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caray12
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It seem like on this site there are a lot of fans that gravitate towards these basketball attributes......

● Shooting

● Ball handling

● Potential

● Scoring

● Shot blocking

●Athleticism

And yall fail to realize that's not all of basketball. Yall fail to understand these basketball attributes.....

● Defense

● Winning

● Passing

● Basketball IQ

● Natural skills

● and more

Yall love the Kyrie Irving's, Damien Lillard's, Stephen Curry's of the world but yall fail to realize that their piss poor defenders. Kyrie Irving didn't make the playoffs or win. Damien Lillard and Kyrie Irving are poor passers. But yall gravitate towards them because they are fun to watch and they can shoot the ball. The same goes with Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, and LaMarcus Aldridge. None can play defense and you guys gravitate to them because they either super athletic and can dunk over a car ( Blake Griffin ) or can shoot the ball ( Kevin Love and LaMarcus Aldridge ). But yall don't see the players that play the game the right way, wins, play both ends of the game, and leads their team like Tony Parker, John Wall, Lance Stevenson, Mike Conley, Luol Deng, Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, and plenty more. It seems most of yall just see the box scores and advanced metrics and determine who is the better player and not watch the game and judge on the eye test.

Let me use Kyrie Irving as an example. He didn't win anything in the NBA, he don't player defense pretty well, and people still believe he's a top 5 point guard. Yall make excuses for him like he didn't make the playoffs with a stacked team last year. Unlike what John Wall did. John Wall led his team to the playoffs, he plays both ends of the court, he leads his team, he's unselfish, and he's a fantastic passer. But nobody take that for a grain of salt. Yall brushes off that he led his team as the lead man to the playoffs and won a playoff series, that he plays both ends of the court, and he led the NBA in total assist. But yall focused on that he don't shoot the ball as well as yall might like.

It's useless making points of facts on here because all you people do is brush off facts and only care about their 3 point shooting statistics. It's like I'm to a wall when I stat facts on here. There's more to the game than being able to do fancy things on the court. And please grade/rate players on their all around play and not just for their offensive shooting games.


nick5354
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Lol at your comment about

Lol at your comment about cavs having a stacked team.

caray12
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They did

Before last season Cleveland fans were bragging about how they have a stacked team and going to be the 5th seed last year. All last year around this time you heard that their roster was better than the Wizards and other team that were projected to finish higher than them.

To me they did have and stacked roster with PG: Kyrie Irving, Jarrett Jack, SG: Dion Waiters, CJ Miles SF: Luol Deng (partial), Alonzo Gee PF: Tristan Thompson, Anthony Bennett C: Andy. V, Andrew Bynum ( partial ), Spencer Haws ( partial ). That roster was better than Charlotte, Washington, Atlanta, and Toronto. As much of a star player people perceive Kyrie Irving, he should make the playoffs with that team.

Stacked was a bad word to call them but their roster was better than half of the weak eastern conference playoff teams.

nick5354
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Did you even watch many Cavs

Did you even watch many Cavs games last season? Because I watched ALOT.

They had a very promising roster, with a lot of young talent and potential. But that is what it really was, potential. In hindsight they were probably always too young and inexperienced to live up to that top 5 hype. In reality with that group of such young picks, two #1s, two#4s and a range other 1sts and 2nds, they grow together and don't just jump from 20 wins to 45 wins. They were probably 2-3 seasons away from being top 3-5 in the east.

And to comment on your idea of a stacked list;

Jack was very disappointing. After such a good playoff series and year with GWS, he did not do as much as Cavs hoped, and in all honestly was plain bad.

Gee really regressed after a couple of good back to back seasons.

CJ was streaky as ever.

Deng did not look like he belonged. Just from the eye test he just didn't look like he had brought in to the team and I think all new he was only a rental, and played like it.

Why even list Bynum as a partial? He was really really awful. Risk did not pay off and that is that.

Hawes looked really good, and wish he stayed and got to play more with Kyrie, because with the limited games they had together they looked good.

In no way is that a stacked roster. More of a stacked roster in 2 seasons, when the young guys got more experience.

Also I don't want to be 'that' guy but they did have Mike Brown as coach, which did not help.

They have a lot more issues and problems, so it is just not about Kyrie who couldn't lead the team to the playoffs.

rfarrell85
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Cavs were horrible

As a Cavs fan I watched most of their games and they were not stacked.

-Bynum barely played
-Jack was disappointing
-Deng didn't try
-Bennett had one of the worst rookie seasons ever
-You failed to mention the great earl clark
-Tristan was so bad he decided to change shooting hands?!
-Mike Brown

Hawes was good for the short time he was a Cav and Miles did well for being a real teams 9-10th man

People knock Kyrie for low assists but I'm impressed he averaged 6 assists with what he had to work with. Lets see what Kyrie can do with real players around him.

caray12
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Still

Yall still had more talent than Washington, Toronto, Charlotte, and Atlanta. Talent alone they should've made the playoffs.

benny15
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if you think talent alone

if you think talent alone should get you to the play-offs, you feel to recognize what winning is about

caray12
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Listen

I just said they had the talent to get to the playoffs. I didn't say that's all they need. Cleveland fans been indicting that they had a worst roster than Washington after the season. But before the season they were saying they had the better roster than Washington.

Jr. ROXAS
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Actually, Kyrie has been

Actually, Kyrie has been getting A LOT of flack for being a poor defender over the course of one season. I mean, I don't if its just me but he went from one of the most liked and hyped players 2 years ago (Uncle Drew) to one of the most hated and criticized last season. I feel sorry for him really, having to go through all those false rumors, crtiticsm while having Mike Brown as your coach and Alonzo Gee and Earl Clark as your starting SFs.

Kyrie's defense gets criticized A WHOLE LOT more than John Wall's shooting, seriously. At least when talking about Wall's shooting, people aren't mad and back it up by saying he is constantly improving his jumpshot and it will be much better next year. In regards to Kyrie, negative comments like "Kyrie's the worst defensive PG in the game!!" or "Kyrie is overrated and lazy and egotistic and he doesn't have a winning mentality" sprout like wildfire. Give this guy a break, he is in his 3rd season. Wall' team was a laughing stock too for 3 seasons before they traded all their boneheads.

I am no Kyrie fanboy, Wall fanboy or anything, I just feel like Kyrie lost too much respect from people last season and he doesn't deserve it.

caray12
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Not on this site

I've been on this site for over 2 years now and on here they don't really talk about Kyrie Irving weaknesses. On other sites they may but I was only talking about this site.

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Man at the end of the day,

Man at the end of the day, people enjoy seeing exciting plays from exciting players. Its sort of natural to get more excited over a poster dunk from Blake Griffin than excited over a hook shot from Tim Duncan, unless you are the sort of person that really appreciates that sort of thing. So naturally lots of fans are going to gravitate towards the more "exciting" players because its simply natural to want to see and enjoy the exciting plays, or the somewhat rare plays such as good shooting forwards (Kevin Love and LaMarcus).

At the same time though, I am not a big time poster on this site but I read enough to know that there are lots of people on here that have big time respect for the players you said get ignored. And those same people arent going around saying that Steph Curry is an amazing defender. People know a players weakness man, especially when they are obvious as that, but the dude can shoot the ball crazy good and you have to give him love for that, nothing wrong there man.

The reason John Wall gets ridden hard about his jump shot is because thats the big time glaring hole in his game. If he gets that down then most people would agree that he is in conversation for top dog, and once he simply studies the game more and matures, could be the number one pg in the NBA, IF he gets a jumper and everything works out well. If a guy is one facet away from being a big time player, then yeah, people are going to focus on that facet, but John Wall is still respected for everything else he can do. Liken it to Usain Bolt. Guy has a weak start, but is still respect for being able to compensate for it and be the fastest sprinter. But the first weakness talked about is his start, its just how the world works man, doesnt mean people are hating on John Wall for what he has accomplished.

At the end of the day, its allgoods for people to have the players they enjoy and follow for whatever reasons, and everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and their own personal opinion weather other people agree with it or not. Just because I like to talk about Wiggins getting his head at the rim doesnt mean I automattically fail to understand defense and IQ.

caray12
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Respect your post.

I'm saying that every time I mention someone defense other people on this site people brush it off and say that they are lights out shooters. I grade and rank players based on their all around game and people on here seems to forget that defense is half the game and just because you are special offensively don't mean you get a pass defensively. Let me use John Wall as an example. I know he is a poor jump shooter but just because of that that don't mean he is not a top 5 point guard. I believe he's top 5 because he play both sides of the ball and he makes his teammates better. People on here say he's not a top 5 point guard because he's not a good shooter but they fail to realize his other skills and what other things he does on the court.

NZcoach
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And respect back.

When that does happen, it can suck, but if the player in question makes up for it overall or is in a system where it doesnt matter as much, then you still have to rank them based off that until you see different. Now dont get me wrong, John Wall can ball out and I like him as a player, I aint here to rank them all but based on his gifts and what he has done so far, definatly has the potential to be the best, but then again so do a few other players. If other people say he is top 5 just based on his lack of a jump shot at the moment then thats their call, but remember there are other things that couple bring other players ahead of him. Overall, a more well rounded player could be better than him, or 5 other more well rounded players could be. Its each to their own and everyone will see something different. Some other guard could be worse than John Wall in every area except his jump shot, but if he is only a little bit worse than John in the other areas, but is much better than him with his jumper, then overall he could still turn out as the better, more well rounder player. Thats just an example though.

Like I said, I aint here to rank them all and such, and if you think John Wall is top 5 then respect for having your opinion and sticking to it. Just maybe dont be too harsh in saying that people who care enough about basketball and watch enough of it to make an account on a basketball site disregard other obvious facets of the game.

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Aldridge is not a piss poor

Aldridge is not a piss poor defender at all and Griffin was the 3rd best player in the NBA this year. Even with his piss poor defense he led the Clippers to some awesome record when Chris Paul was out. Poor examples.

caray12
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Anthony Davis

LaMarcus Aldridge may not be a piss poor defender but he still a below average defender. Blake Griffin came in third in MVP voting but that doesn't mean he's the 3rd best player in the NBA. I like rating player based on half offense and glad defense and if players are poor on the other end I would put the player that plays both end exceptional above the. I say Anthony Davis is the best power forward because he's great offensively and is great defensively. Anthony Davis is better all around then all the other power forwards in the NBA. Those examples I made for Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, and LaMarcus Aldridge is to indicate why they aren't the best power forward and why Anthony Davis is the best power forward in the league.

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I didn't bring up Blake being

I didn't bring up Blake being third in MVP voting, you did. I said he was the third best plyer in the NBA last season, which he was. It's ironic as hell you say Anthony Davis is better then him yet completely neglect the fact the Davis' defense has been MASSIVELY overrated his firt two years (much like Serge Ibaka) because he's a great shot-blocker. I've seen so many defensive stats Davis hasn't done well in, including a fairly important one...rim protection (he wasn't even top 20 at his position I believe). It's not like he's even been great by the eye test either. He's been a decent defender overall, but a fantastic weakside rim protector and is somehow confused for a great defender. I have no doubts he's going to be one, but he's not even close yet which completely contradicts your entire post. I'm guessing you are going off guy's reps more then how they actually are.

caray12
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Nope

I'm not going off of reps I'm going off of the eye test. I watched most of the Pelicans games last year and all against elite talent. I seen him go against LaMarcus Aldridge and he made him take about 30 shots to get 28 points. I seen him go against Kevin Love and he did the same thing against him. Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin been fairly equal when they faced off last year. When he went up against Pau Gasol he made him look like a bench player. I don't know why you bring up rim protection because that's not all defense. He's been great at pick and roll coverage, post defense, and shot blocking. There were other games when he shut his opponents down like the first game of the season against David West, when he shut down both Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph when he faced them both. His defense is not overrated because he makes a major impact when he on the court when he collects steals when on pick and roll coverage, when he gets blocks on MAN 2 MAN defense, and when he collects blocks on weak side defense. He makes an impact when he's on the court with no help by him.

You know you only said Blake Griffin was the 3rd best player is because they voted him the 3rd best player in the MVP voting Chris Paul is better than Blake Griffin and so is Anthony Davis.

Do some research first buddy.

Hale
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All I'm going to say is

All I'm going to say is you're so wrong here that it's not worth a response. Rethink the way you watch basketball.

caray12
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How?

You said Anthony Davis is an overrated defender and he's clearly not. You must not watch basketball if you believe he's not as good as a defender. I backed my opinion up with straight fact and you didn't so you need to watch basketball.

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I think instead of Y'all, you

I think instead of Y'all, you should use Y'some (sorry, haha), because like NZcoach implied there are a great deal of people that realize there's more to the game than watching a mix tape. Sure, there are people on here who fall in love with the next high school dunker before they've seen him play in a game, and physical prowess and athleticism can be misleading and sometimes mesmorizing to even just about everyone.

The NBA has become very specialist heavy these days and I think that kind of system can greatly bump up someone's value, despite them not being a complete player. That kind of emphasis about being great at one or two things can increase someone's role on a team and overall perception. Things get overlooked because of what they do well is what they are being asked to do on the court.

Coaches know that a lot of shooting specialists are poor defenders, so they pair them with linups where the guy next to them can make up for it, and they run defensive schemes which also help any shortcomings, but at the end of the day, the shooter is being brought in to shoot, and if he's sucessful at it, he's doing exactly what the coach and team wanted and needed him to accomplish.

I love the overall player, the guy who has a knack for finding the open man despite not being a point guard, the guy who dives in the stands to save a possession, or as someone who watched a lot of ball in the 90's the fading back to the basket game, and the mid-range games that most centers had in the past. Still, I do feel the current state of the game can indeed place more value on non-complete players who are elite at what they do, when the kind of jack of all trades, master of none have a harder time finding work. In a way...it's always been there....In his prime...Dennis Rodman averaged 15 boards a game and 5 points and Brian Grant averaged 10 and 7 most of his career, both were smart players, but at the end of the day do you want the guy who's kind of good at everything? Or do you want the guy who's awesome at 1 or 2 things? There's a lot of strategy on the court, and in assembling a roster, and most of the time being awesome at a few things wins out.

I see your point, but I will say the game rewards specialists, especially when cerebral coaches are involved. I can't speak for everyone on this site, but I can speak for myself, and as much as I love the complete player ( in a perfect world they'd all be, and if you talk to some old timers, they wall were back in the day, haha ) still, the specialist can out weight the overall player. It goes both ways, some of the traits you mentioned can vault someone's value...elite intagables, like Joakim Noah, put him ahead many of his peers.

I may have gone a bit off topic, and verging on a rant, but I just don't think when arguing a player's impact that the most well rounded guy always wins out.

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Agreed Joe Wolf , all of this

Agreed Joe Wolf , all of this "y'all" and "you people" stuff is making you sound quite ignorant and is taking away any credibility from your posts buddy.

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I certainly value defence and

I certainly value defence and basketball IQ in a player's abilities. Of course a younger player just entering the NBA is likely to have a game based more on athletic ability and maybe size. I would not expect a 19 year old to have the basketball IQ of an established player but I would expect the players to be willing to learn.

Often it is the players who are not blessed with the greatest physical tools or natural ability who really knuckle down and try to make the most of what talent they have or find a niche where they can fit into the NBA. The flipside is sometimes players who could dominate in HS and even college due to their athletic ability and natural talent may struggle in the NBA when they come up against older, stronger, much more wiley ( knowledgeable) players and these players sometimes seem to lack the desire to overcome these odds.

Natural talent will get a player so far, the likes of Shaq, KD, Tim Duncan, Kobe, LBJ etc all elite players from an early age with various attributes of size, skill, speed but all these guys had to refine their game and learn to have the careers they had/are having.

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Meh...

I'm the type of person that believes defense is very important. With that said, what beat great defense? Great offense...

I personally think Kyrie is better than John Wall. I think John's defense is overrated and his "passing" isn't mind blowing... He make simple passes, just drive and kicks... What really impressed me about him is his ability to shoot 60% inside the paint last year... That's on par with LeBron James... But it could also be said, Trevor Ariza and Brad Beal spread the floor out for him too... I think before we make any claims on just how legit Wall and the Wizards are, we should at least see what they do next season... Remember, they were one season removed from being a lottery team that had the #3 pick... One season where everyone played lights out might not be something you should bet the house on... The Wizards and the Suns are 2 teams for me where almost every player on the roster had near career years... It's hard for me to trust any team like that in one season...

Another thing... Name me 5 of the top 10 PG's of all time that could lock their man up... Even when hand checking was legal, PG's weren't "defensive" guys... Yea they get steals, but so did Allen Iverson and no one thought he was an elite defender...

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I think John Wall doesn't get

I think John Wall doesn't get enough credit. I happen to think that John Wall will be a top ten player in the NBA this season. I would even go as far as to say top 5. Wall works on his game and doesn't get the credit that Kyrie, Lillard or Curry get. Wall gets it done on both ends. I would wonder what would happen if John Wall and Anthony Davis ended up on the same team because that would be an entertaining point guard to power forward duo to watch.

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John Wall's half-court

John Wall's half-court decision making is questionable. Not just with his turnovers, but also his shot selection.

Wall attempted 527 mid-range shots last season, which was ranked 6th in the entire league... Problem is he only made 36.6%.

He was even worse shooting off of the dribble... He averaged 8.9 shots per game off of the dribble (2 from three-point range), which was ranked 2nd behind Stephen Curry. Yes... He took more shots off of the dribble than the Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony and Paul George... Yet he only made 34% of those shots.

Simply put... You have to wonder why he's taking so many of those shots when he's one of the league's best players when it comes to finishing around the rim, where he made 64.4% of his shots.

Other than getting out in transition, Wall still has a ton of work to do. Defensively as well. Just because he makes plays based on his athleticism, doesn't mean he's a great defender.

Some people overrate him significantly on this site.

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