OTL Special on tanking
Currently on ESPN
I fully agree with Chris Broussard.
Damn I missed it. Any highlights or talking points?
I really would like to hear an alternative to the current system.
Should the successful teams like Miami and OKC be awarded the top picks or what?
No one was complaining when Chicago leaped from 9th to win the rights to Derrick Rose. No all of a sudden people want to condemn Philadelphia and Milwuakee!!! Because smaller market teams can't compete in the Free Agent market with the likes of Boston, LA, NY, Chicago, Texas and Florida, they try to take away the one way they can acquire the talent.
Such a stupid argument to make against the little guy, we should be pissed at Boston and LA for putting themselves in a pretty favorable position just a few years removed from winning Championships, or Cleveland and Minnesota for squandering several high picks aside from Love and Irving.
The 76ers are doing it right, tanking and rebuilding the right way. Nobody forces the the Bucks to sign OJ Mayo and Illyasova and Pachulia and the list goes on. Nobody forces them to make those decisions. If they made sound decisions then they wouldn't be in that position. You know why OKC is successful? Because they make good BASKETBALL decisions. They don't attract free agents, they are in a similar situation as the Bucks. Obviously not quite as bad because the Bucks are in the worst market in basketball but.
They lucked into Giannis which is the only sound basketball decision they have made recently.
You are correct about Cleveland and Minnesota repeatedly squandering picks. But let's not act like this small market teams are getting the shaft just in free agency. The Spurs and OKC both play in small markets, they just make good decisions. These teams that are repeatedly in the lottery are there because of the decisions they have made AND their location, but if the same teams are in the lottery year after year and letting great players slip through their fingers because of poor talent evaluation, the NBA can't do anything about that.
The Hawks should "tank" for the tenth pick instead of getting beaten up in the first round and falling to around 15. Plus you get a chance at a top 3 pick.
And obviously most NBA fans would rather see the Knicks in the playoffs.
In the West, the team that gets left out of the Mavs, Grizzlies, Suns trio would get bumped up to the 14th pick instead of picking around 21.
But it feels like these Western teams would be more competitive in the playoffs.
Any Hawks fans here? Or, any Hawks fans ANYWHERE? I can't speak for them but I would think they would rather have a shot at a top 3 pick or a consolation prize of an Aaron Gordon or a Shabazz Napier type guy. There are some really good players who will be there at 10, but not at 15. And, since they already have Kyle Korver they don't really need Doug McDermott, a guy in that 10 to 15/20 range with some buzz.
As a Grizzlies fan, it looks like we are kind of running out of gas. The playoffs would be nice, obviously, but if we can't win at least a couple of games in the first round, then I kind of want a shot at Wiggins or Embiid or Randle, or Jabari Parker. If not, you still get a pick at 14 which is a lot better than picking at 21 (where we would probably fall if we made the playoffs). No matter what happens we will still be a contender next year, so if we want to look ahead to next season, we would be better off with the 14th pick.
The Suns could go either way. They really had a surprising year, and getting into the playoffs would reward their fans. I also think they can run with anyone and could give a veteran team like the Spurs some trouble. If they miss the playoffs well, they still had a heck of a year and move up a bit in the draft. A difference between picking at 14 as opposed to 21 could give them the missing piece they need to take the next step.
The ONLY team that shouldn't tank the last few games of the year are the Mavs (in my opinion). They are Dirk's team and he doesn't have a ton of years left. So they might as well get in, make a run, and see what happens. Yes, they could use a top 3 pick, but Dallas might be more likely to sign good free agents than an Atlanta or a Memphis. A roster headed up by Dirk, Shawn Marion, Vince Carter, and Monta Ellis is basically in WIN NOW MODE.
Back to the Hawks, they also have to consider some young improving teams that will be hogging some of those top playoff seeds. Teams like the Raptors which are at 3 right now and are a really young team. Then the Wizards who are back in the playoffs. The Cavs and Pistons are young teams with some promise who are only getting better. The Bobcats are FINALLY good. The Sixers are TERRIBLE but they are young, have a guy to build around in MCW, and should come out of this draft with a potential beast, and another good player on top of that. Unless the Hawks are satisfied with battling for the seventh or eight seed every year, they need to improve. Moving up five spots in the draft (by missing the playoffs) would help.
This is like the tenth time you made an emotional post showing you were visibly upset with the fact that people condemn small market teams for tanking. Nobody is saying that, the OP simply stated the fact that they are discussing the pros and cons of tanking. Im pretty sure people understand the benefits of bottoming out for future success and would agree that Philly has executed their gameplan perfectly putting themselves in a great position for longterm success.
Dont get me wrong teams do not always succeed by doing this like Charlotte, Cleveland, Sacramento, Minnesota. Although if you take a look at a team like the Bucks they probally should have done this a long time ago. They have been preaching a competition oriented enviroment most memorably with Scott Skiles for years, finishing with late lotto picks or mid 1st round picks which has made it impossible to draft a star player ever since Bogut, and we all know that Bogut never became the impact player the Bucks expected him to be some part due to lack of development some due to injuries (not saying he was a bust).
Although I dont think thats the only way for small market teams to succeed. I think its a combination, Im not mad at New Orleans giving up there 5th overall pick in a weak draft and a future 1st for Holiday. That team committed to winning immediatly with Davis and they have a coach that hates losing. They wany Davis to develop in a winning culture and did not want to play to lose to pair up Davis with a Parker or Wiggins. Instead they acquired Evans and Holiday who are both young players that the culture they wanted to establish and committed to winning by getting rid of any picks.
In hindsight it may seem like Philly won that trade but in reality New Orleans is light years ahead of Philly in establishing a winning culture based on effort. At this time I know Bew Orleans will be much improved next year, and in two or three years I cant yet say Philly will be the better team even with the 4 lotto picks they used in two years.
So to sum it all up I think tanking is effective although it is not the only way to win or acquire talented players, but I agree you do need an abundance of talent and organized effort to win ballgames and ultimately compete on the big stage.
- I use to be in favor of tanking/ rebuilding by losing but it bites you more than helps
I use to be in favor of tanking, because a team should either decide to sink (tank), swim (contend for championship), but not tread water (goal of just making playoffs). But the more I think about it which teams that tank have done well other than OKC. Yes maybe portland would have been great if they did not lose Oden or Roy.
- What about the rebuilind Cleveland and Denver with Bron/Melo 2003?
Look at them now, in the end you really need a smart organization to tank. Most smart GM's do not want to put a losing team out there unless they have no choice. I believe Pat Riley, Jerry West would never want to tank. The problem with those 2 teams was they overpaid for mediocore talent to try to keep them to stay. Overpaying Larry Hughes, trading for antwan jamison, ben wallace past their primes. Denver bringing in A.I past his prime. Pat Riley and Jerry West never tries to pair their stars with overaged talent, they are smart and bring in the best they can get.
- So what are the best options
a. Get a coach and GM with the right direction commited to winning. Miami heat did not rebuild, they were a 6th seed with wade alone. They realized they had a star, got him the best talent through FA. Though you do need a superstar, this is a harder option, but if you have a superstar you have to give him the best talent that isnt past his prime.
b. Utlize the late first round picks and find talent. Yes OKC built their team on 3 great lottery picks, but they keep giving the team much needed young players that are hungry. Serge Ibaka, i believe Roberson and P. Jones are great role players that you pay 1.3 million a year, which are much more worth it than paying someone like Igoudala or AK 47 8 million a year. Houston did well in the years early with picks of Sam Cassel and Robert Horry, Boston was able to draft Leon Powe and Rondo who where great bargains.
Exactly - no one faults fans for wishing their team a spectacular season-ending collapse (and thus a better draft pick), but the fact that there's even a debate among fans on whether or not to tank shows you just how screwed up this system is. In the short term, fans might be right to want a higher pick but they shouldn't be dragged through this shell of a season, day-after-day of tanking losses, etc.. The problem is with the league and their backwards draft system.
And what do we get out of Adam Silver? "Tanking doesn't exist." It's called 'rebuilding.'" Etc.. He needs to admit we have a significant systematic problem here. And he needs to work with teams and fans to implement a system that works, that gives small market and struggling teams a pathway to rebuilding, AND doesn't reward tanking the end of the season. Some solutions are up at NBArrassing.com -- along w/ a petition to Silver to change this insane system.
I'm amazed no one has offered the Spurs shooting coach like double his current salary (maybe more if you're in a state w/ state income tax as Texas doesn't have it).
Look at the guy's track record. He's a god damn wizard.
If you're Charlotte how is this guy not making absurd money to teach Kemba and MKG how to shoot the 3 ball?
My solution to tanking is simple...
Make the NBA draft lottery unweighted.
That means that all non-playoff teams have an equal chance to get the #1 overall pick and absolutely no provisions are given to any team regardless of their regular season record.
Before I get negged, yes, I do agree that this solution isn't completely bulletproof, but I believe its the best option available. It would make teams think twice about knowing full well that they could have the worst record in the league and still only end up with the 14th pick in the draft. It would keep certain organizations honest.