new holiday&jennings info from a number of scouts by aran smith..NUFF SAID
"I got a chance to talk to a number of the top national recruiting gurus, Dave Telep, Van Coleman, Jerry Meyer, Brick Oettinger, Frank Burlison, Clark Francis, Evan Daniels, Gerry Freitas, Aggrey Sam, Joel Francisco, Patrick Stanwood, and Mark Maggard and get their take on a number of things including this year's draft.
One of the things I asked a number of them about was two of the bigger mysteries of this year's NBA draft: Jrue Holiday and Brandon Jennings.
Nearly everyone feels that Holiday is tremendously overrated. Guys like Burlison and Freitas make a living scouting West Coast talent and have seen these guys dozens of times in high school as well as college (Holiday). Burlison mentioned a number of factors including the fact that Holiday was never a point guard in high school (so why should we assume he's one now?), the notion that he's an athletic combo like Westbrook (not even close to being a freak athlete, like Westbrook) and the idea that he's a lock down defender, he's not (when UCLA played Washington State they had to take him off Klay Thompson because he was giving up too many points).
Everyone agreed that Holiday being considered a potential top 3 or 4 pick is absolutely absurd.The consensus about Jennings is that he's a legit top 10 pick regardless of his play in Europe. He's a tough kid with excellent skills and despite a rough finish to the season in Rome the fact that skinnier point guards like Aaron Brooks and Rajon Rondo are having success at the NBA level helps his cause.
According to Van Coleman, the high school class of 2010 is a down year but 2011 is excellent and the 2012 and 2013 classes could be special. So good news as far as future NBA talent on the horizon."
where did u get this?
on this web site..under the 2009 pagos camp thing
Do you guys know the high school class of 2011 & 2012 very well? I don't really start paying attention until they would be in next year's mock (so once this year's draft ends, the 2011 mock hits with some high schoolers on it). Unless of course someone catches my eye elsewhere, like Derrick Rose caught my eye when I watched a friend's little brother just get destroyed trying to guard him. Ah, that's a fond memory. You know that you are a pretty impressive player when the guys you just beat are going to tell their grandkids about you kicking their ass.
naw i dont look that far ahead unless i happen to see or play against some of them while at a gym..or if i hear a name over and over and have to check them out(d.wagner)
I just know laquinton ross is going to be something to remember
Scott42444- what r u talking about? I dunno about the 2011 and 2012 HS players
And Holiday...i think he could be a poor man's D-wade
If you let him work as a PG and let him play PG and worry about playing D, the O will come later
poor mans dwade..i wouldnt even say them in the same sentence...you need to say a poor mans (insert average play name)..not a superstars name..pretty much im not gonna say too much about holiday any more because my case it pretty much rested now...it just was interesting reading alot of post talking about how great a pg he was in highschool and how he played out of position in college when the truth is he never was a point guard so he played the position he usually plays( i cant argue with the scouts who actually seen him play alot of games in highschool compared to the dummies on here who claimed they had seen most of his games in highschool)...laquinton ross is nice auber but ive read from scouts he hasnt gotten much better since his freshman year and a couple players have caught and are catching up to him..hence why hes dropped in the rankings( started out as number 1)
Josh, I know how you feel about Holiday... the jury is still out and it will stay that way till the season. I hope he proves you wrong.
I'm curious about your thoughts on Brandon Jennings... according to your standards for Judging Jrue (JJ) you shouldn't be sold on him at all because, technically, he hasn't shown you anything special... He hasn't done &$#%#&@! in europe and anything you saw in high school is irrelevant... right? I myself would rather take a flier on Jennings than Jrue, but if you're going to JJ so harshly you should also be pretty low on Jennings right?
Deron Williams didnt play PG in college, Dee Brown did...you have to get some guys a chance.
And in no way im I comparing Deron Williams and Jrue Holiday..im just sayin
Deron Williams didnt play PG in college, Dee Brown did...you have to get some guys a chance.
And in no way im I comparing Deron Williams and Jrue Holiday..im just sayin
you do have a point qhaynes about deron but deron also stayed and showed that he could holiday didnt so its more likely he cant then he can be a very good pg..the whole thing wit me starting on jru was people constantly saying he was going to be a superstar and hes one of the top pg in the draft..how can someone be a top three point guard when hes never been a pg was my question..then on top of that a top10 nba pg and dominate in year one...as far as jennings im kinda in the same boat but the difference is he actually played point guard all his life and i know how europe is with young guys they are comming off the bench for the most part and if they have any of that flash the euro coaches will not play them much ..its also rare to have good scoring stats over there in the top leauges because of the coaches...also ive seen jennings play..at first i hadnt seen holiday play except one game and he looked bad so i couldnt jump on his bandwagon till i did some research and watched some of his games...after doing that i still wasnt impressed enough to say some of the outlandish things some of these posters were saying about him
So I typed "2011 NBA mock draft" into a google search (I didn't think that anyone would have one since you would be guessing that kids would grow but I gave it a shot) and went to this site I never heard of (and won't bother naming). It had a list of the top 5 guys in the Class of 2011, which was nice.
Then, I looked at their Mock Draft for 2009 (they didn't have one for 2011, stupid lying google). I skipped over everyone else, went straight to #16 (real surprise, huh?)
They have Jrue Holliday going to the Bulls at #16, what? Why? Why would they choose a guy at the ONE position they already have set for a decade with their first pick in 2009? That being said, I wouldn't exactly hate it if they just put him at SG with a best player available kind of pick. But, there seems to be NO logic there whatsoever. It doesn't go along with the "Final Four Players Only" stuff they usually do and it doesn't address any team needs. Now, I don't think that the Bulls should avoid drafting a PG, but with a NEAR lottery pick taking a "potential" kind of guy? It's completely illogical.
You know, Deron Williams would slide down to SF (kinda) sometimes with Luther Head taking over the SG spot, too. It's just because Luther Head has a hell of a jump shot.
IMO...holiday wont bust...
probably because they think jru would be a good back up pg..youre looking at it as him being a starting pg...and alot of people look at players getting drafted as a starter who go in the first round when in actuality alot of the teams are drafting the players for a backup role and not a starting role.
imo i see him as a bust simple because expectations are way to high for a player who hasnt proved anything...i dont blame him for it..its the fans and peopel who praise him for shadow workouts
so why is jrue gonna bust
and derozan, evans, jennings, rubio wont?
tell me who you think will bust
I think the point about Holiday and not playing "PG" that much in HS is that you can be a "SG" who basically has the ball all the time, you just don't bring it up the court... it's high school. He showed the ability to be a facilitator in HS and he still managed to average over 3 dimes at UCLA in his freshman year, despite the overwhelming amount of time DC had the ball...Brandon Roy hasn't played PG EVER in his career but I still think that he'd be a Top 5 PG if he ever tried... it's the ability to make other people better...
Jrue Holiday will be just fine. If you're looking for Deron Williams, or Chrs Paulyou ar egreatly misaken. If you are drafting onthe idea of getting a goo solid point of the future in a mix of Kirk Hinrich/Rodney Stuckey, then he's definitely your choice. As for his Defense....HE'S 18 years old. How many players come in and even give the effort on D that Holiday does. Not to mention terrific quickness and a nice wingpan and height to see over the O on offense.
As for Jennings, gt real, is there any question this kid is top 10. I don't care how poorly he performed in Europe. Like i stated in another thread, Jennings poor numbers and sporadic playing time didn't hurt his stock, only helped b/c everyone knew wat he could do before going over there and yet he played on one of the best teams and learned from a lot of veteans. The high ball IQ he left with has only been increased as he has learned more of the intangibles, and with there lack of touch fouls he had to learn to play through physicality. Flaw left is still decision making and a jumpshot. His build will not be a problem as his athleticism will make up for that. Decision making will come with experience and the jumper is the easiest thing to work on. The same realistically could be said about Holiday(to a much lesser extent of course). Jennings upside is at least all-star level if not franchise changer.
As for Holiday I'm still high on him for a team like LAL, but I'm much higher on Iman Shumpert out of Georgia Tech. Reall wish he had come out early so e'd have slipped to LA. Smart move staying thouh. Kid has some NICE potential. True DWADE potential. Not quite the athlete but in the most similar of molds.
100 % agree with you pops
yea, my comment about Jennings was towards josh cuz he said he has to see potential (not against HS competition) to say that a player can do well.... i definitely think jennings could become a game changer... i'd definitely pick him over Jrue
yeah i do because hes shown no evidence that hes gonna be a good pg or player..hes shown potenial to be a average player from what ive seen then on top of that and to be grossly overrated/hyped..at least with the other players they showed what they are capable of by scoring or passing or defense or whatever that showed there potenial.ive watched 2o games of holiday now and im just not seeing all this he will be this or that. i would think the people on here would come back with well in this game he did this to lead you believe he will be this type of player or that type of player but all i hear is he will be so good but no evidence to back up the statement..and badger how many other sg average 3ast or more a game?..plus he didnt show in those 20 games any great pg decisions..and yea id pick him over holiday too in a heart beat he put up around the same stats then jur playing sg just like jru in a hell of alot less minutes
ok igu he will be fine based off of????? what.......hes also very lucky this isnt that strong of a draft and hes actually smart to come out this year
From the games I watched, he got to the basket whenever he wanted, he just wasn't a very effective finisher~ often times because I felt he was tryin to do too much to try and live up to expectations.
He showed in workouts that he can shoot the ball, but I think his confidence was so shot at UCLA that he just lost it. His shot has pretty good mechanics it just wasn't going in... That can change. People get jump shots (see trevor ariza)
I also thought that while he wasn't a LOCK down defender like Russell was (in his SOPH year) he definitely played solid defense against the other team's best wing. I think that we forget that he was an 18 yr old freshman with huge expectations....
i just read his scouting report for the first time...one he doesnt have good mechanics when shooting in games he shots from the side of his head.2 after reading all of the scouting reports the concensous is he is not a tru point guard and is more of a combo and also his shot isnt that good( like i said before ignore workouts because a player isnt shooting against any defense so alot of people can look like great shooters)..nbadraft says he could be a flip murray.delonte west player..and other sites say more delonte west which i can agree with ..also notice he picks looked to be picked around 20-24 which i dotn disagree with either
I was a huge fan of that Illinois team and there's no doubt Holiday is a poor man's D-Wade. Holiday will be able to play in point guard or shooting guard stop doubting him. Oh, as for the classes of recruiting 2014 NBA Draft I'll be the number one pick. Also look for names such as Chris & Nick Dietrich and Matthew McPherson.
there's not a chance Jrue slips by the Wolves at 18.
i acknowledged that they were just in workouts... it's at least some indication that he can shoot
I agree with you about Brandon Jennings. That dude is a stud. I think that he had one way of REALLY hurting his draft stock and that's if he would have quit, publicly denounced his team/coach, got into shouting matches with the coaching staff or his teammates, etc. He didn't. He did everything that he was asked and acted like a professional. I know that one scout in particular thought one of Jennings's question marks was that he was a bit immature. I think that he helped answer that question.
But, the point with Jrue, I don't think that you draft a guy in the lottery and hope that you have a backup PG. Not in today's NBA anyway. Of course, I guess that getting a guy who can play both guard positions, can defend both guard positions, and can score isn't a terrible thing to put on your roster. It just seems to be a bad position to put a teenager who needs consistent playing time in order to reach his "potential". Plus, I don't think that Kirk Hinrich is a fair comparison. I like the idea behind it, just like what I said about playing both positions and playing defense. I just think the difference between the two and what justifies Kirk going #7 in the best draft of the century so far is that he didn't need to reach his "potential". He had played for years in college, succeeded on the National stage, and grew up with a coach as a father (which would lend some credence to him being able to easily transition from college to the pros). Jrue had a VERY hard time adjusting from high school to college where he wasn't able to just be "the man". That was with an NBA PG playing right next to him who was not only able to play well with a young, 6'4'' SG/PG, he was able to help Westbrook succeed well enough to become the #4 pick in the draft. If Jrue has that much trouble adjusting to not having the ball in his hands all the time, how will he adjust to not even getting consistent minutes? Plus, no he is going to be asked to guard Derrick Rose/Chris Paul/Allen Iverson type of players without being in the flow of the game. It's a HIGH risk to take. If Jrue has similar troubles adjusting to the NBA as he did to college, how could anyone not feel like it was an obvious result? He just showed that he has trouble adjusting and now you put him in the toughest league on the planet.
in this draft, there aren't that many guys with huge upsides that can go in the lottery... tell me 14 guys you'd take over Jrue, Scott!
and Jrue's ceiling isn't backup PG, it's what he is now.
Agai i show the comparison of Kirk Hinrich/Rodney Stuckey. You think Stuckey is a poor offensive player? Well he managed to drop 40 on your boyDerrick Rose in December. Is Kirk Hinrich a poor Defender? Well Ben Gordon has to disagree as Hinrich made him a defensive player by allowing him to guard the sg before Rose came around. Best Comparison, Delonte West...did he ever play PG in college?, no Jameer Nelson did, had he ever played PG prior to becoming the starting PG for Boston a few years back. Don't yu see, in the league now, you can play pg as a sg who can distribute, i.e Delonte West,Rodney Stuckey,Gilbert Arenas,Dwayne Wade. Hell evenBrandon Roy, Andre Iguadala and Kobe Bryant could be legit pg's now.
What have i based all my thoughts of Holiday being a nice safe bet? Here goes.
He's a catch and shoot player who finishes decentlyaoundthe rim.Legit size at sg, great at the point to see over the D.Good vert both no step and max.Needs work on his pull-up J from 8'-18', not really comfortable there,but can be fixed since he's only 18. Has trouble squaring up going right or left when he pulls up off the dribble.How many rg handed players are good, o even able to uzitilize a jab step to the left that he WILL stick withshowing his ambidextrious abilities. His athleticism in iso is smooth. Good at everything, elite at none. His man defense is good as he shows to put the effort in and already has the qicks,length,and size to be a good-great defender. Plug in a defensive coach to help him with his fundamentals, you're set. In fullcourt situations though, he will need some help.
I don't think poorly of Rodney Stuckey at all, I just know Kirk's game a little better so I chose to talk about him. First of all, Rodney Stuckey dropping 40 against a rookie PG isn't that HUGE of a surprise to me. The difference between Stuckey and Jrue are that Rodney averaged almost 25 points a game in college, which was fourth best in the country. Taking a guy who scored 25 ppg, with about 5 assists, 5 rebounds, and 2.5 steals a game. That's college success, not all hopes and dreams based on high school performance. Same thing with Hinrich. He had college success. I don't think that Hinrich is a poor defensive player at all either. I think the opposite. He was a good defender in college, it wasn't just that he had "the physical tools to be a good defensive player". Maybe I wasn't clear in my post there, I am saying that the difference between Hinrich/Stuckey and Jrue is that Jrue was a relative disappointment in college (look, I know people are going to disagree but didn't most people feel he would have a better season?) to a certain and he had the tools around him to succeed. Part of my reasoning is the fact that he stepped into the same spot as 2008 #4 pick Russell Westbrook and right next to the soon to be drafted DC, and didn't succeed. Now, I think that Jrue Holiday is a legit NBA player but I feel that he REALLY needed another year in college to prove that he can take the step to the next level. He didn't transition that well from high school to college, at least not for a lottery pick. I agree with PG's being SG's who distribute. Those guys all put up numbers that would warrant a team taking that chance. Out of all the guys you mentioned in your post, Hinrich, Stuckey, Jameer Nelson, Delonte West, Arenas, Wade, Roy, Iguadala, Bryant. Which one of them stepped into a situation like Jrue did and didn't succeed? Well, Kobe didn't have a chance really but the answer in my opinion is no one.
Delonte West was much more of a stud at St. Joes than Jrue was at UCLA... Jrue was 18...
Nice pops. I agree he might not be a perennial all-star but he can be a solid NBA guard for all the reasons you gave.
off the top of my head, that's my best comparison for Jrue...
Yes at St.Joe's, not UCLA, the same UCLA that had two seniors already established and a collison that had te ball in his hnds ALL the time. He was 18 year old fresh, was Westbrook a beast freshman year? Holiday at this pointisnt a great shooting threat nor post player therefore never being a legit scorer. And had he had the ball in his hands and played pseudo point with Darren in a Fisher,Chalmers,Duhon type role (as a catch and shoot guy who brings leadership and smart play) and been ale to drie the basket,you would have seen the true Jrue Holiday.
A.D. would be a good comparison for Jrue now...everyone forgets that he's still 18. What is he just not gonna get any better?
Let's sto forgetting his biggest weaknesses ar thingsthat are either the easiest thing to improve upon i.e shooting or things that come with age and experience i.e. decision-making floor general presence....was nash a pg coming into the league? Or even his first few years for that matter
Also, Westbrook dominated his Sophomore year...everyone gotta get that right...he came out as a Sophomore and had a excellent Sophomore year
I think that some people are discounting Love's affect on that other UCLA team... he made everybody better.
I don't like the Jrue and Russell comparison because RW is on a whole other level athletically... Also, Russell had the opportunity to play for the first couple games of his SOPH year (another reason the comparison is shotty) at PG and that built his confidence a lot.... IMO
For Jrue it was all about confidence and he didn't have ANY at UCLA.
COME ON SCOTT! tell me 14 other guys you would take in the lottery before Jrue.
Jrue had the exact type of season i expected.Same kind as Westbrook did as a poor shooter beside of a ball dominant Collison. Are we forgetting that Westbrook only avg 10pts as well not sure of the exact numbers but im sure they were around 2-4 rbs and 2-4 ast. They were defensive guys.
Does anybody have Westbrook's athletic measurements from last year?
No, Nash wasn't a superstar point guard in the NBA when he first started out. He of course was playing behind Kevin Johnson, Sam Cassell, and then Jason Kidd. 2 of those guys are 2 of the best PG's of all time. Yes, I think that Kevin Johnson was one of the best PG I've ever seen play. Barkley just said a couple of weeks ago that KJ would have averaged 30 ppg with the new rules. Now, Barkley isn't the end all be all of basketball player scouting, but he does have respected NBA knowledge. Nash also came out of college as an honorable mention All-American and was top 3 all-time in his school's history in points, assists, 3-pointers, and free throw percentage. Now, I know that it was at Santa Clara, not UCLA, but he succeeded in the situation that he was put into. Jrue, who was put into a situation where other NBA players have recently succeeded, did not.
Yes Jrue didn't meet yor comparison's but like someone stated above, Westbook was on a team that had Love and Mbah. Westbrook was able to slash with more success due his insane first step, vertical, length, and Love's ability to find open cutters within the offense. Whodid the same things for Jrue Alfred Aboya? Josh Shipp? Darren Collison?...NOPE!!!
I agree about KJ though. Poin is that it just takes confidence, drive, and the right situation. Jrue seems to Show he wants to be the best which is a quality that makes players better, confidence will come. We'll see about the right situation. I just don't think you're realizing that just b/ he didn't play the title of pg in highschool doesnt man he didn't play the role offensively.Rose wasn't a point gurd going into College. And evn in college he didn't ook that great outside of being the fastest out of an entire group of greyhounds. Yet he looks to be the next great pg in the pro's. nd hestil lcks some of the mostbasic pg abilities such as pick and roll game. Not a floor general at all, hinrich is the vocal guy for that team. What kind of point guard isn't te leader of his team and can't run a simple pick and roll. Point is you can lackqualities the traditional player at your position did because the game is played so differently. BTW did Charlie Bell look like much of anything in college outside of a defender? Still not a pg but can step in when needed and his shooting has gotten worlds better. Due to his work ethic. Don't underestimate drive/poise/passion/and work ethic.
Dude will be a lottery pick for a reason. Yall might as well stop hatin on him. Come draft night he is top 14 pick and will be getting paid. Jrue is a baller.
In the end, I think a team will give him the keys to the team and let him be the PG.
I would. Expect him to go top 14
Well, here are just the PG's that I think will be taken ahead of him:
Rubio, Jennings, Flynn, Stephen Curry, Tyreke Evans (those last 2 are PG/SG kind of guys too)
SG ahead of him:
James Harden, Demar DeRozan, Gerald Henderson, maybe...Chase Budinger
Others ahead of him:
Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, Jordan Hill, DeJuan Blair
There's 12-13, with Chase being VERY iffy. I would put other guys, in my opinion I would rather have James Johnson, Earl Clark, Terrance Williams, and a few more. But, you are right that others would put him in at least the Top 15. I know that some people would say that DeRozan and Evans didn't WOW people that much either. The difference, which Josh has said a few times, is that Demar and Tyreke had times where they took over games. Times where they looked like they could hang with the "big boys" in the NBA. I never saw that from Jrue. I only saw him play a few times, but I never saw it.
I would agree with you guys that Westbrook didn't do a very good job in his freshman year at UCLA either. The difference is that he stayed in college so that he could improve. When someone gets to the NBA, or even Brandon Jennings in Europe, it's hard to work on EVERYTHING you want to improve because you are getting PAID to do what the team needs from you. Also, Westbrook doesn't blow Jrue out of the water physically either. Check this out:
Westbrook's physical ability vs. Jrue Holiday's physical ability
RW - Standing Reach 8'4''
JH - Standing Reach 8'4.5''
RW - Max Vertical 36.5
JH - Max Vertical 34.0
RW - Lane Agility 10.98
JH - Lane Agility 10.64
RW - 3/4 sprint 3.08
JH - 3/4 sprint 3.21
Now, that being said...I don't hate Jrue Holiday, I just agree with Josh that I don't see what it is that mock draft people (like us and this site) see in what Holiday has done to impress enough to warrant some people putting him in the Top 10 of the NBA Draft. I see potential, but can someone name a guy that has succeeded in the NBA in a similar situation as Jrue where they had they physical tools and went into a very successful college program next to an NBA level PG and didn't do very much? Was that person a lottery pick? Was that pick a smart pick? If there is someone, I would like to know who it is. Then, I would like to know how many times that situation has backfired on an NBA team and they drafted a bust based solely on potential and physical tools (which in Jrue's case, I don't think by NBA standards are that spectacular).
Why is everone here forgetting what kind of draft this is. And i disagree that Henderson is ahead of him as theay havesimilar size and athletic numbers an henderson is an undersized two.Also Blair just came out that his Knees are as put by a couple of scouts as being dreadfuland will hinder him as he had a tear in both ACL's in college. From what I've read Most think he's also moved ahead of Curry. And Derozan is even further behind Jrue in terms of being raw.
"I see potential, but can someone name a guy that has succeeded in the NBA in a similar situation as Jrue where they had they physical tools and went into a very successful college program next to an NBA level PG and didn't do very much? Was that person a lottery pick? Was that pick a smart pick? If there is someone, I would like to know who it is. Then, I would like to know how many times that situation has backfired on an NBA team and they drafted a bust based solely on potential and physical tools (which in Jrue's case, I don't think by NBA standards are that spectacular)."
That doesn't happen very often, if ever... I think the only example I can think of is Russell Westbrook.... which is ironic.
WHY DIDN'T DC just come out last year, then this entire discussion would be moot cuz we would have been able to see Jrue play point!
I think it's misleading to say he wasn't a point guard in college.
One guy above even said he was a SF, c'mon.
In my mind he was definitely a PG.
Yea, they did play a 3 (small) guard alignment where Dee Brown often brought the ball up, and the roles were shared to some extent. But Williams also frequently brought the ball up, and was definitely the main distributor. He averaged 6 assists throughout his 3 year college career, and he was definitely playing the point - how are you guys defining it?
^^^There was a time when scouts wondered if Luther wasn't the best on that team. And yes Deron was the Prima Facilitator on that team, but all three shared the duties. But that's a poor comparison because anyone who watched deron knew he was a legit point guard.
you say henderson is a undersized 2 yet hes 6'5 good athlete and nice reach..i dont think thats a undersized 2 and right now jru is a sg who teams are hoping can make the transition to the pg...some one said something about delonte west not playing point...in highschool at elenor roosevelt in maryland he played pg most of the time so he has played some pg..but yea hes a combo guard and thats pretty much how i see jru panning out best case senerio..and like someone else said if he had confidence problems at ucla where the competetion is alot lower then whatever team he goes to then just imagin how his confidence is gonna be when he gets to the nba..some one else said something about looking at him he can tell. he has that drive to get better..lol..his drive doesnt look anymore better then just about ever other player out there i seen this year..it doesnt stand out..also the difference between these other guys yall keep saying didnt have good freshman years is that they came back to school and got better ..jru is gonn ahave a hard time getting better in game situations then he would have at ucla because hes gonna play alot less..plus he wasnt good at everything as someone noted and bad at nothing..he wasnt that good of a shooter and pretty average at everything( looked at the draft express comparision thing of other players..he was pretty average