And again superstar point guard (in his prime) is not going to win NBA ring.. Its been like that since Magic, as Tony Parker (2007 version) is the closest .. This is not coincidence
And you could call LeBron a PG in these playoffs.
Isaiah Thomas won two championships after Magic did...
Rondo was no where near a superstar when the celtics won their championship. He wasnt even playing in crutch time most of the series. At that time he was considered a big liability.
Tony parker won a a ring but he would not have done it without Tim Duncan. Isiah is the only star pg to win a championship without a dominant big man.I wouldnt consider Lambeer dominant.
Billups wasn't a superstar but probably the most vitale player on the pistons squad that took the ship.
Rondo was not superstar back in 2008..
LeBron is not starting PG.. I am not talking about "primary ballhandler" because, you can say that Wade 06 and Jordan/Pippen was PG also..
Good point about Isaiah..
Ok.. so since Isaiah (not Magic) superstar point guard (in his prime) havent won a ring.. thats 20 years
Billups was definitely the leader of that pistons team, but Rasheed, Prince, and Wallace really made them tough on defense. The Wallace move really put them over the top.
Yeah I'm not sure if you want your best player to be a PG; he has too complicated a role already, being the main dude is a lot to ask of a guy who's also trying to get everyone else involved. I think Westbrook is in a good situation as the second fiddle if he'd just embrace it.
If Derrick Rose ever gets a killer jumpshot, then he has a chance to be that next pg to do it. I noticed that Lebron has a hard time guarding Terry than Rose, and it is because of Terry's ability to consistently knock down a jumper. Thats another subject though.
I think it's the fact that there haven't been any great point guards this decade. Now that the point guard era is beginning. Guys like Rose, Westbrook, and Rondo will probably get a (another) ring.
Jason Kidd is one of the greatest pgs of all-time.. He just ran into two dynasties with the Lakers and Spurs or else he would have a had a ring. Steve Nash has been great. Baron Davis was a monster when healthy and focused. But there is no dispute that Jason Kidd and Nash have been two of the greatest pgs the last decade (especially Kidd).
But I agree Tongue-out this new generation of pgs are deep and talented.
If it's not a coincidence then what are the reasons?
Phil Jackson and the triangle offense has won 11 rings in the past 20 years. In this offense a team doesn't need a primary ball handler or a dominant point guard to win. I don't agree with your point, I just think it hasn't happened in a while. I just think the best players in the league, the type of player to throw his team on his back and win, in the past 20 years have been shooting guards and centers ( well 2 Shaq and Hakeem) and with these types of players on your team, especially in the triangle, you don't need a dominant point guard to win.
Magic and Isaiah were those types of winning players and if Derrick Rose or Chris Paul become that type of player, and their front offices put together the caliber of team it takes to win it all around them I could certainly see them winning a title. I agree with NJHooper with his mention of Chauncey Billups, he may not be the caliber of an Isaiah or Magic, but he has played on Olympic teams was a finals MVP and in my opinion his performance in the Finals vaulted him into stardom.
Two point guards have won Finals MVP since 2004, I see the trend you've picked up, but I don't see it as a rule. I don't see any reason why Derrick Rose with a couple more years of playoff experience couldn't win a title. Same goes with Chris Paul only with a better supporting cast.
Super Star Small forwards haven't led their team to championships either in about 20 years. It's always bigs, or 2 guards who feed off their bigs who have won over the last decade.
A dominant big man has been considered invaluable to a championship team for a long time. Elgin Baylor was considered to be the greatest SF of all time until Julius Erving and he never won a championship (and Erving owed a great deal of credit to Moses Malone when he finally won the big one). Jerry West was the greatest SG of all time until MJ and he couldn't win a championship until the Lakers got Wilt, Oscar Robertson was arguably the greatest PG ever until Magic and he never won a ring until the Bucks got Kareem.
Except with a few aberrations (like MJ, Ike, or Rick Barry in the 70s) every championship team ever built has had a superstar big man playing at a very high level.
I don't think it's necessarily true that a superstar PG cannot win it all, I'd say that with the ideal team built around him and/or a superstar center or power forward a great PG can win it all. If Boozer and Noah had played like superstars in the Heat series I have no doubt that Rose and the Bulls would be battling the Mavs in the Finals.
I would go so far as to say that it's just as hard for a superstar SG or SF to win a championship without another superstar down low.
As far as small forwards being team leaders, Paul Pierce was the leader of that 08' Celtics team.
Well, you have responded to my question (not a statement) .. And thats what I was looking for...
Just to remind you: Penny, Payton, Stockton, Kidd, Iverson (PG?) were prety close and some of them havent played against dynasties in Finals..
Is it possible because its easier to defend smallest guy on the other team, who is the focal point of the offense.. Like Miami VS Rose? When the stake is so high (and ring is so close) defense is on the whole new level.. any thoughts?
I don't buy the easy to guard the small player. Anyone on the NBA not named Lebron James couldn't have defended Rose that same way. Many times bigger guys aren't quick enough to guard point guards. Miami just had the only guy in the NBA that could have given Rose that same kind of trouble....well, maybe Tony Allen.
Isiah Thomas was a super-star with a deep, talented team around him. Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Aguirre had all been all-stars at some point in their careers. That team had all the things you need to win: a dominant offensive player (Zeke), great defense, great rebounding, a great bench, and two other solid go-to guys in Dumars and Aguirre.
I think the Bulls are built in the same way with a dominant point guard who can score on anyone in Derrick Rose, a fairly deep team, and some good rebounders. What they are lacking is the second top guard and maybe another good backup big man.
I think the Bulls need to trade Boozer given his age and his bad contract. The Bulls have to build around Rose, Noah, Gibson, Deng, Bogans/Brewer, and whatever shooting guard they sign in the offseason. Carlos Boozer slowed them down and played bad defense. I would even consider trading him for aging role players such as Ron Artest and Derek Fisher (plus draft picks and cash). At the two guard they need a better scorer who can also shoot well, play defense, and a team-oriented guy. I think Aflalo would be the best fit. ... That would give the Bulls a superstar in Rose, a great veteran wing player in Deng, and a younger good wing player in Aflalo with Bogans, Brewer, and Korver as back ups. Then they would have Noah as the defensive and rebounding anchor who would have room to work, along with Taj Gibson, and Asik. I would bring back Kurt Thomas as a veteran reserve who does some of the things (albeit in limited minutes) that Boozer does (hit open jumpers, rebound, bang) at a fraction of the price.
Then draft some good big men who can score, rebound, and defend. If they can get Derek Fisher (veteran shooter, ball handler off the bench), Ron Artest (toughness, defense, rebounding), Devin Ebanks (youth, upside, length, defense), and some draft picks for Carlos Boozer then they could have this team:
PG: Rose, Fisher, Watson
SG: Aflalo, Bogans, Brewer
SF: Deng, Artest, Korver, Ebanks
PF: Taj Gibson, Justin Harper (draft), Jordan Williams (draft), Kurt Thomas
C: Noah, Asik
That would give the Bulls a faster team with a more-balanced offense on the perimeter. Noah anchors the defense with some good young, active big men around him. Gibson can be the new Udonis Haslem who can get 11-12 points and 8 or 9 rebounds within the offense. He can rebound and score without hogging the ball or being a liability on defense. They would still have Kurt Thomas as a veteran rebounder and jump shooter off the bench. The bench has some a guy who can score some on post-ups, busted plays and jumpers (Ron Ron), a couple of good perimeter shooters in Fisher and Korver, a great defender/good 3 point shooter/glue guy in Bogans, plus another good one in Brewer. Up front they have youth and size with Justin Harper, Jordan Williams, and Omer Asik.
This new Bulls team is built more like the old Pistons teams with Rose as the premier scoring point guard, Aflalo as the reliable second option at guard, and Fisher as the shooter off the bench (I am not sure that Shelvin Mack will be there at 28). The old Pistons had two good centers in Laimbeer and James Edwards. This team has Noah and Asik who are both young and are getting better. The Pistons had a pretty good small forward in Mark Aguirre; this Bulls team has Luol Deng. The Bad Boys had Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn, and John "Spider" Salley to provide frontcourt depth and toughness. This team has Taj Gibson, Ron Artest, Kurt Thomas, and the two rookies (Harper and Williams).
This team has some good guys to throw at LeBron and Wade with Deng, Aflalo, Bogans, Brewer, and Artest. They can also put Gibson on Bosh who actually did better on him than Boozer did. Kurt Thomas can play some solid defense for a few minutes with the two rookies giving effort and putting some hard fouls on Bosh.
That might be the best way to build the Bulls other than bringing in another superstar. Not sure they can get much more than role players for Boozer. This trade will give the Bulls some solid vets with championship experience, a young small forward, and a couple of draft picks (either this year or in the future). This new Bulls team is more balanced on offense with more depth off the bench.
We're just now entering a new era of the NBA where the PG is becoming the most talented position - it's a bit premature to say a PG lead team can never win it all. The NBA game has evolved quite a bit in just the past few years. It seems every team wants a superstar PG over almost any position now because they're seeing that a great PG can make mediocre players look good - and every team has more mediocre/role players than great players.
which great point guard is making bad players look good? Westbrook takes Durant outside of the offense. Rose isn't making Boozer and Deng look like superstars. ... Kidd is doing a good job but he is TWICE the age of Kyrie Irving, and he is also a pass-first point guard. Rondo has a ring and is a very good player, but he didn't turn Garnett, Allen, and Pierce into Hall of Famers. Instead, those guys helped make Rondo an all-star.
I think that teams generally need above-average point guards to do well like Tony Parker on the Spurs, Billups on the Pistons, and Rondo on the Celtics. If the Mavs win then Kidd will be another example. But, the starting point guards in this series are old vets who have seen better days. ... not exactly superstars.
Chris Paul is great but they still lost in the first round. Darren Collison also lost in the first round and might have pulled it out if he hadn't have gotten hurt. Collison played great for the Hornets when Paul was injured. Does that mean Collison is a superstar? No, but the outcome was the same.
Who will win a title first? Paul or Collison? Whoever gets an all-star wing player and an all-star big man...