How will they do upfront vs some of the nba best on both ends? This year and in the long term. With their lack of athleticism , but high iq and motor, is another gasol/randolph like combo a possibility?
If Sully and Olynyk played out like Gasol and Z-Bo I would die of happiness. I don't think either player will even come close to that level of play. Ever. Z-Bo is one of the best players with his back to the basket, and has a pretty good face-up game as well. Sully on the other hand doesn't exactly have a shot right now, and has yet to find a way to score consistently with his back to the basket. I've never seen a player get blocked more times this year than I have Sullinger. He has a long ways to go before he starts putting up 20+ points a game consistently like Z-Bo has done through out his career (Assuming you're comparisons are positional).
The same could be said for Olynyk, but I think it's quite obvious he'll never be the player Marc Gasol is. He's known for his offense, while Gasol is known for his defense. I also see him more as a stretch 4 than a center
I'm also one of the few Celtic fans who only see these guys as role players on a good team. Unless the Celtics procure a dominant center I don't think Sully or Olynyk are the answer down low, and wouldn't be surprised if you saw one of them included in a trade package sometime this year or next if they play well. While I think Sully could easily be a 10/10 guy this year, it would be in the same mold as a JJ Hickson, and you're not winning a title with JJ Hickson starting for you. Of course they are both young and talented so we'll have to see how it plays out, and I think that's exactly what Danny is doing. He's going to give them huge minutes, and try to make them both look as enticing as possible.
Nice young Duo.. I think they're more Al Jefferson and Milsap tho
What makes gasol so special on the defensive end? He lacks great quickness, athleticism but is vocal out there, directing guys, boxing out properly, positioning, high iq and motor?
So doesnt sully and olynyk possess these kind of qualities?
Not saying either will be as good, but they do have a chance in theory
Gasol has sheer size, strength, intelligence, length and is fairly nimble for a guy with his size. He's an immovable force in the post, understands when to rotate and he can wall off shots without even leaving the floor.
Olynyk's a smart player but he doesn't nearly have Gasol's size or length, same goes for Sullinger. They could get the rotations down, but once they get there, they can still be shot over.
So siggy who do you expect to start at center for the celtics if not olynyk?
Sullinger? He's what 6'8? He's already undersized as a power forward and isn't even a good defender. Now he does have length and strength but how on earth do u expect him to guard guys like Lopez, Bynum and Hibbert? He had one of the worst foul rates in the league last year and it will only get worst if he starts at center.
The celtics are better off starting either olynyk or humphries.
No he doesn't have the length (neither does Olynyk FTM) but he does have the strength, ruggedness and mass, which is the primary difference b/t defending PFs and Cs these days. They have to be able to push the C off the block or out of rebounding position and fight for position. Sullinger is better equipped to do that than Olynyk. Look at my Bulls for example. Noah covers the more agile, mobile big which is usually the PF. While Boozer defends the bigger player where strength is required. Boozer is the same size as Sully, with similar physical limitations.
So you want a starting front court of sullinger and either Jeff green or brandon bass? Starting 2 guys at 6'8 in your front court and no protecting the rim or interior defense isn't a good idea(not that olynyk can protect the rim either) sullinger struggled with foul trouble last year and there's no way he would last guarding Lopez, Bynum, or Hibbert.
Also how would you expect sullinger to score against centers? He already struggles against length so putting someone bigger longer and stronger wont help
Sure I'd start Green, Bass and Sullinger in the frontcourt.
However bad you think Sullinger would defend those guys, I think Olynyk would do worse. He was a poor college defender and doesn't play with the physicality to defend those big post up centers. At least Sullinger has the experience, the ruggedness and the strength to battle on the interior.
I don't understand you. You ask me who I would start "if not for Olynyk" only for you to try to make the case for Olynyk? If the option is not Olynyk then don't make the case for him.
Sullinger wouldn't score 1 on 1 against those guys and wouldn't be put in a position to do so unless it's away from the hoop. They wouldn't just give him the ball and expect him to go to work, but what he would do offensively is play physically, battle in the paint, make himself available and hit the o-glass
If Olynyk and Sullinger are going to play together, Sullinger is going to have to defend centers, because Olynyk isn't strong enough to handle centers. With the lack of quickness that each possess, they will really struggle to defend the pick-and-roll and neither has the quickness to effectively defend the more athletic power forwards in the game, nor the size to defend the top post options.
I like Sullinger and Olynyk as future contributors for the Celtics, but there are some long-term issues with starting both of them, due to the fact that they both have limitations on the defensive end of the floor due to their poor lateral quickness and mediocre height/length. I doubt the Celtics goal is to start both Olynyk and Sullinger in the future, and neither has shown they are definitely starting material in the NBA, although I expect Sullinger to when healthy.
To weigh in on the Gasol-Randolph comparison, Gasol and Randolph are each NBA veterans who have enough understanding to make up for lack of elite athletcism. Plus, Gasol is much longer, stronger, and quicker than Olynyk probably ever will be and Z-Bo is even longer and stronger than Sullinger. It would take years and plenty of playing time for Olynyk and Sullinger to develop the kind of chemistry to work together in the way that Gasol and Randolph do.
Gasol is not quicker than olynyk. When was the last time u saw gasol finish on a fast break? And i disagree also zbo is longer and stronger than sullinger. Maybe by a little but sully is a beast child and hard to move.
All the counterargument about why sully and olynyk not having a chance on the defensive end should apply to gasol and randolph. But again these guys over the years have built an understanding, gained experience , have high iq and motor. So my pt is olynyk and sully should have a chance to be good.
Gasol is a really good defensive player. Not every player with a supposed high basketball IQ will become as good a defender as him. And Olynyk looks much slower defending the pick-and-roll than Gasol. Olynyk also lacks the length and physical strength to contest shots at the rim the way Gasol does.
Plus, Sullinger is unlikely to be as good an offensive player as Z-Bo and Olynyk is unlikely to be as good an offensive player as Gasol, so they aren't going to earn playing time as easily. And, anyways, Gasol and Z-Bo are much better now than they were as young players. The Celtics aren't going to just assume that Okynyk is the next Gasol and force feed him playing time, especially since Olynyk doesn't play anything like Gasol and has far inferior physical tools. And while Sullinger is remarkably similar in style of play to Randolph, that doesn't mean he will ever be as good as Randolph, especially since Randolph has a far more advanced face-up game and a better jump-shot.
I doubt anyone will deny that both players could be contributors, but I think you're under valuing Marc Gasol. He is a legit 7'1 265, and is the best passing big in the league. As you mentioned in one of your previous posts he is a great vocal leader, positional defender, and has an uncanny IQ for a big man. While I would love for Sully and Olynyk to be that good I just can't imagine either one of them putting up 14/8/4/2/1 while playing DPOTY level defense on a team that goes to the Conference Finals. Marc can guard the likes of Howard, Duncan, Hibbert, Pek, and any other big guy that walks through the door. That's where his true value lies, and neither of those two can ever do that.
Also, I think you are also under stating just how good Z-Bo is. He's been the main man for the majority of his career, and scored over 20 ppg 6 times in his career. Scoring 20 points a game is easy in 2K, but to do it consistently in the NBA is nothing to joke about. While I would compare Olynyk more to Z-Bo than Sully in this situation, I still thinks it's unlikely to think that either of these players could reach the 20/12 threshold that Z-Bo has done throughout his career.
The Grizzlies have two legitimate all-star big men on their team, and like I said in my opening post, I would drop dead if either of these guys become that good. I hope I'm wrong though
Both gasol and randolph have really come along. Remember when they first started. Fat , out of condition and late picks. But alot of promise.
You got to say in comparison sully and olynyk are ahead in year 1,2 vs these guys.
Again not stating they will reach their level even after time, but if they do , it will be at peak like how gasol/zbo help their team. Sullinger and zbo have similiar games , edge to zbo in finding ways to score and not get blocked, and olynyk to gasol. Olynyk is also a very good passer and has more potential as an offensive threat.
People talk about these two as an elite defensive duo--and they are in their current habitat. However, on an island this front court is just OK on D. The Griz have absolutely amazing PnR perimeter defenders, which helps keep Gasol & Z-Bo from getting stuck in space against speed on the high post. Neither is as horrific as Al Jefferson in the high-post P&R, but they'd get burned far more frequently if not for their all-world defensive back court.
My point is simply that even Gasol/Z-Bo are not really the defensively dominant tandem that people believe they are. Yet they are clearly on a higher plane in terms of physical tools than Sully/Oly. I could see Sully becoming an elite rebounder (12+ rpg) and Oly becoming an elite stretch 4 (possibly better than Ryan Anderson), but I don't expect Sully/Oly to ever be more than marginal on D.
The comparison I like best for these two (if they start at the 4/5 long-term and get close to their ceiling) is Boozer/Okur. However, if I were trying to build a contender I'd prefer that both play the 4 and one become the third big off the bench.
Boozer and okur is also a possibility. I agree that memphis has a wicked defensive backcourt with t allen and conley. But so do the celts with bradley and rondo
Kelly Olynyk has a big frame. His defense isn't close to where it needs to be, but a year or two with an NBA workout program could make Olynyk capable of defending 5's. He's a stretch 4, but think he could carry 255 lbs pretty well, and at 7' that's a big guy.
I agree. He is already 240 and doesnt mind the rough stuff. He will be no shot blocker but boxing out, positioning, help defense = yes.
He has very good anticipaticing skills, able to cut space off
If Sully and Olynyk play on the court at the same time there will be zero rim protection for Boston. @Bloodshy is correct that the ZBO/Gasol duo is not as elite defensively as many believe, but both those two are long and strong.
Sully has nice upper body strength, but he's not even in the same category as ZBO is- especially since he lost all that weight.
Does it matter olynyk and sully were each s selection on the all american 1st team? How many times do u see in the nba two front court guys team up that made all american 1st team
I think they are going to surprise people this year. We don't know how good they will be. Olynk is a rookie and Sully only played half the year last year. Sully looked good when he played though.
When sully was on the court the celts were a plus team.
The kid is smart and so strong. Also is an excellent rebounder. Prob going to b underrated for life. Cant believe celts got him at 21.
sullinger is 6'9 and what 260 pounds? big trunks, hard to move
Lakershow why do you keep talking about rim protection. Do you mean shot blocking??
Bc shot blocking is nice but not mandatory for good defense. Gasol/zbo don't shot block alot for example
If you deny inside position, box out, get in the way of penetrators while not getting burnt by your own man, you are playing some very good inside defense. No doubt if your a little shorter other guys have a chance to shoot over you.
If you mean rim protection like needing to deter other players from driving in, well you mean shot blocking or shot altering. How many in the nba are great at this?? I would say not too many.
If the celts young upfront duo can keep their guys from having a good game, while helping on the weakside plus olynyk will also rock them with his scoring. Well guess what, the celts have a chance to win the game.
If I imagine a team like indiana. I really can't see David West rocking either Sullinger or Olynyk while Hibbert may have a decent game against one. But what about David West vs Olynyk? will that be fun for West having to defend him?
Old thread. But i just wanted to pt out how decent these guys looked together(and by themselves) so far. The interior passing is poetry in motion
Olynyk is on his way on being a top 5 rookie of this year. The best part is both guys are playing nba calibre defense. Ainge has two steals on his hands
Kelly is getting better every game. Kelly has been ok on D for a rooking. Miami has no low post scoring and neither does the Thunder. Not crucial at all in the NBA now a days. Vitor has size and plays great defense and has good footwork. They seem to have a advantage almost every night up front. Kelly started playing well after facing Detroits front line. I wonder how much people actually watch before they post. Pretty solid up front and they have a ton of picks to get more size if needed. Team looks solid. Atlantic is garbage.