 and 07, where they lost tough 7 games series to Dallas and Utah respectively... Cant we just appreciate him for what hes done? he plays for a &$#%#&@! team now and hes a shell of his former self.

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i dont understand

how u can lead the league in scoring and be a seccond option tmac against the mavs was one of my favorite series the one where he POSTERIZES shawn bradley this is no seccond option

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LOL. I remember that DUNK on

LOL. I remember that DUNK on Bradley!
Our Houston Commentators were like, "MCGRADY SAYS BLOCK THIS!"

MJ FOR LIFE 23
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Teams mentioned

Let's take a look at those teams you just mentioned. When T-Mac was in Toronto, he wasn't even in his prime yet and was overshadowed by his cousin Vince and all the guys you mentioned were already old and out of their prime. When T-mac was in Orlando Grant Hill was already hit by ankle injuries and only played in 14 games in 2002 and 4 the year before. Shawn Kemp was out of shape and Horace Grant was past his prime. In 2007 Steve Francis was traded to the Knicks. Yao Ming only played in 48 games. Mutombo was way past his prime and retired after that season. T-Mac was gone by the time Scola played and Carl Landry was still in college. If anything T-Mac is just unfortunate to play in teams whose stars are injury plagued. T-Mac was a top 5 player in his prime. Just watch this clip to show how good he is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceLlz7dOOvY

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Knicksboy stay away from

Knicksboy stay away from here...we already had this argument,

No Tracy McGrady was not overrated. He was as unstoppable scorer as we've seen in recent memory. He could do it all and lit up the playoffs~far too much blame for his lack of success there is blamed on him solely.Half the people you mentioned in your post didn't play with him or was far past their primes.

llperez
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first off those teams you

first off those teams you mentioned are very misleading. There were injuries and a number of those guys were not even close to their primes. Fact is TMac was a top 10 player for many years and top 5 for a hanful of seasons. Prime TMac would absolutely no doubt in my mind be right in the mix with todays kobe, lebron, wade, durant discussions.

MJ FOR LIFE 23
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Question

I'm still confused as to how to put a video that's not a link. So you go to plain text editor but where do you put the embed code? Thanks to the person who answers.

IknoBall12
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misleading topic

The good thing is u did research. The bad thing is u didnt exactly watch ur research and apparently u just listed what u saw. llperez is right yea u did find the rosters but many of those teams were very injury plagued and the big names were mostly old players or early players. The only one i can really blame tracy for imo is the rockets team because i thought they were serious championship contenders. but cmon......did we really think a team muggsy bogues was ever gonna win a ring? i think not.....

justinc
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damn everyone just owned him.

damn everyone just owned him. sit downnnnnn

RickyRubio9
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Rockets = T-Mac &

Rockets = T-Mac & Yao.

Suppose to be a poor man's Shaq & Kobe..
I wish we would've had them both healthy.

iguapops420
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^^^ Exactly, that was my

^^^ Exactly, that was my point, you either have the midset of a lead guy or you don't, no amount of stats are going to chsnge that. T-Mac grew up playing as second fiddle to older cousin VC, along with mentioning Penny Hardaway and Scottie Pippen as his two favorite players growing up. Throw in the fact that no matter how good of numbers he put up, he was never able to lead any team past the first round. He's just like KG, he's best suited as a second option. There is nothing wrong with being a second option. Are you all going to set there and say Kobe wasn't the best second option of all time with Shaq? Well that's exactly what Tracy went on record as saying when he heard he was going to play with Yao, that he couldn't wait to be Yao's sidekick and form the next Shaq -Kobe. And yes he used Shaq-Kobe as the actual refernce. So yeah, sorry, he was a number two at heart. He's not your everyday run of the mill second option, as he is still a superstar, but if he was to ever win a title, he would have been playing second option.

iguapops420
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I never once said that TMac

I never once said that TMac was overrated, just that he wasn't a winner as #1.

ShekiruBoom
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wtf is this? KG is best

wtf is this? KG is best suited to be a 2nd option? Since when were TMac LeBron and KG each top 5 players in their own times best suited as 2nd options?

llperez
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tmac was not a second option.

tmac was not a second option. He tried to take over games and wanted the ball at the ned of games. Heres a question to those knocking his lack of playoff success, how many times was tmacs team beat by an inferior opponent in the palyoffs? I cant remember any. Im pretty sure tmacs team was the underdog in every series he played in maybe minus like one that im just not remembering.

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how on earth would orlando

how on earth would orlando afford the massive extentions to penny and shaq and give out max contracts to free agents...

pretty &$#%#&@! 'what if'

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I seem to recall that Yao and

I seem to recall that Yao and T-Mac maybe only played one or two play off series in tandem during their time at Houston. T-Mac to be called a good 2nd option was ridiculous, the guy was a double scoring champion, that would be like calling Kevin Durant a 2nd option for example. Also remember the 25 game winning run that he inspired Houston to in 2007-08.

I've always liked T-Mac and at his peak between 2001 and 2008 he was one of the very top players in the NBA and a true franchise guy. During his time at Toronto, he was still a teenager on a rookie deal and in recent years injuries seem to have caught up with him. When he was playing maybe 15mpg last season and not hardly scoring or getting shots, I felt sorry for the guy and thought maybe he should just retire especially as he'd got a move to the Knicks and what could have been a great fit just didn't quite work out. But he battled and got a position with Detroit on their roster and in recent weeks seems to be finding some form again and he's playing decent minutes without any reaction. He's very unlikely to find his old form again but he can probably play to a good level and maybe get a shot with a contender in the near future.

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He is so overrated that he

He is so overrated that he scored 13 points in 33 seconds to win a game once

surve
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No way is McGrady overated.

No way is McGrady overated. This guy was a legitimate great player in his prime, not just a great scorer. He is a team player who is sort of like Lebron, atheletic with great fundamental tools. His last hurrah to me was when he put Houston on his back in that last series against the Jazz when Yao went out. He was definited a 1st option franchise player without the injuries. We are not talking about Greg Oden here. Oden, who still can be good, is a guy we dont have a read on, we dont know how good he can be because he hasnt done anything. McGrady, its safe to say that without the injuries, he was a HOF player and was heading for all-time greatness. I can see where you would say he was a Pippen type and could fit in as a 2nd option because he is an unselfish player who was good at making plays. Offensively, I think he was as good as Kobe, just a different style, and I think Kobe is the most gifted offensive player to ever play. (and yes, I grew up watching Jordan) In regards to the Ron Harper comparison, I posted here a few months ago that I thought McGrady could be just what the Heat needs to be a championship team. McGrady at PG. I am not suggesting at PG that T-Mac is better than Harp, because Harp was one of the greatest role players to ever play and was such a integral part of those championships in LA and Chicago. T-Mac can make that type of transformation to his game and I believe at 31, he still can become an All-Star again, although his days as an elite scorer and 1st or 2nd option night in-out are over with. Remember, Bernard King did it at 34 when most doubted that he would even play again. Saying T-Mac is overrated is like saying Grant Hill is overrated....and look at him now. T-Mac like Hill have proven themselves, its just that their primes were much shorter lived due to injuries.

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Wow, didn't know Tmac was

Wow, didn't know Tmac was still so popular.

rhofern
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guys im not saying tmac was

guys im not saying tmac was bad at all. i think hes one of the all time greats. you can be like the best ever and still be overrated. overrated just means people think you are better than you really are even if you are really amazing. and the what if is just for your imagination to wonder how many titles they would win im not taking into account financial situations

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Houston probably had one of

Houston probably had one of the top duos with T-Mac and Yao, they added good complimentary players like Battier and later on Ron Artest but could never get out of a loaded Western Play Off First Round. Ironically when both T-Mac and Yao were out they managed it in 2009.

T-Mac can hopefully have some sort of Grant Hill late career renaissance and was still in the all star running a couple of years ago to get a starting birth due to his popularity.

iguapops420
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Ignorance is a virtue. Tracy

Ignorance is a virtue. Tracy McGrady was never able to win as the main guy on his team. KG was able to get some playoff success with just as little talent. McGrady had a 3-0 lead and then talked about how good it felt to finally get out of the first round and somehow ended up getting swept from then out. I gave you an example of Tracy McGrady talking about being Yao's sidekick, being his Kobe. And yet so many people want to patronize kobe for being a #2 to Shaq but can't admit that possibly the same role was best suited for Tracy as well. You people act as if being a second option is such a terrible thing. It's not, just means that youaren't quite suited to be the main dude. Doesn't mean you're not a superstar. I don't get how you people can pass the fact that Tracy himself admitted to wanting to be a sidekick to Yao, yet still can't believe it's possible he could have been a superstar in second fiddle role. Hell, even Phil Jackson said that Michael Jordan would have been a second option to Shaq. Just saying, get over it.

1b. is still a second option. Sorry, T-Mac couldn't win as the main dude case in point. Having no team never stopped A.I from doin it. Ray Allen. Just funny that you people can't realize that sometimes, people have a such a team outlook on the game that they just don't have the mentality to consitently carry a team as the main guy for 82 games and playoffs. ever wonder why Tracy was always hurt and his career fell off way faster than his competition (Kobe,Allen,VC,Pierce). It's because he was never a #1 on a championship team. His body couldn't handle the rigors of having all that responsibilty, that workload, that mental fatigue.

So perez, because he wanted the ball in his hands at the end of a game made him a number 1? Seems to me Scottie Pippen always wanted to take the big shot, even asking out of a crucial game because the final shot was drawn up for Kukoc not him. Doesn't mean Scottie wasn't a #2 option still. Stop being jaded everyone thinking that being a second option is such a bad thing. Dwayne Wade is a number 2 option.

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are you really gonna blame

are you really gonna blame tmacs injuries on being a go to player? Guys get hurt, there is absolutely nothing to support the idea he was injured becasue he was a number 1 option.

Wade is a number 2 option? NO he snt, he carried a team to a title. If you think tmac was a second option, then that means kevin durant, carmelo anothony and dirk nowitzki are all second options as well.

Tmac was the first option, he just never had a great team and was never the best player in the game and then got hurt.

iguapops420
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NO, go watch a Heat game now,

NO, go watch a Heat game now, Wade is clearly a number two option. Don't set there and tell me he isn't when you can clearly watch him and see that he plays number two to Lebron, who has the mindset of a 2 himself but the ego of a 1. Actually I do think all 3 of those guys are #2's beside of the main main guys, unless they were to team up like Allen, Pierce, and Garnett. Can you honestly set there and say that you truely feel confident that you can win with Dirk, Melo, or Durant as your #1 dog. If a guy can't lead by example with physical toughness, mental toughness, and a fire, players aren't going to fall in line or be willing to throw themselves in the way of a bullet for the leader. All these guys have numbers and reg season winning records of first option, but do you really want just regular season wins and a couple playoff victories or do you want a title. Dirk has already proved he can't lead a team to the title. Melo as well as he's had several good teams. Durant isn't even the leader of his own team as Westbrook has stepped into that role. Wade is one of the few exceptions to being a second option, as like Kobe, I feel confident that he is able to lead me to title as the main guy. Mild mannered happy go lucky guys just aren't main guys on their teams.

Ever wonder why for the past 20 years titles have been won by the top guy at their respective position and a second option who is top 5 at their position? Save for the first title in Hou(second had drexler), and The 04 Pistons (who had 4 all-stars). Mike/Pip, Hakeem/Drex, Mike/Pip, Tim/David, Shaq/Kobe, Tim/Gino&Tony, Kobe/Pau.

Whether it is acknowledged or not, Whether I got to see it or not, I would never Truely feel like I had a real chance at the title if I'm a fan of a team with Tracy as my main leader, because more than likely they're going to have a bunch of softies who are willing to miss extensive time to injury be it severe or moderate, and never have the fight in them to go the distance for 7 games as the leader. Funny that the same team Tracy wasn't able to get past the first round is the same team that RON ARTEST was able to take past the first round and even nearly beating the to be Champs.

Scottie Pippen was a number one option on any other team besides the Bulls, gonna say he wasn't a number two. I'm not trying to say he isn't number 1 scoring option, just that he is not the main guy. He is not a leader, to be a min guy you have to be a leader. Look at all the great talent in the past 20 years and you will find comparible players talent wise and statisctially, but only the ones who are leaders who have that dog in them, that fight are the wons who can lead teams to titles as the main guy.

iguapops420
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NO, go watch a Heat game now,

NO, go watch a Heat game now, Wade is clearly a number two option. Don't set there and tell me he isn't when you can clearly watch him and see that he plays number two to Lebron, who has the mindset of a 2 himself but the ego of a 1. Actually I do think all 3 of those guys are #2's beside of the main main guys, unless they were to team up like Allen, Pierce, and Garnett. Can you honestly set there and say that you truely feel confident that you can win with Dirk, Melo, or Durant as your #1 dog. If a guy can't lead by example with physical toughness, mental toughness, and a fire, players aren't going to fall in line or be willing to throw themselves in the way of a bullet for the leader. All these guys have numbers and reg season winning records of first option, but do you really want just regular season wins and a couple playoff victories or do you want a title. Dirk has already proved he can't lead a team to the title. Melo as well as he's had several good teams. Durant isn't even the leader of his own team as Westbrook has stepped into that role. Wade is one of the few exceptions to being a second option, as like Kobe, I feel confident that he is able to lead me to title as the main guy. Mild mannered happy go lucky guys just aren't main guys on their teams.

Ever wonder why for the past 20 years titles have been won by the top guy at their respective position and a second option who is top 5 at their position? Save for the first title in Hou(second had drexler), and The 04 Pistons (who had 4 all-stars). Mike/Pip, Hakeem/Drex, Mike/Pip, Tim/David, Shaq/Kobe, Tim/Gino&Tony, Kobe/Pau.

Whether it is acknowledged or not, Whether I got to see it or not, I would never Truely feel like I had a real chance at the title if I'm a fan of a team with Tracy as my main leader, because more than likely they're going to have a bunch of softies who are willing to miss extensive time to injury be it severe or moderate, and never have the fight in them to go the distance for 7 games as the leader. Funny that the same team Tracy wasn't able to get past the first round is the same team that RON ARTEST was able to take past the first round and even nearly beating the to be Champs.

Scottie Pippen was a number one option on any other team besides the Bulls, gonna say he wasn't a number two. I'm not trying to say he isn't number 1 scoring option, just that he is not the main guy. He is not a leader, to be a min guy you have to be a leader. Look at all the great talent in the past 20 years and you will find comparible players talent wise and statisctially, but only the ones who are leaders who have that dog in them, that fight are the wons who can lead teams to titles as the main guy.

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NO, go watch a Heat game now,

NO, go watch a Heat game now, Wade is clearly a number two option. Don't set there and tell me he isn't when you can clearly watch him and see that he plays number two to Lebron, who has the mindset of a 2 himself but the ego of a 1. Actually I do think all 3 of those guys are #2's beside of the main main guys, unless they were to team up like Allen, Pierce, and Garnett. Can you honestly set there and say that you truely feel confident that you can win with Dirk, Melo, or Durant as your #1 dog. If a guy can't lead by example with physical toughness, mental toughness, and a fire, players aren't going to fall in line or be willing to throw themselves in the way of a bullet for the leader. All these guys have numbers and reg season winning records of first option, but do you really want just regular season wins and a couple playoff victories or do you want a title. Dirk has already proved he can't lead a team to the title. Melo as well as he's had several good teams. Durant isn't even the leader of his own team as Westbrook has stepped into that role. Wade is one of the few exceptions to being a second option, as like Kobe, I feel confident that he is able to lead me to title as the main guy. Mild mannered happy go lucky guys just aren't main guys on their teams.

disagree with almost all of this. Wade won a title as the man. He is without question a number 1 option. It just so happens the heat have 2 number 1 options playing alongside each other. But either guy would be the nuber 1 on just about any other team in the league. You say dirk and melo have already proven they cant lead a team to the title, but i disagree again. THey need help and lots of it, but if chauncey billups, paul pierce and tony parker can be the best player on a title team, no reason dirk and melo couldnt. ANd why do you put so much emphasis on winning a title shows how great a player is? DO you know how many greats and MVPs have not won titles? Karl malone never won a title so did he prove to you he was uncapable of doing so meanwhile paul pierce showed that he can? Great players dont allways win titles, doesnt make them any less great.

Ever wonder why for the past 20 years titles have been won by the top guy at their respective position and a second option who is top 5 at their position? Save for the first title in Hou(second had drexler), and The 04 Pistons (who had 4 all-stars). Mike/Pip, Hakeem/Drex, Mike/Pip, Tim/David, Shaq/Kobe, Tim/Gino&Tony, Kobe/Pau.

No idea what your point is here. Yes I do realize championship teams have great duos. What does this have to do with the topic at hand of TMac/Wade being 1st options?

Whether it is acknowledged or not, Whether I got to see it or not, I would never Truely feel like I had a real chance at the title if I'm a fan of a team with Tracy as my main leader, because more than likely they're going to have a bunch of softies who are willing to miss extensive time to injury be it severe or moderate, and never have the fight in them to go the distance for 7 games as the leader. Funny that the same team Tracy wasn't able to get past the first round is the same team that RON ARTEST was able to take past the first round and even nearly beating the to be Champs.

So tracy couldnt single handidly carry a team. DOesnt mean he wasnt a first option. I think your standards for a first option are way too high if you base it simply off playoff success. I dont think TMac is a guy that I would neccesarily want as the main piece of a title team, but again what does that have to do with him being a first option?

Here are some of Tmac's stats during his prime:

pts-rebounds-assits

27-8-5... 26-8-5... 32-7-6....28-6-6...26-6-6...24-7-5...25-5-7

thats 7 straight seasons of hands down superstar stats. ALso, putting stats aside, he was great. He took over games. You can see this just watching him play. Again, if tmac was not a first option, then neither is durant, melo, dirk or wade to name just a few. Just becasue you dont think he could lead a championship team doesnt change that.

Scottie Pippen was a number one option on any other team besides the Bulls, gonna say he wasn't a number two. I'm not trying to say he isn't number 1 scoring option, just that he is not the main guy. He is not a leader, to be a min guy you have to be a leader. Look at all the great talent in the past 20 years and you will find comparible players talent wise and statisctially, but only the ones who are leaders who have that dog in them, that fight are the wons who can lead teams to titles as the main guy.

Scottie Pippen was not a number 1 on every other team. His whole style was about defense and being versatile and being a team player. Even the year Jordan was retired in the 1994 playoffs phil jackson drew up the final shot for toni kukoc and pippen sat down and pouted. He was a great palyer, but along the same lines as a john stockton or a jason kidd, a guy who can dominate a game but isnt the go to player.

Also, again you are bringing up titles as if this conversation is about titles. Its not. Its about what guys can be number 1 options. I dont care if dirk cant win a title, he is a number 1 option. So was allen iverson and he never won a title.

The lake show2
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Tim Duncan isn't a rah rah

Tim Duncan isn't a rah rah guy and pretty happy go lucky mild manner guy, was he not a leader?

iguapops420
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No the conversation is about

No the conversation is about him being a main guy, I clearly said before I didn't mean it as a number 1 scoring option. I meant that he was overrated as a main guy. And sorry, but the Pippen led Jordan-less Bulls say differently about Scottie being a number1 optin. He made it out of the first round without mike, can MJ say the same. No, that's my point, the best number 2's are good number 1's in their own right. And again, I clearly said that T-Mac was a second option to someone superior using Kobe as a reference to the fact I wanted them to play together, which would be the only way he would win a championship. Beside of a player with equal talent but the mindset needed. Which was exactly the case with Mike and Scottie. The tandem I was referring to when saying I wanted Kobe and Mac together. Those were the statements I made, and u followed with your response.

And you still have no response to the fact the Mac himself talked about how he couldn't wait to be the next Kobe-Shaq, and that he was Yao's sidekick. Just the way Kobe was Shaq's sidekick in the media's eyes. Just because you are listed as a secobd option doesn't mean that you can't have the impact of a number 1. Just because Pippen's game was centered around playing team ball, didn't mean he couldn't do it better as a number 1. It's just a lot better when guys with that versatile skill-set are able to do a lot more for a team when asked to not just be a scorer. Theyare able to contribute much more. And let's not forget that Tracy wasn't exactly the most efficient scorer.

iguapops420
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And yes I do have higher

And yes I do have higher standards for a main guy. My point was that you have to have the best player at their position along with a top 5 at another to win a title no matter what teams look like during regular seasons. Those Bulls teams weren't that good outside of 4-5 guys,same for the Lakers, Rockets, Spurs. The fact that you have to have a bunch of near superstars team up together like the Heat have or the Celtics did, or have the best Alpha male superstar to win. MJ/Kobe/Shaq/Wade/Hakeem and guys who have the talent of 1's like Scottie/Pau/Shaq/Drexler are examples of Alpha's with top5 guys position wise. or team up on a team where there is no main option just players playing to their strengths like Bos with the big three or the 3 heat, or the Duncan/Parker/Gino teams.

And In regards to my higher standards of main guy, I expect nothing less than a title every year. Anything less than that is failure. If T-Mac can't deliever, then he isn't a main dude. Like I said before, I only think there are about 5-10 players in the L at a time during 4-5 year periods who are true main main guys. It's really a HOF type thing. Mac is HOF, but not as a winner.

It does all come down to my high standards, seeing as though I said Tracy was my 4th favorite player of all time for a reason, because he was as good as Kobe, just didn't have that extra push that made him a leader leaving him more Scottie than Mike was all I was trying to get at. Stats or no stats.

Oh, and yes I do blame extra work load on his injury problems. He was having to do too much year in and year out because of his teams overall injuries. Had he had his number 1 option (Yao) he wouldn't have had such a work load and his knees wouldn't have so many miles on them. Think about how many minutes he had to play during that time period. Just ask Kobe what having such a huge workload will do to your knees. Or ask KG for that matter.

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"And In regards to my higher

"And In regards to my higher standards of main guy, I expect nothing less than a title every year. Anything less than that is failure. If T-Mac can't deliever, then he isn't a main dude. Like I said before, I only think there are about 5-10 players in the L at a time during 4-5 year periods who are true main main guys. It's really a HOF type thing. Mac is HOF, but not as a winner."

Does that mean the following players aren't number 1 options:

Kevin Durant

Amare Stoudemire

LeBron James

Derrick Rose

Carmelo Anthony

Dirk Nowitzki

Allen Iverson

GIlbert Arenas (in prime)

Vince Carter (in prime)

Karl Malone

Kevin Garnett (in prime)

Chris Webber

And theres probably plenty of others out there who have been great number 1 options without a championship

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honestly this convo is now

honestly this convo is now bouncing all over the place. Fact is tmac was a number 1 option. Regardless if you think he was the ideal number 1 option, he was and he was one of the very best number 1 options in the game. Being a number 1 option and being the ideal number 1 who wins titles all by yourself are two different things. You said it yourself, your expectations of what a unmber 1 is way too high. I mean you honestl ydont even think wade is a number 1 option?

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i cant believe some of u guys

i cant believe some of u guys are saying tmac in his prime was overrated.... r u serious???

how was he overrated?

he was a top 5 player easily back then, no question

thats like saying iveron is overrated becuz he never really had great playoff sucess and never won a ring

tracy was a two time scoring champ, how the hell is that overrated??? and his magic teams werent the most talented, like llperez said, his teams were the underdogs in playoff series

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