The Official Vince Carter HOF Argument Thread
Okay, let's go by your standards. Having a decent 25ppg season, well rounded in terms of rebounds and assists, and bringing a team that wasn't well known for a while or at all, and making decent noise in the playoffs.
Joe Johnson deserves to make it?
Now let's do this again, you're telling me bringing a team from obscurity and being a national icon because you can dunk the ball and are extremely exciting.
Steve Francis deserves to make it?
The point is, you can't just look at a single angle and say that's the reason they should make it and that reason only. We have to take into account that he was a popular dunker but if he did not dunk like he did, he would merely be just another scorer in the Joe Johnson form, quiet and good. Vince Carter did not exactly make Toronto basketball relevant again, while he did bring them to the playoffs, so did Chris Bosh, should he be in as well? No, because there is much more than a couple of playoff appearances and exciting dunks. It's about one of the best basketball players in the league over and over and over, not just being one of the greatest athletes of his time.
You must take into account their raw statistics, their intangibles, their team accolades, their personal accolades, and how much of an impact they made in the league while they were there. Vince Carter only has one of those going for him and that's his raw statistics.
To answer your question, if Vince Carter scores 25,000+ points by the time his career ends, he will, without a doubt, make the Hall of Fame.
not much difference between dominique wilkins and vince just saying something 2 think about
"not much difference between dominique wilkins and vince just saying something 2 think about"
vince averaged 25 or more 3 times. Dominique averaged 25 or more 11 times. He also averaged 30 or more 3 times something vince never did. Seeing as how both guys would make the HOF pretty much strictly on scoring, they arent all that close.
I do like vince, but he doesnt make the HOF. He quit on the raptors after just a few good seasons that had people thinking he was the next jordan then he never got back to that level of stardom in new jersey or anywhere since. Plus he was weak minded and always has been settling for bad shots. He even answered in a post game press conference once as to why he settled for perimter shots with "my mom always says take what the defense gives you". Really Vince? You're a grwon man and you are gonna use the "i listen to my mom" excuse when getting called out? SOFT
Wow, TOL23 opened my eyes to the big picture, and the truth. But remember he is not done yet.
If Vince gets to 25,000 points for his career, what would your answer be, and remember, if he plays four more seasons getting 13-14 a game, than he will get 25,000.
As I said in my previous post, "To answer your question, if Vince Carter scores 25,000+ points by the time his career ends, he will, without a doubt, make the Hall of Fame."
If he averages 14 PPG and plays ALL 82 games for the next 4 years then he would break the 25,000 point mark.
That means, he would need to play 4 straight complete seasons at 34-38 years old while dropping 14 a game which is highly unlikely and extremely difficult.
The chance is there, I just don't see him doing it.
"The point is, you can't just look at a single angle and say that's the reason they should make it and that reason only."
How many times do I have to say in this thread ALL THINGS CONSIDERED? I NEVER gave one single angle and said he should make it. Joe Johnson is NOT a top 10 player and I dont remember Steve Francis being one either at any point and time.
We have discussed raw stats, we have discussed individual and team accolades. We have discussed intangibles...but your point about the dunking and I really didnt want to discuss that angle...but since this thread is coming to an end...here goes.
You are correct about his popularity due to his dunking...but...dunking was a big part of who he was, thats what made him Vinsanity. Thats what made him Half-Man/Half Amazing. Thats what made him Air Canada. You say Calvin Murphy was one of the greatest FG shooters ever, thats an important stat. For some reason, I dont think enough credit is given to the dunk. Vince was one of the greatest dunkers ever if not the greatest...competiton and in-game. A dunk is every bit as important as a FT. Its 2 points...is it not? Also, as Dr. J used it, Vince did to similar effect. As a demoralizing tool for the opposing team....as a motivational tool for your teammates. Some times an exciting player can do more for a franchise than a player who has better talent. Its called putting butts in seats. Something Vince did. How many people do you think showed up to Raptors games to see what he was gonna pull out of his bag of dunks. With all things considered, I would give him my vote if I were on the committee....would that be enough to get him, depends on the panel. Joe Johnson may in fact be a better player than Vince, but as a career and contribution wise, Vince will always be one of the most popular, spectacular, memorable, and high scoring players to ever play the game. No, he wasnt Drexler, he wasnt Dominique, he was Vince...and I see no shame in that at all. How many players coming up now would say they wouldnt want their career to turn out like VC's? I think history will be kinder to him, and if you dont, then you are certainly entitled to that opinion.
as for Hedo and Vince, does that mean Hedo is better because they did worse with Vince? Maybe you dont take chemistry and fit into account. What I saw was a slashing scorer like Vince not being able to really flourish at the same time that Howard was in the lineup because of the middle being clogged. Ray Allen couldve been on that team and they may have had better success, or Rip Hamilton even. The Magic thought that it would work but it didnt, what did Hedo do when he got back, did he take them to the finals? I remember watching games where Howard (the focal point of the offense) was in and Vince couldnt really get his drive on, then as soon as Howard would go out, Vince would burst for like 15 points.
People thought Jamison would be the piece to get the Cavs over the hump, but I dont think he was a good fit either. At the end of the day, the Cavs didnt win...the Magic didnt win....but the Pistons did win with Aguirre replacing Dantley. Aguirre was not a better player, but at the end of the day, they got the ring with him and due to the struggles the team was having and the conflict between Daly and Dantley...you cant say if Dantley were there they wouldve won. My point is, we can debate stuff like this all day, its not as simple as replacing one player with another, the chemistry has to fit.
Statistically, Vince throughout his career has been better than Hedo in FG%, ppg, steals, rebounds, blocks, and assists. Who is the better player??? Does that mean Vince...a star player is a better fit on a team who already has a superstar? Or is the role player the better fit? Also, Hedo thrives in Van Gundy's system moreso than in any other system he has played in. Quite simply, the Magic organization thought that the better player would mean more success and it didnt.
Was exactly what I was getting at when I brought up the Hedo/Vince argument. Of course Vince Carter is a better player for his career. However, what I will say is, that Mark Aguirre was not only Isiah Thomas' best friend, but he was also a better player than Hedo Turkoglu. I was honestly really disappointed that Vince was not MUCH better on Orlando. I feel he had every opportunity in the world to be, and the fact that he did not fit in was really a let down.
Vince Carter was an offensive weapon throughout most of his playing days. Yes, he could dunk, but I loved his mid-range ability, he was a decent three point shooter and he could do many things with his athleticism. Even as he lost his once super-elite athleticism, he still had those other factors that lead to him being a very high level player. With all of this being said, it was disappointing seeing Vince top out after his third season in the league. He may have had his best All-Around season at 30, but the Nets went 41-41. Throw in the fact that Adrian was on two Pistons teams that lost 7 game series in the Eastern Conference Finals and than the NBA Finals the next year, what is to say they would not have been champs had he not come back? Well, one thing is for sure, the Magic were not playing well with Vince Carter there this year, and I think they had a snowballs chance in hell of making it back to where they were the year before.
It is true that the Magic may not have been the best situation for Vince, but Vince ALWAYS had wanted to play for them. He wanted to be drafted by the Magic, and I am a little surprised he took as long as he did to finally get to them. Vince was stuck in pergatory for a majority of his career, and I feel New Jersey was even worse for him than Toronto. Once they had gotten Vince, they had a team with NOTHING in the front court. The fact that they went 49-33 in their best season with Vince is not really a resume builder. I honestly feel his career post-Raptors is more of what hurts his Hall chances than when he was on the Raptors. I always thought the Nets were stuck with Vince, Kidd and Jefferson, and they really were. If Vince had maybe gone to a team with a little more to offer, like Dantley did with Detroit, than maybe we would not be having this discussion. But, Vince's early career, even with some mediocre Raptors teams, looks fine to me. After he left though, you kind of saw that even in "greener pastures", Vince was not necessarily able to carry a team to a level of contending. I think if you look at a lot of Hall of Famers, there being a part of contending teams makes there case that much more solid.
I think a good way to describe his career was, he was always on the cusp of something....he was a "not quite" player. not quite a franchise player, not quite a difference maker as first option, not quite enough points, all-nba teams, etc...it seems he was always knocking at the door but never went through it. Alas, this may be what ultimately denies him or prolongs his entry greatly. I think this is where the divide is in our arguments. I think that the fact that he was knocking on the door of greatness may be enough to get him in, you and others feel that since he never went through that door, thats enough to keep him out.