Pippen and Drexler Discuss Why Isiah Thomas Was Left Off the Dream Team

Thomas may have been the 3rd greatest pg of all time, but Magic was clearly the greatest and Stockton was clearly the second greatest. I've written two posts on pgs already: http://nbadraft.net/forum/comparing-stockton-other-great-pgs-long and http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/remembering-great-pgs on nbadraft already.

Statistically Magic and Stockton were way ahead of the field. It wasn't close. Statistically, Magic's averages are better than any pg ever. Stockton's and Isiah's stat averages for their careers are close, with Stockton ahead in assists, efficiency, and steals, but Isiah ahead in scoring and rebounding. However, it should be considered that Magic and Isiah both retired after 11 years. Stockton's averages include 19 years of play, which continued until he was 40--and his averages are still arguably better than Isiah's despite several "poor" statistical seasons when he was old.

Isiah's best year was amazing: 21.2 ppg, 13.9 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.3 spg. However, he never had another season that compared. He had four other seasons where he broke 20 ppg, but in his next best assist year he averaged 11.1 (Magic's career average was 11.2) and Isiah only had four total years with a double-digit assist average. Stockton had a 5-year span where his combined apg average was 14.0. During that same five-year frame Stockton's combined steals average was 3.0 spg. To put that in perspective, the last time any player averaged 3.0 spg during a full NBA season was 1993-94 and the NBA steals leader has only logged 3.0 spg (or better) 12 times since they've been keeping the stat. Stockton had ten consecutive years of double-digit assists, with eight years of over 12 apg in a row.

Since Magic, Stockton and Isiah played in their prime at the same time, analyzing their head-to-head statistics makes sense. In head-to-head matchups, Magic destroyed everyone including Stockton and Thomas. In head-to-head matchups Stockton was slightly better than Thomas, though it was very close. It should be noted that Isaih usually had a much better team than Stockton when they played each other, yet Stockton pretty much always held his own. The only pg to have an edge on Stockton in head-to-head matchups besides Magic was Gary Payton, whose edge was smaller than Stockton's edge on Isiah. However, most of Payton's best games vs. Stockton came when Stockton was nearing 40 and Payton was in his prime. Their primes didn't really match up.

When you really look at the stats, including head-to-head performances, it's borderline irrational to even pose an argument that Stockton is below #2 on the all-time pg list. It's even more unreasonable to suggest anyone besides Magic was #1.

You make some good points, which I'll analyze one by one.

1. Rings. Yes, Zeke is up 2-0 in this department. However, we all know this is a team game and while rings add to a legacy, they don't tell the whole story. Zeke played with a better set-up to win it all than Stockton did. His team was far more talented than teams Stockton played with. The Pistons had Dumars, Lambeer, Rodman, Vinnie Johnson, etc. in addition to Isiah. That squad was loaded with top talent including several regular all-stars. Stockton had Malone, who is one of the greatest ever. Unfortunately, after that the squad dropped off big time. Hornacek was the #3 player, and he was probably around Vinnie Johnson's level. Vinnie was the Piston's 6th man. When the Jazz went to the finals, their average player's draft position was #31 overall. Outside of Stockton and Malone, they had one player who had ever made an all-star game (Hornacek) and he only made it once.

In addition to having a better team, Zeke faced inferior competition. That isn't to say his competition was bad--it was great. But it was a notch below the Bulls at their peak. Recently statistical analysis has been done on the greatest teams ever assembled. The outcome said the two Bulls teams the Jazz faced in the finals were the 1st and 3rd best teams ever assembled in the history of the NBA. The Jazz team that lost was rated as the 7th best team ever assembled. Stockton's Jazz simply reached their peak at the worst time imaginable.

Yes, Zeke has the rings, but that doesn't mean he was better than Stockton. By the time Zeke actually won, he was an 18/8 player, and possibly not even the best player on his team.

2. Time played. You brush off Stockton's superior career stats based on the fact that he played so much longer, but then act as though Zeke's career averages should be all-important since they are comparable. You can't have it both ways. Clearly a player that retires at 32 should have better averages than a player that plays on past 40, all else being equal. If you want to be fair, compare their primes to see how good they were at their peak and compare their totals to compile their career accomplishments. It is clear that if Zeke or Magic had continued playing their career average stats would have dropped rapidly--both players were clearly already on the wrong side of their respective bell curves after 11 and 13 years respectively.

At their peak, Zeke and Stockton were comparable players. Zeke had the more impressive single-season stat line for sure. However, Stockton had nine seasons (in a row) with a higher apg mark than Zeke had in his second best season. During their primes (best 10 years), Zeke averaged about 5 ppg more and Stockton averaged about 4 apg more. I'd take the assists any day. Their best five year stat line is comparable, but Stockton's 10-year line was much better, as are his career totals. Naturally his averages are going to go down since he retired 7-8 years past his prime. The fact that Stockton was still an 11/8 player in the NBA at 40 should impress, not be looked at as a negative, even if it seriously damaged his averages.

Also, defensively it wasn't close. Zeke had 5 total years averaging better than 2 steals per game. Stockton did it 10 times and had 3 seasons above 3 steals per game. Stockton managed 2.0 spg at 34, two years older than Isiah was when he retired. As you noted, for good reason Stockton made all-defensive team over and over.

3. All-star appearances. This is nonsense. As we all know, this is largely based on popularity and is frequently disconnected from merit. Zeke played in Detroit when it was a major market, rather than the ghost town it is today. Stockton played in perhaps the smallest market of any NBA team. It should be no surprise that Stockton was awarded less all-star appearances than he deserved. Also, all-star MVP's (a game with no D) are irrelevant in my book.

4. You claim that Zeke would have destroyed Stockton in practice if he'd been on the Dream Team with him. Nonsense. Compare their stats from the 1991-92 season:

Zeke: 18.5 ppg, 7.2 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1.5 spg on .446/.291/.772 shotting percentages.

Stockton: 15.8 ppg, 13.7 apg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 spg on .482/.407/.842 shooting percentages.

As I mentioned above, Stockton and Zeke actually have head-to-head stats copiled. In one of my links those stats are compiled. It's clear Stockton outplayed Zeke (by a small margin) when they played each other throughout their careers. Certainly, when they were both 29 in 1992, Stockton was a much better player.

5. Overall, Zeke was probably the better player until they were both 25. After that, Stockton was a much stronger player every year they both played and he played for a full 15 years beyond that point. Zeke certainly got more hype, which happens when you're from a bigger market. But the number don't lie. Outside of a 4-year run from 21-25, Zeke was a few steps behind Stockton as a player.