Top 5 PG?
A few years ago, if you asked who are the top PGs in the L, everybody would say Rose, Paul, Williams, Rondo, Nash, and Parker. But now that Williams has fallen off, Nash is seemingly done, and Rondo/Rose haven't been healthy for a while now; who are the top-5 PGs in the game today?
If I had to choose the top-5 PGs in the game at this exact moment, this would be my list:
5. John Wall
4. Damian Lillard
3. Russell Westbrook
2. Stephen Curry
1. Chris Paul
Tony Parker has been consistent year after year. No way I'd take John Wall of Lillard before Parker.
Also, I feel Westbrook is a better all-around player than Curry.
No way Lillard is on that list, and even having Wall on it is debatable. My list would be more like,
5. John Wall
4. Stephen Curry
3. Tony Parker
2. Russel Westbrook
1. Chris Paul
Now if Rose and Rondo were healthy they would replace Wall and Curry.
While I like Tony Parker, there is nothing he's done that is at a higher level than Lillard aside from FG%. Even then, their efficiency numbers are very close.
Points per shot:
So even in Parker's biggest strength, it's not better than Lillard's.
Lillard averages fewer turnovers per game while playing 16% more minutes than Parker. He's also shooting 91% from the FT line compared to Parker's dismal 69%. Lillard is also shooting 42% from the 3PT line and makes 3 per game while Parker is shooting 35% and barely takes over 1 per game.
Their assists numbers are close and Lillard is a better rebounder than Parker. And we both know that neither Parker or Lillard are shut down defenders.
I just don't see how Parker is any better than Lillard.
Parker is a leader and has shown the impact he makes on the floor. Damian Lillard has not done that yet (even though the Blazers are 17-4). Lillard is good but Tony Parker is just better right now...
Parker manages a more complex offensive system than Lillard. Lillard mainly worries about getting shots, Parker uses multiple screens and sets within a single possession in order to get the most high percentage shot possible. Obviously, that says a lot about the Spurs coaching- while that is true the fact remains that Parker operates with much more responsibility than Lillard does.
While Parker manages the game more than Lillard, that doesn't mean that it's by a large margin.
Parker's USG% is at 27.1
Lillard's USG% is at 24.9
Meaning, if the Spurs get 100 possessions during a game and so do the Blazers, Parker would only be featured in 2 more plays than Lillard.
Again, slightly better but not significantly enough to say he's much better at it.
Usage rate only indicates how many shots a player takes while on the floor. It's a very overrated stat that is only useful when gauging how much of a chucker a player is. (See Rudy Gay's useage rate).
I respect your opinion, but completely disagree with you. Parker essentially runs every play. Sometimes Giniboli manages the offense, but he's inferior compared to TP. Lillard touches the ball a lot, but Aldridge is the real focal point of the Blazer offense.
dude when players are on the court all that usg and basketball numbers doesnt matter all that matter is who helps the team win more and to be honest parker, paul, westbrook are at the top until rondo comes back and joins that elite 4
Now Tony Parker and John Wall.
We all know Parker's strength is his efficiency and ability to take care of the ball. Parker's points per shot, a direct indication to a player's efficiency is 1.25 while Wall's is at a slightly lower amount, 1.18.
Of course, Wall averages more turnovers than Parker, actually, he averages 23.5% more turnovers than Parker but he also plays 18.5% more minutes. Which, in turn, isn't much of a difference. At this rate, if Parker played 37.7 minutes per game, he would average about 3.1 turnovers to Wall's 3.3 per game.
Now we look at everything else:
Wall is a much better defender than Parker, not only by his blocks and steals numbers but the eye test. Wall averages 2.3 SPG compared to Parker's 0.5 (or 0.7 if you use per 37.7 minute stats), significantly less. Not to mention, Wall averages over double the blocks that Parker averages per 37.7 minutes.
Don't even get me started on their assists per game and rebounds per game, where Wall towers over Parker in both season averages and per 37.7 MPG.
Wall also gets to the line much more often than Parker and is shooting 85% compared to Parker's 69%.
Again, there isn't much that Parker does that is significantly better than Wall while Wall towers Parker in the other categories.
You use some good numbers to make an argument, but than you leave a few out that may hurt it. Have to get this off my chest, but blocks, for PG's, is fairly obselete in determining one being better than the other. A better jumper, maybe, just not a better defender in that John Wall gets a block every other game. Steals is one thing, just leave out blocks, lol.
Now, here are a few stats one could use to make a case for Parker over Wall:
- True Shooting %: Parker 56.5%, Wall 51.3%. That factors in every type of shot, so, Parker more effective scorer)
- 2-pt FG % :Parker is at 54% while Wall is at 43.8%. If you are going to balk at Parker's almost 70% FT shooting this season, this is a big standout between them. Plus, Parker shot 84.5% FT lastseason and 77% FT in the play-offs last year. Know this post is all about "the now", just saying, I think Tony Parker may close the gap given this relatively small sample size of games played thus far.
- Winning %: Tony Parker is the best player on a team that is 15-4. John Wall's team is 9-11. Indeed, the Spurs are a more talented team than the Wizards. However, do you think the Spurs would be winning as many games with John Wall? I am not so sure. Parker knows how to run a team and he is much more of a scoring threat, for whatever John Wall is averaging in ppg and apg. Experience can matter and in the case of these two, think it definitely favors Parker right now. Could use NBA Finals appearances as well, including one by Parker last year, just think this says enough.
Every game is 48 minutes and all, just sometimes ppg, apg, rpg, spg and bpg do not tell the entire story. Winning matters and while Tony Parker may have fallen into a dream situation in San Antonio, does not stop him from still killing it. He really is not much different from last year, playing a tad fewer minutes. The Spurs are still awesome, he is still their best player. That has to mean something. I know that Wall and even Lillard have improved, just hard to say either of them help their team win more than Parker does right now as the player a team is built around (because we both know, Portland is LaMarcus Aldridge's team right now).
This season has gained some steam and both are maybe in a discussion to get a top 5 spot. However, does experience not count as something that could maybe see how well they do at game 82 as opposed to game 20? Wall and Lillard may have both taken jumps, but it is hard to say that they are better than a tried and true All-Star level PG. Who is still, after all, only 31, not 35. In a close race of overall efficiency, which these players ultimately all are, I think Parker's experience and consistency over the years counts for something. It would be one thing if he had dropped off greatly, that simply is not the case. Hard to say either Wall or Lillard are better with that in mind.
Westbrook may seem like a better all-around player when compared to Curry but in fact, there isn't much of a difference.
Stephen Curry is better than Westbrook in the following categories:
Westbrook is better than Curry in the following categories:
REB - 4.6 - 4.2
Even when it comes down to defensive efficiency, Westbrook gives up 102 points per 100 possessions while Stephen Curry gives up 103 points per 100 possessions. Not to mention, OKC is ranked 11th in opponents PPG and GS is ranked 12th. Nearly identical.
I gave you a +1, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion. Westbrook is head and shoulders above Currry on defense. Head and Shoulders. Don't have stats, just the eye test. While Thabo is OKC's main perimeter defender, Westbrook is arguably just as good at guarding 1s and 2s.
you look at the numbers way to closely my brother. It seems like you tally up numbers right after every game, plus those categories like effiency and usage. Steph is on a team with considerable talent, but they are only 2 games over 500. He is obviously the best shooting pg, but he gets into shooting frenzy mode too much for me. Even if he can scorch the nets he still needs to run the offense better and distribute better. He averages 8 assists but when you watch him it could be over 10. Plus it isnt the best thing too average a 2-1 assists-turnover ratio if some want to consider him a top 5 pg which i do not. If he could boosts those assists and stop throwing the ball away right after he does something good i would by into him more.
With westbrook he sometimes doesnt pass enough like curry but with curry its harder to comprehend. He has a all star power forward and a solid center down low. Throw it in the post is what i yell at the screen when i watch curry.
Also with westbrook a better defender i know atleast after a bad decision he will play tough defese, even if he gets caught looking away sometimes. With curry i have to worry about a bad shot or pass then him get burned every which way on defense. Pg is the 1st line of defense. Cant be a top pg if your not helping your teammates out in that regard.
In this era of basketball curry is one of the league's best just not with paul, westbrook, parker, or Rondo. Curry is more like one of the best of the rest. Also I know Rondo is hurt but lets not act like we forgot how good he is, come on he did more than curry with less atheleticism and old age.
I just think numbers don't tell the whole story. Parker's experience and quality play under pressure makes me take him over quality, but not yet proven, young PG. Yeah, I know, it's pretty subjective...
I'm glad you brought up the ability to play under pressure!
This season, in clutch situations (NBA.com/stats):
- 4 - 3
- 66% FG
- Zero 3PA
- 25% FT
- -1.1 +/-
- 3.6 PPCS (clutch situation)
- 8 - 2
- 50% FG
- 63% 3P
- 92% FT
- 3.6 +/-
- 4.1 PPCS (clutch situation)
So even in clutch situations, Lillard is as good, if not better than Parker. Not to mention, Lillard is 23 years old while Parker is 31.
Your last stat is the one that's telling. If you're asking why anyone would take Parker over Lillard for RIGHT NOW, it's that Lillard hasn't been doing it for long enough. I'm a big fan of Lillard's game, but I'm really trying not to get ahead of myself. If I needed one PG for one game, and I had to choose between Lillard and Parker, it would be Parker. He's done it more consistently over a longer period of time.
did you just say if not better. Did you just make an incenuation about a guy who hasn't even helped his team win a play off series? Remember that shot in the finals thats clutch brother. Throw all those mesmorizing analyzing stats at people who who do not know the game. Parker champion thats the only stat needed, 4 time champ at that.
I feel like it's just too early in the year to be making these kinds of comparisons. We already know that Russell Westbrook is a very good defender and that Curry is a very poor defender. They will return to their means.
Same with Tony Parker's free throw shooting. He's been a 75-80% free throw shooter the past 5 years, and shot 85% from the FT line last year. I find it hard to believe that he's suddenly become a poor free throw shooter.
While I dont agree with you list, I AM ENTHRALLED that TOL-23 came with a response/stats/numbers for his stance. So +1 for everyone! oompa!
Don't count Kyrie out yet. Yes he is struggling with a new coach, new offensive, and new players but when he figures it out he is flat out amazing. He has already lit wall up for 42 this season and out played Paul and Lawson as of late. He is the most gifted pg offensively in the league. Handle, jumper, post game, left hand, midrange, long range, and endless moves.
at the moment that list is pretty good.
A lot of good stuff in here. Here's my top 15 just for kicks. Really shows how deep this position is in the NBA, especially with arguably top 5 PGs in Rose and Rondo being hurt. Crazy how I couldn't even fit Deron Williams in here. Just a few years ago he was automatic top 5, along with Steve Nash...
1. Chris Paul
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Stephen Curry
4. Tony Parker
5. Damian Lillard
6. John Wall
7. Jrue Holiday
8. Kyrie Irving
9. Ty Lawson
10. Eric Bledsoe
11. Jeff Teague
12. Mike Conley
13. Ricky Rubio
14. Brandon Jennings
15. Goran Dragic
This has been a joy to read. Hats off to TOL-23. My top five would be the same.
excellent statistical breakdown. I like how TOL23 stuck to his guns and provided validation of his statements. still, stats dont tell the whole story but they do give us something to measure against when things get thick.
For the number gurus on here they might not agree, but Russ is the best PG in the league.
Russ plays both ends combined better than any PG in the league, his percentages and all that crap may not be great but guess what is? His teams record dude wins period, Thunder have the 3rd best record in the L and thats with Russ coming off a big injury!
How about this watch an OKC game with Russ playing and without him playing and tell me what his + and - would be then lol probably +1000000000000000.
People will never understand his presence for OKC, OKC has had the best record in the league the past few years on top of running through the West in the playoffs.
And another thing i'm tired of is this disease going around that everyone is attracting called the CP3 automatically #1 pg in the world. How is this possible year in and year out?
Dude never falls to not even #2 ever, but you got a guy like Tony Parker who is sometimes left out of the top 5 by many.
Cp3 is awesome so are his numbers but dude cant win he has to be held accountable for that! Last year the Clips were supposed to be all mighty and got bounced in the first round! Cp3 took no blame at all, now the Clips are falling apart this year as of now and its all Docs fault or Blakes or whoever bur not Cp3 but yes he does have part of the blame for losing, he is the leader period.
And I wonder what the excuses will be this ywar because everyone knows the Clips cant be OKC, San Antonio, and possibly Houston so what will the excuses be?
CP3 will go out some nights and have monster games and ppl will be like he the bwst pg but dude dissapears alot some games, Russ never dissapears whether he's jacking a million shots or whatever the case may be and thats another reason I have Russ the best PG dudes heart shiiiiitttsssss on any PG in the league.
CP3 doesnt have that much heart evidence by his dissapearing acts no diss to him but CP3 homers and there are plenty of em need to realize the truth and accept come with the PER, % and all that other crap and I will give you Russ's regular season wins and losses and playoff wins and losses. Thats what counts at the end of the day.
Sorry, but there in no better pg in the league than Paul..
To each is own, but I think not having Tony Parker in the top five is crazy. He's been a top five MVP candidate the last two seasons and was a few plays away from taking the NBA Finals trophy out of LeBron James' hands, yet he's not even top five at his position?
Parker has been clutch consistently throughout his career and on the biggest of stages, and you're ranking Damian Lillard over him in that area after playing 20-25 regular season games? Lillard hasn't been to the playoffs yet. Was it not that long ago that we watched Parker make LeBron look silly in the *NBA FINALS* and make a huge shot to ice the game?
Then it's like you focused big on what Lillard does better than Parker, but didn't make a big deal about what Parker does better than Lillard. You mentioned Parker shoots a higher FG%, but mentioned it as quietly as a mouse. Parker is shooting 53% compared to Lillard's 40%. That's a HUGE difference. And how convenient to leave out the fact Parker shots over 60% in the restricted area and over 50% in the non-restricted. Lillard doesn't come CLOSE to shooting that well in those areas. Parker is also a better mid-range shooter. The only reason Lillard averages more points per shot is because he's a better three point shooter and takes more attempts. We all know that's not Parker's game, but he *can* make that shot.
Then let's be real... Parker is the best player on the Spurs now. He's THAT guy and he has been the last few seasons. Lillard is the second fiddle to Lamarcus Aldridge, who's basically been in the conversation as the best power forward in basketball the last two seasons.
Lillard can ball, but he's not on Parker's level yet. Neither is John Wall. You don't need a ton of statistics to tell you that.
You are completely and utterly missing the point here.
Everything you brought up about last year's playoffs does nothing for me. I'm not talking about who's been better for the last 6-8 months. I'm talking about who's been better for the first quarter of the season. I never said Lillard has had a better career or more playoff experience or will even have a better career than Parker. All I said is that at this very moment, Lillard has had a better season than Parker. Now, if you can't agree with that, I don't know what can change your mind.
Quite frankly, shooting % and points per shot go hand in hand. The one strength that Parker has over Lillard is his shooting % but even then, it does not signify that Parker is more efficient, because he isn't. So even in Parkers one and only strength over Lillard, it is pushed aside because Lillard matches and beats it.
Let's be real here, if Lillard were on the Spurs instead of Parker, Lillard would be THAT guy and we both know this. Same could be said if Parker was on the Blazers, so you can't bring up the whole "he's the best on his team". If that's the case, Kemba Walker is a better player than Dwyane Wade because Walker is the best player on his team and Wade is not.
The point is, at this very moment, taking into account this season, Lillard has had a better year than Parker in nearly every possible statistical manner. Do you not agree?
These arguments about who was better for a stretch of ~25 games of semi-completely meaningless basketball is just nonsensical.
We have seen players have great stretches before from the likes of all sorts of mediocre players, like that year Devin Harris was an All Star.
I understand the point of what you are trying to do, but when you name the topic "Top 5 PG" plenty of people just breeze through the comments and say respond as if we are talking about the 5 best PGs in the league, because that would be a legitimate argument.
Arguments like this are how we start having discussions about Jeff Teague being an All Star, and in this case it results in players like John Wall being compared to Tony Parker.
Maybe Wall or Lillard have put up better stats then Parker, but the Spurs coast in many regular season games, and Poppovich doesn't play Parker when his team is up by 30. Wall is battling to win games against the awful teams in the East. Parker is clearly, crystal clearly, the superior player. This year, last year, any year. Instead of bringing up all these minute weighted stats, just look at PER. Parker 21.7. Wall 20.9. Lillard 20.08.
It usually is a pretty solid gauge to see how things might turn out. Truthfully, could see Tony Parker having a much easier time in Lillard's shoes as opposed to Lillard in Parker's. It is hard to just assume that one player will be putting up the exact same numbers, or better, in a different situation. In this case, I think the player with experience would be much better off than the 2nd year guy who still has issues scoring inside the arc.
Hate to bring up the past, but this is just like when you said "I think we can all agree that if Malone/Stockton played in the 80s, they would have won a title and if Isaiah Thomas played in the 90s, he would not have a title". In this context, Damian Lillard may be the best player on the Spurs if he were in San Antonio right now, but would the Spurs be as good of a team? I find that pretty questionable and I do not think everyone would agree that would be the case. I would tend to think if one could step into the others shoes, through the first quarter of the season, than Parker would probably do the better job helping his team win.
I watch a lot of Portland and Damian Lillard is a cold blooded shooter, much better than Parker from long range. However, as an all-around basketball player, leader and floor general, think the advantage still definitely goes to Tony Parker. Wall and Lillard are catching up, just also noticed in your original post you had something to say about every former PG mentioned in the top 5 that was not there anymore except for Tony Parker. You may find it safe to say that Wall and Lillard are better, plus find stats that you feel corroborate this. I really appreciate that, actually. What I am not a fan of is making statements like "Lillard would be THAT guy and we both know this", when in actuality, it could definitely be debated heavily as to whether that he would do so at the level of Tony Parker. I think the past has to play a role in determining this and that is where Parker has a pretty significant advantage if you are talking about playing at a high level when things matter in high stakes situations.