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Time to give up on Hayward?

butidonthavemoney
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Time to give up on Hayward?

Hayward, Hayward, Hayward. Missing free-throws, dunks... We'd all hate to admit that all of his doubters were right in saying that he was a wasted pick, Babbitt was better, or that there were at least 20 players drafted after him that would be better.

But nay worry Hayward supporters. The skill is still there. He's only suffering from the same confidence issues that have befallen Jazz players amany...

I remember when CJ Miles was a young'un. He was afraid of the ball. Wherever the ball was, he would always run to the opposite side. Jerry Sloan is one intimidating dude, and it was obvious that CJ was just trying to prove that he could be in the game without turning the ball over or missing a shot. This reserved style of play lead to this classic Jerry Sloan quote: "I don't care if he's 19 or 30. If he's going to be on the floor in the NBA, he's got to be able to step up and get after it. We can't put diapers on him one night, and a jockstrap the next night. It's just the way it is."

A full season later, injuries hit the Jazz like Sheen's mistress. CJ was forced into a role where he had to produce, and he became more aggressive. This is when he began to show his full potential. He was creating off the dribble, shooting the ball well, and knowing where he was supposed to be in Sloan's system (no easy task). But then the Jazz traded for Kyle Korver, and Miles was sent back to the bench where he would remain for the rest of the season.

In his fourth season, Miles would start in 72 games for the Jazz alongside Ronnie Brewer. His confidence offensively would continue to grow, but he was easily the worst defender on the Jazz roster. This led to more criticism from the soon-to-be hall of fame coach, and a very disappointing postseason performance.

In season five, Miles was sent back to the bench, where his confidence would quickly disappear again. This led to a MEGA drought offensively, and a heartbreaking rant on Twitter where he apologized to the fans for his performance. As the season progressed, he would continue to struggle shooting the ball, but he improved his defensive ability immensely. At the end of the season, Andrei Kirilenko was injured and this gave Miles the chance to show what he could do in the postseason. In a starting role, Miles provided a STRONG defensive presence against Carmelo Anthony and a solid 3rd/4th option offensively. His emergence was one of the primary reasons that Utah pulled off the upset against Denver.

In his sixth season (this one), Miles has become an excellent player and the leader of the second unit. His offensive game is still inconsistent, and Sloan still gets on him from time to time, but his defense is much improved and he provides the Jazz with a dynamic scorer/creator off the bench.

Andrei Kirilenko is the same way. His confidence issues have been well documented, even leading to a tearful interview after a loss in the playoffs. However, last season something snapped. He's been a catalyst and a MAJOR contributor for the Utah Jazz. Even though he's not scoring at a high clip he provides energy, defense, blocks, steals, length, and a fantastic passer for Jerry Sloan and the Utah Jazz. Many people thought that Kirilenko was washed up because he wasn't performing well, but now he is responsible for a huge amount of Utah's success.

And now Mr. Hayward is struggling bad. Only one point in his last three starts isn't good. Many people might see that and write Hayward off as a bust, but that would be a mistake. He's playing with Deron Williams (strong-voiced leader) and for Jerry Sloan (same), and there's a lot of pressure on him to perform well. CJ Miles and Andrei Kirilenko went through the same thing, and are now playing very, very well. Hayward is smart, talented, hard working, and a special player. Utah has the best coaching staff in the NBA, the best point guard in the NBA and Hayward is only just submerging his head in that kind of leadership. The controversial pick out of Butler is going to pay off. Count on it.


RUDEBOY_
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I agree with you about

I agree with you about Hayward..I love his all round skills..But its going to take him time to get use to the speed of the game and work on getting stronger..

I'd never forget how bad Stockton made Kobe looked when he 1st came into the league...I can remember in his rookie year Hinrich had the ball stolen from him 3 times in the 3rd quarter of a game against Detroit and the coach sat him down...Now Hinrich is 1 of the league best defender..Not all rookies can come in and be successful right away..

JNixon
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I said it during the draft.

I said it during the draft. He would start slow for the 1st season or possibly 2, but by his 3rd or 4th season, I think he'll emerge into a role player. He reminds of Francisco Garcia, and Garcia developed at the same trajectory. Let's hope he has better luck than him, but Garcia did benefit by playing for a bad team with limited depth on the wing, so Hayward's circumstance is somewhat different.

CodySLC
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Your right. He's struggling,

Your right. He's struggling, but i'm sure he feels alot of pressure being a lotto pick but also being put right into the rotation on a top 4 team in the west. He needs a year or two to develop but the talent is there. I could see him becoming something like a Shane Battier type player.

butidonthavemoney
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Thanks

Thanks for reading guys.

RUDEBOY___ - Same goes for Evan Turner this season. The adjustment period for some rookies is much longer than others. Turner was tagged with the "NBA Ready" label, but the Sixers were an awkward fit for him. Now everybody is saying that they knew Turner would be a bad player, and Cousins or Favors should have been the pick at 2. Those people are going to look very, very silly when Turner gets his feet under him.

Iggy - I understand the Garcia comparison. Obviously I want Hayward to be better than Garcia, but the similarities are definitely there. Both were good shooters, passers, movers (is that a scouting term?), and had similar builds coming out of college. I think the biggest difference is Hayward's toughness. He is not afraid to body up his man and play defense, he is a solid rebounder and he is surprisingly good at drawing contact and finishing at the rim.

butidonthavemoney
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The

CodySLC - The Shane Battier comparison is a strange one. I understand where you are getting it from, as Hayward could develop into a Battier-type role player, that does a lot of the intangibles that help a team win. However, the two play very distinctive styles of basketball, so I'm not sure Battier is the best comparison.

Counting Stars
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Jerry Sloan is not known for

Jerry Sloan is not known for giving rookies a big role right off the bat. Even Deron Williams didn't have a huge amount of success in the first half of his rookie season and look where he is now.

Let's not forget Hayward would have been a junior in college this year, so he's still really young. He'll be fine given time.

Mr. 19134
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Thanks nomoney as soon as I

Thanks nomoney as soon as I read your well written post I immediatly thought this is the same fate that has befallen Evan Turner. Everybody knew going into the draft that Turner and Iggy wouldn't be a good fit but the dumb Sixers never traded Iggy and Doug Collins is an old school teaching coach much like Sloan and Larry Brown. Evan Turner is playing mistake free basketball, and doing everything in his power to make sure he don't turn the ball over. BTW a missed shot is basically a turn over so in turn Turner isn't even shooting the ball when he get's in because he don't wanna be taken right bacc out if he misses it. The skill is their tho. He shows flashes of his all around game every time on the court and it is obvious watching him with the ball in his hands that he's a natural ball handler which is rare for a 6'7 player. Hayward is very similar.

As for Hayward I think he will develop into a Mike Dunleavy type player with better defense and more athleticism...I didn't think Babbit was a better fit I thought Xavier Henry was the best pick for Utah. But Hayward can do more things with the basketball then Henry can.

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I did not think Hayward was

I did not think Hayward was be this bad but I think at best he will be a role player in in years 3 and 4. The Garcia comparison seems about right. A role player who can give you spot minutes as a starter.

The UnderKanter
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I don't know. I really hated

I don't know. I really hated that Jazz pick. And now it seems that I was right. CJ Miles was picked in the second round, AK was picked late in the first round, while Hayward was picked in the lottery. Lottery players shouldn't be having these type of performances unless they are busts. I would not say Evan Turner is a bust though, he is in a different situation than Hayward is in. I really think Coach Sloan should start Miles while Bell is nursing his groin back to health. I think Miles deserves to start, for all the hard work and stellar play. I don't why Sloan keeps going to Hayward when one of his usual starters is hurt (Usually AK, or Bell) And he keeps underperforming. Time for Miles to start.

Meditated States
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It is better to go to a bad team for some guys

They need everygame to not matter as much,and be allowed to play through mistakes. When the team is fighting for seeding or playoff births they don't have time to wait on younger guys. He will get better by seasons end if he gets more playing time.

Toronto16
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I saw Adam Morrison miles

I saw Adam Morrison miles before the tournament started.

Hitster
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Number 9 was a reach for

Number 9 was a reach for Hayward in my opinion but he is still very young and if Coach Sloan cannot make something of him then could anyone. He hasn't impressed so far but we've got to give him more time.

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It is way too early to give

It is way too early to give up on him, but I'm not like others who want to give guys 3, 4, or 5 years to development. I think there are some players who just reach the height of their playing ability in high school or college. There have been numerous guys who were great college players and drafted high that couldn't adjust to the NBA game. With the way the NBA is a player has to want to get better, they can't depend solely on the coaches to make them better, because with all the traveling and other stuff its not possible. It is like guys who can't shoot a jumper after four years of college, then they play another two in the NBA and still can't shoot, that tells me some guys will just never become a shooter, there becomes a point when a player cant improve, because he maxed out his abilities.

butidonthavemoney
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Hmmm...

Thanks for reading everybody!

Landshark - Good point. Like Jerry Sloan said in training camp, "He's going to be a rookie all season."

Mr. 19134 - Exactly. He just needs to find his niche with the team. He's basically in the process of changing his game to help his current team win games (something that will make him a much better player in the future). Skill of Turner's caliber doesn't just disappear.

sheltwon3 - That's a fair prediction. Most people in the Jazz organization have higher expectations for him though.

dwilljazz8 - It doesn't matter where a player was picked. Jerry Sloan isn't going to give a player minutes just because he was drafted in the lottery. Calling him a bust at this point in his career is ignorant. CJ Miles is playing great off the bench. Like I've already said, his confidence is a fragile thing. Utah needs scoring off the bench because as much as Price, Hayward, Evans, Fesenko and Elson provide for the Jazz; they aren't polished creators offensively.

scout4real - In some cases, yes (thinking of Darko). Other rookies excel on good teams, when they wouldn't be as useful on a bad team (Gary Forbes). Some rookies just make bad teams into good teams (Derrick Rose). It's all circumstantial. Makes me wonder about some players like Hasheem Thabeet. What kind of team would he have been successful on?

churchboy1 - That's a horrible comparison. Morrison and Hayward don't play anything alike.

Hitster - Then we're in agreement.

Sonny Red - This is the same mindset of many teams in the NBA. Probably why so many players don't pan out. If a player is smart and talented, then he'll find a way to help the team win games. Your point is well-taken though, and it is something that you have to consider about college talent. But I don't feel like it applies to players like Barnes, Turner or Hayward.

~~~~~~~~~~

Jerry Sloan knows people will look at stat sheets and see that the 20-year-old rookie went scoreless in his last two games. (Which equaled his offensive production in the previous two games that he didn't play in, for those keeping track.) But while Sloan was grumpy over the Jazz's pitiful start Saturday and didn't specifically comment about Hayward, he spoke positively of how the high-profile rookie handled himself against Vince Carter on Friday. "I thought he did well," Sloan said. "Didn't back away from him. He stayed in there and battled him a little bit. That's how you make yourself better - if you get beat, you get beat. ... Just go play."

Deron Williams recently admitted Hayward is in a tough position, seeing as he was a high pick (No. 9 overall) but was added to a playoff team with good players. D-Will also praised "G" for working hard. Andrei Kirilenko believes Hayward, who only took three shots in his two weekend starts will improve as the butterflies go away. "He was trying. He was playing aggressive. He was playing hard. That's all you can ask from him," Kirilenko said prior to Saturday's game. "He's worrying about results. He's worrying about teammates. He doesn't really realize which is good shot, which is not. I think it just come. It's just a matter of how many games he has played."

Source

The UnderKanter
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Yes it does matter where he

Yes it does matter where he was picked, nomoney, being picked early means that team has a lot of trust in you to play well and to prove your worth. (Being picked earlier means they have more trust then another player who picked in the same draft but later) Yes it is true that Sloan isn't going to give him minutes just because he was picked in the lottery. Yet that's exactly what Sloan has done. 4 times now he has started Hayward when he could have started Miles instead. (AK was hurt for one game at beginning of season and Hayward started, when Miles probably should have started instead. Then recently Bell has hurt for 3 straight games. All 3 of them Hayward started when Miles could and should have started instead) That's a lot of faith that Sloan is putting in him, and Hayward needs to take those chances and prove his worth. He hasn't. I really hope that the next time Bell or AK is hurt, Sloan goes to Miles, he deserves it.

When a rookie is given the starting role (it does not matter for how many games or for the reason), he needs to relish it, treat it like it is golden and really show the Coach that you deserve to play more. Hayward has not done that and he has received numerous chances probably more than he should have. I still think he is a bust, and I knew it even before he was drafted.

Wesley Matthews was in the same position last year, and what did he do? He was excellent and showed he had a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. (The Jazz even did a trade so that Matthews could start!!!) Hayward needs to do exactly that, even though he probably doesn't have a chip on his shoulder. He should still go out there and prove something. If he was really playing hard but his shot wasn't falling then he should at least be playing good D. But he's not. He's playing horrible D. He could even take a charge once in a while but its like he just stands around. And you say he didn't quit against Carter. He GOT MANHANDLED. Not just once but every time he played him on D. That is backing down in my book no matter who you are or what excuse you have. Nor can make a shot to save his life and you call him a shooter. And I have not been impressed. And this is coming from someone who has watched every Jazz game so far and have been praying for him to finally show up. I can't keep doing this and receiving nothing in return. Its time Hayward shows up or goes to the D-league.

If its true that Hayward is not a bust then I really hope he takes shooting lessons from Jeff Hornacek in the offseason. He really needs to fine tune his game. Or heck even during the all star break would be nice.

butidonthavemoney
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Uhhh

Have you read anything that I've written?

First of all, Matthews is a different player than Hayward. Matthews came out of school after four years and was a very confident player. Hayward has confidence issues, which was the ENTIRE point of my post. Seriously, did you read anything?

Second, Sloan isn't starting Hayward over Miles because Hayward is better than Miles. Miles is coming off the bench because we need a scorer off the bench. That's obvious.

Third, no it doesn't matter where he was picked. Sloan never said he expected Hayward to be a great player during his first season. He said that he had talent (which he still does), but was a rookie. Most people said that Hayward wouldn't be a big contributator during his first season anyway.

Fourth, and this is important. I didn't say that Hayward didn't back down against Carter, that was Jerry Sloan. So basically, you're saying that Sloan doesn't know toughness when he sees it. Hayward did get abused by Carter, but he put the effort in and Jerry Sloan knows that.

Sloan does have faith in Hayward, but unlike you he knows that Hayward needs time to reach his full potential.

The UnderKanter
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If he's not gonna be a

If he's not gonna be a contributor during his first season then why did the Jazz pick him so early. To me lottery means player who should contribute right away not in 3 or 4 years from now. To me that screams 2nd round or late first. If they knew he wasn't gonna contribute right away but they still wanted him then they should have traded down. Let me put it to you this way. If a player is picked in the late first round and is playing better than a lottery pick. Who you gonna rate higher. The late first round pick, right? Who would you pick first if the draft was redone. The late first round pick once again. For example, who's better Darren Collison or Hasheem Thabeet? Collison obviously. I know they play different positions but that doesn't matter. The concept is still the same. If you know a player is not going to contribute his first year and there is someone who is going to and would still work for your team, then you obviously pick the player who will contribute his first year. Henry, or Babbitt both would have been better picks than Hayward. And Henry has less experience than Hayward. Like I said before if the Jazz wanted Hayward so bad then they should have traded down for him. He never should have went in the lottery.

If you don't put the effort in defense you get abused. Plain and simple as that. I know Jerry Sloan knows toughness. But I wanted Hayward to be taking some charges, being physical. I didn't see any of that. To me not doing those things shows no effort.

I know he needs time but I've seen enough. I want him in the D-league so can learn some more things and get more playing time. I am not giving up on him, I just want to see him improve and excel. Right now the only way he can do that is if he is sent to the D-league.

butidonthavemoney
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What

What about Derrick Favors? Paul George?

Teams don't always draft in the lottery to get the quickest contributator. They draft for the best talent. Hayward is a great fit for the Jazz system, and that's why Kevin O'Connor drafted him. You say that you wouldn't draft somebody who isn't ready to contribute in the lottery. Well that's you. And you are not an NBA GM. Professionals seem to know the deal, and they've been drafting for potential for a long time. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Hayward will pay off.

Vince Carter is a veteren scorer (and a pretty great one at that). Hayward did try to get up in his face. He didn't give up on a single play. I saw that. Jerry Sloan saw that. He was simply a rookie who was overmatched. FYI, he did try to draw a charge, but he was in the restricted area.

The D-League isn't the best option for Hayward. You have to realize that the skill is there. What's holding him back is his confidence. It's more beneficial for him to be around the team and catch a few breaks offensively. All he really needs is a good game to get him going.

And now you say you aren't giving up on him? That was the whole point of my post.

IndianaBasketball
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We're talking about a 20 year

We're talking about a 20 year old rookie who hasn't even played a half of season of games...

It's all mental with him. He just needs to be confident and stop thinking so much. He's trying not to make mistakes and it still looks like the game is moving a little fast for him... I mean, it's not like he's played a lot. Once those things go away and he just starts playing ball, he'll be good. He's going to get it. I don't agree with and barely understand anything dwilljazz8 ever says.

Mike23456
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he is goin to be a good all

he is goin to be a good all around player but he jus really came out to early

The UnderKanter
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Yeah I realize he has talent

Yeah I realize he has talent and I do see the potential but he has lost some confidence in his shot. Probably because of much tougher competition that I do not think he is ready for quite yet. The reason why I think he should go to the D-league is two-fold. One his confidence can increase significantly because he is facing lesser competition than that of the NBA therefore his shot should fall in more times than not. Also because if he goes to a team like the Utah D-league team then he could learn their system better and come back much improved. CJ Miles took quite a long time to develop the confidence that he has now. (4 and 1/2 years) That is a super long time and the Jazz invested a ton of faith in him in his earlier years. And now it is finally paying off. But what if Miles gained that confidence fairly quickly because he went to a place like the d-league and was able to improve and develop that confidence. He comes back in his second or third year and he is producing at the same clip as last year, and continues improving after that. Which means at that rate he probably could have been a starter by last year instead of a fringe starter like he is now. The same thing can happen to Hayward if he develops that confidence early. He does need to have one good game but unfortunately I don't think that game will come anytime soon. With each game he looks more and more lost. The only way I think he could increase his confidence is if he goes to the D-league as I have already explained countless times. Maybe he shouldn't go yet because Utah needs him to start while Raja Bell is injured. But afterwards I'm all for it.

If Bell or AK gets hurt again and Utah needs to insert someone other than Miles into the starting lineup and Hayward is in the D-league than all they have to do is sign another 2/3 guard or trade for one. Once Okur comes back I think this will be possible. At that time Francisco Elson's time will be greatly reduced because Okur will most likely take his spot as the back up 4. Which makes Elson expendable; so the Jazz could trade Elson for a 2/3 guard. (CDR from Milwaukee would be nice) Utah could still use Elson's experience when Okur comes back but the need would be greatly reduced. And if Hayward does in fact go to the D-league once Bell comes back then that need to have a 2 or 3 to start in case Bell or AK gets hurt again would greatly exceed the need to have a veteran like Elson.

butidonthavemoney
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Wow

How about Jerry Sloan letting Hayward close the game tonight?

Utah was down by 12 points going into the 4th quarter, when Sloan put Hayward into the game for the first time in the night. Gordon didn't exactly set the game on fire, but he played hard, aggressive and worked hard on defense. He also sealed the win with a breakaway dunk (and one) with 13 seconds left in the game. He finished with 5 points, 3 rebounds and 3 assists.

That's gotta be uplifting for the rookie.

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I wasn't sold on him until he

I wasn't sold on him until he busted out the "dream shake" in summer league, lol. I think the D-League is the best option for Haywood, but Sloan is old school, he really hasn't used the D-League much for his players and I don't think he will. He'll be okay, I think his best case is a Wally Szczerbiak player, there are a lot of parallells in their games and experience, but he's just younger and will take him a couple years to hit his stride, hopefully he'll get his confidence back, because that will be what makes or breaks him.

butidonthavemoney
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Toot

I'll be tooting my own horn for a while here.

Looks like NoMoney was ahead of the curve.

GENIUS!

Shame be to everybody except me.

SHAME!

Toot. Toot.

arman
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..

Guys realize,he just isnt that good....If he was black,where do you think he be right now? Having great career.....in China !

M-DYMES
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I never was high on Hayward

I never was high on Hayward and thought the 9 slot was illogical, but this is his rookie season. A lil early to be givin up on a player just yet.

JoeWolf1
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Its early Jan...is last 3

Its early Jan...is last 3 games are...

13 points 4 rebs off 6-10 shooting

11 points 4 rebs off 3-6 shooting

17 points 6 rebs off 6-12 shooting (3-5 3 point )

butidonthavemoney
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Bump

Gordon Hayward showed the kind of potential he had tonight. He was unstoppable on offense and incredibly tough on defense. Hayward did not once back down against Kobe, and gave him all he could handle. He's also a far better athlete than people were giving him credit for.

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lol..its funny but after

lol..its funny but after watching how impressive Hayward was against the Lakers and getting a career high..I thought of only 2 people thats Sheltwon & Nomoney.

RUDEBOY_
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That left handed dunk by

That left handed dunk by Hayward was AMAZING

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